🏠Exempt Accommodation or Supported Living? Understand The Best Strategies Working Now w/ Nisha Patel

Hello, good afternoon. Welcome to joining this week's Deal Finder Corner. So this is your weekly property talk show brought to you by Propertyfilter, hosted by myself, Guillaume Black, your favorite Frenchman, the CEO and co-founder of Propertyfilter. As you know, this is the highest-rated platform to find deals, and we are on a mission to empower you guys, all property investor deal sourcer members, to find thousands of deals this year thanks to the Propertyfilter Blueprint like we've done for the last few years. So the purpose really with this Deal Finder Corner is to give you more and the best of the available resources, you know, secrets, tactics, what's actually working right now, the current strategies, well, what actually works in terms of finding and making deals, and the reality of systemizing and running a high-performance business in property. So it's a very, very overdue episode we have tonight. So it really is my pleasure to introduce my very good friend Nisha Patel on today's Deal Finder Corner. So You might not know, but Nisha would have been amongst the early adopters, one of the, I think, single-digit first members to Propertyfilter so many years ago now, and be part of that community ever since. She's a former data analyst. She's got 18 years experience in the sector that she's applied to her mindset and her analytical view to property investing. She specializes in data-driven deal sourcing using property history to track motivation, all the things we talk about in this community. And she's really, really good at identifying profitable opportunities that she gets to go and negotiate really cool, favorable, cheap, or creative terms with. So just, I think since the start of the year, she's had like $50K discount on just one, just monitoring one deal. So she's done really well with that. And we're very proud to that she's using Propertyfilter2 for. So she mainly does HMO developments and looks at those properties brought off market. And she's done quite a few deals combining research and landlord outreach from the tools you guys have got access to here as well. So that's the main landlord experience and what she does. But outside of that, she runs something called the Care Property Hub, which basically helps broker relationships between landlords and care providers. So this episode is going to be really, really great for you if you want to have a clear breakout breakdown between what's the difference between exempt accommodation or supported living. All these are actually simpler than what we think and why you should one model instead of another. She talked about contract structures, the difference between what protects you and separates you from a risky deal and the ones are contract that protects you or not. All the rent model works for this different structure. So, or who pays who, how does that work, who can reliably collect the rent, who is at risk, and who gets the money, right? And we talk about risk, how do you mitigate risk. So understanding different tenancy liabilities, real risks that, you know, are real in this sector and how you can basically protect yourself from these. Lessons from real deals, so insider knowledge from her own deals, the ones she sees being brokered to the platform. And we talk about how you can remove the emotion to validate every deal and move forward. So very much looking forward to this talk today. So please join me in giving a massive Propertyfilter virtual welcome to my good friend Nisha Patel.

Hello! Oh, thank you, thank you, Guillaume. Okay, so share— I just share my screen? Yeah, I think— no, that's not the one. Just a second, let me have a look.

Yeah, if you go on the fourth button, uh, and then it should give you an option there which screen you want. I should— I would— if I were you, I'd go with entire screen.

That's the one that actually I need to share.

Awesome. If you go present to view, and so—

okay, let me— okay, yeah, so I am sharing, and let me just— sorry, I've got two screens as you guys can see.

All good.

Yeah. Yes, I think— do you know what, my computer is going to get a bit funny, but because of two screens, just give me a second to sort this one out. But yes, thank you so much for the intro, and I must say, being a data analyst, uh, while actually a PropFilter came out I remember that I was taking like about an hour to get all that data in because for me it's all about data. For me it's about I'll do my decision through the data. I can't do anything else, has to be data. So I remember when actually I met Guillaume's Property Filter, I was like, damn, this actually has everything that actually I need. So yeah, was one of the early adopters. Okay, so I believe you guys can see my screen.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, all good. Yeah, perfect.

Yeah, anyone? Yes, it's fine, right? Okay, so my background, uh, so I— so as I started, uh, I started in COVID time, which was a hate, uh, which was that time when actually everything just stopped. And I just thought, okay, what the hell I want to do with my life? And I thought of property simply because property, uh, was something that actually I invested in 2007. If everyone remembers 2007, 2008, everyone was just buying the property because everyone was getting a mortgage. So So I've got one. Look, I didn't know property at all, so I, I did bought it wrong because in 2008 my property was valued less than what actually I bought it from. But I had a tenant in there, so it kind of paid my rent. I thought, okay, that's fair enough. Then I bought another one in 2014, and that was another buy-to-let, but that was much better, at least the— it wasn't like, uh, bad as my first one. And in 2020, when actually I was thinking I want to do something different, and I thought, okay, what actually is going to be? And I thought of property. But at that time, I was still at the full time in my day job. And I tell you what, when actually you are on full time on your day job doing something, it's kind of difficult because I didn't know how to start, where to start. And suddenly I came through a redundancy, and I just thought, okay, so this is a sign from universe for me to change from a full-time to possibly like, let's do property. And I thought, okay, that's fair enough. I negotiated my redundancy. And while negotiating redundancy, I thought, okay, because I was in a project, so I had like 14 months left. And by negotiating my redundancy, um, I just wanted to build something on the side, wanted to build a property business. But by not having any sort of, any sort of experience or no background or not even any links to property or not knowing anyone, it was a challenge. So this is when actually I invested in myself, and when actually I was in— I invested in myself, I met quite a lot of people. One of them was Guillaume Black, Property Filter, and this is where actually my journey started. So I started from something called HMOs, rent to rents. This is where actually my journey started because I needed a cash flow after a year. So I started doing HMO after— in 2022, 1st of October 2022, I was full-time in property. Gosh, I really thought that I, I just made it, I just made it, because like this I was able to have, uh, time for my kids. I mean, it was all about having my calendar on my hand because I live with my in-laws they are getting age and they need hospital appointments here and there. And I didn't want it to go to work like all the times, like, listen, I need this time off, I need that time off, can I make this up? All that kind of thing. Or when actually I want to take a holiday because my parents were in Portugal. So my background is Portuguese. So my parents are in Portugal and my dad wasn't well and I wanted to spend more time with my dad. So I was like, finally I will have more time with my dad. And in February '23, he leaves this world. And seriously, at that point, looked like that the world just collapsed because I made all these changes so I could spend more time with him and he wasn't there. But he left me a lot of lessons because while I— while he was He wasn't well and he had dementia. He was in a wheelchair. He lost his motor skills. My mother became a full-time carer. Around the life actually changed completely, uh, when it— in, in last 10, 12 years that actually he wasn't well, in and out of hospitals. Uh, we didn't know whether he would return it back or not. But all those changes that even we had to make to the, to the house, uh, so he could be as comfortable as possible. And when actually he passed away and I came back, this is a time that actually made me think about it, that the situation over here is not the best either. I mean, not very different to Portugal. And it also happens that I had this— my best friend's daughter She, she was born, um, she was born with the muscles problem, so her muscle didn't develop and she was in a wheelchair. And the trouble that actually we had to find the property for her, just like what actually we have to go through just to find something for her. And this kind of made me think, uh, that why we are not able to help these people, because What actually they want is just— in fact, this friend of mine, uh, this my friend's daughter, the only thing she wanted was to be independent, and she was full of life. She looked alive, very positive way, even though she was limited to a wheelchair. Unfortunately, she passed away December last year, not December 25th, December 24th, while actually I was doing a launch of Care Property Hub and that. She actually helped me through, uh, some of the things where actually I used to talk with her. Um, but yes, it is for them that actually the Care Property Hub came from, because I know the pain of looking after a loved one who has these challenges. And this is what actually I wanted to facilitate, because I I do have a background of a property investor now. I do know a lot of people. We have a big community, property investors based in Birmingham, and I just thought, why the hell we can't do this? The problem that actually we were having and all the landlords get through is like, how the hell I contact the care provider? How do I get in contact with them? What do they want? And this is why the Care Property Hub exists. So it's a platform where we connect care providers to properties. Now I'm going to start with talking about exempt accommodations, because when actually you are working with care providers, there are different sort of strategies, and I believe there are about 11 of them. But let's talk about exempt accommodation and supported living, uh, CQC registered, because There is a massive difference, although it looks the same. So in exempt accommodation, it could be a shared housing, multiple tenants, uh, they will be living together, about 5 to 6. It could be about 5 to 6 beds. Uh, it needs to have a HMO compliance, not a HMO license, but all the complaints like fire doors, uh, fire alarms, um, um and you will need to also provide the furniture. Well, this is like what the care providers will have to do, provide the furniture. What type of tenant it goes in there? It will be, uh, people who actually has a light mental health issues, and I wouldn't say as severe, uh, they have been homeless. So basically they lost the job, they need some sort of support with their CVs or applying the jobs so they can go back to the community. It could be people who actually have some learning difficulty, not a severe, again, learning disability, but it also could be young people who is just leaving the care, and they will be living all in the shared, uh, shared house, just like a HMO type. This will be again funded by the government. It has a lease for 3 to 5 years. Normally, I— okay, so let me tell you, normally what will happen if you have a property, uh, with, uh, you want to rent to exempt accommodation, it's very straightforward. Within 4 weeks, that property can be taken off from you, uh, because it will be just a care provider coming to your property, see, right, okay, that's fine, 'Fine, that's fine. We possibly need a fire strip over here. That fire door needs to have this. Possibly that lock needs to be changed.' That sort of the details that actually will need it, they will say to you to upgrade your property so they can take it over. And they will— once you do that, it's taken over. Simple as that. When actually it comes to supported living, this depends more on the demand of what actually is needed. So it could be like for people who— it's like elderly who need some support. They can still live by themselves, but they need some support. It could be severe disabilities, learning disabilities, mental health. So these are severe mental health. Now, when actually compared to supported accommodation, they would have a package of 5 hours a week of care, right? This is on exempt accommodation. So this will be like people like to write CVs or help them with the CVs, or even they can be remind them to taking the medication, remind them to taking of the medication if they are in any medication, uh, help cook, uh, help with cooking, like cooking classes, not cooking for them, but like cooking classes, like teach them how to cook. That will be like a 5 hours of care package. On this, there will be more hours of care package, could like be 24/7 care package, could be someone who actually needs to be at night and few hours during the day. It definitely, it needs more care and will have a personal care. They can also give the medication. So this is where actually you can give the medication. Now, how actually this works, I tell you. So I had this guy called Andy. So Andy, he is a young lad, 22 years old, but he's autistic. His parents are getting old and his parents like, okay, it's some time that Andy has his own space. So his parents like, okay, we are on this area, we want Andy to live in this area. So they were very specific with the postcode. We want this postcode be, you know, postcode. We want at least 2 bedrooms. So one is for him, for Andrew, and another one for the carer. So it will be a living carer with, uh, with Andrew, with Andy. And they wanted to be surrounded on their local area. So Andy surrounded by his parents, by his friends, family. So all that. So we got this property, uh, for Andy, which was really like refurbed, um, just been refurbed. And, uh, the carer— so first of all, the carer came out, the, the care provider came out. Care providers like, oh, this is lovely property, I love this, I am going to contact this tenant and that tenant. They, they had like 2 or 3 tenants that actually they were bidding the package. I am going to explain what bidding the package means in a bit. So they were bidding the package and they were like, okay, let's call 2 or 3 people, uh, 2 or 3 tenants who actually can view this house. Um, they called and one of them was Andy's parents. Uh, Andy's parents came along. Andy didn't come along because And it's parents who actually takes decision for Andy. Social worker for Andy came along and they look around the house, all fine. They come to the bathrooms like, that toilet, that toilet is too small, my Andy is too big. And we were just like, oh, all right. So the carer didn't know about that. Right, so how actually it works with the care aside, so every council will have their software, software where the social worker will put, okay, we need one bed or two bed and it is going to be for— they won't even say the name, they will just say like one bed to two bed and we need like a walking shower or yes, it can be a bathroom, they can go up the stairs. They will have some information, but it's very minimal information that software would have. That is what actually it's called a framework. And on that framework, they would have like packages. That is what actually calls these packages is basically, you know, one social worker will put, okay, this is what actually is needed. That is one package, another package, all these packages, uh, that actually it's listed. The care provider will go in there and say, okay, I've got a property in that area, I can bid on that package. And they can— the care provider can only bid it when actually they have a property. If they don't have a property, they can't bid it, because once they have a property, they have to take a social worker out. So they can only bid it if there is a property. So they'll choose, okay, we can bid on this, this, and this. And then next stage is taking a care provider, take a social provider out. Now it can't be something like, you know, how most of property investors, we work, right? We say yes and we make it as we go along. Care providers can't do that because if the property is not there and they are not able to show the care provider, their bidding won't have the same level of interest on the next time, right? So they have to be careful with stuff like that. So they bid the, uh, the, uh, the tender, and they'll show the property, and then they will say, okay, we can take care of Andrew for this much. And that is how actually it works. Now, on that one, Andy didn't like it. Well, Andy's parents didn't like it because of the toilet. But suppose If everything was fine, what would happen, uh, with that, which actually normally happens, once the social worker and, uh, and his advocates, they agree with it, then it will go for a paper to sign off. So the social worker will have to sign off, and then commissioners has to sign off and agree with that. Now, just that process can take weeks. Right, so imagine when actually I, uh, call a care provider, she took 2 weeks to come out. Then another visit with Andy's parents and the social worker, that was about 3 and a half to 4 weeks because social worker was quite busy. Now to do all the paperwork again, uh, and get all that paper signed off, only God knows how long it takes. Just to say, right, I have another property, uh, which actually tenant liked it. Uh, it was brother and sister, so brother was dependent on sister and he needed the full-time care, and they absolutely loved the property. Uh, social worker gave a hands up as well, thumbs up as well. And when actually it came to sign off the property I was like, okay, uh, I was asking the care provider, look, we need to sign off because this landlord has been waiting for 7 weeks now. And the providers, yeah, of course, social worker and all of them, we all agreed that, uh, this tenant is going to be quite well on there. And she's calling the care provider and she's not getting it through. This is care provider— sorry, care provider is calling the social worker and she's not getting it through. Then sister, the tenant sister, uh, is also trying to contact the social worker and she became to know that he's gone to holiday for 4 weeks and he didn't even put her out of her office or anything like that. And to get somebody else on that case, uh, because that is what actually happens because he's on holiday, they can have somebody else on that case, which actually can take possibly 2 to 3 weeks, uh, for that person to come in. And then they will have to review everything. And at that point, landlord just had enough. So, you know, it just depends how patient you are, or how, you know, who do you want on your property. So this was like, it's more likely going to be a single tenancy or they might, even if it's like a big property. So I have worked with the provider, but the property was a 4-bedroom, uh, 4-bedroom, and downstairs it had a room downstairs and 3 upstairs. So downstairs they were able to put someone who was with the wheelchair, and upstairs they put somebody else. So they were able to work like that, and there was a full-time, uh, carer with them. So basically, on those will be, uh, more autistic people, learning disabilities, who needs a full-time care. So this is a supported living CQC, and they need to be CQC registered because there is a personal care. Okay, so this is just a comparison between two of them. Both of them, both of them are long, uh, term, right? But the thing with this one, right, uh, now imagine if Andy, who is 22 years old, um, that property was fine with him. I mean, everything went well, Andy would be there for life, or at least for quite a few years. It wouldn't be like 3 to 5 years. It would be like more than 5 years. Um, because I worked with this provider, and this provider has few tenancies going over 10 to 12 years, because once the— once, uh, the tenant is used to that area and used to the house, it's very hard, very difficult to move them along, right? Um, so it's not as easy to move them out. Also, when actually it comes to the rent, if you are working, and more likely if a provider has an RSL— and try to work with the provider who is RSL or a CIC registered, because if they are RSL and CIC registered, they would be able to request for enhanced rent for the property. And if there is an RSL involved, then RSL will look after the property, will do all of the paperwork for the tenant, and it's RSL who is going to be paying landlord for the property, maintain the property, and it's RSL who actually is going to pay the care provider to look after the tenant. And that is a best setup if you can work up with RSL, because then you have your property well taken care of and care provider just needs to provide the care. But we also work with providers who are CIC, and they have their own internal team who actually is looking after the property. So supported accommodation contracts are in process. So supported accommodation, so exempt accommodation, basically will give you LHA rate plus 10 to 20% uplift. So that would be more likely your rent when actually it comes to exempt accommodation. Uh, so let's have a look. Birmingham is 78. Which is 15% uplift is 90, so that is £392 per room. And if you have 6 of them, it can give you about £2,400 per month. It's roughly about that. So that is a Birmingham case. Now let's talk about contracts and rent. So I spoke very briefly about the contracts, very it's supported with exempt accommodation, it's normally about 3 to 5 years. But when actually it comes to supported living, you could have 10 to 15 years. And their rent on the supported living, it's not LHA-based, it's set up by landlord or RSL. Now, uh, it's funny, let me tell you something. Um, so Let's have a look if we have like a bungalow. So we had this bungalow and landlord was asking about, was it about 350, 400, 400 per week for the bungalow. Now the price for that bungalow in the normal rental market is around 200. So he's asking basically double. Now what actually councils will do when actually the commissioner has to pass this through, they will look around what actually they paying for the similar properties, adapted properties. So if they are paying £250, if they are paying £275, or if they're paying £310, that is what actually they will go. It's not something that, oh yeah, I've made these changes and I feel like asking £500 per week for my property. Commissioners will challenge that. They definitely— it's going to be challenged. Um, another thing, so yes, the Commissioner signed off. So I'm not saying that if you don't ask, you don't get, uh, but yes, be reasonable of what actually you're asking because Commissioners, they are quite clued on. But what actually you have to look is like you can have 10 to 15 years if it works well, right? And another thing that actually I would always— I know that everyone wants this 20 years, 25 years lease, but I think there is more risk on that, uh, to have a longer lease, uh, than having this short lease. Because at least on the short lease, you know where is market going, you know how is your provider because this provider— okay, I'm going a bit off of this, but just give you a bit of a back— like what actually can happen with 25 years lease or 15, 20 years lease. This provider could lose that contract. Yeah, if they lose their contract, they are still Yeah, you know, they are still with— they could lose the contract for the tenant, right? So the tenant could say, oh, I don't like this provider, I want to, you know, and they could lose this contract. Or either could, could— what actually can happen, the new provider that comes in takes over the house, or if new provider have the house, they will go with that house. And what will happen, you're the provider that actually have a contract with they are still liable possibly to pay. So what actually they will do, they will try and find another tenant if they are lucky. If they are not lucky, you know, they could have a tenant here and there, and they might struggle to pay you. And because they still want to have that business, they might not even give your property back. And this struggle could also not just struggle to pay the rent but struggle to maintain your property. So I really think about like 5, 5 years, 10 years lease is the best, because then you can actually see how is the market going and you can keep renewing. Because remember, it's very hard to move that tenant. Now, frameworks and tenant types. So we spoke about the tenant types, exempt accommodations, and support supported living. Um, there could be— yes, as you know, we are going at the phase that, uh, that our population is, uh, getting mature. So we have quite a lot of elderly people. Now let's just go through— I'm a data analyst, so I had to go through a few numbers, and this is for you guys to understand. What is the demand of supported housing. So currently supported housing units in Great Britain— so this is units, units means is like one bed, that is what actually it means. So currently we have 634,000 units in whole UK, and out of the 634,000 units, uh, that actually falls under exempt accommodation So this is exempt accommodation, is about one-third. So one-third of all this 634 units is on exempt accommodation. So housing benefits, uh, about £215,000. Now this was about me, who is Nish Patel. Uh, projector, you guys know about it. And if anyone wants to have a QR code for my Care Property Hub, for the Care Property Hub platform. So this is where we— you will upload your property, we check your property against the demand, and we matchmake you with the provider. So you won't have— we also, one of the things that actually we do is we check our providers, we verify our providers, so we check their company, check their credit, we check if they are working with another properties, how are those properties being maintained, um, these, and we speak with some of their landlords so we understand how they communicate, um, and why we are doing this because we don't want any of our landlords' properties to be trashed. This is something that we don't really want it, hence we work with credible providers. Now, what is the current gap? That— how many more units do you think we need today? So although we have 634,000 units, but that is not enough. We actually are down. We need more, about 180,000 to 390,000 units, and this is in addition to 634,000 units. And by 2040 we will be needing about the double of it. So we are— by— we will be needing about 1 million to 1.3 million. So this is what actually it's the need. So the demand is growing, it's not going down. This is what actually the forecast is by the government. Now, who needs more supported housing? So who are the most tenants that actually are in this? So most of them is elderly, 71% of them. Learning disabilities, 15%. Mental health, 9%. And homeless is about 9%, about 5%. Who needs a short-term care and then they are going into the community. Now I wanted to say, right, the top 5 areas that actually needs temporary accommodation. So London is on top of them, Southeast, West Midlands, uh, especially in Birmingham. We know in Birmingham, just in Birmingham, we have 30,000 units of exempt accommodation. 30,000 units. This is what actually Birmingham is. Understanding the scale, so 131,000 households in temporary accommodation. So we know that London will be, uh, that top location where actually more housing, temporary accommodation is needed. Now what this means for property investors Now there is a high demand, as we know, in London, in Southeast and West Midlands, and we know that councils won't be able to build all these. I mean, government has this target of 1.5 million homes in 5 years. I think I would be happy if they do at least 300, you know, by end of 5 years, which I don't even think they would be able to do it by the way the things how actually they're going. And there is a growing need for supported living, and one of the reasons is our population is getting old, right? And we will need to support— I mean, I will be one of those in 30 years' time. Well, but that is what actually we will need. Hence, this is a strategy that will be here for next few years. And we will be able to help the government if they'll, you know, with all the policies that actually they're doing now with Section 24 and not being able to get the house back. At least it is with supported living or exempt accommodation, it is a company let contract. And if the, if the care provider is not paying you, you can have your house back. Another interesting thing that actually you need to understand is when there is this supported— mainly on supported accommodation or exempt accommodation, supported living— the tenants who actually are in that property, mainly on the exempt accommodation, the tenants that actually are in that property property, they don't have an AST. They have this whole thing, license. Um, so it will be easier to move these tenants. So if you want your house back, uh, these tenants would be moved to another property because for them that is a temporary accommodation. So they will be moved to another property within 24 hours. That is what actually their turnaround is. So there is a massive demand. We know there is a long-term security, and more than anything, it is ethical investing because remember, you are helping someone by providing, uh, by providing a place, whether it's someone is homeless or whether someone is autistic or someone is on a wheelchair, you are changing their life. So this is, uh, some more, um, statistic about it. Gosh, couldn't really say that word. So 81% of them have overspent. 81% of council has overspent in the adult and social care, which I wasn't— I am not surprise at all. 8.4 billion is the gap between, uh, the funding gap between '28 and '29, and 2.8 billion is spent annually in the temporary accommodation for homeless households. So it is about 2.8, about 3 billion a year when actually it comes to temporary accommodation. Now, your opportunities— as we know, councils won't be able to meet all this. We will need partners like yourself, like landlord who has been investing and wants to secure a 3 to 5 years leases. And how much government has allocated over the 10 years, although they have allocated this for for 10 years, but this is not enough. It is £39 billion, but I tell you what, I don't think this is enough because, uh, because the demand is going up and they are forecasting this based on what actually they are currently spending. Um, so I think it will be much more than that, although this is what government has forecasted. Uh, so just to entry requirements for exempt accommodation supported living. Uh, so HMO compliant, uh, for the exempt accommodation location. Make sure it's well, uh, it has the good amenities, good transport links, and partner up with a provider that you can make your own checks. I mean, do your own due diligence when actually you are working with the provider or with the charity, check their Companies House. Companies House is free to go and check it. Check it how long they've been around. Check it if they can take you to the properties they are managing, right? Do all those due diligence because it's worth it for your investment. With the supported living, uh, yes, self-contained units, bungalows are really in high demand in few areas. In fact, I am just about to do a deal in Hull for a bungalow. It is a 2-bed detached, but yes, also look after who is the provider. Do your own due diligence on the provider. And this is the financial returns for the provider. You know, if you are in private rental and supported living, we know in private rental the biggest risk is tenant not paying and we are on the court. That is the biggest risk with the private rental. The investment case, why it matters— definitely there is a massive demand, but also it is a hands-off, it's a secure income. Because if the provider doesn't pay, you can take them out and have your house back. So this is a QR code if you want to know what sort of properties I need, because I work a lot, uh, with supported living, CQC registered, and it's important to understand what they need. And if you know what they need, then you can like think, okay, so there is a demand of this, so let's invest on that. So I have a demand every— so this is a newsletter that actually you can receive in your inbox where actually we share what sort of demands, uh, we have, what sort of properties we need for the care providers.

We—

I also write articles in LinkedIn every Monday and this is all about NHS system, temporary accommodation, children's homes. I am a numbers person, so I like to analyze what is government been spending and how we could spend it better, what would be the solution. So I write an article every Monday, which actually every Monday on LinkedIn, and I share that, and I also share that in the newsletter. And the demand, the properties that actually is needed, and everything else that actually is going in the care world. So yes, so now I'm going to stop sharing my, uh, presentation so we could do some Q&As if anybody has any questions.

Of course, yes, there will be plenty. Thanks a lot, Nisha, appreciate it. So I'm gonna go up on the questions. So the first one, uh, was, uh, I think it was on the— when you made the comment about the long leases and how care providers might come and go. And so what's the difference between, um, them losing their care package on a 5 to 10-year leases as well? Is it just less risky, but is it— what's the difference with that?

Right, that can happen. I tell you when actually that can happen. For example, when a provider is working directly with the landlord, the property rental— let's have a look— rent of the property is £1,000. That is what actually normal market rate is. The landlord wants £2,000, and the provider's like, okay, I really want to have this tender, right? Okay, I am not with RSL, but I know that I 'package of this end user, of this tenant, is really good. I will be able to pay some from his package to the landlord.' Then what happens? He's— the care for that user can be reduced because they are giving, you know, some of that money to the landlord. And when actually they lose that contract, they are still in the contract with the landlord. Of course the landlord wants their, you know, because that is what actually the contract is. But why the way they are losing their contract because they are not making enough money, care provider is not making enough money. So that means your property has not been looked after, that user and user, which is that tenant, is not being looked after. And it is all in the down rail. So I always say, right, to the landlords. If you really want to have a long-term relationship with this provider and making sure this, you know, that you have a long lease, you could— I'm not saying, you know, we are here to make money and I'm all about profit, but what another thing I'm about is like being fair, being fair, um, and understand that on the end there is this end user that actually the care is needed and some of his money, that actually his finance can go towards the house. And if the care provider loses the contract, before he losing the contract, there will be a lot of things, you know, because losing the contract will be the last thing. The first bit you will notice is possibly they come a bit late with the rental or the maintenance is not done, so it is not the right thing, you know, it won't really work as it should be working. So I hope I answered the question.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you'll see the signs before, and then basically it's not because the lease is longer and you are more— that is more— you are more secure, you know. A question from Rita is, does Care Property Hub only work in Birmingham?

No, we are all across, uh, in England and not in Wales. Uh, we are also working very closely with Hanif, and we have few providers supported, uh, with CQC in, in London, in North. In fact, the, the bungalow deal that actually I'm talking about, it is this 2-bed in Hull, and it's not, and it is with a national provider. And if I sign this, I think it will be— this one was really quick because a provider, this provider, he knows exactly what he wants. He wants like 2 to 4 bed bungalows, uh, in North. In fact, he told me a few places that actually wants— just let me check. He just sent me a message saying right where actually he need it. So he needs 2 to 4, walk-in shower, bedroom, northeast or northwest. Those are the primary areas, uh, and in northeast what he is really looking for is Hartpole, Redcar, and Cleveland. So if any one of you have any 2 to 3 bungalows, 2 to 3 bed bungalows, has to be detached, shower, then look, this provider is taking, and the turnaround has been about 3 weeks. That is why actually I took to sign this all and took 3 weeks because this property is about to be remortgaged. And we also had a talk with the lender. So the landlord also had to talk with the lender regarding the lease, and hence it took like a few extra days to be signed off.

But yes, Dr. Devang, how many providers do you have relationships with?

I have direct relationship. So this is me directly with the provider. That is about 46. And then I have this relationship with Agents for Care Providers. So these are people who has already built relationship with quite few providers. And because— and these are people who are more likely worked as a care provider before, uh, so they are nurses or they worked as a children's home or they were a social worker, and then they could see, okay, there is a lack of properties and I know what actually, uh, I could help. So those sort of people, they actually— what actually they struggle, they struggle with getting the properties because they understand the care side of it quite well. So it's been working quite well with them. In fact, I have about 14 of those across, and when actually you— what, one of them could have about 10 to 15 providers they actually been working with. So that is what actually has really helped Care Property Hub to scale, uh, in England. Because of these agents for care providers.

Interesting, I didn't know about these agents. Interesting, so they use their own like sources, right?

And now they are loving Care Property Hub because they can log in and they can see, oh, there is a property, oh, okay, so that one would be quite good. So hence I say to the landlords to upload your property instead of sending me a WhatsApp upload your property. I know, I mean, when actually I receive a WhatsApp, I can, okay, this, this, and this possibly that, that is just your eyeballs. If it's not, yes, exactly. And if it's on the platform, any provider can have a look. And it's really important when there is this agents for, for providers, because they, one property, they, they possibly can think for 2 or 3 providers that actually might need.

Yeah, oh, it's great, and it's great to see it growing. It's been great to see. So, a question from Kabita: so do you only have to give 24-hour notice? I can't remember what context was this for, that was towards the end.

So this was for on-exempt accommodation, so the tenants, they don't have the AST contract, they have this license agreement, and they can be moved between 24 hours.

And what's the typical license? Is it 6 months? Is it a year? Is it multi-year for these guys?

No, the tenants won't have that license, Guillaume. If they misbehave, they are out.

Okay, okay.

This is for exempt accommodation. So do you know, like, the end user who is in the property, and for the providers, like, okay, if they misbehave, they are not following, or they are getting someone else's cheese from the fridge, they are literally out in next 24 hours.

And someone's asking, what's the difference between this and what Hanif does? Can you explain?

So Hanif is doing most of exempt accommodation, and the property can be taken out from you guys just like that., and it is more for Universal Credit. That is what actually Tanif's doing, and we are working with Tanif as well on that. So if anyone wants to work with Tanif, uh, I would say yes, because I am working on myself. I have few properties, uh, on this system as well. So yes, depends who you actually want to work with. If you want to work with the exempt accommodation, brilliant. If you want to have this long lease, or you want to be able to help someone having enhanced rents, then it will be a CQC. But you will need to be patient because you have social worker involved and commissioner involved, and that can take time.

Okay, Timmy Singh has been investing in supported living for more than 2 years now, and so it's good to keep informed, and thanking you. So That's great, thank you very much, Tim. Daniel is saying, with 3 to 5-year licenses, do you still receive full rental income if a room becomes vacant?

Yes, so the rent is guaranteed, and depending how you actually do the contract, you could have increased rent every year, or, you know, first 2 years you possibly don't have any increase on the rent, and on the 3rd, 4th and 5th year there is increased rent. Depends of what actually you agree with the, uh, with the provider. Usually like this one that actually I'm just doing today, we have a rent, uh, increase every year and it is linked to the CPI plus 2% and it is capped at 6%. So that is what actually the rental increase is going to be every year. So depends You know, like each contract is each contract and you have to read it. And just talking about the contracts, when actually it comes to the contracts, there is, you know, a lot of people want this FIR lease and I will, I am so sorry to disappoint you guys, but these FIR lease, they don't exist as they used to exist before because the trades price gone double or triple since COVID And, uh, you know, it's a question of affordability now. So care providers are not able to do this FIR lease. What actually they will do, they will look after the maintenance. And when actually it comes to maintenance, is like, um, uh, you know, day-to-day maintenance, like door handles or, uh, you know, tap, all that kind of stuff. If the boiler breaks, that is a landlord. Anything structure, that is a landlord. So landlord will have a structure and a boiler, and rest of like little maintenance normally will be a provider.

Okay, so it's quite a few questions in the chat. Do we want to do like quick fires on, on these? So next one is from Kabita. So what's the— what is the process and charge to work with you, get your help?

Okay, uh, please connect with me on that QR code, uh, because then you will be on the newsletter, and on the newsletter you will be able to receive, uh, a guide on how to go to the platform. What do I need to do, uh, on the platform? Register yourself and upload your property, and you can also check the demand, what sort of properties.

I'm on this, right? So What do I say? Get started?

Sign in or get started, care provider or landlord. It's very simple. Yeah. Okay. Exactly that.

Okay. And from there I get your newsletter and I get to see the demand and stuff.

Yes, you can see the demand because it keeps changing. So at least you will know what is the demand of providers.

Yeah, I'll do— I'll get in and have a look. Great, super cool. Rita is asking, do you need C3B license? I'm getting planning class.

Yes, C3. So, okay, one more tip for you guys. If you have an HMO in Article 4 and you want to give it to the provider, think about it twice, because when actually you come to renew your license for for HMO, you won't have any AST contracts with your tenants. So how are you going to renew it? Yes, so it more likely you are going to be losing them that license on the Article 4 area. So if you are thinking to do a social housing— sorry, the HMO license on the Article 4 because you wouldn't be able to renew it because you won't be able to provide that ASC contracts to the council when actually the renewal happens because your house is being used as a C3B and not as a C4. So there is a big risk of you losing that C4. So careful if you are going to be doing stuff like that.

Is that in every council, or is that, um, say that again? Is that, is that like this in every council?

Yes, yes, we have, uh, I believe I can say it because I have event, two events, uh, a month, physical and virtual. And on the virtual event, we have a planning guy, a planner, and he is actually going to talk about this on next, on this 17th of March. So if anyone is interested on that to know more about the planning, is it online? It is online, yes, it is online, and you can receive a Zoom replay if you miss the meeting.

Okay, great. Can you share the slides of this after? Can you do a post in the community?

Okay, yeah, I'll do it.

Okay, mortgage consideration for, for these different, different scenarios.

Yes, you will have to talk with your mortgage— with your broker. Just make sure that you are talking with the right broker, um, and if you have a right broker, you won't have any problem. The rates you can get is pretty similar to HMOs. It will be like 6.5% to 7% if everything is fine, uh, but yeah, the lease, the contract that actually you have, you will have to present that contract to your broker So the broker will go to the right lender. So why is that important? Because the lender will like to know what sort of tenants and tenants are going to be in that property.

Same for your insurance, right?

Same for the insurance, exactly. So the contract—

actually, these are all questions we're going to talk about. So on the 14th of March, you know, we're doing this in-person event to basically go over. So Nisha is one of the speakers. We have Daniel Hills, uh, we have Jade Chauhan doing, um, talking about rent-to-rent, back-to-back leasing, or you can do these, uh, and Nisha as well about how to work with providers and stuff like that. So if you're interested in the sector, I'm putting the link down there so you can, you can come and join, you know, because we find it—

sorry, Guillaume, I just wanted to say, so whoever buys through this for the 14th of March, comes and sees us, will have 2 virtual tickets from Care Property Hub. So just email us saying, right, that you have bought it, send me the invoice saying that you have bought it, and we will give you 2 tickets, virtual tickets for Care Property Hub. So you will be able to educate yourself more on this area because I tell you, there's so many things that you still need to know. There's so many things.

Honestly, it took me a long, long time to get my head around it. You know, we find that at Propsfuture, our job is very much to help you stay in the know and master the strategies that are working right now, not the stuff, you know, that, you know, maybe you bought a course in 2022, you know, it doesn't work anymore. And also what's actually working right now, what's actually stacking in the current market. Honestly, what we've seen the last 3 months is most of these are not your old buy-to-lets, rent-to-rent, rent-to-HMO, rent-to-ASA. You know, the numbers just don't work. And also, you really need to know this, you know, the best strategies we see work right now in the community, in the data, are not in the private rented sector, especially after the Renters Reform Act coming into May. Very much are a form of government-backed strategies. So Alicia has talked about supported living versus exempt accommodation. And the problem is most people are completely lost and confused, you know, between social housing.

Yes, exactly, exactly.

You really want to get up to date. That's why we organize this Social Impact Investing Summit on the 14th of March, the one-day event for the community. It's very much to share with you what's working right now, right? So how to make rent-to-rent work again. So deep dive into back-to-back leasing. How to make sourcing work again. So how do you package actually deals, you know, with the provider relationship like Nisha is talking about here, or the exempt accommodation system that Hanif's talked about. There's just so many ways of making it work, you know. So how do you go about asset managing, asset managing blocks of flats and get all your money out from deals? So Daniel is going to talk about that. Or to get HMO cash flow on one-bed flats, you know, like I'm doing right now. So basically, or you can replace your income in one deal. So all of these things we're we're going to talk about on that day. And these are from actual practitioners, you know, not people with, you know, huge profiles, but people who are actually walking the talk, you know. So Daniel Hill, Jay Chohan, Nisha is going to be contributing as well. And for the questions around compliance mortgages, Jamie is going to talk about the consideration for your mortgage as an investor, as well as if you are doing rent-to-rent, what do you say to the landlord, etc., right? So The Property Future events always sell out. We don't plan to do another one. So yeah, the link, just put the link in the chat, join here. And then I need to push the message a bit more that Nisha is actually offering 2 tickets to our own events as part of that. So yeah, thank you for that. Okay, so that answers a few of the questions I've seen here around consideration for mortgages. Events and ask Jamie because we work quite closely with him with all of that, you know. Okay, so difference with Hanif. So Nisha is going to do all the spectrum of all those properties. What Hanif does is one aspect of exempt accommodation you can plug into. And so this is a bit broader what Nisha does. I'm just trying to rattle through the questions really quick here, Nisha. Just want to be respectful of your time. Would ground floor flat be considered suitable for accommodation for accessibility on some of these providers? That's a question from Ron.

Yes, I've done a deal on a flat in Birmingham where a lady was in the wheelchair and we had a flat which was a ground flat, a ground floor flat, so it worked quite well for that lady.

Yeah, that's right.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah, I think that would work. Stefano, Valerie, so yes, it's again, so clarity, Hanif is just one aspect where you manage the old tenants, you unlock some rents. Nisha is talking about how you work, so it's more like one aspect of exempt accommodation. And what Nisha is talking about is putting your property on leases where you don't have to manage anything, basically it's guaranteed rent, etc. So different. Okay, so question team as well, recommend come to the, yeah, come to the event. How does the rent compare? So it depends on the providers. Yeah, okay. And then you, the provider pays the bills on these, you know, on your money.

Provider will pay all the bills, council tax. You will receive your rent, and that's the only thing that actually you will have to you will have to do a gas certificate and EICR. You are liable for that, and EPC. So you will be liable for that compliance, and you will have to do it because these care providers, they are checked on compliance. Do you know, if we think that compliance is hard for landlords, it's really hot for the care providers.

Okay, yeah, they'll probably chase you for it. I think so.

Yeah.

Tim is on the platform asking, how do I respond to demand shows on the map? So I'm not in, I'll set up an account now. How do you interact in response to the demand that shows on the map on your platform?

So on my platform, you will have a demand map where actually you are able to click and check what sort of property that provider wants. You will also be able to see if it's more than one or two or three providers that actually need the property. So click in and you will have— and you will receive the details of what sort of properties, 2-bed, 3-bed, and how much rent they are expecting— they, they are agreeing to pay, which is always negotiable. This is why Care Property Hub exists. So yeah, so if you go into— so the red is the one where actually there is quite a bit of demand. So it will tell you all the details of what actually you need.

Sorry, I got muted. Sorry, I was saying, how do I interact from here to say, hey, can I—

So this is the Yeah, so this is a demand from the providers. If you want to upload the property, it is that second tab.

And then you put it here.

Upload like 40, 50 properties, or, you know, 10, 12 properties is that bulk upload.

All right, okay, cool.

Yes, and one of the things in the Care Property Hub, we ask for the gas certificate, uh, EICR and EPC, because we want to provide compliant properties to the care provider. As well as I check my care providers, they are right care providers to work with the landlords. Same thing I want to do for the care providers, that we are providing the right compliant property to the care provider. So it works both ways. So you will need to upload the gas certificate, EICR, and EPCs, so it can be accepted.

If you've got an existing— someone's got a— actually, he's got an existing rent-to-rent with an owner. Can they switch to a different term type, no, to you guys?

So depends on the contract, what actually they have on the contract. I mean, if they're usually—

you want to back to back? You want to back You want them, the conditions to be exactly the same, so you might need to review and revise it, but I don't see why you couldn't.

Yeah, no, I couldn't see it. If there is a demand, Guillaume, it's all about demand. Because if you know there is a demand, then the product will be there. It's just like how I say it's like Easter eggs. Easter eggs only come in the Easter, you know, most of it comes out in Easter. Why? Because there is a big demand.

Yeah. There's a lot of questions on like building insurance, mortgages. So this is why we got the speakers at the event on the 14th to cover all these questions. And you will have a stand, you can ask them all of that because it's quite, it's quite a lot of details you could go into this. So I'll leave this for your time when, your time when we are together all day. Cool. And on rates, questions on rates, Nisha, I guess it depends on the providers, depends on, it's always different, right?

It depends. You will always receive a market rent, right? But it will be above the market rate. So if it's exempt accommodation, it will be LHA plus 10 to 20%. That is what actually your rent would be. This is on exempt accommodation with the providers. If it's with the CQC, it depends on the property, how much modification has to be done, you know. So it varies when actually it comes to CQC, it varies. So now, do you know this, uh, contract that actually I told you, uh, that one we are going to be doing for £1,300 for 2-bed in Hull? It's a 2-bed bungalow, and no way the market rent for that is possibly £850, £900 where actually it is. But because it is something that it is in the right location, it has the parking, right parking, it has the right entrance, €1,300. So it depends on what actually it is.

Yeah, awesome. Well, Nisha, thank you so much. Have you got any sort of— we went a bit over time— have you got any closing sentiments for us today?

Yes, I would love you guys to turn up into my meeting as well on the 3rd of March, where actually I'm going to have an if. So if you want to see and even talk with him directly. You can gather around in Birmingham, right, uh, in Edgbaston Golf Club. But I would really love to see you guys on the 14th. And don't forget, I am going to put this on the property filter in the, in the community, that you will have 2 tickets for a virtual meeting. So just send me that you have bought it, and 2 virtual tickets going to be there.

I appreciate it. Yeah, we might follow up with people who already— we'll talk about it at the event as well. Thank you so much. Nisha, I really appreciate it. So for everyone else, thank you for tuning in and joining till the end. So yeah, it's a really, really hot topic and we went into investing a whole day of content with great speakers for you on the 14th. So if you're not already on it, what are you doing? These are the strategies working right now. You don't want to miss the boat and be left behind with 2022, 2024, 2026, 2025 strategies that just don't work anymore. So look forward to seeing you in person. And in the meantime, thanks so much, Nisha. Speak soon. Bye-bye.

Thank you. Bye. Bye-bye.