Christians and Halloween Pure Talk 10 22 2017

Welcome to Pure Talk. We're so excited that you're joining us for another great conversation. Of course, Pure Talk is brought to you by Faithwire News and Pureflix. We always do a great panel discussion. Sometimes we have an interview and we talk about culture, politics, faith issues, entertainment, you name it, all from a faith lens. So today we're going to discuss a really interesting question and quite seasonal, if you will. So joining the panel is Billy Hallowell. He's the senior editor at Faithwire News. As well as Greg Gudorf, CEO at PureFlix.com. Boo!

Boo!

Greg, actually, before we launch into our discussion, why don't you say a prayer for us?

I'd be glad to. Thank you. Father, thank you for bringing us all together here today to talk about things that are important within our social and cultural worlds as we search for the way to best Allow your will to be done and to follow your word in our daily lives. We ask this through Christ Jesus, our Lord, your Son. Amen.

Amen.

Amen. Thanks so much, Greg. So today we want to talk about something that a lot of Christians, it turns out, are very passionate about on both ends of the spectrum. And that is the question: should Christians celebrate Halloween? So I'm sure you have a lot of thoughts about this, so we'd love to see you share your views in the comments. But I'd love to start off with Billy because he has written a piece about this on FakeWire, which, you know, we'll make sure that we get the link to you guys so you can check that out. Billy.

Oh boy, this is a loaded question. Look, I would say to start, because people are very passionate about this, there's some issues that just get people so worked up, and I used to think this was one of those issues that was sort of benign, but it's not. I mean, this is something that people feel very passionate about. My response to this would be You have to pray about it and see what you're comfortable with. I grew up mostly in a Christian home celebrating Halloween, but in a really healthy way. You know, I wasn't really allowed to do any of like the evil, you know, I didn't dress up like evil things or get into any of that sort of thing. But, but, you know, I dressed up as a California Raisin one year, I dressed up as a Ninja Turtle another year. You know, I was able to celebrate it. I can't believe I'm admitting this, but in a fun and in a healthy way, right? There were years, a few years where I went to harvest festivals at my church because I wanted to. But I would say you have to decide, and actually my father and I disagree about this. He does not believe you should celebrate Halloween anymore even though I did. So I think you gotta pray about it and you gotta see what you feel comfortable with.

All right, Greg, what's your position?

Yeah, I'm kind of aligned with Billy on this one. Halloween is a huge holiday in our culture. It's an $8 billion holiday. $8 billion spent at retail for Halloween. That works out to $80 per household on average being spent on Halloween. So on the one hand, I think about that much money and think, huh, how much good could we do if we ignored the holiday and plowed that money into something really worthy? And on the other hand, it reminds me that we exist in a culture where this is happening, and so we have to come to grips with it and how best to recognize it. And so from that standpoint, I'm more on Billie's side. There are ways, I think, to celebrate this— celebrate's the wrong word— participate in this holiday in a way that's respectful and certainly can help us be part of the culture in a good way.

Yeah. You know what is so interesting is that my European friends all think Halloween is the coolest thing ever. Because they don't really celebrate it over there. It's an American, you know, completely American holiday. And the ones that have been over here during Halloween, they think it's the coolest thing. They love to dress up like the rest of the world thinks Halloween is so cool. I grew up celebrating Halloween, my brother and I going around trick-or-treating, and my parents went along with us when we were little. And it was a real, like, neighborhood event. It was very community And my brother and I, I think the worst thing that we ever dressed up as, I was a cat and my brother was a vampire one year. And actually, get this, one year I dressed up as Miss America.

There you go.

And that came true.

And look at that. So kids, dress up as your dreams.

There you go.

Can I add something here? And I don't mean this to be contrary. I feel like I'm always the Debbie Downer or the one who sort of throws something out that I— But I feel like, you know, I think harvest festivals are great and I love that churches do them. I think there are people who don't feel comfortable for whatever reason. Maybe it's not as community-oriented in their communities. Maybe there are issues that prevent them from doing it and they have a place to go. And I think that's a great alternative. You know, where I sort of hit a wall with it is when people sort of act like it's not celebrating Halloween. It's still a form of celebrating Halloween because it's an event held on Halloween, right, where there's candy and fun. And so, but I think it's great. And I think I actually think churches could find a way to host events, maybe even dinners or parties before kids go trick-or-treating even, and leave the option open and have that healthy sort of environment for families to go to without sort of going so hard on the attack against Halloween. Because I don't know if it always resonates. Does that make sense?

Yeah, it makes sense. And I think we have to kind of remind ourselves of the history of this. Holiday period of time, if you will. You know, Halloween comes from— really, the name Halloween comes from hallowed, right? Holy, right? Hallowed be thy name. Halloween was the short for the eve of All Saints' Day, right? When we were to celebrate the holy. And so there's a reason the name has come through, and the reason itself is not a pagan thing. It's been placed about 1,200 years ago. Halloween was placed on the calendar at this period of time, October 31 to November 1, to coincide with a pagan festival that was about death, the end of the harvest season, the coming of winter, kind of the seasonal flow. You know, there's mixed information about what was actually celebrated in the pagan celebration, But it was a period of time when that celebration was happening, and the church decided to move All Saints' Days from May to this October 31st to November 1st period to coincide with that. And by the way, coinciding Christian holidays and pagan holidays is something that's happened time and again throughout history. Arguably, Christmas, Easter, and others have all been coincided with that, those pagan traditions. So it's interesting that we celebrate something whose name comes from a movement the church did in moving All Saints' Day, which of course is now November 1st, to this time period. We took the name Halloween, All Hallowed Eve, and yet the timing in the year actually is meant to coincide with this pagan holiday. So when you think about the history of how we got here and, and what it was for so many people, in itself Halloween isn't inherently evil. Like so many things, it's how we interpret it and what we do with it.

And how we celebrate it. I mean, like, what are we doing? There is an argument to be— I understand the argument of people not wanting to participate when they feel like it's evil. There are a lot of things that go on on Halloween that I want no part of. There are elements of Halloween that I don't like. But for me, it's how we celebrate it. My kids dress up as Disney characters and we go out in our neighborhood for a few minutes and come back home. I mean, it's a fun thing for them. They don't see that other stuff, and I don't want them to be part of that other stuff.

You know, and also I read a really great article that said about this from a pastor that I admire, and he said very aptly, you know, the devil, evil spirits, however you want to call the enemies of God and of Jesus Christ, are active every single day of the year. It's not like they're more active on Halloween. In fact, why would they be so obvious? I mean, they can, you know, they can do enough damage through our own everyday sins, right? So, but you know what's also interesting, Greg, to just tack on to your historical exposition there? October 31st was also the day that Martin Luther nailed the 95 Theses to the door of the church in Wittenberg because the next day was All Saints' Day. And now a lot of Protestants celebrate November 1st— or October 31st as Reformation Day. Recognizing 95 Theses. So when you take your kids to their houses, not only do they have a pillowcase where they can get candy, but they also can have their own little thing of 95 Theses or a tract they can nail to the door of the house.

They could dress up like Martin Luther.

Exactly. But you know, this is another thing that I think is interesting. The focus on death and violence and evil on the day, right? And you see this in horror movies, and I'm talking about young people, millennials and adults. Why do we have this obsession? And this, I think about this every time another horror movie comes out, and obviously around Halloween there's always, you know, 5 horror movies that come out. Why is there this obsession with death, with violence, with the macabre? I just, I don't get it.

I sometimes think there are sort of differences here, right? There's kind of two types of movies. There's the Saw, which there's another Saw movie out right now, which is horrific. I want nothing to do with watching any of that. For me, that's just, I don't like gore. And there's that sort of gross, kind of violent, sort of scary movie. And then there's the suspenseful film that sort of sparks interest in, you know, spiritual questions, maybe, you know, exorcist. There's exorcism movies that aren't, you know, in that first genre that feel a little bit different that are a little more intriguing. And so I don't know why, I don't know what drives that obsession. I think culturally it's in a lot of our entertainment and we've seen more and more of that. And so I've never quite understood, I guess that's one of the unanswered questions, why did Halloween, and maybe Greg, you know, since you've got the whole history on this, how did all these things seep in to the holiday the way that they have?

You know, earlier in the 1900s, it was actually a fun holiday. And it was celebrated in communities as the Halloween Eve, on the eve of All Saints' Day type of thing. And the costumes tended to be innocent and laughter, parlor type games, etc. Bobbing for apples, all those kind of gamey things that went along with that period of time. But somewhere about the same time that the media, our movies and entertainment, started to turn dark, in the '60s and beyond, the Halloween started to follow that path. And, you know, even today, while there's nothing at all wrong with dressing up, laughing, having fun, even collecting candy, no inherent wrong in that. The wrong is when people embrace it the way you're talking about, Kirsten, and want to use it to celebrate death. And it leads to quite frankly, drunkenness and all other kinds of problems and sins as they try to celebrate the holiday in their way. I think, Billy, to your question, it ties back to the general trend in media towards the darkness and away from the light. Because if you go back in history, at least in the US, early 1900s to mid-1900s, it was a much lighter gay affair and a positive uplifting kind of thing.

Well, and isn't that the truth in general too? I mean, look, Pure Flix has proven that you can have really positive entertainment out there. I think Faithwire is doing that with news. We know people want this. I think we've sort of lost it in culture, and it is interesting that it would seep into the holiday the way that it has. But I think we talk about solutions to this, and one statistic I just wanted to throw out there, because this is from LifeWay. LifeWay found that only 8% of pastors tell people to just avoid it entirely, which I think is kind of interesting. Only 8%, under 10%. 8% saying don't participate at all. So I think that for the 92% of people going to church who probably are participating, people are looking for those solutions. Like I said, for my family, it's celebrating it in a positive way. Having fun with the kids, doing the things you just described. It's sort of like a flashback, right, to a time when it was, I think, an easier time to celebrate. There weren't those themes, and avoiding those themes. Look, my church has an event. On the 28th. And, and, you know, they do that every year, a couple days before Halloween. And that, I think, is great. So every church will come up with a different way, but I would say look for the fun in it. That's my solution.

Right. And pumpkin spice lattes for all. No, Billy and Greg, you both have children and I, I don't. So, you know, I can't speak to exactly what I would do with my children, but I know just my heart goes out to all of the young people, especially singles in their 20s and 30s, who use this as a time to go out and get absolutely wasted and just get into a whole bunch of debauchery. And another thing that really bothers me, and this is something that I feel like as Christians we should stand up and say something about, not like, oh, because the Bible says so, but just because we want to be on the right side of this conversation, and that is Halloween costumes for adults. Which are usually— can be very, very sexual, extremely misogynistic, very insulting of a wide variety of different groups, but usually are just— paint women in a really, really horrible light. And that's another conversation that I think what— especially what we've seen with all these cases of sexual assault and sexual harassment and all that, that we really need to say, hey, now Halloween is not a time to just throw all of your thoughts about women and what they're worth and their value is. It's not a time to throw it all out the window. And that's just something I'm really passionate about.

Yeah, I mean, that comes down to personal decisions about what it is, if you're gonna do that, what it is you're gonna use as a costume. You might ask the question, is Halloween an evil day or a day to laugh at evil? The devil doesn't like to be scorned. If scripture doesn't drive him alone, certainly making fun of him will. So there is a way to have fun in it, and the fun doesn't require the kind of costumes that you're talking about. Those are personal choices that people make, which are fueled by our culture. So I think maybe sometimes people don't realize they have a choice to do something different when it comes to that costume because of the cultural pressure to do something like that. But I agree with you, Kirsten, the, the way that it gets embraced and the results that come from it are anything but what a Christian would want to see out of a holiday.

Well, and I think too that, you know, when it comes to the costumes, for a lot of people it becomes an excuse. The day is sort of an excuse to be somebody else, to dress up as somebody else. And so you can kind of— and I've had friends who've said this, well, I'm going to wear this costume because I wouldn't do that on a normal day, and it's Halloween. And I— so I think it's interesting that it becomes sort of this opportunity for people to try to play somebody else for the day. And so, you know, that I think presents its own interesting, you know, problems kind of relating to what we're talking about here as far as you're you're willing to maybe take that yourself, right? When it comes to costumes. I was Napoleon Dynamite. That was my last costume that I could think of.

Ooh, that's, that's a fun one. The last time I dressed up for Halloween was in high school. And I, because I hated dressing up, like once I passed adolescence, I hated dressing up because I was always comparing my costume to everyone else's. Like, oh, that's not as good. So the last time that I dressed up for Halloween was in high school and I dressed up as Audrey Hepburn. So I wore like a black from Breakfast at Tiffany's. And I went to school and nobody got it. Like, everyone was like, why did you just dress up? I'm like, oh my gosh. So that was when I decided I'm never dressing up for holidays.

You're like, I am done.

I am done.

But also just one more thing too. In Germany and other Scandinavian countries on Christmas, talking about like evil seeping into holidays, but this has been going for a long time, Krampus.

Krampus. He's so creepy.

Terrifying. And this is like an evil monster, like the balance to Saint Nicholas, who goes after bad children. So like—

But they might be on to something because they might be on to something in that, you know, we can't get our kids to behave here. If we had a Krampus, you know, we're threatening kids with coal. If you threaten kids with Krampus, he's gonna— the evil Santa is gonna come and take you out of your room and take you to wherever he go. I mean, that is enough to get your kids to listen.

Speaking of kids, wait, Greg, why don't you talk about, um, the Pure Flix, uh, video that you guys have for kids on Halloween?

Well, we've got lots of videos related to ways to think about and explore it. There's no horror movies or slasher movies of any kind, of course, on PureFlix.com, but we think that there's videos available on PureFlix.com that can help you explore this. And it's really in the light of this conversation— I mean, we're chuckling and having a nice time talking about what some people draw as really definitive lines. You know, you can or you can't celebrate Halloween. I came across something when I was thinking about preparing for this the other day, and the phrase that I came across was, look, we can't allow our convictions about a holiday to cause division within the body of Christ. And if we do that, that's wrong itself. We have to use our freedom to cause others to come into the faith. And so thinking about Halloween from that perspective gave me yet another thought or another angle to look at this rather than do I like it or not. As humans, we love to divide everything into two—good, bad, pretty, ugly, etc.—but the reality is it's all from God. So we have to find the "and" in it, and I think there's ways we can use Halloween and other holidays to advance the faith and reach out to more and more people if we think about it and work to do it that way. I love that.

I love that, Greg. Well, that is a great note to end on, I think.

Billy, do you have any final thoughts? No, no. I mean, we'll have a link to a story that if you want to kind of explore this debate, you know, kind of looking at both sides of the Halloween debate as Christians, we'll have a link there at Faithwire you can check out in addition to what Greg just talked about. And I would just encourage people to think about it. And like Greg was just saying, let's not attack each other over it because people are really passionate on both sides. Just have a good conversation, agree to disagree in a positive way.

Yep. Beautiful words, guys. Use Halloween to invite people rather than to separate. All right, thank you all so much for joining us on this episode of Pure Talk. Thank you, Billy and Greg. And we will see you next time for another episode. Let us know in the comments what you think and maybe what you want to hear about so we can cover it. All right, ciao everyone, have a blessed day. Boo!