Worksheet: How to Deal with the Stress and Pressure of Agency Ownership with Pete Brand

All right, welcome into episode number 162 of the agency Journey podcast. This is Gray. And this week I have the pleasure of bringing back for a part two, Pete Brand from Mindscape. Pete, how you doing, man?

I'm doing really good. Thanks for having me back, man.

I'm glad to have you on. I'll challenge the very well or very good that you're doing here in a little bit as we get to it. That's one of the big things that. The big reason that I wanted to bring you on was to kind of talk about the life of an agency owner and how we balance that stress with what we've got going on in our personal lives and like, mental health side of things. Slash, just kind of personal development side of things. But before we get to that, we talked a little about Mindscape and some of the things that you guys are up to when we connected here at the beginning of the year. But any big updates on the agency itself? Anything new and exciting with Mindscape?

Yeah, I think when I talked with you, we were really simplifying our sales process and being a lot more structured about the way we were approaching it. We had literally 20 consecutive weeks of new business that we brought in that led up to about the middle of June, which was a little insane, but it really made me a big believer in having a sales process that you actually follow and use a CRM to track it. But yeah, it's really, really solid. Then of course, we hit the summer doldrums and nobody's thinking about business again. And now we're back in fall going, alright, guys, it's gonna get cold soon. Let's start thinking about business. So, as always, the agency world is up and down, but no, it's been going good. We won an impact award in the second quarter from HubSpot for sales enablement, which was pretty awesome. We. We helped a client crush it. About, I think it was. I might get these numbers reversed, but 23% revenue increase and a 17% close rate improvement after helping them implement the CRM, which they had tried seven or eight other CRMs or a bunch of them, and none of them ever worked. And this one was right on. So it was great.

That's a big. I mean, 17% is huge from a close rate perspective.

Yeah.

To make that jump, was it like standardizing the sales process or was it like, what was the big thing that switched the trigger there?

It was standardizing the sales process, but giving a tool, you know, having a tool that they actively used as an organization. To track all of the interactions. So they weren't relying on memory anymore. And they were just, you know, just had a process, just like we learned from our process.

Right, Right. Okay.

Huh.

That's. That's crazy. You mentioned. It was funny. You mentioned the, like, the summer slow time, which definitely hits here in the States. And I didn't realize until we got into, like, the software space with Zen Pilot, formerly Do Inbound, and started working with a lot of European customers that, like, summer holidays are a real thing. Like, you know, to us, things definitely slow down in the agency space here in the States, things would slow down a little bit. And, you know, you'd have Fourth of July as a bad time, and then you'd have people going on family vacations kind of throughout July and first part of August, for the most part. Some people end of June. But trying to get anything pushed through with a whole bunch of. Especially with the software, a whole bunch of European customers. Like, the holidays, there aren't like a long weekend here or there, maybe a week off. It's like we're taking three weeks off and going somewhere else. It's like literally nothing gets done during the summer. I probably just insulted a whole bunch of people who were. Who are over there. But that was a cultural experience. That was kind of funny to learn from.

Yeah. I don't know so much that you're insulting them as complimenting them on their understanding of how life really should be.

I think it's amazing to be able to take. You think about trying to take three weeks in a row off, and I've done that. I think the only times that I've done that is after the kids. We get three little kids right now and have taken. Actually, after the most recent one, I get most of three weeks off, but was on a little bit after week one, which is probably not the healthiest way to go about things. But.

Yeah, I can honestly say in the 30 years that I've been working after being out of high school, I've never taken three weeks off. And that's sad.

Yeah. Well, so here was the thing that kind of, I think, initially prompted me wanting to talk about this with you was when I learned about the hiking thing and you getting into going hiking every day. So first of all, is that still happening? Is that still something that you do? Are you hiking every day?

I'm not hiking every day. Okay.

But.

But I'm hiking a lot. You know, you typically. I just got done leading as a hiking leader for Make a Wish foundation, where I trained a Group of hikers over the course of about two and a half months to be able to hike a 21 mile hike in one day. We just did that two weekends ago and it was phenomenal experience. But yeah, so I'm still getting out in the woods as much as I can.

Okay. So I'm trying to figure out the best place to start here. And that might be the best place to start is what got you into hiking in the first place. And then ultimately kind of just want to talk about some of the, like what are the healthy practices or what are the things that we've learned from mistakes and from trying to make those a little bit better. As far as how do we balance running an agency and the day to day stress of that with also being a well rounded person and not succumbing to the stress and buying into the. Not that anyone, I think, consciously buys into it, but we kind of subconsciously. It's very easy to fall into the trap of however the agency is doing that defines who I am as a person and takes over part of that. That definitely becomes a big part of our identity, especially if we don't guard against having some separation there. So maybe we start with what initially got you into hiking.

Sure. Well, I always used to camp and do stuff like that when I was younger. And then all of a sudden you have kids and you get into life and you stop doing it. Got a little bit introspective. And I thought, you know, why, as we get older and have more resources and more control over our schedules, do we stop doing the things that brought us lots of joy when we were younger? And it didn't make any sense to me. And it was probably right around that same time that I kind of came to that realization that we were going through a buyout and buying out business partners. We had minority business partners who had been with us for about eight years. And we made the decision that we were going to attempt to buy them out. And it took us about a year to be able to work that out. And it was, you know, it was challenging. I can't really say a lot, obviously, but it was really stressful and challenging. And the last three months of the buyout negotiations, my business partner ended up having a really serious injury and almost passed away. And so I was dealing with it a lot on my own. And then we got out of the buyout, we were back on our own, and I was excited, or at least felt like I should be excited. And then all of a sudden my body just took a dump and it was all of the stress and all of the anxiety and everything that went through that entire year caught up to me and just crushed me and finally got to the point I went and talked to a therapist. And the therapist was explaining to me, like, you seem to be a little intense. Have you always been this way? And I'm like, yeah. And he said, do you think it's healthy? And I was like, well, it better be. But he really helped me understand the need to decompress and have little times of decompression throughout the day so that you can help mitigate some of the anxiety and the stress that you experience when you're running really hot all the time. And then that led me into getting out in the woods and just kind of bathing in nature and beauty and being by myself and. And just being at peace and realizing that that really is living and not the stress and anxiety that I get all wrapped up in. So it was a huge, huge difference.

For me was that, like, the first thing that you went to was getting outside. I mean, because a lot of people have different hobbies or different ways that they try to. And I think, especially at least from my personal experience and people I've talked to, like, we live so much on the computer that the farther I get away from the computer, the easier it is. But is that the first thing that you went to, or did you kind of. Did you think about it strategically at all as far as here's what I can go do to decompress, or was that just instantly the answer?

No. I actually started out with meditation. I started studying about Transcendental meditation, which I've heard a lot of really good things about. And I didn't want to pay the money to go through the course. And plus, I'm kind of cynical. So I just figured out, you know, how to do it without going through a class. And I would do that in my office sometimes and people would walk in. It would be awkward. But what I really realized is as I was walking and hiking and moving, it's very similar to a meditation. Especially when you're out in the woods and, you know, you're just. You just kind of get lost in that trail and looking at stuff. And I found that I was a lot better at that because my brain at times is so scattered and all over the place, it's hard to get it to quiet down. I still do meditate from time to time, especially when I'm having those really stressful times. But I feel like a nice 8, 9, 10 mile hike can really get you in that meditative state. And afterwards I feel absolute peace when I'm done. So I love it.

Right, well, so what I wanted to do, I don't think that there's. That's not true. I was going to say, I don't think there's that many people that would debate or say like, we shouldn't get a breakaway and we shouldn't, decompression isn't important and that might not be true. Actually, there probably are. In fact, I can think of some people who. And whatever the excuse is, it's, I'm young, like, this is the time in life when I can work this way or like I'm just wired differently, I can do it. But I think there's enough empirical data and evidence to say that it actually is good, good and healthy to take a break. But what I kind of want to do is throw some of the objections at you and just figure out, like, how do we. Not as proof across the board that this is the best way to combat it, but from your personal experience, like, how do you do this stuff? So obviously the biggest one is like, I just don't have time for it. Where did you, how did you fit in? And you said an eight or nine mile hike. I'm sure that might not be where it started, but how do you fit that into your schedule? And how did you start doing that? Was it hard to start the habit because of that?

Yeah, I kind of had some of that head trash where I wanted to be a martyr and say, I don't have time for that. I'm too busy building the agency, making sure my employees are doing well, you know, getting out in the community, making an impact there, doing all this stuff. And so I really felt like, and I know it seems like when you're making the excuse of I don't have enough time that you're, you know, it's because you're doing all this good for other people. But the bottom line is if you aren't taking care of yourself, you don't have the capacity or ability to give or serve other people very well. And I really learned that when I was having my anxiety problems for about a year after that, you know, after getting away from the partners is, you know, it was, that was. It was really, really difficult to get out of that dark place. So. But yeah, so I think what we have to realize is if we don't find the time to invest in ourselves and take care of ourselves and make sure that we're in a good place to be able to effectively serve other people. We're not going to be able to do it. So I really kind of do think that the excuse of I don't have enough time is bullshit, because we can find the time. I was waking up at 5 o' clock in the morning and hiking three or four miles. And then I would hike at 10 o' clock at night, maybe do another three or four miles. My wife was really understanding in the very beginning. She didn't get it, but she started to when she started to see that I was a better product in the end, and it all worked out really well.

Hmm. Did you have. Were you. Was it always solo hiking? Did you start with somebody?

No, I really enjoy solo hiking. I get more and more people now that asked to go with me, which is really nice to be able to go out and chat with them. But being out there by myself is better than anything. And I was scared in the beginning. I mean, you know, I got a big bushy beard and all this other stuff. And so it's not like I'm going to worry about human beings or whatever. But you have the fear of the unknown when you're out in the woods. And once I realized there's really not anything to be scared of, it just went a lot easier.

Man, what a journey. You were talking, you were telling me before we hit record here, just about putting together, like this worksheet right now. So obviously things have evolved. Well, actually, let me ask that question, too. When was this? How many years ago did you start. Did you go through this experience and start hiking?

I've been hiking for the last three or four years, on and off. But when I really made my commitment, it was January 1, 2017. And that was when I made the commitment to hike every single day, set a goal of hiking 2200 miles. And I actually, when I got through, I had the flu. Two different periods, you know, with the stomach flu. And I didn't skip hiking. I waited until I threw up because I knew I would have about an hour where you feel better. So I waited. I took advantage of that hour. I went and hiked three, three miles, came back and then was sick again. But at least I kept, you know, I kept the track going. I didn't want to stop, but it was remarkable. It's amazing, first of all, how physically strong you get when you're doing something like that, how much the stress just melts away. And I went through an entire year where I really didn't feel or experience any stress. And it was just because I was giving myself a constant dose of decompression time and focusing on the things that helped me feel grounded and in the moment. So it was pretty amazing.

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So then what I was going to ask was you mentioned this worksheet that you put together. Try and kind of work through the things that come up. Obviously the day to day stressors that come up. Can you tell us about what that looks like or what prompted putting that together?

Yeah, it was, you know, like typically with me, as the evening goes on and it gets close to bedtime, that's when the anxiety will start to increase, start to think about the next day, all the things you have to do, the things that may not have gone right and then it's really hard to shut down your brain and go to sleep. So I realized that when I am experiencing anxiety, it's all just thoughts and I'm Putting way too much emotion and feeling into those thoughts. So I basically just created a worksheet that's got a few different questions that I can walk through and I'll give them to you really quick. The first one is what is the challenge? So that helps you get out on paper what it is that's really bothering you. And then the next question is, what thought is driving the anxiety? I like to really fill that out because typically when I'm feeling anxious, it's like one thought leads to another thought to another, to another, and all of them are more and more negative until the point where the world ends or something. But it helps you get it out and look at it. And when I look at it, I realize how ridiculous it is. But then it goes to the next question, which is it reasonable? That outcome is imminent? And most of the time, no, it's just something that we're fabricating in our minds. So then the next question is what can be done to prevent the negative outcome? So that helps you get into problem solving mode and start to make a list of different actions or activities that you can complete. And then the final question is what action can be taken in the next 24 hours? Because especially if it's at night when I'm feeling anxious before I go to bed, it's if I have a list of three or four or five items that I'm going to tackle first thing in the morning, then my brain can go take a rest and I can forget about it because I know I've got it captured and I don't have to worry about what I'm going to do next.

Right. That's a really cool worksheet. It's kind of like, and I don't know if this is the goal, this might be a little bit different, but like Tim Ferriss talks about, and I'm sure it didn't originate from him, but maybe it did, I don't know. Negative visualization or just kind of picturing what's the worst case scenario? And that's a way to become comfortable with what are the possible negative outcomes that could happen here and also then figure out what is the likelihood that that actually happens Very, very small. Or if it is not small, what are the, you know, what's the action plan to get around it?

Right. Well, it feels to me like business owners or especially agency owners, we're kind of control freaks, right?

100%.

Yeah. And anxiety is caused because we feel like there's a lack of control. So I feel like that sheet gets me Back to the point where, okay, like, here are the things that I can actually control to prevent that, you know, or mitigate the likelihood of that negative event occurring. So it does. It kind of pulls me back to the point where I realize I do have some control. Maybe not over the circumstances or the environment, but I do over the actions I take. And it just. It's a. It's a practice to get back to that and get more centered.

Right. Have you found. And I'm sure every. Everyone's wired differently. Has community been. I mean, we've talked a lot about things that you've kind of done largely on your own. Obviously, with you talk to a therapist, which is a great first step, and your wife was supportive. So there's certainly some community. Have you. Has any part of this been conversations with other business owners or other people in similar situations, or has it largely been kind of that small, tight community and then you kind of having these daily practices on your own?

Oh, no. Yeah. I was part of a mentoring program for the last three years. I just graduated last summer in 2017. But basically, we get matched up with a retiring or an older CEO who's been extremely successful in an entrepreneurial business. And we meet with them every two weeks to be able to talk through our business, share our P and L, whatever, just to get some guidance. And I really felt like he was my shoulder to cry. And I still remember a conversation where I was like, man, it's so stressful. The pressure is just about crushing me. I don't know how I'm going to do. When does this stuff end? And he looked across the table and said, I'll let you know if it ever does. And I said, so this is what I signed up for. And he goes, yep. And I said, okay, I can handle that as long as I can realize that it doesn't have to do with me. I do have a really, really solid community. And I'm not one of those people that's going to say things are going great when they're not. I'm very open and transparent, and I would rather tell somebody the real way that it feels instead of just making up some stuff.

Right. So two things. I think this principle. I talked about this a lot with people at Inbound here a couple weeks ago, and I don't know if I would ever. It seems like this is something that I've kind of realized more in the last. Specifically this year, 2018. Is that the reward for talking to a lot of younger agency owners at Inbound and the feeling That I got, it sounded like myself when we started the agency seven years ago, like, we just need to get through this first year and then we'll have the traction, like everything will start to pan out and even out and stuff. And I didn't really realize until this past year, maybe consciously put it together, that the reward for doing your job well and the business growing is that you get more complex, larger problems. That's always the reward for success. The reward for failure might be that you get another opportunity to simplify, move back. And that's obviously not what we're shooting for. But the more that you succeed, or the more that at least externally succeed, the reward is just bigger implications because business is a huge momentum game, just larger implications for the actions and decisions that you make and take. So there's never a point where this gets the things that you're doing today, after you've done them for a year, those things get easier, but the new things that you're doing are just as challenging as they are now. So it's not like this is something that you can put off and just deal with and then all of a sudden life will be easy and pan out. It just gets. It's increasing complexity, not reducing complexity. So I think that realization and that story that you talked about, the CEO, that same thing, that this doesn't go away regardless of how externally successful you are, kind of highlights the need to figure out what are we going to do to deal with this now, not put it off for the future and assume that we'll be able to solve it. So that stuck out to me right away from that story.

Yeah. No, I completely agree. It's kind of like if you want to use that excuse of I don't have time, look in the mirror and say, how's that working out for me?

Right.

You can't keep doing the same stuff and piling on and on and on. It's not going to get any better until you figure out a way to deal with it. And frankly, everybody else will. Thank you for taking the time to figure that out.

Right. The other thing that stuck out to me, though, was the idea of contrast. That we don't know what light is without dark. We don't know what hot is without. Obviously, all the cliches for contrast. But when you are more honest with people about how you're doing, it means that when you say I'm doing well, at least in my experience, people are more excited. It's easier to relate, it's easier to build trust when people know you're just shooting straight. And some people will. I'm sure that they're the people who are like, why are you Debbie Downer here? And you can't just say, like, I'm having a good time. It kind of brings my mood down. But I love that the people who are just honest about that. Doesn't mean that every single person that you talk to, you're laying out. You need to pick and choose the right situations, but just be honest about how things are going right now. And that to me, especially in the marketing space, and I don't know, because this is largely the world that I've lived in. I haven't bounced around in different industries. I don't know if it's just a function of. We're in marketing, and the perception of marketing is we dress things up to the nth degree and make them look as good as they can possibly be. I'm sure part of it is just human nature. But that same thing carrying over into, like, every agency out there, statistics say, can't all be going the best that they've ever gone. So we know that it's not all true. And yet that same lie perpetuates itself.

I know. I feel like some of that stuff is generational. And again, I'm not trying to insult anybody, but, like, you weren't. But I feel like the. The people that have been around in doing this for a much longer time tend to be more concerned with appearances. And you can't tell people that you're not doing well because then they won't want to hire you because then they'll think your company's going to go out of business or whatever. There's this fear of actually being able to be real. And I feel as though the millennial generation and even some of the Generation X, I'm an Xer, but I feel like some of us are more able to be open and transparent with how things are really going, because, frankly, people like to help people out who need it, you know, And I think if you're able to be vulnerable and talk about the way that it really is, people aren't going to push you away. Chances are they're going to see how they can help. And so there are some other benefits that come from that, I think.

Right. Well, I think that's a really good point. This has been helpful just to have the conversation. So I want to kind of ask this question for you as we wrap up, Pete, which is you're talking to someone in my situation or someone who's Even an earlier stage in the business, you know, in their first couple years of the business, really, at any point, but. And they're feeling that it's not. You know, they're not to the point where they are. They probably don't think of themselves as being depressed. Maybe not. You know, if they went and saw someone, they wouldn't necessarily say they were. They wouldn't say they're depressed, but they feel the weight of the business and they feel like this is a climb that just never ends and don't know where to go or who to talk to about that. They might have a spouse or someone who they kind of have hints of those conversations with, but feel like especially that family dynamic can be tricky too, where you feel like you need to put on a certain face to. Especially as an entrepreneur to reassure your spouse that things are okay. What would be if we put together that same kind of worksheet for. Here's the action plan in terms of how would we sequence this? And here's how I would approach this. Any thoughts on where you would tell them to start and then go from there?

Yeah, I think the first place I would tell them to start is realize that whether it's depression or whether it's anxiety, it's just a thought. And it's a thought that's popping up in your head and you're attaching meaning to it and you're attaching emotion to it. So I think the first thing is to notice that and recognize that that's what's happening and then just dissect it. I mean, if your brain is going to be the thing that creates the thought, it's also going to be the thing where. Where you can poke holes in the theory of that thought and realize that it's not really that true. So we give the power to the thoughts that are negative just as much as we do the thoughts that are positive. So we have. As control freaks, right? We have control. We just have to figure out how to navigate it and get to the point where we have clarity and understanding.

Right. That makes a lot of sense. Does that. I haven't heard a lot of people talk about this before that like just recognizing that it's just a thought, it's just something happening in your head. Does that come from TM or where does that. Where does that come from?

I've had another mentor that I've been working with probably for the last six or seven years who I believe has a really good command of, you know, life and presence and all that stuff. And he's actually worked with me to recognize those thoughts and recognize those events as they're occurring and not try to stop them, but, like, feel them and realize what it really is and what's at the crux of that issue or that feeling. And I think the more aware we are, the better we can navigate. Just like, you just have to know, you gotta have some tools and know really what's happening. Because anxiety or depression or whatever, like, you're either living in the future with anxiety or you're living in the past with depression. But if you take a moment to just be in the moment and realize there's not a lion that's going to eat me, I actually feel pretty good with my body. I've hydrated well. I'm watching my nutrition, I'm getting my sleep, I'm moving and exercising. If you're taking care of those things, I think it's a lot easier. You're in control of the main elements that are gonna determine your quality of life. But I feel like then you can take control of those thoughts, too, and just start to start to realize when they're. When you're going down a negative path and pull yourself back a little bit.

Yeah, that's really good. That's. For me, I don't spend as much time as I would like to on my own outside. I enjoy fishing a lot and do very little of it. But I coach high school baseball. And that time for me, preparing practice plans and communication with parents and players. That part is not relaxing. The part to me that is the most relaxing is the actual two hours of practice time we're out on the field. And it's just follow the script. You're using your body, you're interacting. There's energy, a lot of positive energy going on for the most part, as long as we're having a good practice. And that, to me, has been one of the things that helps to kind of keep me collected and put together is that opportunity to get out. So figuring out whatever that physical outlet is, I think is absolutely huge.

Yeah, that's great.

Good. Well, I really appreciate you coming on and sharing about this, Pete. I think just having the conversation is helpful in the specific kind of point of attack that you shared in your story is helpful. If people want to check out, obviously, the agency we are mindscape.com, we'll have that in the show Notes. Is there anywhere else you'd want to point people, Pete?

Sure. I have a podcast that's hosted on Podbean, which is Hike your own hike. And those are five to ten minute episodes. When I'm out hiking and have a thought and I just share it. I capture a lot of that stuff for my kids because I'm an old dad and have five kids and I know I'm not going to be on the planet forever and I'd like to be able to create digital content so they have. They can at least learn some of the things that I'm picked up over time and apply that to their lives even when I'm not here any longer. A little morbid, but I think about that stuff.

That's. That's awesome. Cool. So hike your own hike, right?

Yep. And it's on Podbean is the.

Okay.

I haven't really like pushed it out there a bunch, but Yep, got about 30 episodes on there.

Okay, that's awesome. Well, we'll make sure we throw that in the show notes as well. Pete, thanks so much for taking the time and jumping back on. It was great to have you.

Thanks again, man. I appreciate it. Have a great day.