Making Change Happen with Sales Teams, featuring Doug Davidoff [HubHeroes, EP87]

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It's time to unite and activate your powers before we begin. No, no, no. Not doing that. There's no need for that. Devin is not here. Heck, Max, we've been abandoned by Devin. We miss him. We love you, bro. We can't wait till you're back. Max will be probably joining us partway through this because life be life thing, but I'm super excited because my friend is here. Ladies and gentlemen, make sure you gather around as we welcome a true maestro of business growth to the Hub Heroes podcast. Today we're thrilled to introduce Doug Davidoff, the brilliant mind behind Lift Enablement. With over two decades of experience, Doug has been the guiding force for countless companies, helping them scale to new heights and achieve phenomenal success. He's an acclaimed author, a sought after advisor. Heck, he's even been an inbound speaker side by side with me as we battled it out. And of course, Doug, you know I won. And dynamic thought leader in the world of business enablement. Get ready for an insightful conversation today packed with wisdom from one of us. We'll figure out how this goes and actionable strategies. Ladies and gentlemen, please join us in welcoming Doug David. Doug, how the heck you doing, brother?

I am good. I'm good. I'm psyched to be here. You're the introduction. I was looking around for who the guest was.

My dude.

It's me, actually. Just.

Yeah. Oh, I was going to say Liz. That's where the wisdom is definitely coming from. There's no question about that. And I'm glad it gets you everywhere. I'm glad to see that my reputation and mannerism continues to stand up. If you want to clear the room, just bring Doug on because you see, we got no Max, we got no Devin. My work here is done.

I love it. You know, George, you know what else I love about that? I love how you took my line in the outline of George Intro Doug here.

Yeah.

And just like, man, you are. You are stellar at stage direction.

I really appreciate listen I may or may not have done some emceeing along the way, some events, and so as soon as I saw Intro Dope Human to Podcast, I knew exactly what to do. Liz. Exactly.

Well, I just want to know, do you ever remember the movie Along Came Polly and you had Philip Seymour Hoffman with the E. Entertainment crew following him, etc. I'm like, George, could you just, like, accompany me before I go anywhere and just, like, let people know before I walk into the room that. That, like, I'm ready.

I'll be the guy with, like, the big trumpet, ladies and gentlemen.

I'll just be the personality hire here. Wrangling people, that's just my job.

There you go.

That's what I do. Professional wrangler in. In fact, speaking of wrangling, gentlemen, I want to get down to business because, Doug, we don't just have you here because we love you. Although that is a big reason. Plus, again, the aforementioned cap, we have very specific topic we need to discuss today, and that is making change happen within sales teams. So I'm going to read a few quotes that I want to throw out here that may or may not be inspired by true events. Getting our sales team to change anything about what they do is like pulling teeth. Good luck trying to get sales on board with that new initiative of yours. Look, the sales team, they're just set in their ways. Don't just, just don't get. Don't get your hopes up. I know I'm not the only one who's overheard folks in marketing or on other teams talk like this about sales teams. There's this stereotype that paints people in sales as these resistant little butt heads who are anti progress, anti teamwork, anti forward movement. Like, anytime you want to do something fun with technology or like trying to innovate says that. No, it's worst. And I will. I'm not saying this pointing fingers because I used to be one of these people many moons ago. So one day when I was still working at Impact, I had been the content strategist on the marketing team. The VP of Sales at the time, Tom Diicipio, said, Liz, you've been doing such an incredible job. And like, yay, thank you. That's awesome. He says, so we'd like you to come be the dedicated sales content strategist for the sales team. And George, as you know, I'm really good at keeping my filter on my mouth. And Tom will validate this story. If you know him, he will validate it. I blurted out without thinking, am I being Punished. And that was probably the most transformative nine months of my entire life career. It changed completely how I think about sales and how I think about sales teams and kind of understanding where they're coming from. So what we're going to be talking about today is digging into this. Are these stereotypes true or is there a deeper and more nuanced story here? What's actually happening between sales and other teams, and what are the changes we should all be looking at together? Now to start off this conversation, Doug, I actually want to call back to. I want you to take us to the 80,000 foot view of what's happening right now with all of us before we get into the sales specific piece. Because when you and I spoke in preparation for this episode, you painted an incredibly vivid picture of the challenges all teams are facing within organizations right now with everything that's happening, whether that's economic or technology, and, and why it matters to this conversation. So can you start us there? Paint that picture for us?

Yeah. I just wanted to say something before I get into it, which is if you think what you said that marketers say about salespeople is bad, you should hear what salespeople say about.

They said it back to my face, so I got it right back to me.

I'm not talking about what salespeople say to marketers. I'm talking about what salespeople. That's what I am talking about, Max. That is what right there.

Look, I've had no time to read.

It yet, but it's on my desk every day. What's up, baby?

Go ahead, Doug.

Well, Max just brought up my favorite topic. Your book. That's right. Exactly. Yeah. So. So, you know, if we take a step back and we think about what's going on in the world today, I don't know about you all, but I'm tired. Just, just standing around is just exhausting. You know, I had a coach early in my career who taught me. He said, doug, every decision somebody makes is the representation of their prediction of the future, Right? It's their bet on the future. So when I feel good, I make decisions, I'm moving forward. I buy a new car, buy a new boat, whatever it might be. I'm feeling good, things are going on, right? And so that's how I know I'm confident. And that's why consumer confidence, you know, is. Is so crucially important. And even though, you know, we. We live Primarily in a B2B world, you tell me what's going on with the consumer, I can tell you a lot about what else is happening. And, and the difficulty is I think it was Gary Vaynerchuk who's gotten credited for if, if content, if content is king, then context is God. And if we think about context, there is none. Today the, the, the proverbial checkerboard has been taken up and thrown into, you know, the sky. And we're all trying to figure out what are the rules. You see this in a lot of places. First off, we've had at least three once in a generation events in the last 20 years, right? And, and the last four years. I have never seen a transformation of the world we live in like we've seen in the last four years. We went from a pandemic that was supposed to wipe out everything that ended up creating massive amounts of demand. I don't mean to get overly geeky here, but put massive money into the market. We saw, you know, the world quote unquote, changed. I don't know if you guys look at any of these economic charts, but, but literally if you're offline, you can, you, you know exactly when the pandemic started because there was a drop down. But now, you know, roughly four years later, we're back to the place we were in terms of what the trend was going. By the way, if you were online, you know what day the pandemic started because there was a massive uptick and we're back down to those trends. So like all this change that happened, we've seen a reversion to the mean. But the thing that doesn't get enough credit for, for, for why we're in this place where, and we call it the macroeconomic environment and what's happening, et cetera, is we went from money literally being free, zero interest rate policies that basically meant if you were a business and you weren't spending money, you were being foolish, you had to spend money to now money costs something, which has radically changed how our business is valued. What's happening? So whether you're a public company, a private company, whether you're seeking funding, you don't know what winning is anymore. And that's, that's impacting you in whatever company you're in. What's the game that they're playing? Where are you going? And even more so, what's happening with your customer. I have never seen a market, and I've been selling for 30 years. I have never seen a market that it is as disrupted and difficult as this market. The Great Recession was hard. It was bad. Everything was bad. We're not really I mean if you look at the economy, we're not in a bad economy, but it's operating very much like a bad economy. And when you're the salesperson, it's your responsibility to make sense of that and it's really hard to do that. So, so you're, you're already in this environment of just massive, massive disruption. And I think that's what's, what's kind of taking that. And by the way, the person that, that impacts more than anybody else is, is the salesperson. It impacts their comp, it impacts their vacation schedule, it impacts their self image. All of those things are going on because they're dealing at the individual conversation by conversation by conversation.

George, talk to me a bit. What are. Because you spend a lot of time with organizations, whether you're especially in a training capacity and onboarding capacity, not just now, obviously as the owner of Psychic Strategies, but then this is something you've been doing for, for over a decade. Have you been hearing or seeing what Doug is talking about mirrored in the interactions you're having with sales teams currently?

I mean, I have to say, without a doubt, it definitely has been very interesting to watch how the humans have been acting over the last four years. But even I would say there's, there's light indications before but stronger indications during the time that Doug's talking about where it almost feels like I'll use the word scrambling. And I think they're scrambling to figure out what's going to work. They're scrambling to understand what tools to use. They're scrambling to keep up with the knowledge of everything that's changing. I mean, what's amazing is Doug did that entire section and we didn't even talk about AI and what that is actually doing in inside of sales teams and inside of organizations and the next level of like. And again, not to get weird or funky or political, but let's keep them confused, let's keep like, let's get them on their hamster wheel. And so what's fun when we engage with sales teams is we usually find one of two things are happening. There's usually a 60 to 70% of the sales team that is bought in, ready to rock and roll, wants to learn because they're like Doug said t of the rat race and the scrambling and the like, constant like, ah, like feel in their life. And so they're like heads down, bought in. And we're training them on HubSpot, the tools, how to buy back their time, how to optimize what it's going to do to help them sell more. Because, by the way, if they sell more, more of that money's in their pocket. If more of that money's in their pocket, their family's blessed. If their family's best blessed, they're not stressed. And a lot of what Doug talks about kind of changes and goes away. But there's. There's this portion that. And I can't wait for Doug to talk about this. There's this portion that we've always found that for some unknown reason. And it's hard for me because I'm a. I'm a person who loves to pivot. I've been called a transition specialist through my career. But there's this portion of the sales team or the humans who have their heels in the dirt and they're holding on to cement weighted ropes, and they're like, I love my spreadsheet. I like the old system. Can we build the old system in.

Literally have a client who talks to us on a regular basis about that spreadsheet? He will never.

I'm like, let go of.

He's so proud of it. It's so aggressively colored.

I'm like, please help me right now. I'm like, I'm good. And. And I don't. You know, I don't. That's part of this conversation. I want to understand, like, how do we. How do we help that portion of the sales team move forward? Is it worth it, Doug? Doug always surprises me with his answers. I'll never forget one time we having a conversation about sales and marketing alignment. He's like, they shouldn't be aligned. Shut up. And I'm like, wait, what? So. So I. So I can't wait here. Like, you remember that, Max?

Yeah.

By the way, I don't know if you know that, Max. Doug and I and Remington and then Julie for a while did a podcast together when I was back at Impulse Creative. So it's not the.

I refuse to accept that there was podcasting before there was okay. In that imaginary world.

So this is the thing. Like, I want to know how to impact that 40% to get them moving. And I want to really be able to understand that 60% that is bought in is. Are there things that we or the listeners could be doing to even expedite their buy in and accept accelerate where they're headed faster and almost use them as the ability to entice the folks who have their feet in the ground? But that's. Historically, that's what we've been seeing.

Max, what about you? I know you have sales team thoughts.

I mean, he came in with a book. Dang gone.

Yeah, dude. You came in with the book. Revox. God.

Actually, isn't that your hat, Max? I think you'd be coming in with closed One city.

Where can people get those?

Just another. This is just another one of the many beautiful items we have available on CloseOneCity.com.

There we go.

I believe a little. Someone just sent something to you too.

Do you like the reciprocal?

I love it.

It's amazing.

I didn't get that. Wait, I'll go get a hat. I only have one hat, but it's. Hold on, I'll go.

Is it. I can't wait to see what happens here.

It's actually. It's just.

But, Liz, before you go get your hat, what should we be talking about? As the resident cat, I just asked. Oh.

Oh, I missed. Well, I just. I just. I just heard. What about you? I don't know what the question was that prompted these two guys going off before I got here, because I got.

Here from having a take before Mac.

No, I was. So I wanted to get your take. Based on your experience with sales teams, what you're seeing in terms of their resistance and whether or not you're hearing what Doug is talking about with them.

Well, resistance. I mean, resistance to. To what? To change?

Yes.

I don't know. I mean, my. My sales. My experience on sales teams has been so weird, and I think my ability to perceive what's going on with them is also very weird, because in all the sales roles that I've been in, I can't quite tell that if I've. That I can't quite tell if I've ever been able to, like, put myself in the shoes of someone who really, you know, cares about a quota and thinks very tactically about selling. Because for any of the selling roles I've ever been in, it's always. It's always been because, like, I love the product so much, and I just love talking about it, and I wish everyone would get it. And it was never through the guise of someone who. Not the guys. Through the. Through the lens of someone who's, like, doing it, you know, for a job, for the quota, for the this, for the that. I tend to get very invested emotionally in the companies that I work for. So I think it kind of, like, it puts blinders on me, I think, to be able to get into the shoes of a salesperson, you know, to kind of understand why they'd be so resistant to change. I think I Have a. I mean, to be honest with you, like, why would you want to change if what you've been doing is working? Or at least you're perceiving that it's been working. Right? Especially for someone who's been doing sales for a long time, right? And they have their process down and they have their. You know, they. They have what works for them, whether it's their tools or their tactics, their strategies or their. Their technology that they like to use or don't like to use, for that matter. Right? You know, you gotta. You gotta remember all that stuff has kind of contributed to their livelihood for that long. And, like, why change it if it's gonna shake that up or put that at risk? Right? So I can empathize with salespeople that, you know, I. I had a coaching client that was like, oh, you know, we've got this. This sales guy. He's kind of old school, and he doesn't really like, you know, using the CRM and this and that. And I'm just like, well, I mean, can you. Can you blame him for, like, wanting to do the job the way he wants to do the job? Right? Like, you don't have to force stuff on him. You know what I mean? So I have a lot of empathy for folks because, again, you know, I mean, when you're. When you're in sales and you've.

You've.

You've figured out something that works for you, why would you want to change it unless you see a big reason to need to change it, Right?

But whale.

I don't know.

It's.

It's hard for me to.

Whale.

Yeah. It's hard for me to really get inside of their, you know, get inside their brains. Because I look at sales, I think, in a, you know, a more lofty, you know, weirder way that I don't think I ever got quite in this right mindset of, like, a seller, you know, I don't know.

Okay, so we'll get back to Doug in a second, but I'm about to lose my dang mind right now. Because. Because here's the. Because here's the deal. When I hear Max and I love you, bro. You know, I love you to, like, the core of my heart, but when I hear you or some other people saying, why would you want to change? Like, I live so much in this 1% better each and every day mentality and realizing, why would I rest on my laurels? Why would I think yesterday was the best day ever when tomorrow can be even better? And, like, And I think this is why I have such an issue with that 40% that I was talking about. Because it's like, guy, gal, whoever the heck you are, like, sure, you sold $50,000 last month. Guess what? Next month you might sell a hundred and fifty thousand dollars. But you're gonna have to make some change because to get to where you want to go, you got to do different things than what got you where you're at and. Okay, I'm gonna just shut up. Let's. Let's go back to Doug.

Max. Max, you made. You made inbound dad mad.

I'm not mad.

He's gonna.

I'll just pass.

He's just disappointed. You're just disappointed.

I'm not disappointed.

I'm saying. But, But George, what I'm saying is, is, is, is I would think that someone who's resistant to change might not have that same motivation because maybe they've been doing it for a while and they're comfortable.

Here's Doug. He's coming in.

I don't know. Figure it out on my own. I'm trying to figure it out my own. I have no clue.

We're, we're, we're talking, like, sales. Being resistant to change is, is an unusual, Is a not normal thing in a business. Show me an operations team. Show me a finance team. Show me. I mean, there's a whole world. I mean, if you think, if you think branding strives to make the world complicated, to justify high advisory fees, you should take a look at the change management industry, right? So, so let's not, let's not put salespeople in this bucket of. They're somehow this unique set of resistors to what's going on. And actually, let's also acknowledge that what the vast majority of businesses do is they throw salespeople out into the world with no maps, no process, no clarity. I mean, it's much true management, right? Throw them in the dark and from time to time pour some shit on them and let's see how they grow, right? I mean, that's how far too many. I mean, if we ran our manufacturing process the way we run sales processes, the way we run sales organizations, no business would succeed at doing anything. So let's just. I mean, I just want to balance this out. That change is hard, yet at the same time, here's what I hear. I hear constantly, salespeople are resistant to change. And then right after that, I hear they never do the same thing twice. Everything's always different, right? I'm. I'm listening to this podcast about Lost. About the show Lost.

Oh, I love that.

About how. How. How Damon Lindelof.

Lindelof and Carlton cues.

Yeah, yeah. But how Damon Lindelof was, like, being asked, you know, on one hand, they were like, do you have a plan for this? It's like every fan wants us to say, yes. We have an absolute plan. We know exactly where this is going. Except right after that, they say, well, wait, are you listening to what we're saying? Are you. Are you taking our suggestion? So it's like when you get asked that question, you're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't. Right? So. So when we talk about change, what we're really saying. And let me just ask you. What we're really saying is salespeople are resistant to changing the way we want them to change.

Interesting. First of all, before we. Let's take a hot break from this note to self, never put Doug and Liz on a podcast together, because it'll be movie and TV names and trivia being thrown amongst the entire episode.

So Doug is our new co host. Doug, thank you. Welcome.

God forbid. God forbid we make the content relatable, George.

That's right, baby.

Don't worry. I'll get some baseball metaphors.

Oh, there we go.

Let's talk about let Teddy win. That was a great campaign. It was a great campaign. That's right. George. You all right, bud? Is that hissing noise. Your soul is slowly escaping from your body?

I was just breathing. Like, slow breathing. I'm good.

Speaking of breathing, let's bring it back to sales for a moment, shall we?

Let me ask you a question. Anybody. I. I do not do this, but any. Anybody like to work with tools? Carpenters? I would.

I would probably. That's a hazard. I'm a hazard without tools.

How. How would your carpenter, who's got his favorite hammer or her favorite hammer, how would. How would they react if I say, here, I got a. I got a new hammer for you. Gotta. You gotta give me your. Give me your favorite tool.

Well, but here's the thing.

We'd probably be.

Well, well, but wait. Because if it was the guy who was swinging a hammer at the same time that they came out with the air hammer, and he knew that he could save his elbow, and he knew that he could save his shoulder, but he was resistant to use that new hammer, that actually did the job easier for him, AKA a CRM, AKA a process, AKA automation, then I would ask you, like, why are you doing the same old thing with the Hammer, when there is a new hammer that you could be using, that saves your body and saves you time.

So do you think this is the first time that sales rep that you're claiming to be resistant to change, do you think this is the first time they've been told that here's this new technology that will solve your problems, that will take care of what that might be happened to the sales team that.

Might be the problem? No, it probably isn't.

Right. And by the way, here's something else that I can tell you, like if you want to get down to it, and I will say that salespeople are not anywhere near as motivated by quota as we think they are motivated by quota. And if we have time, I'll get into that.

Okay?

But nobody goes on P Club and nobody goes on Presidents. I'm sorry, Nobody goes on P Club and nobody gets fired because of their adoption or lack of adoption utilization or lack of utilization of the CRM. They do go to P Club or get fired based on how much business did they close. So, so when you talk to me, see, what I would say, George, is you took it in the wrong order. You said, here's this new machine with this automation, with this process, with this. And it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa. That's all about you talk to me about, where's my gap? Help me understand why am I not getting the outcomes that I need to get. Why are we changing to begin with? How is the world change like? We all live in the world of change. And by the way, we're unique because we thrive in the world of change. Yeah, right. Humans aren't designed. I'm sorry, I don't have that sound effect for you. Yeah, but humans aren't designed to thrive and change. Right?

We're.

We're biologically programmed. We're biochemically programmed to seek what we're like. We seek tribes. By the way, Max, the interesting thing about what you said, so I actually think you got it in reverse. The greater the confidence, the more willing you'll see the change. The willingness to change is a sign of confidence. So the sales rep who is confident in what, in what is working, the sales rep who understands how am I achieving quota. You show me a hitter who studies the science of hitting. I will show you somebody who is constantly tweaking and adjusting their swing because of what you talked about. You show me someone who's worried about hitting quota. You someone. You show me someone who, who doesn't understand. But by the way, in sales, and I've lived this for 30 years. I mean, and I love it. Every month, you start off at zero. Every year, you start off at zero. I have a ritual that I've done for 25 years. My last day of production, I print my. My report. And my first day of production, I print my report. Here's what I did, and I go back to zero. But, man, that's also scary. Accountants don't go back to zero.

Right.

And so we're in this environment that at any moment change the interest rates. Everything changes. Yeah, Right. Things completely outside of my control change. You show me somebody who is worried about the future, I'll show you somebody who resists change. So I don't think it's 60, 40. I don't think there's that much difference between the 60 and the 40. I think there's a difference in perspective, in the context. So spend less time talking about the thing, spend less time talking about the solution, and spend more time facilitating an understanding of the context. Change my context, you'll change my behavior.

I love it. Les, do you see why I was like, immediately we have to have Doug on for this episode?

Oh, 100%. But before we move off of this, George, I've been watching you just kind of absorb.

Yeah.

And take in everything that Doug has been saying. I want to get your reaction.

I love absorbing Doug.

It's the best.

Okay, wait, we're live on YouTube. You can't say things like that now. You can.

We're live on YouTube and LinkedIn.

Oh.

Dude, you're gonna get us canceled.

Let it be known. Let it be. No, you know what? No, hold on. We need to. We need to note this for the record. The first person to swear on this pod when we are live is not now. Will I say something wildly inappropriate later?

Yeah.

90 chance.

Yeah, it's 90. Yeah.

But let's keep going. Keep going.

Thanks, Max.

Well, and you can thank Riverside because they gave me new toys and I wanted to play in test because I'm a marketer, but there you go.

I do. I do think I'm. I do think this is the first time I've been on a live stream.

All right, well, there you go. There you go. You're killing it, brother. You're killing. So it's funny, though. But let's talk about, like, I almost just. Yeah, let's be careful, Max. So here's the thing. Because I do it, I was literally sitting there absorbing what Doug was saying because I. I.

We not talk about absorbing anymore.

I passionately and actively want to know how to get better at this, because I know that if I can communicate and interact with sales teams in a way that is manufactured to get the most out of them and get them in a what we feel better direction or believe even is a better word, is a better direction for them and for the organization, and we can get past the hurdles of, like, everybody's changed it, like, every two years because nobody knows what the heck they're doing. And so I literally was just sitting there intently listening. Try to put the pieces of the matrix together in my own brain. Which, by the way, this is usually what happens, Liz, when I'm with Doug, like, literally. There was a conversation I had with Doug at a previous inbound where he broke my brain for about 14 days after the conversation that I had to try to unpack and put back together.

So, Doug, teach me your way.

No, do not. She's not allowed to know the dark side.

I'll just ask you about your feelings, George. That's my way.

Oh, geez. Moving on, back to sales.

Moving on, moving on. Okay, so I want to throw this question out to the group, no one in particular. What does getting buy in from sales teams look like to today?

Skip buying. Buying is the wrong place to go. It's the wrong.

See, that's the kind of stuff why everything. This is what I'm talking about.

Sorry, love. And Doug on the podcast.

You're making me look so good. I look like an angel right now. Ladies and gentlemen, for those of you just turning. And I am an angel. Max is. Is awful.

Well, no, because when you say buying, my brain's just going, oh, buying for what? And then Doug goes, skip it. And I'm like, holy, this is good. On a. Operating on a completely different level than I am. And I just want to listen.

Unless it's buy in for sandwiches, in which case I'm like, I'm bought in.

If it's. If it's Subway, if it's a panini, I'm there. Jersey Mike. I was on big fireside.

I was on vacation. I was on vacation when I was younger, and I was. It was when I was still golfing, and I decided, hey, you know what? I'll. I'll. Let's do a golf lesson before I play around in golf. So take some swings. I'm like, aren't you going to give me some tips? Which is like, no, let me just see you. Let me just see you hit a. Hit a few balls. So I take out my seven iron. It was the only iron that I could hit halfway decent. And I started. Started hitting the ball and I thought, oh, wow, he's gonna think I'm better than I am because I was hit. I felt like I was hitting the ball. Well, I'm probably. I probably hit 10 balls. And the process to me goes. I see what your problem is. Like, that's pretty presumptive. I've only hit 10 balls and I'm hitting them. Well, what do you mean, what my problem is? He said, the problem is you're trying to hit the ball. I looked at him like, there might be something wrong here, because I said to him, I'm like, I mean, call me crazy, but I thought that was the point of this game.

Oh, man.

He said, no, no, see, see, the problem is you think because you're trying. Because you're aiming at the ball. Basically, he said, you think that your swing ends when you hit the ball, right? What. What you need to do is you need to let the ball interrupt your swing. When I coach kids in baseball, first thing I did was I put him in the cage. Don't talk to me about what you do. Just. Just go out. Swing, swing. Okay, let's look at this. Here's what I want you to do. Let's do this. See, I want you to take an action. Sales is a participation sport. Sales is an action sport. I want you to do. By the way, this applies to non sales, too. I want you to do something with an expectation. So by the way, when I get resistance, when someone says, well, this is all well and good, but it doesn't work in my industry. It doesn't work with my customers. I'm like, okay, great, awesome. Here's what I need you to do. I need you to prove to me that it doesn't work. Prove to me it doesn't work. Do this a hundred times and come back. Because here's the thing, by the way, I'm. Sometimes I might even go, you know what? I'm. I'm. I'm with you. I'm not. But you got to understand, I'm like, I got to do this. I need you to demonstrate to me it doesn't work. So we take an action, we get a result. The result is either what we expected or something different than we expected. Now we've got experience. Now we can learn. Why did we get that result? What happened? What was different? We then apply that to the next action. When we talk about buy in, what we're doing is we're throwing theory out, we're throwing opinions out. We're saying, take my advice. I mean, please don't take this the wrong way, George. You're advising a sales team, the 40% of salespeople, they're trying to figure this stuff out. They've been doing it for 10, 20 years, five years, two years, whatever the number might be. And remember, the thing that's different about sales is every interaction is different. So they live in a world where every interaction is different. Now don't get me wrong, every interaction is 80 to 90% the same. But that's not what you, that's not where you get paid. That's not where you live in a sales world. So you come in and you're going to tell me how I need to change and if I have any self worth at all, I'm going to, I'm going to push back. What do you mean? Right, so, so let's just skip that. Let's, let's, let's create the context. Here's the issue, here's what we're seeing, here's why we're doing this. By the way, one of the things to do is be really clear what's staying the same because you've identified that there's something that's not working, there's something that's broken. We're going to change what's broken. But what they hear is you're going to change everything. What are the things that are working for me? Make it clear to me that the things that work for me will continue to work for me. And this is how we're going to address the things that aren't working so that I can have confidence. Because remember, every decision I make is a statement of my confidence about the future. My confidence is built on repetitions of what I believe as cause and effect. So help me have that confidence. Define it more by what isn't changing than what is changing. And, and you'll see less resistance. And by the way, resistance is okay. I'm not looking for followers, right? I'm, I'm not looking for you to convert. I'm looking to help optimize a business process which, which by the way, there is no one right way to do it. So that's the other thing that salespeople hear all the time, is I'm supposed to do it the way Bill does it, the way Jill does it. It's like, no, show me where I get to be me. At the end of the day, I'm the one that's putting my name on the promise. How can I have confidence in that?

Yeah.

And if you don't have resistance, you don't get any feedback as to why something's not working from the people who are boots on the ground doing the thing.

Right.

By the way, George and Max and Liz, who. Who have the best advocates in your life been on. On the ideas that you've put forth, I will bet you that a good percentage of them came from the people that were the most resistant initially.

George, I need to know what's going on behind that thinking face. Like, I absolutely have to know.

Yeah, no, it's. So, first of all, I'm a child, so I can't hear the word resistance without saying, you know, resistance is futile. So there's that. But anyway, hopefully somebody.

By the way, George, if you want a salesperson to change something, just tell them they're not allowed to.

Oh, well, there you go. Podcast is over, and then they'll change.

That's 100% true. Because salespeople, it sounds like, are just basically only children, which is what I am. Which is like, would you like me to not do something? Tell me to do it. Would you like me to do something? Tell me not to do it. Like, that's.

Yeah.

Liz 101.

So. So it's interesting, though, because where my brain was going when. When Doug was talking, it's funny, because what I think Doug does well is he. He's really good at making what you might have thought was complex, really simple. And. And what's funny is when we do have most of these conversations, it's like, and here's all these cool things that you can do these cool things with, and here's how they're gonna make your life easier and save you time. But the fact when Doug was like, so. So start by what's working for them, and I was like, oh, I feel stupid right now, because I don't know if I've ever asked a sales team so. Or started with the question, so tell me what's working for you in the sales process and just shut up and listen. I don't think I've ever done that. Now, I want to do that immediately with, like, the next sales team that I talk to and start there. Because what's interesting out of that is I should be able to diagnose what's not working, because I understand what you need. I understand, like, how the engine works, you know, and so I can. Oh, their carburetor's broke and the starter needs replaced. Okay. They need these. These two or three things. Strategies or tools. If I can just get them to plug that into the 80 or 90% that we can now say is working. And we're just going to mirror that then, then we get somewhere special pretty dang quick.

So George, the conversation where I broke your brain at inbound, if you think about that, you can, you, you can apply that to sales teams because the danger with what you said, 99% of the time, I wouldn't even comment on this. But because of this, the topic of the show, when you talked about a car, that's where you lose sales organizations and you lose connecting with those resistors.

And here's metaphors and analogies.

Well, a car is a closed system. A car is complicated. It is not complex. If I take this out and I fix this and I put it in, when I change the carburetor, it doesn't change everything else. When you're selling, you're at the center of a, of a series of complex ecosystems. You are in a system of system. When you change one thing, you change everything. And, and that's what a salesperson understands subconsciously. That's where you see the fear. That's where you see the resistance. And that's why calling out an understanding of what is working. Right. And by the way, also show the place where when we talk about process language, when we use process language, we talk about it in a very constraining manner. This, then this, then this, then this. Anyone that spent a second in a conversation, let alone a sales conversation, knows doesn't happen like that.

Right.

A, the, the process isn't linear. It's, it's a pinball machine. And I've got my way of doing it like, like George Yoricks. You're extraordinarily successful at being George much.

Why thanks.

I don't think you would be, I don't think you would be anywhere near as successful at being Doug.

No, I, I, I, I don't even come close to reading the amount of books that you read.

Wrong name for starters. I mean, but labeling's all off.

But I'm just saying, I'm just forget, forget the reading and everything else. I'm just saying the style, the approach. Right. And, and I like to think I'm pretty good at being Doug. Oh, you're great at being, I would do, I would be really ineffective at being George. So the other thing that we have to do is communicate how a strong centralized system frees the individual out the individuality by understanding the key milestone, by understanding the key points in a process. You're free in between as A matter of fact, you're even more free to be yourself. And. And what salespeople are hearing is the opposite. Right? That's what they're afraid of.

Yeah.

Because, by the way, most salespeople have been told most of their life, what's wrong with them.

Oh, see, now, that statement right there immediately makes me, like, sad. And. And actually, my. I. I don't want to swear like other people on this podcast, but. But.

Shots fired.

But, but.

But immediately I was like, well, that's a sucky place to live. In that realization that you just stated, I'm like, oh, I just got a bad feeling. Like, I wouldn't want to. I wouldn't want to be being told that I'm always doing something wrong.

Sales, you get rejected 90 of the. If you can. If you can get rejected 90 of the time, you're in the hall of Fame. I mean, we think baseball's hard. Baseball, you only have. You fail 70% of the time you're in the hall of Fame.

You.

You. You live. You hear all the pushback. You. You don't. You don't get the testimonial letters. Marketing gets the testimonial. You're. You're kind of like, content.

Content. I see the same thing I had to tell a client the other day because they were nervous about giving me feedback. Like, do you realize this is what I do all day, every day? I have never, ever, except maybe with George, like, once or twice, have I ever, ever, ever given a piece of content to somebody, and they're like, perfect. No notes. There's always maybe one or two things that needs to get tweaked. Now, maybe down the line, we get to that point, right? We get to that point of trust. We get. But it's. That's. That's. It's rejection Station, man.

Liz, I'm curious. When. When. When you get the no notes back. Like, I always think I want the no notes, but then someone says, oh, it looks fine. I'm like, you didn't even look at it, did you? You.

So I. So I get very anxious when somebody says no notes. And George has been on a couple of calls with me where somebody would say, yeah, it's great. I'm like, so you're saying it's great, but your face is saying an entirely different story. There are times where I get to a level of trust with a couple of clients where, yes, I will trust what they're saying. What I've often found is that if people are giving me a no that quickly they either do not know how to articulate what's actually wrong, it's just a gut feeling. Feeling. They do know how to articulate what's wrong, but they don't want to hurt my feelings because they think that I take it as a personal attack on my work and my credibility. And I'm like, no, we're just working toward the end goal of getting good content out the door. But you know, you misunderstood.

It's like you miss I said no notes.

No.

Yes. I just say, yeah, this is fine.

That's what I'm saying. Like, if they say no notes, I start wondering what's actually wrong. Because.

Right.

In most cases, I'm like, you're not telling me something you don't know what. How to tell me or you know what it is, but you don't want to hurt my fifi's. Like, it could be a range of reasons. So.

So here's something else to understand about salespeople, if you want to break through to them. Are you familiar with the book the E Myth? So the E Myth is a book about small business and the E Myth is the entrepreneur myth. The myth is most businesses are started by entrepreneurs. It's written by a guy named Michael Gerber. And his thesis, the thesis of the book is most businesses are not started by entrepreneurs. They're started by technicians who experienced an entrepreneurial seizure. His words, not mine. So they're. They're basically. Businesses are started by people who do what the business does. They look and they say, I can do this better. I can. I want to be my own boss, whatever the case may be. So what, what the book talks about is there's three types of people. There's the entrepreneur, all vision, lives out in the world of risk, change, etc. There's the manager who's got some son of a to him, very process oriented, very disciplined, very. The world is dominated by technicians. That's why I. That's why I picked on the carpenter and the hammer. I have my way of doing something right. I've come to understand my way. I know that my way is not the best way, but realize people are not motivated for the best way. What they're motivated for is the way that is least likely to not be the worst. Right. That's. That's how. By the way, that's what drives buying decisions. That's what drives. And so what you're dealing with, because salespeople speak the language of risk, because they're paid variable compensation, we think, oh, they're risk takers. We Say we say they're entrepreneurial. Some of them are. What. What the vast majority of them are is they're technicians. They have a way of doing something. They have not documented their way, they have not. They have not tangibilized their way, but they have a way of doing something. It's ambiguous. You come in and you say, we're going to change how you're doing it. And I go, huh? Best thing you can do, document the sales process. Forget without the CRM, but this is the first thing we do with companies is we go through and we map what's the flow of conversations from how do they gain interest to. They want us onto the bottom line. It has nothing to do with technology. There's no tech in it. We understand. How do you do what you do? Okay, here's where the breakdown occurs. Here's where the breakdown occurs. Hey, it looks like a lot of time is spent here. It doesn't seem like a lot of value there. Wouldn't you like to be able to spend more time here? Yeah. Okay, here's how we can help make that happen. And then the last thing that I would say is when you're dealing, when you're doing CRM, every company in the world should be launching their CRM two to four times per year. The other thing that we talk about, we look at CRM and we look at launching CRM as the finish line. And so we stuff it all in. We're like the parent at the baseball field saying, keep your weight back, keep your elbow up, head in. Hey, we're barking five instructions at one time. So we come in and we identify everything that's wrong. We're going to fix it. You can't fix more than one thing at a time. If you try to fix more than one thing at a time, you're overwhelming people. And that's why we're going to operate on this. So the clients that we work with, we're typically launching three to four times per year. By the way, that's the single best thing for adoption. It's like, hey, we've got some new toys for you. But it also means we're never done. And that means we launch this. Some of what we do works, some of what we doesn't do work. It feeds into that next piece. We work with larger organizations. That's why four times per year, you're never more than 90 days away from an overall fix. And now, because remember, as the sales rep, it's the next 90 days that matter for me. We call that the performance zone. I need to hit my number. What you want to do? I had, I had somebody who was funded early in, early in a. In Lift Imagine's career. He said I got fired because he loved my ideas. And what he said to me, he said, doug, here's the thing I love. I agree with you 100%. We need to do this. The problem is you're solving the problem that I have 18 months from now. If I don't get to this revenue in six months, I don't get my next tranche of money. If I don't get my next tranche of money, I don't have oxygen. I am dead. I realize that what I'm going to be doing for the next six months puts me in a weaker position for where I need to be in 18 months. But if I do. But if I. If I solve my 18 month problem, I'm dead in 6 months. Right? That timescale taught me. Whoa. I can't fix everything at one time. Like a lot of times we're trying to come in and fix something. They don't even have the foundation. Let's bring in the foundation. Then let's add the next piece. Then we add the next piece. Then we add the next piece. And we're in an ongoing continuous loop. And that's where transformations occur. Transformations occur when you look back and realize you transformed. Not when you go in saying, hey, we're going to transform everything.

Hear that B2B website copywriters. No more transforming in your headlines. Just like you can't call yourself a thought leader in your own bio. Okay, before I take us.

Hang on one second, Doug.

George, I wanted to ask you if you had any other questions.

No, I just want. Is it the E Myth Revisited? Is that the book that you.

Same thing. Yeah, that's the rewrite.

Okay. Because by the way, E Myth Revisited. E Myth Enterprise. E Myth Mastery. E Myth for H Vac, E Myth for Real Estate Agents. E Myth for Holy crap. It keeps on going anyway. But the original book to get is the E Myth Revisited. Okay.

And it's really the first third of the book where all the value is, everything else is franchise your business.

Okay?

Blah, blah, blah. It's.

Well, Doug, let me stay with you for a moment. Are there any other. We know that you are an avid reader, resource consumer. Are there any other books specifically or other resources you would recommend? Yeah, there you go.

It's that book right there. Is it that Max.

Maximus.

I talk in the book about the three zones of execution. Right. We always look at everything. It's the next 90 days. 90 days to 12 months. 12 months to 36 months. The 12 to 36 month, that's the transformation zone. That's the company and the sales organization we want to be. The next 90 days is the performance zone. We live by a mantra there. Don't mess with the performance zone. That's not actually our mantra. Right, but we're live, so I can't tell you what a real mantra is. Yeah, and then, and then, George, where we live, we live in the enablement zone. We're in that 90 day to 12 month zone that's enabling you to perform better. As I. When we show that to people, they now understand, okay, this is how things are connected. This is where that, that works. And suddenly this change isn't so threatening. The another book that I would recommend on, on the idea behind this is Team of Teams.

Oh, that's the great.

Yeah. Because we live in a system of systems.

George, while you're starts buying stuff on.

Amazon, you can always tell it's a good episode.

He's like, wait, hold on. I understand we need to drive the conversation forward, but could you speak closer to the mic, Doug, so I could type this into Amazon?

Yeah, add to cart. My, my audible account is just, it's ignorant. But whatever this is.

Why can I just point out, by the way, if you aren't watching this live on YouTube or in the community or on LinkedIn right now, you are missing the sweetest little baby puppy angel.

How old that.

Four months.

Oh boy. What a journey ahead of you. Oh, well. Yep. Not happy. Not happy.

Wait, is that the same dog who was wreaking havoc last week?

Oh yeah, but we love her.

The one that ate a tin can.

That's fine, it's fine. You know what if they, if you know what, if they weren't supposed to be edible, why do you make it food shaped? I'm just saying.

Oh, wow.

George, why don't you take us out? What are some of the big things you want people remembering from today's conversation other than what books should be in everybody's shopping cart?

Yeah, well, first of all, get the resources and definitely get Doug's book, because you just need to get Doug's book. And so the Liz, it's funny because, like, you know me, I like to be a little bit honest and a little bit transparent and I'm not willing to put myself out there, but I don't know if people are going to listen to this and be like me or be like you. Know have the same thoughts as me. But my big takeaway for this, for me is, man, I need to rethink almost everything that I'm doing from a communication standpoint to get sales teams to really change the things that they need to change to get the impact that they need to get versus what might be a well, this works for everybody scenario that I might have not on purpose, created in this HubSpot inbound echo chamber that I live in so that, like, rethink everything is one thing that I'll say that you may want to think of the, the other thing too is amazingly, as I'm listening to Doug, I feel like I broke my cardinal rule in this area because the more I heard Doug talk and the more I heard how Doug was communicating and the more I heard Doug's focuses, I realized Doug is focused on the human.

There we go.

Versus a sales rep. And we've kind of jokingly said things like butt head and other things, but we have to remember that they're just like us. They are humans. Not sales reps, not robots, not people who do things perfect, but they, they are, they're humans.

So your one takeaway for everybody today is when you think of this. Just rethink everything.

Rethink everything.

So all of it.

All of it.

Yeah, I can, Doug, I can simplify that to bite size. I think if, if, if I were to take one thing from this is spend more time and make sure, whether you're a manager or an implement, whatever the case may be, make sure you're asking each salesperson at least once a quarter, preferably once a month, what's working.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I really like that part when, like starting with that. Yeah, yeah, that what Doug said do that is.

Wait, I know we're supposed to end the episode.

It's okay.

Is that we would. So I, I, whatever I would do. Because it's so tough because like, when we talk about, like the buy in thing, you gotta remember I'm so HubSpot product brained that like all of my experience, like getting buy in from a sales team has been because my job was to get people to use this piece of software, right? So a lot of the times when I would go in to these, like, you know, they'd set it up, be like, all right, we're going to get the sales team, you know, on the, on a call and you're going to teach them how to use this thing, right? I hated being the guy that would come in and be like, all right, guys, here's how you're going to use this CRM. And I would always try to come in with the, you know, on their side of the table and it's just like, hey everybody, you have this awesome CRM thing that I think is like super great. But I want to frame this up in a way that is going to make it actually useful for you. And the way that I would always lead is I would say what sucks about doing your job right now? And I would try to hone in on those things that I knew the product could help with. Right. And go from that angle of like what's not working? Right. From a technology enablement standpoint. Right. But like that's kind of always how I would go. It's just like, what's not working for you and what's something that I can get you to see that, oh, this thing is actually going to be helpful for me. But I don't know how to tell you it's helpful unless I know that you have some kind of pain. Right. So I guess my question is when you say ask them what's working, is that juxtaposed to asking what's not working? Is there a reason you wouldn't ask that or is that part of the same thing you're getting at or. I don't know.

Yeah.

So something has to be broken to change. Right. The only, the only reason that people change is because not changing is more painful than changing.

Keep running into a wall. Yeah.

So. So now the thing is when it comes to change initiatives and especially change initiatives with sales organizations, the what is screwed up, what sucks about right now? Like we've got that covered. We do that, we do that. Well, so I'm not. And what you're doing, Max, at least what I'm hearing is you're, you're coming in for an event. And what I mean by event is it's a one off thing you're, you're introducing. It's either getting a conversation started or you know, here's this. That then is going to lead into.

Get them to adopt the CRM.

Yeah.

Right. And so what I'm saying is what you've got to do though is don't just show me how you're going to fix what's broken. Right. Because when, when that's all I hear, that gets me going. Right. But when that's all I hear, then what I worry about is, well, wait, you're going to change the stuff that I'm comfortable with you now, this isn't a conscious thing yeah, right. But it, but that's where the fear and that resistance comes from. What you're really saying is, look, we're going to take the parts that suck, we're going to fix those, we're going to make it easier for you to do the things that you like to do so you can do more of the things that you like to do. Right. In our change, when we get in, when George is halfway into the configuration and getting ready to launch, we've already covered that. Right. So we forget to talk about it. And then on an ongoing basis, we're really good at saying, oh, well, you should have done this. Right. Because that's the beautiful thing about, about analyzing sales calls, by the way. Remember, we're being told every day that AI is going to take our job. And then we're saying here we're listening to this call, see, you zagged when you should have zigged. And like, you know, that whole 2020 vision. Spend more time on an ongoing basis. Like if you were working with them regularly, hey, help me understand what's working. So I understand that in balance to what's not working. And that's where you'll get. And by the way, a rep that is resistant. Spend more time with them, say, hey, you know what, let's talk about what's working for you. Let's talk about what are the untouchables for you. Because remember, there's a hundred ways we can get this thing done.

Yeah.

Right. You don't have to do it this way. We just need this. We just need this to be the output.

Yeah. I think I always tried to be like, you know, how can you use this thing to enable the way you like to work better? Because who am I to come in here and tell you how you should like to work? Right.

When we train, so we turn to our trainers, they get a business process briefing before they get CRM configuration briefing.

Yeah.

So they understand, here's how the organization works. And then the other thing I'll share too is we train in user stories. So we do. Here's user story one. Here's the situation, right? And it's a full, complete process for whatever we're doing, we're typically going to. We typically roll out three to five user stories at a time. And now, and now as we bring the different features together, it's not this random feature and this random feature and, and this thing and this cool thing. It's. Here's, here's the problem that we had. Here's where it broke down here's how this is addressing it. And. And. But. Because if I have to think about how to use my CRM, my CRM is probably not configured correctly.

George, I've been watching you make so many happy faces, I even saw a fist pump there for a moment. So I. Before we wrap this up, I got to know what was going on there because it, like, that's the first time I haven't been watching your brain slowly collapse throughout this conversation. So I figure it's notable.

Yeah, I'm glad Max asked the question one because, like, it just got Doug to a really cool place. And. And the fist bump was when Doug was talking about have conversations with the human. Like, take time to actually conversate, which means take time to listen, which means take time to understand, and then have the road move forward from a place of understanding and listening and knowing. Like, I. So I think of empathy, and I think, like, you know, like, you're. You're. I think of partnership. Like, and. And I know he didn't say all of that, but that's where my brain, like, fist bump.

And.

And. And I love this idea that Doug went into about these buyer journeys, and it's less about the tool and more about the process. And there is just some good stuff that I hope people hit the rewind button. And, like, are we doing that at our organization? Like, do our managers do that at our organization? Like, do we pay attention? Is the partner we're using? Did they do that when we onboarded? Like, that's. Yeah, that's where my brain was going, and it was very, very happy place.

Can I take you to a different.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh, wait, Max, do you have something you want to add?

It kind of resonates with the way I like to think about, like, feedback and stuff like that. Like, I think, you know, I'm someone that I'm trying to, like, think. I feel like people, like, often just focus. Like, I get frustrated, and people just focus on feedback being, like, a negative thing and only sharing, like, constructive feedback that's, you know, specific versus, you know, oftentimes when you're sharing, like, positive feedback, which I hate. I hate even making this distinction between positive and constructive feedback because then it just makes it seem like constructive feedback is negative thing. But, like, oftentimes people will, like, will always tell you what's not working. When they do tell you what is working. Oftentimes they don't tell you why it's working. They just do that, hey, great job. Right? And it's like, that doesn't really help anybody. Kind of like how you were talking about the no notes thing, right? And, you know, there's a piece of me I'm trying to figure out, like, where I was going with this. It's like, I wish people focused more on saying like or, like, when people gave, like, positive feedback more so to say, like, this was great, but this was why it was great. And you should keep doing this because of this. Right? And that really kind of helped me switch around. Like, why is it, you know, important to say what's working? Because you want to be able to amplify what's working a whole lot more, not just ask what sucks? Because, like, I was always the person who was going saying what sucks? How can we fix it? Not what's going well. How can we do more of that? Right? And it's funny because I'm the one that says, why do we just focus on the negative and not, you know, try to reinforce the. The positive side of the feedback or, you know, noticing when something's going well. Right. And I think I just took a dose of my own medicine there thing, listening to Doug, so I love that.

I love it.

Appreciate you, Doug. Yeah.

Well, I have a little treat for everybody. After weeks, nay, months of complaints.

There we go.

We will be ending today's episode with the finest poetry chat GPT could offer on this topic.

Curious what's gonna happen here.

You'd be so proud of me. It's G rated.

Oh, that's good.

Not Max. And I'm an angel. And I've never done anything ever to get us canceled, ever.

I don't know about the old days of.

But yeah, ma', am.

I'll stop.

Okay. Oh, is Zoe here for me? Yes.

Just reminding you that you did things. Did do things.

Can we not.

So now read that poetry after that thought so.

You know what? I have no idea what you're talking about. Max. Zoe is an angel. Thank you for showing her to me again.

She is an angel.

In the old days of sales it was all door to door with clipboards and samples they'd roam and explore but the times they are a changing it's clear to see we're modernizing sales with great fervency. No more door to door. It's the digital age with smartphones and tablets we take center stage. But remember the heart of the sale lest we air is the people we serve and the trust that we share.

Okay. Boom, baby. Okay, that's good, Doug.

Appreciate you.

Thanks you tons. Ferven is a wild get you back on pretty soon. Peace out. Bye.

Peace out.

Okay Hub Heroes, we've reached the end of another episode. Will Lord Lack continue to loom over the community or will we be able to defeat him in the next episode of the Hub Heroes podcast? Make sure you tune in and find out. In the next episode, make sure you head over to thehubheroes.com to get the latest episodes of and become part of the League of Heroes. FYI, if you're part of the League of Heroes, you'll get the show notes right in your inbox and they come with some hidden power up potential as well. Make sure you share this podcast with a friend, leave a review if you like what you're listening to, and use the hashtag Hub Heroes Podcast on any of the socials and let us know what strategy conversation you'd like to listen into next. Until next time, when we meet and combine our forces, remember to be a happy, helpful, humble human. And of course, always be looking for a way.