Why Is Imposter Syndrome So Common + What Can We Do About It? #imposter

Foreign.

Recognition, the mountaintop where the air gets thin. It's a bit of an irony, to be honest with you, but sometimes the more successful you become, the more successful you are, the more you might feel like an imposter. It's weird, but it's absolutely freaking true. When you're recognized and given more responsibilities, it can stir up fears that maybe you're not cut out for this, even though deep down you totally are, but you just don't feel like it. Listeners, as we step forward, let's take this newfound understanding, these ideas, these aggregators, these root problems, and apply them or use them to apply fixes to our lives. Let's. Let's be kind to ourselves, recognize our own worth, and embrace our journey with confidence. Let's break free from the chains of imposter syndrome and step into our light, stronger and more self assured than ever before.

Welcome back to Beyond. You'd default. I am your host, Liz Morehead, and as always, I am joined by the one, the only, George B. Thomas. George, how you doing?

I'm doing good. I'm glad. I am probably the one, the only. My wife is probably really, really glad I'm the one and only. If there were more than me. Ooh. I mean, especially with the topic that we're thinking about today and having to keep up with myself. But you know what? Maybe I do that anyway. And maybe the listeners do that anyway. Like, are you trying to keep up with a doppelganger in your own brain? Anyway, it's really early to be getting.

Existential, even for us, George. My God. You know what? When we got on this morning, I asked you how you felt about this topic, whether you were excited to record it, and your response was hilarious because it made me want to say, why does your excitement sometimes look and sound like indigestion?

Right. It does sometimes. Like, I am great at sounding excited but looking terrified.

I have a knack for if I am nervous about a topic, we're all going to know. We're all going to know exactly where Liz stands. I'm not someone who has what I would call a poker face. I was out with a friend yesterday and I was telling him about a personal situation I'm going through where someone I know was absolutely convinced I was upset about something. And I'm a very literal point A, you know me, I'm point A. Point B, very little ambiguity in between. And he said, liz, that's the great thing about you. No one ever, ever has to worry where they stand. They know you're fine. So why do I bring this up? Ladies, gentlemen, they, thems, all of you out there, I would like to be very clear about something. We are back to another topic of conversation this week that makes me wildly uncomfortable.

We're talking alone.

Yeah, and this was actually. No, I was about to say this was your idea, but this was my idea.

It was. You put yourself and me into this.

It's called growth mindset. You have to be willing to get uncomfortable. Go back to episode 18 or whichever that one was. Anyway, this is like our seasons of life conversation. I'm uncomfortable because we're talking about the ubiquitous, the often abused turn of phrase, imposter syndrome. Now, I want to be very clear on what imposter syndrome is for our audience. I pulled the definition from the two clinical psychologists, Pauline Rose Clance and Suzanne Imes, who first identified this phenomenon back in 1978. It is the condition of feeling anxious and not experiencing success internally despite being high performing in external, objective ways. This condition often results in people feeling like a fraud, a phony, or doubting their abilities. Now, okay, yes, I am anxious about this topic, but there is a reason why I did want to talk about this. It's something I hear a lot of people talk about, whether it's peers. I've watched you have conversations about it with other people. This is a topic where does it make you uncomfortable as well? Maybe a little bit oddly existential for first thing on a Monday morning, a hundred percent. But it's something you and I find ourselves talking about quite a bit. You know, examples of imposter syndrome for me are when someone gives me a compliment, I don't quite believe it. I find reasons not to believe it within myself. I know one of the things that I've talked about with friends where they're like, oh my gosh, me too. It's feelings of being that fraud. But not only just fraudulent feelings, you were just moments away from being found out that you're at a table you shouldn't have been invited at. What I found fascinating, though, in the research for this episode is a story that I want to read from world renowned author Neil Gaiman, because I think it really highlights how pervasive and much of a shared experience imposter syndrome can be. So he says, some years ago, I was lucky enough to be invited to a gathering of great and good people, artists and scientists, writers and discoverers of things. And I felt that at any moment they would realize I didn't qualify to be there among these people who had really done things on my Second or third night there I was standing at the back of the hall while musical entertainment was happening, and I started talking to a very nice, polite, elderly gentleman about several things, including our shared first name. And then he pointed to the hall of people and said words to the effect of, I just look at all these people and I think, what the heck am I doing here? They've made all of these amazing things. I just went where I was sent and I said, yes, but you were the first man on the moon. I think that counts for something. And I felt a bit better, because if Neil Armstrong felt like an imposter, maybe everyone did. Maybe there weren't any grownups, only people who had worked hard and also got lucky and were slightly out of their depth. All of us doing the best job we could, which is all we really can hope for. So, again, that was an excerpt from Neil Gaiman talking about his experience meeting Neil freaking Armstrong, who was displaying a textbook symptom of imposter syndrome. So this week, this is what we're discussing. George, I know you're particularly passionate about this topic. Why is this a topic you care so much about? Because this is not the first time I've heard you have some version of this conversation.

Yeah, so a couple things. First of all, Liz, you were so close when you said episode 18 about growth mindset.

How far was I off?

Only two episodes. It's episode 20. But the reason I want to make sure we put a pin in episode 20 is because those of us that are focused on growth mindsets and growing ourselves and going to a place where we believe that we can achieve are going to fall prey to this conversation in our own brain so many times. And so I want you to be able to go back to that growth mindset and what is it really? Conversation. The other thing that I have to pull out and, God, I just. I got chills when you were talking about this. I just went where I was sent. The amount of people who choose not to go where they're supposed to go in life, when you can lean in and understand that fundamentally is a magic thing, that if you are just living your life and you feel like I'm just going where I was sent, I'm just doing what I should do. Trust me when I tell you that you are far beyond most mere mortal humans who are walking this earth in the default stage that we are battling against on this podcast, beyond your default. So, Liz, I was recently on another podcast, which, by the way, I think was the precipice for us to do this because you saw the podcast, you listened to it, we, like, shared it on social. And I talked about this idea of having imposter syndrome. And it's funny, I think that people think that. That they're the only ones who fight with this, that we reach a magical place in life where this syndrome just disappears. But I'm here to tell you that is not true unless we understand and battle it. The closer you get to beyond your default, the more you grow, the worse this may be for you. And so having this conversation is literally trying to give you the tool belt. You know, like a superhero, like Batman has his grappling hook. This conversation is hopefully going to give you the tools to understand that as you journey closer to a life beyond your default, and as this starts to hit your brain more, that you'll have this. So as a podcast listener, you might even be thinking, though, I don't deal with this well, maybe you do, but maybe it sounds a little bit different, looks a little bit different. Let me tell you, it has everything to do with living your best life and embracing. And Liz, you kind of let the cat out the bag immediately embracing this growth mindset. In other words, it has everything to do with living a life beyond your default. If you're doing that, imposter syndrome is going to strike. It's not if. It's when. It's going to happen. And as a listener of this podcast, you're on the brink of stepping into a new adventure or opportunity. With every single episode that you listen to and with every mindset through this podcast that you unlock, you're just that much closer to doing something that you once believed that you couldn't do. But here's the deal. Something holds you back. That little voice in your head whispers, are you sure you can do this? What if you're not good enough? Now that, my friends, is imposter syndrome. It's like this invisible barrier keeping you from pursuing your potential. But the good news, understanding and overcoming this sneaky syndrome. And that's why I'm saying some people will be like, what does this have to. To do with me? This mother. It can be sneaky. Like, the things that it puts in your brain, the way that it tries to attack you, and understanding and overcoming it can be an absolute game changer. It's. It's honestly like finding the key to unlock your true capabilities when you understand how to battle this. And trust me, well, I don't want to let the cat out the back. I may or may not have had to deal with imposter syndrome in my life. Go on.

Because, you know, that's where I'm going next. You know that's where I'm going next. It's funny. I intellectually know that imposter syndrome is ubiquitous. I know the reason we're having this conversation is because it's one that people talk about quite a bit. But also in those moments where I feel it strike, there is a sense of isolation, a sense of loneliness, a sense of feeling of I am not waiting for me and my peers to get found out. I'm waiting for me to specifically to get found out. Right. So, George, talk me through it. Talk me through your experiences with imposter syndrome.

Yeah. And I think too, why it matters for this journey beyond our default. And, and again, I'm on this journey. Liz is on this journey. And you either need to know or if you've heard me say it on the podcast before, you need to remember that. One of the things I believe is that every challenge is an opportunity in disguise. And when you tackle imposter syndrome head on, you're not just overcoming self doubt, but you're opening doors to new possibilities, you're taking risks, you're stepping up your game in life and in work. This journey is also about getting to know the real you. We talk about, like, self awareness on this podcast, but peeling back the layers of doubt reveals your true strengths, areas for growth, empowering you to navigate your path more clearly and confidently. Overcoming these imposter kind of feelings is like laying the foundation of a house where your confidence can stand tall and sturdy, enabling you to chase your dreams with a fearless heart. And if you need to go back and listen to the episode on fear, trust me, do that. When you tackle imposter syndrome head on, you unlock authenticity as an ultimate superpower in your life. And it's about aligning your actions with your core values and showing up as your true, unapologetic self. Liz, I have to insert here. You're whole ass human. When you shed the imposter syndrome, you shine your light brighter and more authentically to the world, to those who need you to be there. Success isn't just about what you've achieved, ladies and gentlemen, but that's what the world would have us want to believe. It's about overcoming your fears and doubts to get there. By conquering imposter syndrome, you're setting the stage for a life where you can truly thrive and feel fulfilled. And I've said this on the podcast before, I just want to be happy. I Just want to feel happy. Fulfillment is the thing that you would probably have if you were feeling happy. We have to understand this because sometimes I talk about a life beyond your default. Like it is a destination, but it is not a place. It might be a space, but you're forever walking around it. What I mean by that is growth is a never ending journey, and tackling imposter syndrome is part of that journey. Probably on an hourly, maybe on a daily, potentially in a weekly, sometimes on a monthly basis, depending on how good you get at what we're talking about today. But it's continuously evolving, learning from each experience and becoming a more insightful and empowered version of you, of yourself. So that's why this is important list. There's like, a lot to it. Like the things that you're unlocking and the directions that you can go when you truly take the time to navigate and break this down. Super powerful, but I'm still not letting.

You off the hook. You've painted this incredible picture about why this conversation is important, why it matters to you in the abstract, but I am still waiting to sit here and hear from George B. Thomas about his personal experiences with imposter syndrome. So I'm just gonna sit here with my little. Yeah, nice, nice try.

I mean, I tried at least. Added value along the way.

No, I appreciate that. Now here's the thing. A your tangents in an intent to obfuscate your own personal things you don't want to talk about. They're beautiful, they're inspiring. Just golf claps all around. But, sir, I'm going to sit here and wait now for the answer to my question.

I mean, of course it is. Of course it's something I struggle with, to be honest with you, every single day I struggle with imposter syndrome. I mean, listen, I. I love sharing my knowledge and insights, especially about inbound marketing and HubSpot. Like, these are subjects that I'm deeply passionate about. Heck, I love sharing my stories and journey of life like this entire podcast and what we do. And every so often, Liz, it'll lead me to standing on stage like the inbound and the marketing and hey, maybe someday this podcast will. But right before I usually step onto stage, these doubts start creeping in. Am I truly good enough? What if the audience realizes I'm not the expert they expect? What if there's somebody smarter than me in the room and I sit there with the microphone in hand and my heart kind of starts racing, but there's this thing, it's going around in my brain and Nobody can see it because the exterior shell is like, oh, he's excited to be on that stage. But inside, I'm dying a little bit. But I get up there, I share my knowledge, connect with the audience, and the response is incredible. Like, people are like, that was the most amazing thing. And honestly, I blacked out for probably 90 of the time that I've spoken on stage. And it's a really weird phenomenon, but, like, it's in the brain. I know where I'm trying to land. I know where I'm trying to go. I know what I'm trying to teach. But I'm just afraid that I'm not supposed to be the guy there in the moment. And I have to tell myself, george, you got this. Like, I physically talked to myself. You got this, bro. Like Neil Armstrong, you have been sent here. This God wants you to be on this stage right here, right now, to do this thing, to help these people. His words, not yours. Go. Just knock it off. Like, these are. These are internal conversations that nobody ever hears, but I'm sharing on this podcast. Listen, Liz. I create a metric button of content. When I create content, it's funny because people have said, man, nobody makes content like gbt George B. Thomas, which it feels weird to even, like, talk to myself about myself in third person. But people say that it's because when I create content, I'm baring my soul to the world. Like, all of my experiences, all of my knowledge. And not many people know this, but I'm usually questioning my value. Is my content impactful? Am I really offering something new? Do people really need another video on X, Y, Z? Do they need to hear a podcast about abc? And so I battle the doubts, and I listen for the feedback from the people that I'm creating content, AKA my community. And you know what's funny is it usually comes back that they're very affirming. They were engaged, they were learning, and they usually ask for more. And it reminds me that, like, yes, I do bring value to the table. Yes, my work resonates with people, but there's this internal battle and struggle that happens along the way. There isn't probably a day that I don't have to remind myself that I'm stepping out of a comfort zone. I'm pushing myself to be this person that I wasn't the day before. Realizing or remembering that imposter syndrome is just a sign that I am doing this thing that I have chose to do, that imposter syndrome is a thing that shows up when growth is Happening. Listen, listeners like me, you might face those moments of doubt, but you can also push through and shine. You've got unique insights and value to offer, so embrace your expertise, lean into your growth, and keep moving forward with confidence. Liz, this entire podcast journey is one giant leap through the wall of imposter syndrome that lives in my brain. By the way, like, just coming clean, when we started this, I was like, do I really want to do this? But I'm curious, Liz, what about you? Do you deal with imposter syndrome? Let's flip the hot seat right back to you and see how that works on a daily life for you.

Absolutely not. I am an angel, a picture of confidence, of grace.

Yes, yes, of course.

Absolutely. I mean, my relationship with imposter syndrome is complicated because I'll be perfectly honest, in doing research for this topic, I came across this incredible article from the New Yorker that featured interviews with the two clinical psychologists who actually coined the term. Generally speaking, when something becomes very popular, I get a little bit about it. Like, to give you a really glib example, when everybody was losing their minds over the movie Garden Steak back in, like, 2001 or 2002, I'm like, well, I'm just not going to see it then. You know, there's a meme out there for us elder millennials where it's a little penguin folding his arms really angrily going, well, now I don't want to do it. And I'm very much that penguin. I'm very much that obstinate little butthead. And with imposter syndrome, I had a similar feeling. I noticed it was something that everybody was talking about. Everybody had imposter syndrome. There is something to be said for the shared human experience. But when I read through this article, it highlighted a couple things that I want to share here because it relates to my experience with imposter syndrome. In it, they talk about the fact that this is something where the two clinical psychologists who developed it, they have now their own complicated relationship with the thing that they developed. They said this was something that was meant to free people, specifically women, since that was really who they were targeting in their study from these feelings. And instead, it's fortifying certain things. Because in some cases, yes, there is the genuine experience of having imposter syndrome, but in other cases, it can accidentally divert attention away from what the real problem is. For example, workplaces that are not supportive of female or diverse voices from people of color. You don't have imposter syndrome. You are working within a system that is not supporting you and is creating the conditions for you to be experiencing these feelings. So the answer isn't to work on your confidence or your feelings. The answer is to look at the systems we have in place and fix them. And that is something as a, as a woman, I've experienced. But I'll admit, I'm a white woman. I am the wonder bread of white women. So I am coming from a distinct perspective of privilege. And it was funny, there was a quote in here where a woman of color said to the author, well, that just sounds like a white lady problem. And I laughed because I have had a friend of mine who is a woman of color who said the exact same thing to me. Now, with all of that architecture, I think there is a conversation we need to have about when we're having a conversation today about imposter syndrome and the symptoms that we're talking about and the experiences that people are having. We need to be very clear about the line in the sand. We are not here to perpetuate for feelings where we have a problem with the system. We're not going to growth mindset our way into pay equity and gender equity and, you know, the diversity we should be seeing in our workplaces and our teams across it. That's not how this works. But what I will say is that for me personally, I have struggled with imposter syndrome for the vast majority of my life due to one of the number one causes of imposter syndrome and that was my upbringing. I lived in a, not necessarily a hyper competitive environment. I'm an only child. But there were a lot of expectations placed on me that quite frankly, I never lived up to, never got there. This is something I've talked about on previous episodes. My relationship with imposter syndrome, my relationship with my parents was incredibly complicated. And it's something I have struggled with for a very long time because I can't remember if it was the last episode of the episode prior I mentioned I could accomplish everything that I want to do, right? Like I, I'm a business owner right now. I could go out and write that book I want to write. It doesn't matter how many hundreds or thousands of stages I speak on, no matter whatever it is, to certain parts of my family, I will always be the wasted potential college dropout. There is no success that would actually be successful in the eyes of certain people in my life. Just won't happen. And so I always feel that my spot is unearned and it's crippling sometimes. I've talked about it Before I struggle with depression, I struggle with not just I feel anxious sometimes, but genuine anxiety disorder type of things. And I could just feel my whole life sometimes just like grind to a halt, even though I'll be sitting there going, feelings aren't facts. But then the little voice in my head that's angry sometimes going, unless they are. So I'll just, just kind of get stuck. I'm getting better at it.

But you know, it's funny when you, I hear you say that, like, the thing that jumps to the forefront of my brain is this ability to understand that our spot in the world is not their spot in the world and our journey through this life is not their journey. And their inadequate understanding of what the universe expects from us and what we're trying to achieve, like that's something that they have to deal with. But the only thing that us letting ourselves kind of dive into what they think we should be, who they think we should become, the only thing that's doing is applying the brakes to who we truly can be and where we actually could go. It's interesting I do that so I.

Don'T accidentally cough or heavily breathe into something smart that you say. Okay.

Yeah, me too.

Okay. As much as I've enjoyed being in the hot seat, thank you so much for that, George. I'd love more than anything desperately to be out of that. I have a follow up question here that is relevant to our conversation. What do you see being some of the aggravating factors of imposter syndrome and its root causes? And I know I already touched on one just with familial upbringing, but I'd love to hear more from you about this.

Yeah. So first of all, Liz, let me just tell you, you're sneaky because this is actually two questions in one, by the way. Aggravating factors and root causes. Like if you break down what you just did, and when I read this, and I don't know why, but when I saw aggravating factors, my brain went to the things that agitate. And I literally, I mean, my brain is weird, but I got like this idea of the washing machine in the like, agitate cycle where it's a, like just making it do the thing. And, and, and so if we think about the things that agitate, possibly imposter syndrome moments we have in life, let's start there and then we'll dip into the root causes. Because again, I think this is two questions hidden in one. You sneaky person, you. So think of these aggravating factors as we move forward. As amplifiers, ladies and gentlemen, they don't create the music in your head, but boy, do they make it louder. So. And you'll have to let me know by replying to an email or our newsletter or sending me an email or hitting me up on social if any of these connect with who you are in the life that you live. So do you work at a place where the stakes always seem sky high and the competition is fierce? In settings like this, it's like you're constantly on stage, feeling the pressure to give an encore worthy performance. And every single time, this intensity can make anyone question if they're truly part of the band or just pretending to play along. Which, by the way, real fact used to play the French horn. And there were many a time when I would actually just act like I was playing versus playing because I had no clue what in God's name I was supposed to be playing. But what. Yes, I did. Back in the day in high school. Anyway, high pressure work environments can make it real easy to get aggravate or agitate this idea of imposter syndrome. So let's take a moment, talk about the world we live in today, where everyone's highlight reel is on full display, especially on social media. It's like looking at everyone else's glossy movie poster while you feel like you're in the blooper reel of life. This contrast between how we see others and how we view ourselves can turn up the volume on those feelings of not measuring up. In other words, it's kind of been called historically Keeping up with the Joneses, but in today's society, it is a social comparison. Do you sit there as you're scrolling through your Facebook, your Instagram, whatever it is for you, and go, oh man, my life is. Just knock it off. First of all, here's the other thing is so many of us, and I have a friend that has a real problem with this one. Not you, Liz. I have other friends. But the relentless pursuit of perfection, it's like setting the bar so high that not even the best Olympic pole vaulter could clear the freaking bar that you set. When you're caught up in this perfectionism trap, every minor mistake feels like a major flop, reinforcing the idea that maybe you don't really belong in the winner's circle after all. I've dealt with perfection. Have you? Recognizing these aggravators isn't just about putting a name to them. It's about empowering ourselves to dial down their impact. If we know that those things are out there, then we can actually have a plan to fight against them. By understanding, we can start to recalibrate our internal assessments. Cut ourselves some slack, listeners, do you need to cut yourself some slack and build a solid foundation of confidence in our own abilities? Now, Liz, let's dive into the root causes that hit my brain when I saw this question. This question of root causes isn't just about those nagging doubts we feel. It's about understanding where they come from so we can tackle them head on and grow even stronger along the way. So listeners, warning, you might want to buckle up because we're about to explore the roots of imposter syndrome. And I promise it's going to be an enlightening journey. At least it was for me during the research phase and has been as I've battled imposter syndrome along the way in my own life. So number one, Liz, Ding ding, ding ding. Family expectations and upbringing. Think back to when you were a kid. The way our family set expectations and the atmosphere we grew up in can really shape our self perception of who we are or who we're allowed to be. Whether it's the high standards we felt we had to meet or the kind of feedback we got from our folks, all these elements can sow the seeds of feeling like an imposter later in life. And we have to take time to unpack those. Number two, academic and professional environments, the places and spaces that we put ourselves. These places where we learn and work, schools and workplaces can sometimes feel like pressure cookers with like about seven exclamation marks at the end of that sentence. By the way, when there's a big emphasis on competition and being the best, it's easy to start feeling like you're not quite measuring up, feeling those imposter feelings. When I get emails that call me the goat of HubSpot. Ladies and gentlemen, duck. Take cover. Imposter syndrome is most likely heading into the center stage of my cranium. And I know it's going to happen because it's just something that triggers me. We also all have personality traits and here's an interesting twist. Sometimes it's our own traits like perfectionism that can feed into imposter syndrome. When you're always aiming for that 110%, it's tough to shake off the feeling that you're not doing enough, even when you're doing amazingly well. This, ladies and gentlemen, I believe, is my arch enemy of my life. There are so many people who say, we love being your client, we love being your friend, and I Am in the background going, and I just don't do enough. I just could do more. Why don't I give them all that I could give them? Cultural factors. By the way, Liz, you leaned into this. Our broader society and culture play a big role to this conversation, especially for folks in minority groups or anyone who feels like they constantly have to prove themselves. The weight of these expectations can amplify those feelings of being an imposter in the places of and spaces where you are trying to live and stretch beyond your default. Here's a fun one though. Success and recognition. The mountaintop where the air gets thin. It's a bit of an irony, to be honest with you, but sometimes the more successful you become, the more successful you are, the more you might feel like an imposter. It's weird, but it's absolutely freaking true. When you're recognized and given more responsibilities, it can stir up fears that maybe you're not cut out for this, even though deep down you totally are, but you just don't feel like it. Listeners, as we step forward, let's take this newfound understanding, these ideas, these aggregators, these root problems, and apply them or use them to apply fixes to our lives. Let's, let's be kind to ourselves, recognize our own worth, and embrace our journey with confidence. Let's break free from the chains of imposter syndrome and step into our light, stronger and more self assured than ever before. But Liz, I'm sure you probably have some thoughts on this too, so why don't we put you back in the hot seat for a bit.

I can never escape it for too long. Well, I already spoke to the family piece of it, but okay, I want to say a couple of things about this with the caveat of I get to be George for a moment and say, oh wow, I get hate mail for what I'm about to say. I completely understand.

There you go.

As I already alluded to, I have a complicated relationship with the idea of imposter syndrome. Not just because this is something I've struggled with on my own, but as I've already alluded to, everybody was talking about it a little bit too much. And it's one of those things where I remember looking around at one point going, just, does everybody have it? Is it like a. Is it like a contagion? I don't understand, Are we just pathologizing something? That's just confidence in some ways that we all need to work on. And again, I'm carving out the conversations that we've already had. So Far about, you know, genuine root causes of imposter syndrome or imposter syndrome being used as a crutch to not support people in places in the way that they need to be supported. Like, are you dinging someone right now at your work for quote unquote, lacking executive presence when they work in a place where they would never be able to have that confidence to begin with in a way that has nothing to do with them. Like, those are wildly different things. But the reason why I bring this up in terms of the aggravating factors is social media in a number of ways I feel has been a double edged sword that has helped people feel less alone about this idea, but also made them more prone to comparing themselves to others than ever before before. I'd even take that a step further though, and this is where the, the hate mail caveat comes in. I was someone who, from a very young age, back when, before it was popular to do so, was diagnosed with add, which is now considered adhd. What I've really struggled with as I've gotten older is, and particularly there were, there was a time period where everybody had add, everybody was getting over diagnosed with something, everybody, anytime they exhibited a symptom of not being able to, quote, pay attention, they were creating content about having add, they were creating content about all these. It was almost like this fetishizing or turning in this thing into a personality trait. And the, the downside of that for people who actually experience it like me, is number one, it diminishes the experience that I am going through. And number two, it actually made it almost impossible for a while there for me to get properly medicated for it because everybody was being over diagnosed for it. So what can happen is that when somebody has this one tiny fractional part of an experience, I've seen it happen, it becomes an their entire personality. It's all they post about online. And it takes what is a real experience to people and completely dilutes that experience overall. So again, I'm not saying that's everyone, but I do see it as an aggravating factor because just sometimes struggling with confidence is a normal thing.

Right?

You know, sometimes that's just gonna happen. Sometimes it's not that you're an imposter, it's you're brand new at something and you're gonna have to do a little motion before emotion. And we all grow through it and we all learn and we all do these things. Imposter syndrome. When you really start digging into the layers that you've been talking about George, that's where the real meaningful conversations can occur. Occur. Whether that's embracing a growing growth mindset within ourselves because it really is a feelings issue that we can work through and become more confident with ourselves, or they are symptoms of a system that is broken, that needs to be fixed. Right. Like that article I was telling you about earlier that interviewed the people who just who quote unquote discovered this thing. Well, sometimes he isn't an the answer isn't work on your feelings. Sometimes it's you need to go get more child care. Like that is you, you feel like an imposter because you were a woman who's being asked to do way too much and it's virtually impossible. Right. So that's one of the things I see is the aggravating factor is that I think like anything you see at this online, there's this tendency to embrace things wholly as a personality. You don't just read Harry Potter, it is your whole freaking identity. And we're starting to see that as these platforms incentivize people to quote, unquote, niche down and make one part of themselves their entire personality. So for me, when I see aggravating factor, that is one of the big aggravating factors. You know, social media holds up a distorted view of what the world actually looks like, what our friends lives actually look like, what the lives of influencers we follow actually look like. None of this is real. Which can then amplify genuine feelings of imposter syndrome. But I also think it's creating a definition distorted view of what imposter syndrome actually is and who has it and who deals with it. That's my little pretending to be George for a moment.

Yeah, good luck on the hate mail part. It's funny, I always make that joke. I rarely ever get it, to be honest with you, but because most people usually do tend to see and believe things in the way and it's just our ability to step out. It's funny because I think this idea of confidence and imposter syndrome are totally different. Imposter syndrome for me has always been something that's a little crippling. Confidence is something I can pretty quickly get past. And the other thing that you said too that I want to pull out there is this idea of social media in the mirror. Listen, when I hear that, it's like it's one of those fun house mirrors. That's what social media mirror is. It's one of those funhouse mirrors where everything is distorted, everything is wrong. We think that's what Reality is, but it just truly isn't.

Okay, so let's dig a little bit deeper into this because we've already touched upon the fact that we're hearing about this more and more from people. I did some digging. There is research to show that year over year people are more regularly self reporting that they are struggling with imposter syndrome. And I'd be curious to hear from you why you think we're seeing that increase.

Yeah, here's the thing. And by the way, you're right, Liz. More and more folks are feeling like they're not measuring up. And I'm super curious listeners, do any of these things ring true for you? Have you ever scrolled through your social feeds and feel like everyone else is living the dream? That's because we're usually comparing our everyday life to the best bits of others lives on social media. Liz, you alluded to this literally. That's why I brought up the funhouse mirror. This can make us feel like we're not doing as well as we should, should or could be. Do you need to limit your time on social? I know I'm stepping into a danger zone right now with this statement, but do you need to limit your time on social and your beliefs to what others lives truly are? Do you even take time to think about that? These days we're all getting better at talking about our mental health, by the way, including how we often feel like imposters. I think this is a positive, by the way. I'm bringing this one up as like, I love the fact that we're getting to a place where we can talk about mental health issues and it not be like this deep dark secret that we have to keep locked away in like a chester drawer or chest or something. The more we chat about it, the more people realize, hey, that's exactly how I feel. And they start sharing their own experiences where maybe before they just didn't know how to name it or they thought they were the only one person that dealt with it. And I have to ask, do you find yourself having this conversation and others like it with more ease than historically? Like, are you talking to more people about the things that are actually challenging you mentally in your life? I hope so. Jobs today can be super intense, by the way. I don't know if anybody's noticed, especially post pandemic with everyone aiming though to be the best of the best of the best. Plus a lot of folks are in temporary roles, there's layoffs, and now you're like in a mental stepping stone. If you will till you get to the next real thing. Be careful you're in a real thing. Even though it might not feel like a real thing, but this makes folks feel constantly like in this need to prove themselves, which can be a launching pad for feeling like an imposter. This employment pressure cooker environment that I believe that we're in can really make you doubt your own worth. But also, we have to rewind for a minute, Liz, because from a young age there's a ton of pressure to excel in school and land a great job. What do you want to be when you grow up, Johnny? This intense focus on success can plant the seeds of feeling like a fraud, which might stick around even when you're out in the working world. World. What about just letting Johnny grow up first? How about that idea? Listen, we live in a big diverse world. As our workplaces get more global and diverse, it's natural to feel the heat to fit in the heat to keep up, which can amplify the nagging doubts about whether we truly belong or not. With all the changes in how we work, learn and interact with, especially with the rise of social media and more open conversations about mental health, it's no wonder that more folks are recognizing and talking about feeling like an imposter. It's all part of our world getting more connected and frankly, a bit more complicated. So, Liz, I don't think it's necessarily a negative that we're finding this out or hearing this more, but I would say that there are some positives in it. But we got to be careful that we're not just knee jerk response labeling something that it isn't and making sure it is what it is and then knowing what to do about it.

I love what you said there because it's, it's absolutely right. You touched on something there that I was talking about earlier. Right. Like we are having an more elevated conversation around mental health. Net positive. This is good. We do, however, need to be bringing more discernment to these conversations because I think there is that tendency of, well, I'm experiencing this very specific thing. Well, clearly it's this specific thing. It's. No. For example, I could be limping on my left leg for a variety of reasons. There's why that's, that's why you go to the doctor. Is it tendinitis? Did you accidentally fracture your leg? Did you do something dumb like this? Where I once did a 05k, yes, a 05k. It was for charity. Didn't hurt myself during the 05k. It was the 00:25k walked back to my car, in which I twisted my ankle on a cobblestone. And that is how we got to that point. But I think you bring up an interesting point, is that it is incumbent upon us to have the conversations to understand what it is we are actually experiencing. We are having a shared set of experiences around a grouping of symptoms. That doesn't necessarily illuminate the root cause of what it is we have. If we think about more structured diagnoses. For example, ADD and OCD are two very different sets of symptoms, but there is a Venn diagram in which they overlap. You know, there are certain symptoms that I will share with someone who has ocd, but we require different things. We need different things. So we need to make sure that we're having those responsible conversations to understand what it is that is actually happening. Or going back to what we were talking about earlier. Is it actually a confidence issue? Is it actually a systemic issue? There are lots of different things there. And I loved what you brought up there about, like, can we just let little Johnny go to school? God, from the moment these kids are born, it's about what preschool they go to to get into the right kindergarten, to get into the right elementary school, to get into the right whatever, and are they wearing the right clothes and are they dating the right people and are they taking the right sats and are they going to the right colleges? You and I both took a non traditional path to finding our passions and our careers.

Yeah.

Could you imagine if we had tried to successfully answer question of what do you want to be when you grow up?

When we were 18, even if I did, people would be like, that's dumb, George. I want to be a marketer when I grow up.

What they also probably would have been like, what is this Internet you're speaking of?

Yeah, yeah, for sure. There was no such thing as the Internet when I was growing up. So, yeah, without a doubt.

So what I found fascinating, though, in this entire conversation is that clinical psychologists who coined this phenomena, they forcefully state that success does not really cure imposter syndrome. Oh, look at you. You're stretching before this answer. You're like, all right, I'm ready to get into this. To get into this.

I've been waiting for this question, ladies.

And gentlemen, which I love because it's one I'm directing toward you. What are ways in which you've personally experienced or created the means by which you've been able to alleviate imposter syndrome within yourself and for yourself?

It's a mind game, ladies and gentlemen. It's. It's all in your brain. That's the thing we got to remember. So, Liz, I try to realize I'm exactly where I need to be. I try to realize I'm exactly who I'm meant to be. I try to realize that perfection is not reality. And I think maybe those three things are my attempt to have self compassion. Practicing self compassion involves treating myself, yourself with the same kindness and understanding that you would offer a friend in the same situation. How many times do you come to save others, but you don't come to save yourself? And those three things that I try to remember, I'm trying to be there to save myself mentally recognizing that everyone makes mistakes and that perfection is an unattainable goal can help reduce the pressure that I that you put on yourself and alleviate feelings of fraudulence. But I also, Liz, focus on a growth mindset in my life and knowing that embracing a growth mindset, where you see challenges as opportunities to learn and grow, rather than threats to your intelligence or competence, can help mitigate feelings of being an imposter. Like, I feel like I need to say that again for somebody who is listening. If you're on this path of embracing a growth mindset where you see challenges as opportunities, opportunities to learn and grow, then you have to understand that those moments in time are not threats to your intelligence or your competence. So many humans, so many humans realizing that your abilities and smarts come from efforts and sticking to it, not just being born with them, can make you feel more rightful about your success. I try to realize that I'm not on an island and I'm not alone. I am not a castaway, and my best friend is not Wilson. Realizing that others, even very successful people, also feel like imposters, can make you feel better. I often run scenarios in my brain of like, Steve Jobs once felt like an imposter. Bill Gates probably feels like an imposter. All of these people that we set on pedestals at some point in their life, if not daily, weekly, or monthly, for feel like imposters.

Neil Armstrong just went where he was sent.

Yeah. And felt like an imposter. Exactly right. So it's a common feeling. And knowing that it's a common feeling can help ease the stress when you're feeling that feeling. But a huge one that I think a lot of us need to embrace is understanding our worth. The reason that you're put on this planet, it's not based on your achievements, believing that your value as a person is not solely determined by your professional success or job performance can help alleviate, mitigate whatever words you want in there that works for you. These feelings of being an imposter. Recognize and appreciate the diverse qualities and contributions you bring to those around you every single day. Recognize and appreciate the contributions you bring to those around you every single day. I feel like I should say that seven times till it sinks into the people's brains that are just like not allowing that to come in where it needs to be. But it is not about what you achieve. It is what you are doing to those and for those around you while you're achieving it. Liz, what are your thoughts?

I have a couple. This is that part in the episode where once a week I remind people that therapy is a good thing. Talk to someone, go do thing. The reason why I talk about it so much is because I think people are. I have to go see a therapist. Whenever I hear someone saying they go to therapy, I'm like, you know, good for you. I wish more people did it. In a world that has become increasingly more isolated, confusing concerning talk to someone. This is particularly important if when George was talking earlier about the root causes of imposter syndrome, whether they be systemic, whether they be unrealistic, pressures that came from within your family, toxic or abusive circumstances like that means imposter syndrome is part of a wild array of Technicolor symptoms you are likely experiencing in your life and you may want to talk about them and it is okay that you should want to talk about them now. Moving on from my usual yay therapy bandwagon, number one, I've normalized nerves and having them. This reminds me a lot of our conversation around toxic positivity, where the moment we accept experience a negative emotion, we try to kill it. We try to kill it with fire. And we look at the presence of a negative emotion as a sign that something like warning, warning, warning, something is wrong. One of the things I have attempted to cultivate specifically over the past 18 months as I've gone through the divorce, the move, everything exploding is I have forced myself to learn how to sit with uncomfortable emotions. I have forced myself to sit with them because it takes me out of a state of avoidance. It also allows me to normalize what I just said nerves. If I have a new project that a client sends to us, George, and it's something I've never done before, I sometimes have to just be like, okie dokie. I have never done this before and I just accept the fact that it's okay to be Nervous and my feelings don't dictate my actions. Yeah, there's this great turn of phrase that came from the book Atomic Habits by James Clear that says motion before emotion. If you're waiting to feel good about something before you do something, you're gonna be waiting forever. And there's part of me that's just like, go to therapy, take care of the things that you need to take care of. But you need to learn to cultivate the ability to sit with uncomfortable things and not let them kill you like you have. This is one of those moments where this is less about a worksheet, it's less about a thing, and it's more about normalizing that sometimes. Like again, leaving aside the massive conversations we need to have about systemic inequalities, when we're talking about the basics of blocking and tackling of I'm sitting here with a task that feels hard. If you were overly confident right now, I would be concerned. It's like the person who walks out of a test and they're overly confident, they're more than likely the one who did the worst on the test. The other thing was taking success out of the equation entirely has been really helpful because what I found often is that I it with my brain's like a little computer, right? And it's a little operating system. Like it'll get a little particle of dust in it and all of a sudden everything kind of screeches to a halt. Because what I was doing was I was over emphasizing the importance of a specific task. That is not a test to see whether or not you belong at the table. It's just a blog article that needs to be written. Just write it. Just write it. What if you were just like, yes, I feel nervous about this and I'm just going to go ahead and start writing that first sentence. I think sometimes we over inflate the importance of some of the tasks that are put in front of us. George is not sitting here waiting as a great judge, jury and executioner based on one particular project. And I'm using you as an example, George, because you're the person I collaborate with the most. Yeah, but those were things where I kind of had to teach myself throughout my career. It's the spotlight effect. I think we've talked about this before. There are studies that we genuinely believe people think about us way more than they they actually do. We tend to live in a me centric type of existence. And that reminder of the things that I'm doing, like, I am not here to to cure cancer. I'm not here to do all these things. Nobody's looking at me or thinking about me nearly as much as I think they are. These things that I'm working on, these are not life or death things. Just calm down a little bit. I find that to be really, really helpful. So that's what I mean by taking success out of the equation. I got to the point where I was living and dying moment by moment, and that is no way to live. The solution there wasn't to suddenly see brimming success and excitement in everything I was doing. It was normalizing that I was just doing stuff. And sometimes I'm just gonna be nervous about it. And when it got a little too crazy, then I go talk to my therapist about it.

So, you know, it's funny because when you say that, and I don't know if we've ever talked about this on the podcast, but there is something that is quite dramatic that I started to do in my later years, and that was to quit focusing on being successful and focus on being successful. Significant, because there's a different measuring stick, there's a different mental model that you start to use when you're not wrapped up in being successful, but you just have this innate understanding that you're being of significance to those around you.

I love that you don't know what the last thing is that I remind myself of.

What?

I remind myself of the Godfather.

Oh, here we go.

That's right. I believe that one of the most fundamental flaws in our ways of thinking as humans is that we believe that when greatness shows up as it is immediately recognized that as soon as a brilliant idea is born and someone expresses it from their lips they haven't even created, they talk about it out loud. That everybody's like, oh, my God, you're so stinking smart. You are amazing. You are going to break ground. You are going to do all of these incredible things. No, history has shown us it's quite the opposite sometimes in really terrible ways. Just look at Galileo and Socrates. Galileo was excommunicated from the church, and Socrates was invited to take a very special beverage that put him into a forever sleep. When people counter what the norms are in society, they are shunned. Now, the Godfather is another great example of it that's a little less depressing, which is why I want to talk about about it here for a moment. Francis Ford Coppola was the director of the Godfather, one of the greatest movies ever made that then gave birth to Godfather Part 2, another one of the greatest movies ever made. Like two pieces of unimpeachable cinema. As long as I have been alive and have taken breath into my body, there has never been a moment where that has ever been in question. Even before I had seen it, everybody said, you gotta see it. You got it. It's one of the best or both the best movies ever made. Francis Ford Coppola didn't want to make that movie. He didn't want to make it. He thought the book that it was based on was trash. By the way, I have read that book. It's something. There's a difference between the movie and the books. Number two, the only reason he took it is because George Lucas was like, bro, we really need money to fund this studio that we want to do. That ended up being a complete failure by the way. So like just go take the quick money and do it. They hired him. He was the 12th director they hired. They didn't even want him to do it. And then he wanted Al Pacino and Marlon Brando, two of the greatest actors to have ever lived. And guess what? Hollywood didn't want either of them. Because at the time Al Pacino was a short, high pitched voiced actor from who did stage in New York who nobody had ever heard of. And Marlon Brando was a washed up has been. They also wanted to take the Godfather and take it from post World War II New York City in Italy and move it to St. Louis, Missouri in the 1970s to save money. There was then also someone who worked at Paramount Pictures who was actively taking the dailies, which are daily cuts of a movie and messing with them to make it look like Francis Ford Coppola didn't know what he was doing in the hopes that he would be then replacing him as director. It did not work. Leading up to the release of the movie, everybody there was a Greek chorus of tragedy around this movie. It's starring a has been. Who the heck is Al Pacino? Francis Ford Coppola doesn't know what he's doing. His director of cinematography looks like he's filming everything inside of a coffin. It's so dark. Everything was just a Greek tragedy like chorus of doom and gloom. And this is going to fail. And the moment it was released in theaters, it became a classic. Yeah, it succeeded in spite of its detractors. So whenever I'm feeling super down and out, I remind myself that I am the Godfather. Maybe there have been Greek tragedy choruses throughout my life telling me I can't do something, but damn it all, I am a Historic movie. And that is the world I choose to live in.

So I'm gonna pull the pin and drop the grenade. I can't help but notice you didn't mention Godfather 3.

We did not speak of that. They should have just paid Robert Duvall the 5 million extra that he wanted, and that's a fundamentally different movie. All he wanted was equity of pay with freaking Al Pacino.

Sorry, listeners. I did it on purpose.

You did do that. But you know what Godfather 3 did give us, and this is your fault for pulling this pin? A scene of young Andy Garcia and.

A. Oh, here we go.

Thank you. Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you so much for coming today. No, I'm kidding. So let's get back on track here.

Yes.

What advice do you have for someone suffering from imposter syndrome?

Yeah, I think there's two different directions that we need to go in here. I think there's practical exercise that we can lean into, and I think there's this idea of cultivating the confidence that we need when this shows up or rears its ugly head. So we're going to kind of head in that direction. When you start doubting yourself too much, here are some simple tricks, tips, hacks that I feel will help with you maybe getting that confidence back again. 1. List your wins. Okay? Jot down what you've achieved and the skills that you've used to achieve those things. Look back at this list when you're feeling down to remind yourself of what of what you are actually capable of. 2. Liz, you alluded to this, but chat about it, talk about it, get it out. Right. Talk to someone you trust about how you're feeling. You'll likely find out you're not the only one who feels like an imposter. Sometimes another one is change negative thoughts. When a negative thought pops up like I was just lucky, switch it to something more positive, such as I pops up like I was just lucky, switch it to something more positive, such as, I really worked hard for this. Because sometimes we say things and it just takes our power away. I can't tell you the amount of times I've been yelled at by Liz by saying, oh, I'm just a guy. Do not, I'm just a guy. Breathe and be mindful. By the way, if you're feeling overwhelmed, take a moment to focus on your breathing. This can help you calm your mind and bring you back to the present moment. Also, you can picture your success. I'm a big fan of this one. Ever since I was a kid, I Remember hearing a story about downhill skiers envisioning the actual path that they were going to take before they even left the gate? But close your eyes and remember a time you did well and felt confident. This can help you change your mood and how you see yourself. Before you head off to do the thing that you're about to do. Use affirmations. Tell yourself positive things like, I'm skilled and deserve my success. Saying these things out loud can boost your confidence in the moment. Break tasks down. If a big project is scaring you, break it into smaller parts. Completing these can give you a confidence boost, which helps you keep going. Get feedback. Hearing from others about what you do well and what you can improve on can give you a clearer and more balanced view of yourself. Keep learning. Take classes or find ways to build your skills. This can make you feel more confident and successful. And write it down. Keep a freaking journal. I suck at this one, by the way, but I keep coming back to that. I should probably write more stuff down that I don't write down. Write it down. Keep a journal of your fears, achievements and thoughts. This can help you understand and manage these feelings of being an imposter. Using those steps can help you handle times when you doubt yourself, allowing you to appreciate and celebrate your own your own success more along the way. Now, cultivating confidence and kindness for oneself in general, not just in the moments where imposter syndrome can strike. Boosting your confidence and being kind to yourself is a journey that can really help you feel better and stand strong against those imposter syndrome vibes. And so here are a couple ways that I want you to think about that can build that inner cheerleader for yourself and treat yourself more with love. And that's the key word there, by the way. You have to love yourself before you can really love others. Ladies and gentlemen, be your best friend. Treat yourself as kindly as you would treat a close friend. Recognize when you're struggling. Allow yourself to feel your feelings and remember that nobody's perfect. Talk to yourself. And not in a weird like you need to go somewhere away, but just in a way that you can. Talk to yourself positively. Keep an eye on what you're telling yourself inside your head. We've literally done an entire episode on this, by the way. When you catch yourself being negative, try to switch it up to something positive and encouraging. Make achievable goals. Set goals that you know you can hit. Every time you reach one, you'll feel a boost in your confidence because it's proof of what you can do. And always celebrate the little wins. Don't wait for the big victories to feel proud. So celebrate the small stuff too. It all adds up to a stronger, more positive view of yourself. Keep learning. See challenges as chances to grow. Mistakes. They're just part of learning. Remember, skills and smarts get better with time and effort. I'm about to preach to myself for a second. Take care of yourself. Do things that make your body and your mind feel good, like exercising, eating well, getting enough sleep and finding time to relax. Yep, okay. Choose positive people. Hang out with folks who lift you up and believe in you. A good support circle can be a powerful boost when you're feeling down. Practice mindfulness. Try mindfulness or meditation to stay in the now and ease up on the self criticism. These practices can help you be a gentler or be gentler with yourself and skill up. Keep building your abilities and knowledge in areas that matter to you. It's a great way to feel more competent and confident. And this one hashtag Blessing Bomber. There's an episode on this Give Back. Helping others can make you feel good about yourself, give you a sense of purpose. It reminds you of the good you can do in the world. Stick with these steps and over time you'll likely find yourself feeling more self assured and kinder to yourself, ready to face those moments of doubt with a stronger, more positive mindset. In other words, a better you.

So if you could leave our listeners with one challenge as they go into this week for them to see the brighter, bolder, better side of themselves that you know, others see them within them with ease, what would that be?

Yeah, listeners. And by the way, Liz, I would challenge myself and you with this too. Listeners, here's a cool challenge for you to try out next week. Every night, spend a little time on a positive reflections exercise. Jot down three special things from your day. Spot your strength. That one's going to be hard, by the way. I think for a lot of people, like being able to spot your strength. Think about a moment when you used one of your strengths. Maybe you kept your cool in a hectic moment, came up with a clever fix for a tricky issue, or showed someone a little kindness. Give yourself a pat on the back for how that strength made your day better and then celebrate a win. And what's funny is I do this. By the way. I have a meeting with my team almost five days a week and we have a section that is daily win and most times it's crickets. Celebrate a win. It doesn't need to be a big deal Maybe you finally tackled that thing you've been putting off, cooked up something healthy, or had a great input in a meeting. Notice these wins help you see how capable and effective you are. And the last thing is be nice to yourself. What's one nice thing you did just for you today? Maybe you took a breather, enjoyed a hobby, or did something that felt good. Writing this down is a reminder that taking care of yourself is important. So start seeing yourself in a more positive light. Start to see how others might see the awesome sides of you. This little routine can help you appreciate your own value and achievements, chipping away at those imposter feelings and giving your self esteem a nice little boost as you navigate through this life beyond your default.