PureTalk 2017 05 05 Ep2 v1

Hi everyone, welcome to Pure Talk. I'm Kirsten Haglund and we are having a great conversation. We've got a new innovative talk show brought to you by Faithwire and Pureflix. We cover faith, culture, politics, you name it, all through the lens of faith. So I'm here today with Managing Editor of Faithwire, Dan Andrews, Digital CEO of Pureflix, Greg Gudorf, and our Senior Editor at Faithwire, Billy Halliwell. So we're gonna chat a little bit about Christian entertainment. Has it gotten better, right? It's been criticized, it's been applauded. Hollywood has finally started to see it now as a big moneymaker. But there's a lot to be discussed here. So, you know, why don't we start obviously with you, Greg, being at Pure Flix and a part of, you know, the Christian entertainment industry. How, you know, what's your journey been like with Pure Flix and seeing Christian entertainment on its journey?

You know, the Pure Flix vision is to influence culture for Christ through media. So it's what we're about. Always trying to figure out how to tell a story and bring to light a Christian point of view. And one of the things that's— there's so many interesting things about creating this content now in a Christian world. Oftentimes in the past we've felt compelled to lead with the message and sometimes forget the story. And in Pureflix we're always trying to figure out how to get the story in first. 3, 4 weeks ago we released the movie The Case for Christ. Based on the Lee Strobel book by the same name. It tells a powerful story, a powerful story, and it's not necessarily just the message. There's real life issues. This marriage is struggling with this difference. So at Pureflix, it's always about trying to use media to influence this culture, and in order to do that, you've got to be really good at storytelling.

Yeah, and it's so true because if you think throughout the Bible, I mean, in the Old Testament are some of the greatest stories ever told. I mean, Joseph alone, you know, Moses alone. I mean, those are gripping stories. That's what— as I was a little girl, I loved stories, and that's why I loved reading the Old Testament. I mean, those stories. And then I got to some like parts where I'm like, "Why are we talking about this in Genesis?" You know? But no, storytelling is so important. It's the way that humans have connected. And, you know, now, but Billy, Have you seen, you know, do you think that Christian movies are getting better at this generally? And do you think though that it bridges the gap between Christian films like reaching a secular audience?

Well, there's, I think there's two different kinds of Christian films, right, or faith films. There's the faith films for the faith audience, and then there's the films, maybe three kinds, the films that are specifically for the general public where you kinda wanna get out there, bring a message of faith. It might not be told in a pretty way, maybe it's a difficult story, Hacksaw Ridge is an example. And then there's maybe movies that are trying to do both, right? And so I think the challenge for Christian filmmakers, I think they're meeting this challenge, is finding an interesting way to tell the stories, as you were saying, and growing. I mean, this is a relatively new field, and I think a lot of the reviewers and even Christians— I mean, I see these headlines from Christians, I'm a Christian and I don't like Christian films. And it's like, you have to give some grace to people as they're making this content that they have to improve and get better. And I think with The Case for Christ, what we saw was a phenomenal movie. I love The Case for Christ, and it got a Certified Fresh, you know, rating. Yeah, critics liked it, people liked it. And so you're seeing this growth happen, and I think we have to be a little fairer and understand what the aim is of those three as well before we go after Christian films.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's interesting because I think the Christian, you know, entertainment community gets a lot of flack, you know, because there's a lot of eyes on them and they say, oh, it's a Christian movie. You're already—

you could—

you have the, you know, you're already being labeled that early when There are a lot of horrible movies that come out, you know, in secular media.

Horrible ones.

Horrible flop movies. But we praise them usually.

Yeah, I mean, but people make fun of them, but there isn't like so much on the line for whatever reason. There's like all this on the line, like, oh my gosh, when are the Christians gonna do something good? But there have been plenty of great Christian movies, and I think when you look at, okay, this is a percentage of, you know, a marketplace, I think they've done a great job overall of, you know, creating, you know, if you look proportionally, I haven't done the math on this, but I'm sure there are just as many great well-made, well-told Christian movies as poor ones, proportionally to just regular old Hollywood.

Yeah, you know, it's an interesting question for me about Christian films, and we can get into ratings and all of that, and I know you know all the Hollywood history really well on this, but Passion of the Christ was the number one top-growing, like $370 billion or million, million or billion. Eventually billion, probably. I know, probably billion at some point, but worldwide, and It was obviously a big hit. Churches, you know, filled out movie theaters to go see it. I finally watched it like last Easter, I think, for the very first time and was obviously very moved. And I wouldn't— don't like really need to see it again because it's so violent and gruesome. What is interesting to me in the Christian conversation is how people will go see that in droves. Well, let's say they were to make a movie about Rahab. Or make a movie about Mary Magdalene. Now, we don't know— she wasn't a prostitute, right? That the Catholic Church said was the only— you know, but let's say, you know, or the woman at the well, the woman at the well who had 5 husbands before that. Like, let's say you make a really intense, very visceral movie about the stories of these women who have, you know, a difficult sexual past. Would Christians turn out for that like they did for the violence in in Passion of the Christ? Like, I don't know, where is the line there and what is really necessary to convey the story? Because I would argue, if I want to see a movie about Rahab, I want to see what her life was as a woman. That moves me emotionally and makes me connect more with that character. But it seems like they're more apt to show and portray violence, they're more okay with that than they are about some other topics.

I think it's— well, you probably could speak more to that.

No, go ahead.

I was just gonna say, I think it's interesting. You look down that top 10 list, you mentioned The Passion, that's the highest-grossing. And as you go down the different types of movies I was talking about, you have Narnia in there, you have God's Not Dead in there, you have War Room in there, you have Miracles from Heaven, Heaven is for Real. Those are all very different movies. And the irony is that in almost all of those movies in the top 10, there isn't violence outside of like The Passion of the Christ and maybe some little bit of Narnia. They don't have any of that. So I think there's a growing market of people who just want the stories to be told. That's my assessment.

Yeah, two things came to mind for me. One was you've got to meet people where they are before you can start a conversation, right? So you have to tune into what it is they are responding to, and the secular market gives you some clues to that, and then, you know, once you can meet them, you can potentially shift them, right? I think that's a key part, and I think the second thing that you have to remember is that in the end it is a business.

Yeah.

And that's something people sometimes are very uncomfortable about when they talk about a faith business, right? A business? Faith? But if you don't make it successful financially, you don't have the ability to do another one.

Yeah, no, that's true.

So it's not about, you know, teeing it up to hit one of those billion-dollar box offices, right? But you got to be profitable enough so that you can then tell another message.

And tell it better and better.

Yeah, you're not gonna get it right the first time perfectly, right? So you got to do another and another.

Yeah. And it's so encouraging too to see people in the Christian film industry be very successful, like Kirk Franklin, who, I'm saying his name right, right?

Kirk Franklin?

It is Kirk Franklin, right?

Yes.

Okay, just wanted to make sure. So he has been so successful in the movie industry. I mean, Miracles from Heaven, Heaven is for Real.

It's called DeVon Franklin.

DeVon, I'm sorry. Okay, no, that's why I said I'm like— You have like Christian hair, then we could, yes.

That's why I said I'm like, I'm sorry, please forgive me, yeah. Da'Von Franklin has had so much success, and he started as like Will Smith's assistant. He started doing excellently in the secular world and then has transitioned and really does have cross-cultural appeal, you know, and respect, and great respect in both the Christian and the secular world. And his movies have done really well, and so it almost seems like that's a really great model, you know, especially for young people coming up in the industry. You know, be excellent at your craft, right? Don't just necessarily jump right into making Christian films, but Be excellent at your craft, gain respect in the industry, so that you can reach both markets. I think it's really important.

Well, and I think God's Not Dead did that in a different way, in that it shocked everybody. Oh my gosh, this movie that, with such a small budget, just went crazy.

Yeah, big box office.

It went crazy. And we saw that with War Room too, where everyone's like, wait, how did this become the number one movie in America? What's going on? They have to pay attention when something is that big, right? And when you hone your craft, I mean, Devon's gonna do an animated film. That's the next film, it's an animated movie. About the Nativity from the perspective of the animals, and that's coming this year. So we're seeing people get experimental. Now that could do really well, we hope it does, or it could totally flop, but we won't know until people like Devon and people like Pureflix try.

Yeah, and then Christians shoot themselves in the foot too because, now I didn't see Noah, but I heard horrible reviews of that movie, but you know, you know, but there has to be some room for like allowance to have some creativity and, you know, to fill in some gaps on some stories, but I feel like a lot of times the Christian audience will be so quick to, you know, "Oh, well, that's not exactly what happened. Oh, that wasn't in the story," or, and then they just nitpick at it, and it's like, well, come on. Let's have a little creative license here. You know, you're telling a story.

Yeah, well, the way that happens is Hollywood sees the success of the Christian movies and says, "Oh, we need to order up a Christian movie. Put this in it. Put that in it." It's not authentic. It doesn't follow the message. That movie was just not its own movie.

It was just not that, right?

Yeah.

It's terrible, a terrible film, but yeah, I do think it's true. Then we kind of complain. In that case, it was just like, we can argue this is a bad movie and move on. But it's true, or if there's violence, like Hacksaw Ridge is a violent movie. You're not gonna take your kids to see Hacksaw Ridge, probably. Maybe some parents will, but I wouldn't take my little kid to see it. But there's still a good faith message there, so again, it goes back to those different steps.

Yeah, and that's a good conversation to have too, that I feel like one thing that we should encourage people that are coming up in the industry as well is, you know, let's tell stories with the values of our faith that are good stories. You know, like as you mentioned about— because there aren't a lot of great stories about redemption. I mean, think of the story of Les Mis. Everyone loves Les Mis on Broadway, right? I mean, just sells out all the time. It's been on Broadway for years. Those themes of that story are uniquely like biblical, I mean redemption and sacrifice and like the purity of a relationship. And I mean, everyone loves that and everyone can connect with it. It's like, let's make more content like that. Let's have 50 more Les Mis'.

Now are you saying we should Jesus juke it at the end or not Jesus juke it?

No, no, no. And you know, because if we're talking about true like cultural, transformation, you know, really trying to have an influence, you have to be kind of like ninja-like about it. You can't just go in and be like, "Jesus!" You know, you have to get people to start to have their hearts softened by some of these messages that we know, that we know because, you know, we believe the Bible is truth, that we know are going to connect with and resonate with the human heart.

But also, you can Jesus juice. I mean, you can do that if you— like, the Kendrick Brothers are very clear. We do not make movies for the general public. We make them for Christians.

Yeah.

And so I'm like, okay, you know what, that's cool too. Like, but you have to do both, I think.

Yeah, that's your types of movies and types of audience story, you know. One of the things that you mentioned was the polishing your craft, and I think if there's a message to get out to anyone who's had any idea or desire to produce something, they always start out thinking box office, and maybe that's not the best place to start. Maybe the place to start is to take advantage of all this technology we have and produce shorts that allow them to practice and polish that craft And maybe it's not delivering all 4 messages that you'd like to see in a movie, but it's just one. And they tell these little stories. The technology in our world allows us to get these out and share them with people, whether it's on Facebook or this or that, right?

Yeah.

Practice that and build from that. It's kind of the minimum viable product startup if you're in the startup world, right? The minimum viable product says build the minimum thing you can to convey your message, put it in front of people, learn what they do, and then iterate. And we don't necessarily think of that when we think of filmmaking. We think about box office.

Yeah, and you know what you're talking about, the shorts just made me think of too, is last year I had the great honor of being able to shoot an I Am Second film and be a second and join that club, which was really, really neat. Chip and Joanna Gaines have done videos. Sean Johnson. Kaka, the football player, soccer player, Stephen Baldwin. I mean, it just goes on and on. And that's what they do, is they do these really short little films of a person's story, but they, they do a great job of like just telling the very authentic, raw, real story. But, and then usually a person talks about their faith a little bit, but that's not the main message of it. And they are a ministry like exclusively to non-Christians. and to actually some pretty hardcore communities. Like they go to the Warped Tour, they go to some of these, you know, really potentially like dark and alternative places and put these videos about people's brokenness out there. And it really works. It really works well. You know, we need to have, I feel like we need to have more stuff like that. We do.

We do.

But we can, like to your point, we can do it now.

Yeah.

Like we can have platforms called, you know, PeerTalk. PeerTalk.

We can do that.

We can be out there.

Absolutely. Pureflix.com, one of the things we're doing is trying to seek those, bring them to life on the platform, right? I mean, if you're trying to get it and your only place to put it is YouTube, you're swimming in a great big sea.

Does GodTube still exist?

GodTube still exists.

Okay, I wasn't sure because I mean, I know when YouTube was first happening, people were like, "GodTube!" But I wasn't sure if it was still out there. Okay, gotcha.

We're trying to— because we've got a growing audience that you can put your story in front of, we can help bring that stuff to life. And that's not what I'm here. I'm not the only one, right?

So yeah, yeah. So why don't we talk a little bit about Christian music? Because entertainment, right? We're talking about video, we're talking about film. How about Christian music? How has that journey been?

Can I say something? I already know this is gonna get me in trouble. I'm just gonna say it. Sometimes with Christian things, I think we, we don't always hold ourselves to the standard that we need to. And I think music is probably the best area where there was just music that we would listen to because we were Christians and we wanted Christian music that was not good. And it was awful. And it sounded unique, but not because it was good. It sounded like something you made in your garage and nobody wants to listen to. But really the last 10 years, I feel, with K-LOVE and some of these other radio stations, there has been a big growth. We have the K-LOVE Music Awards. We're honoring people who are really good performers. Friends of ours at Faithwire like Matthew West and others who are really putting music out. Not that this should be the standard, but it sounds like top 40, something you would listen to on the radio. It's that quality, but it has the message. And so I feel really good about where Christian music is going.

Yeah, I agree. And what I like too is I feel like songwriters are more and more actually bringing theology. And I don't mean like they're singing the Nicene Creed. I just mean like real, you know, real great lyrics that talk about and educate about the Christian faith and the Christian life rather than just having like repeat the same chorus 500 times.

Or like steal a Bible verse, not that that's always a bad thing, but like turn it into a song and you know.

Yeah.

There's got to be more and I feel like we're getting there now.

Now you're back. Go ahead. I was gonna say like again, I think a similar point to the movies, you know, I feel like again, I think Christian music gets a bad rap. I've thought about this a lot. I'm like, why do I like a secular song sometimes, like a Katy Perry song or something, like what makes that one like jump out at me more than maybe a good, you know, like a Lauren Daigle song or something, which to me is like quality-wise probably just as good. Yeah, yeah, and I don't know if there's something internally like, you know, sin nature or something that's more exciting about like, you know, the messages that they're bringing because if you look at the lyrics, they're like, you know, to some of these songs, they're— I mean, they're not exactly rocket science either. Like everyone criticizes all the Christians. They have these same, you know, lyrics over and over again. Well, look at a pop song and tell me how in-depth those are.

Yeah, let's sing about alcohol and fornication and we're good to go. I mean, that's what it is.

Right, you know, what's My Lady, what is the hump, the hump song, whatever that is. I don't even know them, but that's all they say the whole time. It's like, wow, you're up all night with that.

I did not think that was gonna come up on this show.

But back up because it's right where we started. It comes back to storytelling, right? Whether it's a blog that's being written, a song that's being written, or a movie that's being shot, it's always the storytelling, and in some cases it's not the words, it's the music and the beat that somehow convey a story. Who knows how it connects with us, but it's a story, right? So it's really all about storytelling, and to your point, the more Christian music embraces that and polishes that craft, right, the more people respond to it.

And I think that's probably why maybe it does— maybe a Christian song doesn't necessarily always resonate with a secular audience because they're deaf to that message. You know what I mean? But if you just do a general message on like, I'm hurting because my girlfriend or boyfriend dumped me, well, that's gonna resonate with every teenager because that happens to every teenager. But if you're not a believer yet and you're hearing a song about really pouring out your heart to God, well, that might not resonate with you at all because you're just not there yet.

It's like these things always have to be backed up. If we want our music, our entertainment, our film, whatever we produce to really reach people's hearts, It's like, it always has to be backed up by those relationships, by relationships with people in a non-believer's life, or in someone else's life to help supplement that, right? Because the song, or the movie, or whatever is just a launch point. It's just a starting point, and it might even be just a conversation starter, but it has to follow up with those relationships, or else it's like, "Oh, that was great," and move along.

And like your Broadway play, you can find it anywhere. The newest Willie Nelson album, which was just out, 2 weeks ago. Willie Nelson, no less, is entitled "God's Problem Child." I love it. And the song, he perceives himself as God's problem child, and yet he knows that it's all okay.

Yeah.

So it's kind of, you know, you can get the message in anywhere.

Well, and like Kanye's relationship with Jesus. I don't know. I don't know.

But you know.

You don't know. You don't know.

I mean, he talks about God a lot, and he says and all this stuff.

You know, it's just It's really interesting. Anyway, gotta be backed up by the relationship.

You're like, I'm gonna step off of the Kanye and Kim Kourtney.

I'm not.

'Cause I don't know, but it's just interesting. No, but it is good to see those glimmers in people.

Look, it's hard to be in Hollywood, it's hard to be in entertainment. I would imagine, I'm a loser who isn't famous, but if I was, I would imagine it would be hard. It's a difficult world, so it's easy to criticize people and look at things and say, oh, they're so horrible, but you hope that those messages get out to them too. And look, I just think we can't be lazy. I think Christian music was a little lazier than films. I think films, they hit the ground running. I think music for a long time was lazy, and now it's not. There's people competing for real because they want the message out there, and they're getting good at it.

Yep. And also, you can have great Christian music without lyrics. Michael W. Smith put out an album a while ago called Freedom, and it's all instrumental, and it's absolutely gorgeous, and everyone should listen to it. That's all we've got. We'll see you next time on Pure Talk.