Tracy Graziani on Limiting Beliefs to Leadership | Women of HubSpot

Welcome to the Women of HubSpot podcast, the show that celebrates the voices shaping marketing technology and the ever evolving HubSpot ecosystem. Hosted by George B. Thomas from Sidekick Strategies, each episode brings you the stories, strategies, and superpowers of the women driving this industry forward. It's their time. It's their mic. This is Women of HubSpot.

All right, I'm super excited. It's a Friday afternoon, and we're back with another episode. I don't know when you're watching this, I don't know how long it's been, but I'm super excited because I'm not here alone. That would be kind of weird. Women of HubSpot and just me doesn't make any sense at all. But I'm here with Tracy Graziani. And, Tracy, how the heck are you doing today?

I'm doing great.

That's good. I'm glad to hear it. I'm better now that you're here. I. I want to give people some context. This might be the first episode that they're tuning into. This whole thing happened last Super Bowl. Well, again, who knows when you're watching this, but it was the Philadelphia Eagles. They were playing. I was talking to my daughters because I have two daughters who I love so much, have two sons. I love them, by the way, too, but have two daughters. We were talking, and they were talking about how the quarterback had an all women's team. And I got emotionally moved, and I was like, you know, just to see how she was happy, impressed, empowered by even being able to tell the story. And so, sitting there watching the Super Bowl, I hop on my phone, I do a LinkedIn post, and I was like, if you know a dope woman that uses HubSpot, tag him in the post. Tracy has to be my probably most commented, shared, engaged with post ever. And I was like, this is amazing. I'm supposed to do something around this and sat and talked to my daughters. And here we are today talking to magnificent humans like you. So why don't you take a couple seconds and let the people watching or listening to this know before we get into the questions kind of who you are, what you do, and maybe where you do it at.

So, I'm Tracy Graziani of Graziani Multimedia. We are a HubSpot agency based in Cleveland, Ohio. My office is actually in a former elevator factory. So if you're wondering about this shiny thing in. In the background behind me, I'm not trapped in an elevator. The doors of the closet in my office are brass elevator doors from the Turn of the previous century.

That is actually, first of all, we're not even in questions and there's like cool facts also. I used to live in Ohio and have been to Cleveland and even worked in Cleveland for a little bit. So now, nice to have another Ohioan here. Okay, let's get in the wayback machine. Let's transport ourselves. If we could go back in time and meet young Tracy just starting out one, what would we see and what would she be most surprised by? About where you are now.

Wow.

It depends how far back you want to go.

Right.

If you go back to Tracy, Tracy, who was a kid seeing on television when they had the first video phones, like, I think it was like late 80s, like 89, something like that.

Right.

Remember seeing it on the news and it was like a ridiculous amount of money and a few corporations had these like video phones and you could do a call like we're doing right now. And you know, they said, and then in the future, you know, everyone's going to have one of these in their homes. At the time, it was like it was a specific device.

Right.

So the first thing is little Tracy would never been able to imagine the job that I do every day because 98% of what I do every day didn't exist when I was a kid.

Yeah, right.

So that's still a little surreal for me when I think about it.

Yeah, it is nuts. I mean, you know, I come from like pre Internet age, literally rode a pony to a one room schoolhouse in Montana. And to think about where we are now, like this is straight up Jetsons is what we live in. Right. All right.

Flying car or a robot made though. So we're not quite there yet, but we're getting there. We're getting there, we're getting there.

So here's the thing. So you've had a journey because we're talking about like little girl Tracy can't even fathom it didn't exist yet. So there's been a journey along the way. And I'm super curious when you think about points in your life who are some of your biggest inspirations or mentors.

Along the way, that could take hours. So it would be hard. But I think the first people you have, if you're lucky anyway, not everybody, not everybody is born into perfect situation. But for me, my family were those first people.

Right.

And so on my dad's side of the family, none of the women in my family had ever been to college or, excuse me, on my mom's side of the family, on my Dad's side of the family. My one aunt, my dad's sister was a teacher. But I didn't have a lot of career type mentorship from my family, but. But I did have really smart, really strong women in my family. And my great grandmother, who was born in 1904, really couldn't have imagined the world that. That existed by the time she died, let alone the world I live in now. But she was a really brave and unconventional woman during the Great Depression. She had two small children, and her husband was a con artist and therefore a criminal. And she got fed up, and she realized that that's not who she wanted her boys to become. And she divorced her husband at a time when women didn't do that. And she raised two amazing men as a single mother at a time when there were some families that wouldn't let their children play with my. My grandfather and my. My uncle because of what kind of a person his mother must be. She was the. One of the bravest, strongest people I ever knew. And she was someone who, when she was 70 years old, was like, you know what? I've never been to California. I think I'm gonna go. And she would, like, hop in the car and she'd get some little friend of hers, one of her retired buddies, and she would do a road trip and she would drive across the country and have an adventure. And it was really great to have a woman who made her own decisions in life, was empowered and strong, and that I saw men in my family respect her and treat her as someone who has agency and choice in their life. And so she's one of the many people, as I get older, that her voice is in my head, you know, like, she always used to say, you know, the things that you worry about almost never happen, and the bad things that do happen, you never thought to worry about anyway. And that comes to mind so much, you know, as I go along. So, you know, I feel like that was a really great place to start. And then I had teachers who believed in me and encouraged me and pushed me. You know, nobody could really imagine that I would be anything other than a nurse or a teacher, because that's just what people thought women did when I was a kid. And so, not that there's anything wrong with those things, but nobody had big dreams for me. They wanted me to be a good person. They wanted me to big be a good mom, all of those things, right? But, like, I had to dream big dreams for myself. And she was probably the first person I saw that did her version of that.

So I love this so much. Dream big dreams for yourself. Life's an adventure. And be brave. There are so many good, like, nuggets in that. And I do like, as you're talking about her, I envisioned my grandma, because I'll never forget. She was, like, I don't know, 74, 75. And she wrote a roller coaster for the first time in her life, and I had the opportunity to ride the roller coaster with her. And I don't like roller coaster, but I was like, grandma, if you're gonna.

Do it, you have to do it, right?

Yeah. I'm like, let's go. So I. I love that story so much. And a little bit of a history lesson, too, of how far we've come along the way speaking. Tracy. Of how far we've come along the way. On your journey, I'm sure there's been some hurdles or biases that you've had to overcome in your career. And when that happened, like, maybe. What were they and how have you navigated them along the way?

I think the first thing is that piece I talked about is, like, nobody ever told me. Nobody told me specifically, my family. Like, I said, I was lucky. My family cared about me. They were good people. Not everybody gets that. So I. I'm very grateful for that. Also. Nobody ever told me that I could be or do anything. And I'd certainly never seen women do really cool stuff. And so I think the first thing was, like, when I was in high school, to do, like, an aptitude assessment. They had all of the students. I think it was my senior year. It may have been my junior year. I don't remember. But they had everyone take the asvab, the Armed Services Battery, and it's the one that's supposed to tell you what career you should have. Right now, largely, the. The military is using that to, like, what career you should have in the military. So it's a little limiting, right? But when I took it, it said that if I went to college, I should be an engineer, and if I didn't go to college, I should be a mechanic. When I got those results and brought them home, everybody laughed. It was funny. Like, it was funny to everyone that a girl would be either of those things. Things in myself included, right? Like, I took. Now I realize, I know standardized tests are flawed and blah, blah, blah, all those things, right? But. But, like, I. I had, like, this evidence that I could be this thing, and it still was absurd to me. And so, like, the first thing I had to overcome was, like, Limiting beliefs. And a lot of that just comes from our culture, not from anybody directly being like, you're a girl. You can't do things. Nobody ever specifically said those words to me.

Right, Right.

It was more that I just internalized. There's things that are for me, and there's things that are for other people. So the first thing I had to do is start to overcome the assumptions that my culture created for me.

Right.

So, like, I think that was the first thing I had to overcome. And then the worst part about it is once you overcome that and you're like, actually, I can do what I want. I can be what I want, then you start running into the thing. Things where then people do overtly say, oh, actually, this space isn't for you. You're not welcome. Those kinds of things. Like, my first job as a sales manager, I was in this company. There were. There were 200 sales managers. Three of them were women. And we had this sales training meeting where all the sales managers were in this big room, you know, and you've been to these.

Right.

Like, somebody gives a talk, and then you do, and then there's a break, and then you come back and there's more stuff. So when we go to break, the VP who was running the sales meeting says, now make sure everybody clean up your stuff. Otherwise Tracy and Jennifer here are going to have to clean up after you.

Oh, my.

Right.

Because, like, so, like, that was. So then when I finally, like, get to where I'm, like, I'm going to be in these, like, spaces, whether I'm supposed to be here or not, whether I'm invited or not. And then the people in power very clearly made me understand that I'm not the same as everyone else here, you know?

Yeah.

But I have to meet or exceed all the same expectations as all these guys, but I also have to clean up after them.

Yeah. That's so nuts. So there's. There's a couple things. One, if. If you're watching this or listening this, getting past your own limiting beliefs is, like, an amazing place to get in life. I'll never forget, I. I read the book the Big Leap by Gay Hendrickson or Gay Hendrix. There's no song on the end of it, and it. And it's so good, and it's so powerful to think like you got to that point. The fact that that was even stated it, like, makes my heart sink. And I almost wonder if you're kind of telling the story on the question that I still want to ask, because maybe there is Another time. Or maybe that was at least one of the times because you start to believe in yourself. Somebody has actually shown you something. You internally start to go, is it possible? You start to make strides that way, and then this happens. And so my next question is just like, have you ever had to face a moment? And by the way, I know this is sort of a trick question because I think we all have, but have you ever had to face a moment where you just felt underestimated or you felt overlooked or out of place in an industry? And when that happened, like, how did you handle it?

Probably not well. I was working at a company where my role was general manager, and I had an assistant that worked under me who was, I don't know, 15 years younger. This was his first management job. He was very inexperienced. And every time the regional manager came into town, he took this junior and employee, my assistant, who worked under me, out to lunch and not me. After, like the third time that it happened, I asked, you know, when my boss came back from lunch, I was like, hey, you know, I noticed you keep taking Sean out to lunch when you come into town. Is there a reason why you've never had lunch with me?

Right?

And he's like, well, because you're a woman.

Oh.

And I was like, well, I mean, I, I realized that. And he was like, well, I wouldn't want people to think that you're sleeping with me.

Oh my God.

I'm doing this to protect you. He says, yeah. I'm like, are there a lot of people, like, having sex at Skyline Chile that I didn't know about? Like, like, seriously, like, you know, and at that point I just let it go. But, but what was more upsetting was I later learned that that kid was making more money than me.

Oh, yeah. See, see, this is, this is part of just a small sliver of why I'm like, we got to tell these stories. We gotta, like, have these conversations. We need to bring light on, you know, where we've been, where we are, where we can still get to. I've got one more question around this direct. I swear we're going to start to climb up the mountain and get to the mountaintop with some, some questions of. But, but I'm super curious because again, I know I personally have, like, I've had things where I just flat call it, like, woo, that was a fail. Or like a setback in life where I'm like, I didn't know I was going to end up in the hospital for three and a half days this Morning. But okay, so I'm super curious if you have one of those stories where, Tracy, you've just experienced, like a significant failure. Failure or setback and kind of, what did you learn from it as you're going through that?

Wow. I don't know. I think there's a lot of those in life. I think the thing in my life, the time, it's not even necessarily work related, but the thing in my life where I felt like the biggest failure ever and felt a lot of shame and really struggled to figure out where to go next was my divorce. My current marriage is my second marriage. I got married really young. I got married shortly after graduating from college, and I was married for seven years. You know, I was. But that divorce, that experience felt like the biggest failure and was really, really hard for me to figure out how to move forward in my life for a little bit.

I feel you, because it's funny, the beginning of your story, you're like, I had these parents that. And this family that. And. And not everybody does. And listen, I have a great family, but I also come from a divided family, so I know what, like, divorce does. And I was the guy who was like, once married, always married until I got divorced. I too, am on my second marriage, and it was just a gut punch when, when I was going through that. So I totally feel where you're coming from. Okay, let's. Let's make this a sunnier day. Let's move into some questions. You used this word earlier, by the way. You said empowered. And so I'm curious, Tracy, what does empowerment mean to you and how do you pass that on to others in the field?

Well, actually, that's an interesting part too, because empowerment specifically is about passing it on, right? So there's another thing that's really important, which is if nobody is empowering you, you also have the choice to claim your own power, which I did not know for a really long time. So you do not have to wait for a mentor to show up or for anybody to give you permission or to share their power with you to help you get power. But that is what empowerment is. So, by God, if you have managed to get somewhere, please reach behind you and pull up the other people like you, right? But if nobody is reaching behind, and that does happen, you don't have to wait for somebody to empower you. So that, that is one thing I feel really strongly about. But to me, empowerment is. It can be something as small as when I lost my job and a friend reached out to me and just Sent, you know, sent me a text message and says, maybe now's the time you start something yourself. That's empowerment. That's somebody believing in me enough to say, you don't have to get this from someone else. You can make your own luck and world.

Right?

So like empowerment can be something as small as a text or as big as becoming a big sister and big brothers, big sisters, right? Like, it could be a whole lot of different things, but what it is is whatever power you have, you share it with somebody else. That's what empowerment is.

I love that idea of sharing and also bringing people up with you. I love to kind of, I map it in my brain of being a blessing bomber along the way and like just giving, giving that, that love to folks, if you will. So, okay, so speaking of that, then, can you share a moment in your career where you felt especially empowered or proud of like something that you had achieved?

It's funny, there's like little ones and big ones and sometimes they take a really, really long time too. In one sense, starting the business I have now, just starting it, I am especially proud of because I was at this crossroads where I could go work for somebody else again, fully invest in taking my business seriously and taking it from being consulting to being a real business. And I had decided that's what I wanted to do. And then a couple of influential family members pushed back really hard and said, you shouldn't do this. You're putting your family at risk. It's too dangerous, it's too risky, all of those things. And I had to make a decision that I knew was going to upset some people very close to me, but I knew was the right thing for me and my family. And I remember the day I signed the lease on our first office. This isn't it. But the day I signed the lease on our first office, the minute I like put my pen to that check, I like started to hold my breath. I felt so anxious and I handed it over to the landlord and he gave me the keys and I went in the empty office and I sat on the floor and I was filled with this like excitement about what I thought I was going to do and the absolute fear of how I was going to answer for. I did the exact thing you told me not to do. And I'm a grown ass woman at that point, you know, but there's this thing that women experience a lot is like there's this thing where you have to be the good girl. It's really like successful. Like you'll find A lot of successful women will say that, like, they're always trying to be the good girl. You don't want to be the. There's all these other like, versions of a girl that you can be that are not good.

Right.

And so part of that is pleasing people in authority because you don't, you ultimately never have the authority. There is always somebody with more authority than you when you're a woman.

Right.

And so if you choose to do something that's going to piss off the people with authority or that you perceive to have authority, you're not being good anymore. And that's really scary, you know? And so I had just done what I knew was the right thing for my family, but I was not being a good girl. And that filled me with terror. And it was the best decision I ever made. I'm so glad I did it.

Oh man, my brain is breaking right now because as a guy, I know the massive leap that I felt that I had to make when I started my business. And again, talking to my wife and it was like a two week conversation of like non stop, like, what if? And like, I know how I felt at that moment. But to, to hear you talk about going through that journey and having this whole other piece as a female that you had to deal with psychologically and culturally. I'm, I'm just like, I'm sitting here and I'm like, I don't think I could bear the weight. Like it was enough what I had to go through, let alone that as well. This is, see, this is why I love these conversations. Like, it allows me to transport my brain into places and spaces that I never have imagined or thought that I'd be talking about. So, okay, let's keep moving forward. Let's think about the industry that we're in. And if you could change one thing, like you got a magic wand, there's really no such thing, but you got a magic wand. You could change one thing about how women are supported in the industry. What the heck would it be?

I think what needs to happen is something we started to learn during the pandemic, but I don't think it really clicked, which is that someone can be a good worker and work in a way that you don't imagine good work being. So what women need, because we are in a country that, that doesn't have reasonable, affordable health care. It doesn't have reasonable, affordable childcare.

Right?

Those, those are the things women most need. But, but in a workplace, you and I can't fix that, right? Like, like that that's a systemic problem that exists outside of our business. So if you want women to be more successful, if you want them to be able to advance their careers, if you want them to be in leadership, if you want them, then you have to be willing to be flexible about when, where and how they work. Because I will tell you that I have, I have on my team a single mom with three children who she homeschools and she is the best damn HubSpot admin I can think of or imagine. But we have constructed a job and other people's jobs to make it possible for her to thrive in that role. And what that looks like is that we have part time people who support her and offset her schedule to allow her to work the schedule she needs to work because she's the, she's the brains of this operation. She is. You know how hard it is to really get good at HubSpot. It takes time and experience. I can't just hire somebody and get them up to speed in a month. That just doesn't work like that. It's years. Because it's a complex tool.

Right.

And so her brain is super, super important. I don't need her to though, build those workflows, right. Because she can architect the workflow and we can have a freelancer or a part timer actually execute that work. So we built the job for the person. We didn't have a job that we then found a person to fill.

Right.

And so that's what we do is we rearrange people's jobs so that they can be successful. And, and the only reason that happens in our company is probably because I'm a woman and I know what it's like to have toddlers.

Right.

And I know that you're not being a bad employee if you need to work a weird schedule where you work from 8am to 11 and then you work, you know, in the evening or whatever.

Right.

Like that makes perfect sense to me because I've been there. And you can still be really dedicated to your job and do a really good job and be really invested and talented and professional and all of those things and have an unpredictable schedule as long as you meet all your commitments.

Right?

Yeah. Which by the way, as a parent of four kids, equal unpredictable schedule. Just throwing that out there. And I love the fact that there can be a world where it's like, I don't have to sacrifice the love for my children and the life that I want to give them for actually working in a place that I also love. And want to give my affection to in the way that I actually do it. This so amazing. Okay, so this is. It's literally called the Women of HubSpot series. And so now I'm going to turn to HubSpot for a second and I'm going to ask you, are there any particular tools, strategies, trends inside of HubSpot that, like, right now you're super excited about?

I'm really. It's funny. There's like, to me, there's like little sleeper things that are really great that are not getting as much excitement or attention as some of the other things. But I love the AI overviews and a contact record or a company record or the little AI button that they've added now to your meeting links on your calendar to prep for the meeting. Those are little things I don't hear people talking about a lot. And I'm like, those are saving me lots of time. Because my usual practice in a sales conversation was to go to the contact record, scroll through that activity feed, and just kind of scan it and read it and kind of get myself up to speed on, oh, what was that last conversation with them? And, oh, they've been opening these marketing emails, whatever, right? That all took 15 minutes before a call. Now it's like, you know, five or less for me to just read that little overview and be prepped, you know, So I think there's lots of thoughtful things. I mean, when they're rolling out like 200 updates at a time, there's lots of great ones in there and then there's some that are kind of duds.

Right?

Like, you know, some of this stuff is just not great yet and, but it will be later because that's how the AI stuff works. I'm really excited to. And again, not hearing a lot of people getting excited about it. I'm really excited about the new objects that they've added, the courses and listings and all of that, because there's this fun little feature in there that is. That kind of buried the lead. You can rename them. So if you don't have a real estate business, you can rename listings. And now you've basically got a custom object without paying for it that's like golden.

Yeah, there's. There's so many good things that happen and you're, you're right. So many updates. I do love the fact that you lean into these, like, quality of life updates. The things that are like, they're just so simple. They're just so right. But, you know, the, the flashy big things Are. Are taking the juice, if you will, from it. Okay, so let's talk about you as a human and other humans. How important is networking with other humans or even if you want to dive into, like, networking with other females? And are there any certain strategies that you use to kind of build those connections along the way?

Wow. That was one of the things early in my career that I didn't understand, and. And I frankly kind of screwed up my first management job. I was pretty young. I was like 23. My boss kept emailing me, like, these events around town. Like, she'd forward me an email or whatever. And then like the third or fourth time, she was like, hey, I didn't see you at that thing. And I was like, what thing? She's like, I emailed it to you. And I was like, oh, you mean I have to go to those when you send me those? Because they were like, outside of work, they were in the evening, you know. And she was like, yeah, that's a part of your job. Like, you're supposed to interface with the community in this job. And I was like, well, nobody told me that, like, this is something I don't know very much about. And I'm kind of an introvert. So at first I was kind of even resentful about it because then I go and I'm like, I don't know anybody here. I don't know what to do. You know, I can like, stand here and hold a chardonnay for a while, but, like, it just feels awkward, you know, So I had to learn it. It's a skill. And I still have to force myself to do it sometimes because, you know, my preference for my free time is to read a book. I like quiet. That said, all people, even introverts, we're relational beings. Like, we're meant to interface and connect. And networking is a thousand percent important no matter what your career. But in the, in the business we're in, the relationships aren't just about sales. I think sometimes people think that that's the thing, but I think it was probably Dave Kirpin. I learned this from years ago, but his, his thing is always in networking. Just ask people, hey, what can I help you with? Who are you hoping to meet at this thing? And intentionally being a connector, that part, once I learned that strategy, it got easier for me because that's fun to me, like, helping people find the thing they're looking for, the person they're looking for, the resource they're looking for. I like to help. What I didn't like, was the feeling I'm here, and I have to, like, do a business thing. I have to sell you something. I have to whatever, right? Like, that felt uncomfortable. Once I started thinking of networking as helping, it really made things easier for me. And I really do love to help people. And now, because I've done that, I know if there's a person, a resource, whatever I need, I have people I can go to and say, hey, I'm really looking for somebody who understands legal agreements, you know, in healthcare or something. Do you guys have a reference that I can talk to? I've got a network of people who'll be like, oh, yeah, I've got a guy. This is who you talk to as much as literally, somebody could refer me some business.

You know, I love how you're kind of leaning in. Like, networking isn't needing to show up with the hype. It's needing to show up with the help. And when you come at it from that way, it's just a way different thing. Tracy, here's the thing. Let's just get to, like, the mountaintop and what I mean by that and by the way, we've got a couple questions. We're kind of starting to land the plane, if you will, but let's get to the mountaintop. For Tracy, what has been the most rewarding aspect of your career?

Rewarding is so much more about how you feel about it, really, I think, than what you've gotten out of it. And so I think for me, the most rewarding thing thing has been watching my teammates, you know, my employees, the people that I work with, watching them grow as people and in their careers and achieve things they hadn't necessarily imagined. I have two former employees who have started their own businesses and are very successful in their businesses. I am just as happy and proud of them as I am the people who've been with me for five or six years and are helping me grow this business.

Yeah, I think we have kindred spirits, because for me, it's about being the catalyst, no matter if that's inside the walls or outside. Like, I just love that so much. Okay, so let's go into to mentor mode. Tracy, what. What advice would you give other women who might want to choose a similar career path to what you've chosen?

Never take advice from somebody who doesn't have what you want. If somebody is unhappy and you want to be happy, don't take life advice from them. If somebody's struggling in their business, they're not the one to give you business advice. You want to be careful who you listen to because the one thing humans are great at is sharing their thoughts, opinions and advice whether they are qualified to do it or not. So be careful who you listen to. I think that's the first thing. The other thing is if there isn't a space that's giving you what you need, create it. And this is probably why other people sent, you know, commented about me on that post you mentioned at the beginning.

Right?

Yeah.

Is when I first became a HubSpot agency partner. I joined a lot of the different groups, trainings, webinars, etc. And almost every room that I sat in with people who owned HubSpot agencies, virtual or real, I was one of a handful of women or less often I was the only woman in the room. And there obviously there's lots of cool stuff I can learn from men. I have done that my whole life. You know, that's fine. But I felt like there was something missing in that experience for me. And I had already seen when I was working for other people the way the good old boys club works. And it's not always intentional. You know, it's the boss who won't take his female employee out for lunch for fear people thinking he's having an affair. Which says something about him, not me.

Right.

That says something about his character, that people would believe that.

Right.

And that he thinks people would think that.

Right.

But. But it doesn't matter. It was, it was the reality.

Right?

And I realized that even in a. The HubSpot community is great, the guys in that community are great. But there was still something that was missing. And I still felt like there was kind of a good old boys club that was happening on the edges, if not very much out in the front.

Right.

And so I knew there were other women because I bump into them here and there. And so I was like, I'm going to start a good old girls club because I think that I need this. And so I did. And so I made a little form and I posted it in the Lion Slack channel. And I said, women who own HubSpot agencies. I'm starting a mastermind group. If you're interested, fill out this form. And then I met with everybody individually and I said, we're going to do this like old school, like Napoleon Hill, think and grow rich. Like this is not a networking group. We're not selling to each other. We're not referring leads. It's not bni. It's, it's none of those things. If you join this, it's because you want to grow your business, you're going to set goals and we're going to hold each other accountable. Do you want to do this? And we got an initial group of like 12 women who are like, yes, this is exactly what I want. I do want to grow my business. And so we started meeting on Wednesday mornings for a mastermind group shortly before the pandemic. Then the pandemic hit. And I mean these women, everybody who joined that group has grown their business as a director. Result, like it absolutely has helped people grow. They've also become some of my best friends. And the other thing that that is cool is that we are also in like six different countries. And so not only do you get that fun thing of like, oh, we're also similar, you also get that perspective of what isn't similar and learning about culture and all of those things. And that was just a hunch that I had, but it was a good one. And I think anybody could do what I did, you know, and it does, it didn't cost any money. I don't charge anybody to be in the group, it's free. But you have to commit to each other. You're going to help each other out, you're going to hold each other accountable and you're going to show up every week. And anybody could do that. It doesn't matter where you are. You don't have to be women to do it, any of those things.

Right?

Like, but whatever's missing, you can make it happen. Somewhere along the line I finally learned that I could make my own luck.

I love that so much. Create your own space, create your own luck. And it's really just like love on yourself and love on others. If I just boil it down to like the basic thing I hear when you're telling us. Yeah, I love it so much. Okay, so we started, by the way, I have this question then two questions and we're out of here. Back to our normal day and for us, to the weekend people watching this. I don't know if they're midweek or beginning of the week, but we talked about little girl Tracy at the very beginning. So let's talk about Tracy right now. What are your long term goals, man?

Well, now I'm a middle aged lady and little, little girl Tracy never thought about what it would be like to have a 22 year old kid.

Right?

You know, so I'm at this whole new place where I'm figuring all these things out. So here's my dream. I shouldn't keep saying it out loud because then it's not going to happen because of how children work. But my kids are eight and a half years apart, so I have a 22 year old and a 13 year old. My life dream is for them to really find work that they love and enjoy and brings them joy and does good in the world and all of those things. However, I would like them to find that within reasonable driving distance of one another. Now they can move to Italy for all I care, but they both have to be there and they both have to be less than a day's drive from one another. And then I want to live somewhere in proximity to them.

Yeah, yeah.

So that's, that's what I want for the next part of my life. That's my big dream.

I love that close to family and being able to just spend copious amounts of time together. I, I'm so down with that. We, we've literally gotten to the point where our dream is land. So everybody could have their own house on the land and we would just be there together.

I think if I propose that then my children would absolutely like, you know, do the exact opposite. So I can't, I'm not going to take it that far. I feel like what I'm asking seems pretty reasonable. I'm not saying they have to be in or around Cleveland. I can appreciate why, why you would choose somewhere else.

Right.

And I've lived a lot of, you know, I've moved around a bit as an adult. I can make myself happy just about anywhere. Just don't want them to be one of them in New York and one of them in California. That's what I don't want.

Makes it difficult. Makes it super difficult. I have a son who lives in Oregon and we live in North Carolina and the other three live here with us. All of them, by the way, are 20 or older. My oldest is 30 plus. So it's like, you know, that travel time gets interesting. Okay. Not why we're here though. Here, here's two questions left. What is a surprising or little known fact? Because by the way, we figured out that you like chardonnay. We figured out, we figured out that you like to read books. You know, we figured out like you, you, you ask yourself, is it possible? And that you're a catalyst for the humans around you. But, but what is a surprising or little known fact about you that people might not expect?

I've never lived anywhere that I didn't have a sidewalk in front of my house. Mostly an urbanist, I guess. I've been. I've never really, like, lived out in the country, really. High school, college and graduate school all had the same mascot.

They were.

All had eagles for their mascot. I always thought that was kind of weird. Not a choice. It just happened like that.

I love it. The fact that it's like sidewalk.

I don't know, I'm like. I think, what do people like? What is. I don't know. I'm. I think I'm probably pretty boring.

No. God, no. This conversation has not been boring at all. This has been an absolute delight for a Friday end of day conversation. I've had so much fun. And let's just kind of end it with this. Let's land the plane. For Tracy, finish this sentence. Success to me means blank.

Freedom. The real thing that money, power, whatever people normally would call success. I think the real thing that we want, or many of us want, on the other side of that is freedom. The freedom to make choices, to have influence and efficacy and power in your own life. And so nobody wants to feel stuck. Nobody wants to feel trapped. So, yeah, I think success is freedom.