💡 a SIMPLE approach to LEASE OPTIONS with Mark Shaw

Hello you fantastic lovely people and welcome to the Deal Finders Corner, your weekly property talk show brought to you by Property Filter, hosted usually by everyone's favorite Frenchman, Guillen Black, but today it'll be hosted by your favorite Northerner, Asif Omar from the Property Filter team. We are the UK's highest rated platform for finding deals and we're on a mission to empower our property investor and deal sourcer members to find 1000 deals this year thanks to the Property Filter blueprint. The purpose with your Deal Finders Corner is to give you more and the best of the available resources. Invite expert guests who will share with you the latest and most current strategies, tactics and secrets about what actually works right now in terms of finding and making deals and the reality of systemizing and running a high performance business in property. It is my pleasure to introduce you to the rather amazing Mark Shaw on today's Deal Finder Corner. Mark is a lifestyle investor who builds his property portfolio from using his laptop, using creative solutions. Having built and operated an estate and lettings Agency since 2003 and having invested in property for over 25 years, his knowledge and experience has been gained working in real markets, dealing with agents, vendors, landlords, buyers, contractors and investors and all the rest. Marcus used his blueprint to acquire a substantial portfolio currently consisting of 90 plus individual properties, including residential, commercial, HMO land blocks of flats and hotels, basically everything. Many of these things have been acquired using low money down techniques with all negotiations through email templates from his laptop. Mark is now retired and financially free, but remains very active in this market both as an investor and a property coach running the Lifestyle Investor Mastermind program twice a year. So what we're going to learn in this episode we're going to learn how to identify lease option opportunities, how to create genuine win win agreements, how to keep the process simply simple and repeatable and of course we're going to follow it up by an exclusive Q and A. So if you have any burning questions for Mark then please pop them in the chat and we'll get to it at the end. So with the usual, can we give a massive, massive property filter welcome to Mark Shaw. Over to you Mark. How are we on this fine day?

I'm very well, thank you very much. Thank you for the introduction. Makes me feel super special as always.

Absolutely.

I'm just putting up now. I'm just looking at trying to share my screen. I've not used this facility before. I've got you there. How are we there?

Can you see that it has come through yes, it has slideshow mode and we're good to go. Mark Shaw.

Okay, well, as I say, thanks for the introduction. I know that I spoke on here a few times now, so some of you will be getting used to me. What you'll find is that I put more information than I would normally do on slides, just because I understand that you can access these at a later date so you can use them for your own notes. And go back over the recording. But briefly, an introduction about myself, just specifically how it relates to lease options. So I've now been investing in property for actually 32 years. And although I didn't know at the time, my very first acquisition was a lease option. It was a family member that couldn't afford to pay the mortgage and it was due to get repossessed. And I actually took over the mortgage and used my student overdrafts from university to clear the arrears. So even though I didn't know that my first lease option was literally 32 years ago, but it's been the last 13 years that lease options have been my go to strategy. It's literally the first thing that I will look at no matter what property or, or what opportunity I'm looking at. Only if I can't do a lease option will I then look at something else, such as a joint venture or using private finance. So I've owned and built my own estate and letting agencies now, and they've been sold. But if you can imagine from an investor's point of view, some of the conversations that I've actually had with landlords and with vendors, you know, how to communicate with them, how to understand what price they will actually accept before they've even realized. Because often it's the estate agent that gives that valuation. Imagine how many different sales I've dealt with so that I can actually understand the scenario. And then imagine how many times I've actually understood the problems that go with that scenario and what solutions that we can offer. Combine that with the flexibility of a lease option and you literally can convert so many deals. So currently I've got and the figures changing all the time, but it's always around about 90 individual properties that I have. I would say at least 70 of those properties have been acquired initially through lease options. Some would have just been sold on at the end of the auction period, some I would have purchased, some I would have refinanced, some I would have extended, some I would have renewed. But this is how important lease options are. If over 70 of those properties were all agreed through lease options. So now, yeah, I'm financially free and I'm retired, but I'm still a prolific investor and I'm still specifically using lease options. And I only do it the way that I'm going to show you today. So why I think everybody should be focusing on lease options and certainly why I do is that I invest predominantly for my laptop. And this is what everybody should really be looking at doing, you know, the ultimate goal. Because investment's all about freeing up your time. So if you're not having to go to properties and you're not having to have conversations with agents and with vendors, imagine how much of your time you freed up. And lease options are the go to is the low down tool that will give you a creative win win solution that you can pass on to somebody else. Because a lease option, the value is in how you structure the deal. For instance, how much you're paying on exchange, how many years you have it for, and whether you're making any extra payments. The value is in the structure of the deal. It's nothing to do with the property. So there's no point you viewing the property until your offer's been accepted. Imagine how much time that frees up. And we always communicate by email because for a lay person or somebody that's not familiar with lease options, which is literally everybody, you, you won't get them to understand you having a verbal conversation. There's no way an estate agent will be able to relay that information onto the vendor in a way that the deal will be accepted. You have to take it to email because the vendors and the agents have to keep rereading what you've put. They have to ask you questions which you can then reply by email. Vendors will generally look at the emails when they finished work in the evening, discussing your offer with a partner, asking you questions out of office hours. So this is what you need to be thinking about going forward. This is what you want to be moving towards. Now what we're going to cover today is just how simple lease options can be. We're going to look at how to identify relevant opportunities, then we're going to look at how you can actually produce an offer that provides a win win outcome. And this is for all parties. It's for the landlord, it's for the vendor, but it's for the estate agent or the lettings agent as well, and of course for yourself. And then we're going to go through some case studies because of different sizes, just to give you an indication of literally how easy an option can be. You'll see that these have been agreed by four or five emails, often in one evening. They're not protracted negotiations. Okay. It's really just making them aware of the solutions that you're offering them. But as a bit of a background, just to kind of make sure that everybody's up to speed options, I'm really just going to cover the four main profit streams so that you can actually understand when you're looking at an opportunity that you're not trying to make it work on just, you know, what price you can get that property at. When you understand how you make money from lease options, then you can be a little bit more flexible with your offer. You can offer a little bit higher if you need to, because you will always make money. I've been doing these since 2003 and I've never, never not made money on a lease option. And it's always been in the thousands. It's not just 5,000 or 10,000, it's a lot more. So first of all, you will generally get the property at a favorable purchase price because somewhere along the line you're providing a solution. Even if the solution is you're paying market price at today's rate, by the time you complete on that property or sell it on, it might be five years into the future. Sorry, five years into the future. So if you look back today and think five years ago, if I'd offered on that property that I've used, what would it be worth today? That's where you can get an idea of the kind of money that you can make. So you're always going to get a favorable purchase price. You've got the net monthly cash flow. So if you've got a five year lease option, you've got up to 60 months worth of rent payments to add to your profit. So at the end of the five years, the rent gets added to that favorable purchase price. Over the five year period as an example, you're going to likely have an increase in value. You'll get a general uplift from work that's done to the property or whether you had to refurbish it to begin with, or whether you know you've done work in that. In that interim period, you'll have market appreciation which is pushing the price up and you've got inflation working in your favor. And then over five years you've probably got three to five rent increases where you don't know today what the rent will be in five years time because you don't know what the Market demands are. But again, this is added to the bottom line and something that's often missed is the saving in opportunity costs. So if you're taking over somebody's mortgage and you're not having to find the finance yourself, you've saved on the financial element. You've also saved on the time because you're not having to put in applications for mortgages, you've taken over somebody's mortgage, you're taking over a property often that's all ready to go. Often they've got tenants in it, if that's in your investment plan. And because you're not buying the property initially, you've got no stamp duty to pay as well. So I, I always like to pay something on. On exchange. We call it option consideration, you know, one or three thousand pounds, because I like to have, have it focus the vendor's attention, because if they, they're going to get £3,000 on exchange, what they'll do is they'll make sure all the paperwork sent back to the solicitor quickly. They're doing everything that I'm asking. And also I can use that to negotiate a better price or a more flexible option. So they're your four main profit streams. So now you're not thinking, if I buy it at 100,000 and sell it at 20,000, I've made 20,000. Now, you've got four different elements here, all adding to your profit, how you actually exercise or complete on the option. By far the most popular way for myself is that I will never own the property. I'll control it for the period. So if it's five years, I'll control it up to five years and then I'll sell it. Often I'll instruct an estate agent, the estate agent will find a buyer and sell it. Anything over the price that I agreed earlier with the vendor, I keep as profit. So I've never owned the property, the properties that I actually want to keep long term. So these are the larger properties, I'll complete on them myself. So you can either complete on them using a mortgage or cash at the price that you agreed five years earlier, so you're locking in more equity. Or you can complete on it for cash at that discounted price that you agreed five years earlier and then just refinance it immediately so you'll have all of your money out of the deal. They're more for the ones that you want to hold on to. You can assign the option on to somebody else. You can actually say, you know, I bought this for 100,000. It's now worth 140,000, Mr. Investor, I'll let you take over the option for £20,000. So you can take a £20,000 fee. And one that's often missed is you can just renegotiate a brand new lease option with the vendor before the original one runs out. So I do this on a lot of the long term ones that I want or if they're on capital repayment mortgages, and I'll literally email them and say, as you may be aware, although they will have forgotten, our agreement comes to an end next year. Would you like to agree a new option, a new five year deal based on the same terms? So if they had £3,000 before, on exchange, I'll give them £3,000 again and then I'll have it for another five years. So how do we identify the opportunities? Well, we spoke about this before. Anybody that's watched the Property Filter videos, first of all, you recognize what the vendor scenario is. So every deal, every sale, there's a reason for it. A landlord might be downscaling or exiting the market, a couple might be splitting up, somebody might be moving in with their partner. Okay. There's always a reason behind and all you've got to do is to recognise what that scenario is. And then if you can imagine with that scenario, there's normally five or six problems or potential problems that come with that particular scenario. So all you've got to do is understand the potential problems. It might be that it needs too much work, the price is too high. So you know the potential problems are it's not going to sell, they're going to get discounted offers, it's going to fail survey. And then once we know what those, that those five problems are or potential problems, we know how a lease option can offer solutions to those. So with a lease option we can afford to pay that purchase price. You don't have to worry about a down valuation, we'll take over your mortgage payments. So this is, this is the blueprint really for all the lease options that you're looking at. Recognize the scenario, understand the potential problems that come with that scenario and then understand the solutions. So when we go through the case studies today, we're going to focus on what the potential problems are and what the solutions are so you can actually start your own schedule of lease options. You know, this is a vendor scenario. On this side, I've got potential problems. On this times, it's the, it's the solutions that go to those problems.

And.

Then how we achieve this win, win, outcome, and everybody goes on about a win, win outcome. But the first thing you need to do is you understand things from the vendor's point of view or from the estate agent's point of view. So when I'm actually working with people, the first thing that they'll say to me is, the reason I want a lease option on this property is because what you need to be thinking about is, no, the vendor needs a lease option for this reason. You put yourself in their shoes. Think how your offer is going to look to them. If you've actually shown a little bit of empathy, but more importantly, you've shown the vendor that you recognize the scenario, you'll have a link with them, so they'll straightaway understand that you're credible, you're experienced and you're seeing things from their point of view. So, for instance, if it's a landlord, there's one this morning actually we're working on, is a landlord that's selling a portfolio of HMOs. The first thing you've got to say is, as you can appreciate, many landlords are actually looking at exiting the market or downscaling at the moment. I found that many of our clients are preferring to agree a combination of cash and delayed completions for reasons of reduced tax. And then you just go on. So what you've done is you've shown them that other people have these issues, you understand things from their point of view and you've dealt with it before, and then you highlight the potential problems. So now that they understand that we know their situation, we can subtly, not to scare them, but subtly refer to some problems. So for that HMO landlord that's getting rid of a portfolio of HMOs, you know, obviously you've got to find somebody that can actually afford them. HMOs aren't cheap. You know, you've got tenants in the property, there's going to be a lot more due diligence. Most sales are taking four to five months at least to go through. So you're kind of pointing out the potential problems to them. Some they'll be aware of, some they won't. And then you communicate the solutions. So the reason that many. The reason that many of the landlords. Something's whistling on the computer, okay, communicate the solutions. So this is why a lot of landlords work with us, because we can actually exchange within five to six weeks. We're happy to buy the properties subject to the existing contracts. Your tenants won't even realise the property's being sold from the date of exchange, you'll have no further costs or operational responsibilities for that property. You have four securities, the property remains in your name. So again, when we're doing this by email, it's a lot easier. You try and explain this all in one conversation, it's never going to happen. But you explain one potential problem or ask them what problem they've got and then you give them the solution, then they move on to the next one. So you now get this dialogue going through email at their own pace. So now taking you through some examples. So this came through an estate agent. It's a, I think if I remember right, it's a two bed house. The landlord is selling the property, it's got tenants in it. And when you look on rightmove and you see the photographs, it's literally chock a block. There's not too many people living there, but they're a bit of a hoarders and they've got kids. So the rooms are, you know, haven't got much room in at all. So if you look at that as an owner occupier, you're going to be put off. If you look at it as a landlord, you're going to be put off as well because the rent's low, so they're not going to get the yield. These, these things you can find out from asking the agent or just taking a guess from the photographs. And obviously the description sometimes puts what the rent is. You ask some additional questions, you know, what's the feedback being on it? Sometimes you can guess, sometimes you want agents to work with you to see just how far and how much information they're going to give you. So this property is marketed too high for a tenanted property, which we can see from the photographs. There's been a few viewings, but the low rent's putting the landlords off, which we could have guessed, and the tenants are putting off the buyers. So when somebody's actually selling properties with tenants in place, what you'll find is the tenants, when they're paying a low rent, will often put the buyers off. They'll point out repairs that are needed or issues that they've had because they don't want somebody else buying because there's chance that they might have to leave or that the rent's going to go up. There's been no office on the property and the landlord wants to sell with the tenants in place. The landlord used to live in the property, but they've moved out and since moved in with their partner. Now that element is key. Because if somebody used to live in the property, the chances are they're on a capital repayment mortgage. If they're on a capital repayment mortgage, that means the payments, the monthly payments are higher. So that's more money coming out of the landlord's pocket or reducing their profit. Okay? So the first thing we do, step one is we recognize the scenario. Okay? This is what we call. It's a reluctant or an accidental landlord. Somebody used to live in the property, they moved out and they decided to rent it. So with that scenario, we have four or five potential problems. They no longer want to be a landlord, which is clear because they're now selling. It's the only one they've got because they used to live in it. It's a repayment mortgage. So the cash flows poor. And remember, it's a low rent. So any repairs that come up are going to come out landlord's own pocket. And then obviously there's all the compliance issues and the change in regulations. This is the big one for reluctant landlords. They can't afford for the tenants to move out. So as soon as you hear somebody say, or the agent says to you, they want to sell with the tenants or the tenants in situ, you know that it's a reluctant landlord because if that tenant moves out, they've now got an empty property with council tax, etc high insurance. They've not got the rent coming in, they've got a little bit of the utility bills. But the main thing is it's a repayment mortgage with no money coming in now. So they're going to be having to dip in their own pocket. And we don't know how long this is going to go through. You know, if we're saying it's four to five months, you're going to have an empty property. So the potential problem for them is if, if an estate agent goes around normally or if a vendor wants to view, the tenants will start looking for alternative accommodation or they'll put people off because they're on a low rent such as this one. And It's a catch 22 situation. The landlord's not going to buy with those tenants, so they're going to want vacant possession and an owner occupier won't buy it within with the tenants in place because they'll want the vacant possession as well. But what the landlord doesn't want is vacant possession. So the solutions that we offer is, well, first of all, you're not going to be a landlord anymore. From the date of exchange, we take on legal Responsibility, we will take on all costs, including your repayment mortgage. You'll have no viewings. The tenants will not even know that the property is sold. And until we've exchanged, and then I will email them to let them know and give them the change in details because this is, this takes the pressure off the landlords and it's very quick and convenient. We looking at exchanging in four to five weeks, I'm not going to have a survey. I will waive a lot of the inquiries. Okay. Because we're not completing on the property, we're just taking control of it. So they're the solutions in this particular scenario. So what we're literally saying to them overall is you just get to walk away from the property, from the date of exchange. You will have no further concerns. So imagine what a breath of fresh air you are now for that landlord or vendor if it's not a tenanted property. And then the first thing we want to be doing in any transaction we're looking at is we want to be managing their price expectations. It's nothing to do with the price that that property is marketed for. There's always a key figure that they're focusing on. It might be the amount of equity in the property, it might be a certain purchase price, such as they want to cover an outstanding mortgage. But we ask questions and we don't necessarily put figures forward without kind of taking them in the direction that we want to go. And I'm going to give you an example of the script that we used here. So first of all, the fact that the property is still on the market and it's one soldier, you know, that's managing price expectations. Why do you think it hasn't sold? Literally the only thing that they can say is because it's tenanted or the price is too high. So they've already started to manage their own expectations. How much interest or have you had any offers? What's the feedback been been like? But again, it doesn't matter because the property is unsold. So it's already starting to manage their expectations. Why do you think it hasn't sold? Get them to start verbalizing it. You know, when I was an estate agent and I would ask that question at the property, or I was used to actually view properties, you'd see their face change because they were trying to think of an excuse. But it all came down to, I think it's, it's priced too high. And then what you do is you use strategic use of market comparables. So if it's £100,000 property and you've got a sole subject contract in the last year at 110 and you've got another one at 90. Then obviously you're going to email the link at 90 to justify your offer. Okay, we use comparable because you would automatically think as property investors that a buyer, sorry, a vendor will go on, right, move and start researching their own property. They don't.

Okay.

So what we do is we break down the offer. This is normally by email, but the conversation like this, I appreciate that it's on the market for 110,000. However, market comparables suggest a slightly lower price range of 100 to 1002000 with vacant possession. So I'll send them a couple of links around the hundred to the 102,000 mark. Whatever I've got links for, that's what I'm going to put down in this offer. But look, I've put vacant possession because we know they won't go for vacant possession. Is it reasonable for you to expect a lower offer with it being tenanted? They can't say anything but yes, trust me. Would an offer of £95,000 be reasonable, subject to the tenancy? Now, there's a whole psychology behind this, but basically, if you hit £100,000, there's a price band of five grand. So you'll always get £100,000 property that's been on the market for a while for 95. Where people usually go wrong is they offer 95 and then get pushed up to 97. So usually on other deals you would start off at something like, you know, 91,775 or something, and get pushed up to 95. But in this particular example, we're just going to go straight in at 95. So would an offer of £95,000 be reasonable, subject to the tenancy? She says yes. If you accepted an offer of £95,000, do you have any idea how much you would actually receive from the sale after costs? Often they won't know this, so you have to talk them through it. But you would have already worked the figures out. £95,000 less your outstanding mortgage, because she's given us the figure less the estate agency fee, which we've got off the estate agent, less 995, which were the legal fees back then, will leave you, Mrs. Vendor, with £1269. That's always a bit of an eye opener for them if there's not much equity in the property. So if I paid you £1,500 on exchange, you would receive the same amount, but only quicker. You'd be getting it in four or five or five or six weeks. And now if you really want to seal the deal, all you've got to do is to increase it so they're actually getting a little bit more. But think of what we're offering the vendor, which they'll understand because we've communicated it by email. So you're giving me the price that, that I can achieve on the market with, tenanted with, with the, the tenants already in situ. You can exchange within five to six weeks and I'm going to get the same amount of money or more than if I'd actually sold and waited for my money in five or six months and risk having the tenants move out. It's a bit of a no brainer. Now this isn't the important bit, but everybody wants to see figures. So we agreed a purchase price of 98. I gave her £3,000 more than the 95 because I wanted to give her this £3,000 on exchange because that will make sure she exchanges and doesn't delay sending the paperwork there and taken over the monthly mortgage payments. Now I renewed this in 2021. So we got to the end of the five years and I said, would you like to renew it on the same terms? And she said, yeah. Did it even look what the market valuation was? So the property at this time has already gone up 57,000 pounds in value and we've just agreed another option. Over the 96 months that the option has been running, you've had nearly £42,000 worth of rent. So remember when I was telling you about the different streams of income? So in six, well, we've got six years left on this lease option. If we don't renew it again afterwards, there's £98,900 profit already. The only money I've got tied up in this deal is the 8,900, which are two lots of option consideration, £3,000 each and legal fees. But remember, the option consideration is deducted off the purchase price anyway. It's just that this money's tied up. But my entire cost in this is about what, six, £2,900 in this deal, but it's made 98, well, 99,000 profit with another six years left. But the amount that we've made in profit is already more than the purchase price of the property. So it's over 1000%. But this is a key thing with lease options. You know, this is the, you can't say over five years. I think I'm actually going to make more than the purchase price. You've got no way of telling, but you will always make money. So how easy can it be to agree an option? Well, first, the first thing we do, as we did in this case study, is we establish how much the vendor will actually receive once it completes. How much will she get in her bank account after all the costs, the figures often a lot lower than they expect, we offer them the same amount or more on exchange, so they're actually in a better position now doing a deal with us than they would be selling it on the open market. We offer to advise the tenants of the sale after the exchange has taken place because it removes the pressure away from the vendor unless they want to tell them themselves, which they never do. And we always use email. This whole deal was agreed between 6:30 and 10:00 clock on one night by email. It was not complicated once you follow this blueprint. Okay, so at the end of the night the last thing was said is would you be happy to for me to draft the heads of terms? If you're happy that it reflects accurately what we've agreed, I will instruct solicitors in the morning. And the last email from her that night before she went bed is yes, please go ahead. And then I send the emails off to both solicitors and then their solicitor will contact them just to, you know, take instruction direct. But one evening, not complicated. So the second example, this is a block of flats and commercial units. But the first deal was a block of 10 flats. A rent to rent agreement had gone wrong. This referral came to me from a property sourcer. Basically this landlord hadn't actually received any rent for the last year. The rent to rent operator had gone awar. So the landlord didn't have any paperwork at all. He didn't know who was in his properties. All the properties or the tenancies were non compliant. Plus he didn't have the tenancy agreements in his possession. But the landlord doesn't want to sell, he will only do a rent to rent. And I don't do rent to rent, I only do lease options. So a little tip here is when you, you're doing a rent to rent with someone and you turn around to me and you say, but the landlord will not do a rent to rent. The reason the landlord won't do a lease option, the reason that the landlord only wants to do a rent to rent is because he knows that asset is going to go up in value in the future and he knows if he agrees the Price with you now, he's going to lose out when you come to sell it. So the easiest way around there is you match the terms of the rent to rent agreement, agree a purchase price based on current market conditions and then you offer that landlord a percentage of the uplift if you decide to sell in the future. So now the landlord's not concerned he's going to lose out. That's what will convert the rent to rent landlords into a lease option. And what you're also saying to that landlord is because I'm going to end up either owning this property or selling it in five years time, I'm happy to invest in the property, I'm happy to get it decorated, put a new kitchen in, put windows in Mr. Landlord, that increases the value of the property for both of us when we come to sell it. So this is what converts the landlords. So step one, recognise the vendor scenario is the rent to rent gone wrong. It's as simple as that. Put that in your little notepad now because you're starting off your schedule of lease options. Step two, your left page. Understand the potential problems. Well, the landlord's not been receiving any, any rent from the operator. That's not likely to improve the properties and tenancies are non compliant. That will come back to him as the property owner at some point. He's got the costs and the difficulty of regaining possession is he's not even got tenancy agreements and he doesn't want to sell, he only wants to lease it. So we know what the potential problems are. So now we can offer the potential solutions. We will pay you a guaranteed rent, we will deal with all the compliance. We are responsible for regaining possession. You don't have to go to court, we'll deal with it all. If we don't get possession, it doesn't matter because we're paying you rent and we're covering the costs. And in five years time or whenever we decide to exercise the option, you'll get a percentage of every any increase in value over the period. Okay, so the solutions are really, really simple. And with rent to rent, the first thing you want to do is mirror the rent to a rent agreement that they've already got in place. Because if you think about it, they were happy enough with those terms because they agreed the rent to rent and the key figure tends to be the monthly amount that they're being paid. So if you match that monthly amount, you've more or less got the, the deal agreed. Okay, so in this instance actually it was how much should you have been receiving on your rent to rent agreement that you've not actually received for the last 1212 months? £3,000. The figures that we agreed is I pay him two and a half thousand. He said, but the other person was paying me 3,000. I said, well, no, he wasn't, Mozzie. But most importantly, when you do a rent to rent with an operator, they won't invest in your property. Over the next five years I'm going to be increasing the value of your property so that when we sell it, you'll get the benefit of that uplift and that investment. So I don't think it's fair that I actually pay the same amount that you were supposed to be getting before. And he understood that. So terms agreed, purchase price 775 and, and a percentage of the uplift, five year term, no option consideration. He didn't get any money on exchange and I got two months of free period to sort out the compliance issues. And I got, I paid him two and a half thousand pounds per month. But then I was getting £6,000amonth by the time I got the new tenants in and it didn't take me long to get them out. So the increase in value, 275,000, that's after he's had his share. I've had a net rent of 180,000. We've actually renewed this option. The net profit, therefore, after the investment in the profit is 429,000. But the key figure is I've only got £25,000 invested in this project. Okay. And that was the cost of the works. No option consideration was paid. So, you know, I put new windows in and we upgraded some of the, the electric heaters and we just put new kitchens in when the tenants moved out. Okay, but this is the amount that we've actually got tied up in the deal after five years. At the time of the deal we didn't, we just had legal fees. I say we, it's me, but it just sounds less egotistical, I suppose. So how easy can the option be? Well, first thing we do is we match the terms under the existing rent to rent agreement. You can ask for a copy or to begin with we just email and say, how much rent were you supposed to be receiving? You can embellish a little bit. You can say were they responsible for the repairs and maintenance, insurance, which we know they will be. And he'll say yes and say, well, we're happy to be responsible for that as well. We outline the plan of action and we do this because they've already been stung by a rent to rent operator that didn't deliver on what they promised. So in this case I let them know a timescale that I would be getting certain repairs done. I let them know how I would be dealing with the non compliant tenants and how I would be paying him his monthly two and a half thousand pounds. Indicate your willingness to invest in the property. This again sets you aside from the rent to rent operator. The reason a lot of rent to rents go wrong is understandably the rent to rent operator doesn't want to put money into somebody else's asset. But with a lease option you're the one that's going to end up with the asset. So you should be more comfortable investing in the property. And use email, always use email. But with old school landlords such as this gentleman, you want to text them very short messages every now and again WhatsApp them or have the odds quick call if that's the way that they're used to communicating. Don't force them to email if they're not used to or comfortable with email. Okay, case study number three. And we're running on time, which is good. This is a 13 bed ensuite hotel and it's got a little flat at the back. Again, it's a rent to rent agreement gone wrong. The vendor didn't even think about selling this property. It was a couple, a young couple on our very first mastermind actually that did a direct to vendor letter. This landlord, this owner got in touch with them and they asked me if I wanted the deal because obviously they don't know how to do anything with the hotel. But they hadn't actually learned about lease options at that point. So we ended up doing the JV on this because it wouldn't have been right to just paid them on a fee when they didn't understand lease options at that time. So step one, we recognize the vendor scenario. It's a rent to rent gone wrong. We think it's another one of those. I dealt with that earlier. I'm going to go to page two in my notebook because I've already got this scenario. What are the potential problems? So we know that there's no rent being paid by the operator. In this case the property is empty. So he's going to have business rates to pay an additional cost, higher insurance. He definitely doesn't want to run it. He used to run it as a hotel tell himself, but he doesn't want to do it anymore. And he's even Though he's not said this, we can kind of guess that he's going to have a lack of trust with guaranteed rent to rent operators. Okay. Because he's obviously been stung and this is a big building. The problem is that not many rent to rent operators would be able to cope with something like this. And in fairness, I've never had a hotel and I don't do rent to rent and I don't do HMOs and I don't do service to accommodation. But it's the deal that we look at, it's how we structure the deal. We don't know what we're doing with this property, we just know it's going to make money and as long as I get a lease option on it, I'm happy. And that's how you need to be thinking. So the solutions is, first of all, we will pay a guaranteed rent. But then the other people said that we will pay all your costs. But the other people said that we will take over full responsibility. But the other people said that okay, well we'll agree to purchase the property and we will pay you a non refundable deposit option consideration on exchange. An exchange will be in about five to six weeks. Okay. So although I rarely, rarely pay a substantial deposit on, on a lease option, on something like this you've got to give them a little bit of certainty and get them to mention the figure. Always get them to mention the figure. Well I'm happy to pay a deposit. How much would you be looking for? They always go for 10% to automatically go to 5%, meet halfway. I don't normally pay a deposit, but I'm happy to meet you halfway. And then if you're paying a deposit then you've kind of made yourself a lot more credible than those rent to rent operators that didn't pay them. And with a purchase price, first rule in property investment, never be the first one to mention the price. So one of the emails, how much are you looking to achieve? I hadn't actually thought of selling. Well what would you be happy with? And he came up with a figure, he never valued a hotel, he based on local hmo. So the figure was wrong and it was very, very low. So we were happy to go ahead. If we'd have actually mentioned the figure and tried to value this ourselves, we would have offered him a lot more. So key lesson there, terms agreed, 475,000, three years, a 5% option consideration and we pay him £3,000amonth which he should have been paid on the Rent to rent agreement. But here we've made them deductible. So although we're paying him £3,000amonth, it's coming off the purchase price. So in effect it's an interest free loan for us of £108,000 because it's not coming off the profit. So the increase in value at the end of the three month term and we completed on this last year £625,000 because we got it under market value. Because he mentioned the price, we've had £241,000 rent. That's net rent because we sign this over to a rent rent operator who takes on all the operational costs. So that's a net profit in three years of 866,000. This is the important bit. How much have we got tied up in the property? £28,800. That's £23,000 option consideration which is deductible off the purchase price anyway. It's not an expense and the rest is legal fees. And the legal fees were to actually do the option with the vendor, then it was to actually complete on the auction three years later. And it was also to put the rent to rent agreement in place, the lease with the rent to rent operators. So within a week of us actually agreeing this exchange on the lease option, we'd handed the keys over to a rent to rent operator that was paying us £7,300amonth and we're only paying £3,000 which is deductible. So that's £7,300 profit per month from literally a week of having this property. That's the beauty of lease options. Now that rent to rent operator couldn't make it work, so we released him from the agreement. Somebody pays us £5,700 now, but again that's still net because we've got no costs on this property at all and we still don't know what we're going to do with it. So again we asked the question then, how easy can it be to agree an option? Wow, it's a hotel. I knew nothing about hotel. It's too big for me. I can't get that kind of money or we've seen we only put £23,000 on exchange. First thing we do is we match the terms. Do you have a copy of rent to rent agreement or how much were you supposed to be getting paid per month? I'm happy to pay that. I'm going to give them a non refundable deposit here only because that's going to swing the deal for me, I didn't have to do it on the flats because there was a lot more issues in that. I had to deal with compliance, I had to get the tenants out. So it's easy for me to turn around and say, look, I'm going to be spending money straight away on, on these flats, but here there's nothing to spend. Ask the vendor for the purchase price. How much are you hoping to achieve if he comes out with a price that's clearly too low and you've got a bargain? And don't try and negotiate, all right? Because if you. If you try to negotiate or you get him to think, or you give him a little bit of time, he just might phone an agent and an agent will give them the market value or higher price to get invited around and you've lost the deal. Okay? And the way you term is, I'm happy to pay the price that you've asked for. So you cement in their psyche that they're the ones that ask this prize. And I'm happy to agree with it and use email. This was, I think, about seven emails over three evenings. And the reason it took so long, it was over three evenings, is that we don't push the email. As soon as we've sent out the opening email, we work to their time scales. So if they reply to us at 7 o' clock at night, then I'll decide do I want to reply to them there from my phone or do I want to wait until the next day? It depends on what he's put. Sometimes I'll answer straight away, but what I don't do is I don't chase answers or I don't keep chasing him. He will. He will ask a question or make a point and then I will reply. And it just took three days because that's the pace that he worked at. No need to view the property. It's a hotel at the end of the day. It had a website, it's got all the internal photographs. So again, it's not difficult to do a lease option when you're looking at it like that. I don't need to value the property, I don't really need to visit the property. I know that we're going to find a service accommodation operator to take this on, or perhaps the local authority. What I'm focusing on are the terms of the agreement, which is basically just to match the rent to rent agreement. Two more very, very brief examples. So this one was actually agreed last month. I contacted a builder because I asked, do you have any Referrals. Do you know any landlords that are selling portfolios or large buildings? He said he will have a thing and then I said do you have any properties that you're thinking of selling? Well I've got these two new masonets that I've built. They've on buy to let mortgages and we've agreed to lease options. So we recognize the vendor scenario in this one. It's a developer, he builds, he doesn't want rent to rent, he doesn't want buy to let, he just wants to build. That's what they do. So it's a developer will always be wanting funds for their next project. The potential problems, he needs capital to buy land and to build development finance is expensive. It's also time consuming. You know there's lots of paperwork. You have to wait for somebody to come and visit before they'll release the next trench of money. Buy to let doesn't interest builders. They just want to build and they like profit rather than cash flow. So the solutions I'm going to give him access to equity, I'm going to give him an interest free loan because if he needs £50,000, I don't want to pay him £50,000 option consideration but I'm happy to give him a loan for £50,000 because then you know that's repayable after a certain time. He gets quick access as soon as he wants some money. You know with builders they normally want 20, 30000 pounds in five or six weeks time. He's just got to WhatsApp me and I have the funds available for him. This fits my investment plan, it won't fit everybody's and he'll have no more buy to let issues. So very simple solutions to his ish, his problem. So how, how easy can it be? So how much do you want to achieve? Well I think they're worth this. He quoted 140,000, they're actually worth 180,000. So I'm happy to agree to his 140,000 each asking for the outstanding mortgage payments which he emailed me the details over screenshot. Calculate the equity. If you sold at 140,000, take off your mortgage and all your costs, how much equity would you receive, you know, on completion and then make a similar amount available to him. So if it's a low amount, let's just say it's £10,000. You can offer £10,000 as option consideration. If it's £24,000, you know, you can offer them over a period of six months. If it's £100,000 or more or less. Offer them a loan facility so they can borrow the money when they need it and repay it when they don't need it because builders don't like money to sit in their accounts. But for me the main thing is I want those properties. I've already locked in an £80,000 discount of the prices because he mentioned the price. I'm taking over his mortgage payments. So yeah, even if I'm giving him an interest free loan and I'm losing, you know, not charging them interest, I've already made my money on the properties and then this one was agreed last week. So it's a constant thing, lease options. This is a referral, it's not the actual property because we've not exchanged yet. So I don't want to put the actual photograph there. But this is a referral. Tenanted buy to let. He needs a quick sale because he wants to put funds in another project. I have a feeling it's an auction property, but I don't know and I'm not digging. So recognize the vendor scenario? It's just an investor requiring funds quickly. The potential problems. He needs the funds for another deal. If he tries to sell the conventional way, it's going to be too slow. He's not going to get his funds on time. If he gets a cash offer, it's going to be a really, really low offer and he's not again, chances are he's not going to get the money in time. And even if you do find a cash buyer, you've got to be relying on solicitors the conventional way, which again is slow. It's not the same as having a solicitor deal with lease options where it's a lot more quick and you're more happy to waive inquiries. So the solutions, I can have the funds available to you on exchange in 30 days, which is what he wants. The option consideration is going to be low because I don't want to tie money up in the property, but he wants a certain amount out of the property. So I'm going to give him a loan facility so he has to repay me back after 12 months. So he's still getting the amount of money that he needs, but I'm not tying it up in the property for five years. We can exchange in four weeks. But as I say this, in this case it's 30 days. That's what he's quoted me. And the sisters I use and the sisters I refer my vendors to that are used to working with my solicitors will get this through as quick as we want. You know, we've had them through in two weeks, three weeks, four weeks isn't an issue at all. So again, how easy can an option be? How much does he look likely to achieve? Well, it's already on the market and he's not been able to achieve that. So we use price comparables to manage their price expectation. But it all comes down to how much does he need for his project because that's the option consideration or the amount that we're paying to him on, on exchange. We ask the outstanding mortgage payments and how long is left. We calculate the equity, but again the figure we're focusing on is how much does he want for his other project? And obviously it can't be more than the equity he's got in the property. And then all we do like the previous developer is we make a similar amount available, not necessarily as option consideration. I do loans because if they default or anything, I can take the loan to the judge and the judge will find in my favor quickly. Whereas I'm never going to get possession of a property because somebody defaults on a 20 or 30,000 pound loan. Not easily anyway. Okay. So I always like to go for the loan agreements because it just speeds everything up for me, gets in their money and I've not got money tied into a property long term. And I believe that brings us to an end. So we've just got time for questions if everything's okay.

Fantastic. No, do you know what you mentioned about the fact that it was going to be so simple and straightforward and he certainly delivered on that. So as you mentioned, it's time for questions. I've got a few questions myself, but I thought I'd go into the audience before we go into my question. So the first question we've got is from Trent Know. It's from Gertrude and it says how does Mark deal with the estate agents fee.

With this agency fee? Okay, I will always, I will always. I'm getting a bit of vibration. You will pay it on behalf of the vendor, but it will be deducted off the purchase price. Now you've not always got to do that, but with, with options you're making things simple for the vendor. And if you think about it, normally they're not receiving any money on exchange, which means they're paying the estate agent out of their own pocket. But the real reason that I do this is that I want that agent to know that they're getting their fee quickly on exchange. I'm going to be paying it on behalf of their client and it's being paid through the solicitors, so they know it's all legitimate. So I'll say, can you send an invoice to me as we're approaching exchange? So you will always pay it on behalf of the vendor, but always have it deducted off the purchase price.

Fantastic. Hope that helps, Kurt. So we've got a couple of questions from Bruce and I think I know the answer to it and it could be quite simply just ask. But Bruce says, how do we find out what their mortgage payment, what their mortgage is? And then he also said, how do you get the vendors email address?

Okay, well the first question, and that's a good question, because people always make this mistake. If you go straight to an agent or a vendor and you ask them questions about mortgage, their mortgage, you're a complete stranger. They're not going to understand why you want that information. So what you're going to do is you're going to have to get them to understand why you want that information. And it might be something as simple as the email with a delay. First of all, you see that they're interested in it and you point out that the problems and the solutions, and one of the solutions is a delayed completion from the date of exchange. I will be taking over your mortgage payments. Can you confirm how much they are and how much is outstanding? So they now understand why you want that information because they know that you're going to be taking over the mortgage payments. And then the second question. Sorry, was.

The second question was how do you get the vendor's email address?

Okay, right. If you're dealing through an estate agent that to begin with, you want the estate agent doing all the communication because it would, if they're communicating on your behalf, the vendor is going to give them a lot more information because the trust is there. But at the point where you know that a sale is going to be agreed, then you will ask the estate agent to ask the vendor's permission to release the email address so you can contact them direct and copy the agent in. Okay. Alternatively, if you're doing a viewing, if you're still doing viewings and the vendors at the property, what you want and whether the agent's there or not, what you want to say is if you are interested in the property, say I'm very interested in the property. I'm going to go back home now and speak to my partner or do a little bit of research. Could I email you my offer this evening? But it's going to be out of Office hours. It's going to be around about 9 or 10 o'. Clock. Yeah. And they will give you their email address because they want the offer. Now if the agent's there, you've got to be very quick here. You jump straight in and say exactly what I just said and say, and I'm going to email you the offer this evening, but I'm going to copy the agent in. Is that okay, Mr. Agent? And the agent like sits there caught in headlights and he'll say, yeah, as long as you copy me in and you'll get the vendor's email address.

That is so, so smart. Okay, on to the next question. So there's a big double question here, but it says, what about the mortgage repayments? And this is from Trent, but I think it was referring to an example. And the example was where you were totaling the return with the rent payment and capital gain, but without the mortgage payments being deducted. He's saying that. I thought you were paying the mortgages, Mark.

Oh, no, no, you are paying the mortgages. But what the figures that I showed was the net rent after the mortgage has been paid. So when you're paying a mortgage, the interest element is just payable to the mortgage company. But if it's a capital repayment mortgage, the capital element is actually deducted off the balance. You don't have to agree that that's automatically in the agreements. And that's why I love repayment mortgages, because you're actually paying down the debt over a period of time. And with repayment mortgages, the interest rates lower and you generally have got better terms. Okay. You've just got to make sure you get the consent to let.

Perfect. Okay. So the next question, I think it was referring to the rent to rent, what you were talking about. And the reason why somebody might not want the rent to rent is because they see the value at the end of the property. So it is. What percentage of the uplift do you offer if a renovation happens or does.

Not happen, it's always comes down to that first rule. Ask them how, if we, if we can actually decide to split the profits over a certain figure, what percentage would you be looking for? You would think that they would automatically ask 50. 50. But in my, in my experience, they tend to go for 25. So they'll get 25% and you'll get 75%. But one thing that you want to do is you want to cover yourself. So on that example, you know, 775, 000, what I would want to do is I want to make sure I make at least a hundred thousand pounds profit. So we would say anything over £875,000, we will split X percent. So I've already locked in a certain profit and it's anything above that figure. But what you'll find is, it's, it's the dialogue that you have with the landlord or the vendor where that figure comes from.

Fantastic. So, Nancy, again, a question as well. And this is regarding. So how could you achieve 6k per month when the vendor couldn't? What did you do differently? Did you operate a HMO or serviced accommodation?

No, it was just 10 flats. So the thing is that when I took over, the rents were like 450 to £495 because it was like the lower type of tenants, I mean, you know, some of them benefit, most of them were drug addicts, that kind of thing. But all you've got to do is you get the tenants out and you put new tenants in and then you control the block of 10. So they all, all went on at a rent of 595. You know, there's no, no discounts to pay one off against the other. So you dictate the rate. So all you do is you just get a better tenant in there and you go for market rents. It's just that the rent to rent operator, I get a feeling he just wanted to fill rooms, so he just let it at whatever he could. Now, interestingly, that vendor, if he had done all this himself, he could have just used a letting agent. The Latin agent would have gotten £6,000 and he would have just taken the commission. But you're there, probably you're solving a problem. They've obviously got an issue that they're doing a rent to rent, otherwise they could have just let the properties out themselves using a letting agent.

Brilliant. That helps on Nancy, everybody thinks, because. Sorry. So the next question is about stamp duty. Is there any stamp duty liability on a deposit? And that's from Catherine.

No, because it's deductible off the purchase price. So. And remember, you're not actually going. You pay it when you complete. Okay. And we're not completing on these properties unless we choose to at the end of the option period. So no stamp duty?

No, thought that was the case. And then could you kindly explain what a delayed completion is? And there's Newbie here, and that's from Mittell.

Okay. Yeah. So a delayed completion is the terminology we use. If you say a lease option to an estate agent or a vendor, they'll go straight on Google, they'll read a lot of bad press and they won't do the deal with you. But you can use the term exchange with a delayed completion. That has a different legal meaning. But if you use delayed completion, everybody understands that they think they know what a delayed completion is so they're more familiar with it. So they're opening to ask for more information. So it's just the terminology I use because you don't mention lease option, you don't use assisted sale, you don't want to use exchange with delayed completion, that you want to use delayed completion.

Fantastic. So Paul's got a question now. Do you have separate agreements for the lease and, and the purchase? And on exchange means exchange release contracts and not of purchase contracts.

Yeah. Right. So again it's a terminology thing. I, I use the term exchange where it means you just, you and the other parties sign paperwork. So it's not like an exchange the normal way where you're now committed. So what will happen is with the lease option you'll get two agreements. You'll get the lease and then you'll get the actual option agreement and you'll get a power of attorney as well. Okay. So the solicitors deal with all that and all you do is you sign all the paperwork. You don't want to get bogged down with the legal stuff. So the way you think about it is basically I've just got the one agreement in place and that's the option agreement. Everything else is just to serve the legal and the technical side. But again, when we're talking to vendors and agents, we want to keep everything so simple. It's just that, you know, my solicitor will have the contracts with you within 72 hours. You know, I'll draft a heads of terms which is a simple one page document for you to check. You don't want to go down into the legal, legal side of things.

Yeah. So as we keep saying, just keep it simple. Okay, so the next question that we've got is what? And it's a good question actually, I think quite a few people have probably thought about this is what can you do if the potential seller changes his or her mind to sell even though they agreed at the beginning?

Yeah, this is a really, really common question, but you know, the question normally comes from the vendor because the vendor wants to know what you'll do if you change your mind. Because the vendor, their biggest fear is that they will end up with that property back. And what everybody needs to understand is once you've exchanged, you Never hear from the vendor again unless you want to contact them. They forget about their property. So, first of all, they will never want their property back. I've been doing this since 2012. It's never even come up in conversation, even when they see sometimes how much money you've made. Because when you find a buyer, if the buyer's paying me 300,000 and I've agreed 100,000, he will see that contract with the buyer because he has to sign it and he'll think Mark's made 200,000, but it never comes up. But from a legal point of view, you're protected by a charge on the register and the option agreement. So although apparently it's never been tested, I've been advised you have got a power of attorney for the purpose of actually completing if the vendor wouldn't go ahead or you can't find the vendor. But realistically, what would actually happen is you would go to court and they would look at the paperwork and find in your favor to 100% protect yourself. Make sure that the other party, the vendor, always has a solicitor because that's what a judge would look at. Did they have legal advice or did you try and sort of like pull the wool over their eyes? If both of you were represented by solicitors, the judge would always find in your favor. But it's never even come up in all the options I've ever done.

That's incredible, considering you've done, what, over 90? Well, you've done more than that over, over the last, like, 10, 15 years. And that's not come up once. Okay.

Do you know what? And. And again, because it's experience, it's a number of years, you know that this works. Most of the people that you do options with will become private investors with you because you built that trust. They will make so many referrals to you because you've done exactly what you said you were going to do. You know, you still get. I still get emails from some of them wishing me a Happy Christmas and things like that. Yeah. So, you know, they always are thankful because you've helped them sell a property on terms that they couldn't get elsewhere.

No, absolutely. Okay, we've got a final couple of questions. So we're on to the tax now. So what are the tax benefits and how do you structure it?

The major tax benefits for me as an investor are. That's a really good question because you can get so deep into this. The main benefits for us as an investor is we don't pay stamp duty okay. Now also if I'm going to put the lease option in my company, the rents are going to my company, so I'm not affected by section 24. The benefits for the vendor is if it's in his personal name, the options now out of his name, so he's not got to worry about Section 24 tax or the income. Something that's often missed is that because he's not sold the property, he doesn't pay capital gains tax within 60 days. Now a little twist on what I do with lease options with the bigger properties and portfolio landlords now is rather than paying them rent, I give them like I did with the hotels, I pay them a certain amount and it's deductible from the purchase price. So let's just state the thing. If they've got a property worth 300,000 and I agree a 10 year lease option to pay them so much a month for 10 years or even five years, if I pay them so much for five years every month, they don't pay tax on those monthly payments because it's not income, it's not rent, so they don't pay income tax. And you only pay capital gains tax when you complete. So if we don't complete for five years, they've had monthly payments without any tax liability for five years, they'll pay tax in the end, but they delay it so they get to use that money tax free for five years. And that's massive.

Brilliant. And I think the next question was, I think you've already covered it. Is there any capital gains tax payable on completion on the capital gain?

Yeah, but only when you eventually complete. So if you've got a five year lease option and you let it run into five years, that's when they'll pay the capital gains, but it will only be on the price you agreed five years earlier.

Brilliant. Brilliant. So I think that's the questions from the community members. I've got a couple of questions. So my question is, I think one of the things that's holding me back from a leased option is the refurb cost from getting in there. And then traditionally a lot of people do lease options and they keep them as buy to let. So first question is, what is the average cost of getting into the leased option? And then the second question is, do you do many other strategies on top of the lease option? And I think you have kind of touched on that.

Yeah. So a lease option can be used with anything you, you do back to back refurbs. HMOs don't you?

I do HMOs, yeah.

So your solicitor won't be keen on you paying for that because the risk is always there because you're putting so much money into it and you don't own the property. So what I would normally do in that situation is that I would agree to buy it, exchange with a delayed completion. So it's exactly the same as the lease option, only you now own the property. So on the date of exchange, you're committed to buy it. But what you might do is you might do an exchange with a delayed completion for five years, so you complete on it. So you exchange on it and then you've got, you can spend the money on your property, but you don't have to pay him for five years. But what you'll probably do is that you'll do the refurbishment and then after, I don't know, 12 months, 18 months, you'll want to refinance it so you're complete on it then. And then you'll refinance it at the market value immediately because you know, you've not got to wait for the six month rule or you might want to use vendor finance so that the vendor becomes the lender for the entire period. But the main thing for you, because you're throwing so much money at it, is that you want to make sure you earn it from the date of exchange change.

Okay, brilliant. Fantastic.

Yeah. Other strategies. Yeah, you can use it for getting planning permission, assisted sales, which is like a shorter period of time. What I'm doing at the moment in the market, because a lot of people now are selling off their portfolios or the bigger properties and a lot of them don't have mortgages on them. So what I'm finding is they're offering them a monthly payment that's coming off the purchase. Purchase price is working on literally everything. You can use this very well on, on title splits. If you buy a building of, say four flats, what will happen is you'll agree a lease option on each flat and let's say you've got, at the end of the first year, you complete on that option, that's when that title split and then you'll get that refinance. And then the second year you can do the other flat. But yeah, you can literally just use it on any type of property. It's all to do with how you get the money to the vendor.

Brilliant. Okay, so the final question, and it's a good one, so how can you help our wonderful community members and how can our wonderful community members help you?

Well, there's a, there's the Property Filter videos. I think there's about four or five in there now. Similar kind of things. Am I allowed to mention my mastermind?

Exactly that. That's what I'm trying.

I didn't know that's what you were getting at.

Okay, so.

Yeah, sorry. I run one every. Every nine months.

It's.

It's once every nine months. It's once a year now. The next one starts on the 26th of June, but just go to my Facebook profile to find out details rather than me going it through here. But it's like a nine month program where we go through scripts, transcripts, you have the transcripts and I'm there to sort of talk you through the deal. So I negotiate a lot of the deals on your behalf until you get the hang of it. But no, thanks for that. Appreciate that.

No, no problem. Well, it's time to wrap things up so thank you to everyone for joining us today. I hope you find today's deal finder corner marvelous. It was an absolute pleasure to have you. Mark. Of course you've given so much value. I've made so many notes and no, no doubt that our members got an unbelievable amount of value as well. So all they're left to say is Visit Property Filter co uk log on to the Property Filter account, check out the deal blueprint, define your gold mine area, engage with motivated sellers, assess properties in seconds, load your pipeline and make deals, have an ended supply of deals, join the top 1% and become a high achiever deal finder. So that's me, Acid from Property Filter. Looking forward to seeing you all next week, but in the meantime, go and grab them deals. Catch you soon. And thanks again folks.