🔍 Pitch Perfect: What the Property Elevator Angels Really Look For In A Deal

Welcome everyone, welcome to today's Deal Finder Corner. So this is your weekly property talk show brought to you by PropertyFilter, hosted by myself, Guillaume Black, your favorite Frenchman, the CEO and co-founder at PropertyFilter. As you know, it's the UK's highest-rated platform to find deals, and we're on a mission to empower our property investor members to find, you know, thousands of deals, thousands of deals each and every year thanks to the PropertyFilter Blueprint. And the purpose really with this Deal Finder Corner is to give you more and the best of the available resources by inviting expert guests who will share with you the latest, most current strategies, tactics, and secrets about what actually works right now in terms of finding and making deals and the reality of systemizing and running a high-performance business in property. So it really is my pleasure today to introduce you to very, very special guests, you know. So 3 or 4, uh, of the highest-profile angel investors you will find here, so who are sitting on the Property Elevator Show. And so you have— I'll start, you know, by seniority, you know, with a John Howard, you know, with his No Introduction, brings more than 40 years of experience with more than 4,500 transactions. He's operating at these scales across large-scale development projects everywhere across the country. We've got Hayley Andrews, you know, who's, uh, who is, uh, who's been with us here before, and as well as Property Filter events. He's an award-winning investor, a television personality. She's got a portfolio spanning from hotels, schools, museums, and beyond. You know, like, there is no strategy, you know, she and John has not, has not touched or done. She's the founder of the UK's fastest-growing female property community, so Hard Hats to Heels. I really recommend, you know, if you want to meet other power women, you know, in your area, you know, look this up. And we've got Liv Cooke, you know, who's built an 8-figure net worth from, you know, by the age of 24, from starting with zero capital and delivering well over £75 million worth of properties with a mixture of sourcing and high-yielding HMO development whilst housing more than 1,000 vulnerable, uh, individual tenants. I've got, of course, Rachel, the UK's title split queen, who also needs no introduction. She's helping investors unlock 25-30% capital uplift as well as increasing, you know, cash flow by 60% on all these, uh, all these deals through proven strategies at titlesplit.com. I do recommend you look into it if that's something you want to get into. It's a very hot topic and strategy these days. And together they bring decades, you know, of real-world experience, serious results, zero fluff. You know, they'll tell you how it is. We'll have a good laugh. You know, they'll be sharing exactly what it takes to raise capital with them, or, you know, on the show, or more broadly for you when you want to entertain a pool of private investors you want to work with, or you— or to find the right deals for them so that you become investible and irresistibly investible. and scale your property business, you know, to the, to the sort of next level. So today we can expect to talk about how to raise money from investors. You'll hear straight from the angels, uh, who are actively looking to deploy their capital on the right deals right now and exactly what they want, what they need, you know, from, from you or people pitch to them, or to pitch to angel investors on the show or, you know, individually to you and your network. And it's not about the deal, necessarily about But it can be also about how you present yourself, how you build credibility, how you make investors feel confident and backing you specifically, right? So how do you get people to know, like, and trust you to a point where they give you 6 figures, you know, on the back of a few WhatsApp messages is where we want to go. And then how do you never run out of capital? So learn how to leverage other people's money, which is a really big idea here. And what deals go for and the ones that are make you irresistible in terms of working with our investors. And of course, you know, we'll have a bit of a banter and insights, you know, from 4 investors who've done it at a scale, you know, we can all look up to. Uh, you know, obviously, uh, they have done the intro. So very much looking forward to hearing more about the, the panel today. So I'm going to be starting with, um, with basically some quick fires I'm going to, uh, to run around, uh, about the mindset of raising finance, the positioning, how you position yourself, How do you find investors? How do you actually pitch? How do you structure the deal? And then ultimately, you know, position yourself so you never run out of capital. And then later in the second part, I want to go a bit deeper with every one of the panelists here about something that's specific to them and ask them, you know, tell, you know, to tell us what it is that they see is the ideal deal and the ideal investor profile they want to work with. And then please put every question directly to a specific a member of the panel today in the chat, and towards the end I'll make sure to, uh, to bring them up. So looking forward to this. So first thing around mindset, so I want to go through a few quickfire questions. So Hayley, you know, a lot of our members will have maybe been in a position where they come across lots of deals on PropFilter, but they've never really asked anyone for money before. So what do you say is, uh, what would you say or advise to someone who is uncomfortable or even embarrassed about the idea of asking other people's money or asking to work with other investors to back them?

So ultimately, you're not asking for— well, you are asking for money, but you're offering an opportunity, and that's really how you need to pitch it. So it needs to come with confidence. If you haven't asked for money before or pitched for private investment, I would say don't fake it before you make it. Be honest about where you're at in your journey. Be clear about what you want from the angel investor as well. Where are the risks? Have you managed those risks? Can you execute? But ultimately, I would say what puts most people off is because they think they are asking for money, but what you are actually doing is you're offering an opportunity. Money isn't the only currency, so what do you bring to the table? Is it your time? You're there, you're hustling. Been on the ground, you know, are you— your knowledge of the local area, are you well connected, what's your network look like, have you got trades, people that you've worked with for many years, and what's driving you? Are you up at 6 AM checking out Property Filter, finding the next deal? So really just showing up as your best self today, I would say, being honest about where you are, what you need from us, what the deal looks like, identifying those risks risks within the deal and multiple exits. That's what we want to see as investors. So I think one of the biggest red flags I see is some people will try and overinflate where they are, and I think that's because they want to appear to be, you know, further down the line than where they actually are. But I always say, and I've said this on the show many times, trust is the glue of life. But it's also like your virginity. You only lose it one time. Once it's gone, it's gone. And if you ever— you can write that one down, John.

So, John, tell me about your virginity. So, John, you would have seen— thank you so much, Hayley. That was really insightful. So, John, you would have seen thousands of people pitch deals over your 40 years of doing this. So what separates the ones who actually raise the money again and again repeatedly and the ones who don't and never make it? And then can you talk through, like, the way they present themselves as well as the deal itself, you know, and what's the sort of balance between the two?

Yeah, well, first of all, I think you invest in the person as much as the deal. So if someone comes, if you meet someone and they're smiling and they're likable, that goes an awful long way. You know, even if someone's got a fantastic deal, if they appear to be tricky and difficult to work with, then are you going to want to work with them? Probably not. Likability is very important. The other thing that's super important is to under-promise and over-deliver. You know, on the show we get a lot of people come on and you listen to their pitch and a lot of the pitches are very, very good. A lot of the paperwork these days that embarrasses me because their paperwork's better than any of mine I do. They've obviously been on Property Filter quite a lot and all the rest of it. You've got all the stats. And everything, and then they let themselves down by saying, well, of course, you know, I'm going to buy it and do it up and sell it within 6 months. Well, guess what? That isn't going to happen, or if it is, it's highly unlikely. So, you know, underestimate, underpromise, definitely underpromise and overdeliver. That's so important. The figures need to be sensible, the build costs need to be sensible, And the one question every investor wants to know, everyone, I, every, you know, every time I put money into a deal, I want to know how quickly am I going to get my money back and how am I going to get my money back? They're the two.

It's not just the return on investment, it's the return of the investment, right?

Absolutely. Because at the end of the day, if the money is going to be out for 3 years, not 1 year, because it's all gone pear-shaped, and I don't mind stepping in and helping, of course, because it's to my advantage to do so, but You know, if it's going to be out a lot longer, then my return probably is going to be pretty shabby. Pretty shabby. So sometimes the ones that look the most profitable deals aren't the ones to do because they take too long to do.

Interesting. Yeah, it's all quickly can you get in and out of them.

Yeah.

And Rachel, so on positioning yourself, you know, if someone came to you tomorrow and, you know, they've got a deal but very, you know, little experience, you know, what would you need to show What would they need to show you for you to make the decision or to take them seriously or refer them to someone who can basically invest in them?

So I'm gonna sort of reiterate some of the things that both John and Hayley have said, that first of all, I want to know that this person comes along as trustworthy and that I believe what they're saying in terms of their numbers. Because one of the things that I do, my sort of background is sales director, so that's where I've come from. And as a sales director, your numbers are always, you know, back in my corporate days, the numbers were already always really important. Um, for property investors, knowing your numbers, not inflating the numbers, um, the credibility of the person, how they come across, how they've prepared for it. Because if they haven't prepared to show you, if they, if they're not prepared to put in the preparation and time into understanding it themselves, um, then that's something that would be a red flag to me. Um, so I'm wanting them to come along really well prepared to show me exactly how the numbers work. And the other thing that, that nobody has mentioned yet, but I know we're all quite passionate about it because we mention it quite a lot in the show, is having a little bit of skin in the game. Uh, in other words, you know, it's very easy to come along and ask somebody for their money as an investment, and you're not taking any of the risk yourself. We want to see as investors that there's a little bit of skin in the game. And I don't mean a lot of money, it doesn't have to be a lot of money, but it's something to show that you're prepared to invest in this deal too. And, you know, and also I'm going to say to people, this is really important, if I'm going to invest in you and your deal, I'm going to do my due diligence on you. So if you know that I'm going to find things out that are going to scare me in terms of investing in you, and one of the things I do in my community is teach people to even get each other's credit reports and make sure that they are prepared to go into business together, because that's what you do when you invest in somebody's deal. You're saying you believe what they're saying, and you're saying that you believe that they're going to look after your money like you were going to look after your money. So I think for people looking to get private investment, those are things that they really need to think about.

Thank you. And, you know, with people who are new to this, you know, I find, I find people take— put an maybe too much importance on how beautiful the deal pack looks like, you know. So what do you say is how much is the glossy brochure important compared to, you know, like the content and the form, you know. So how much, you know, people should worry about this and, you know, their business cards and their website in a sort of similar way, you know. Can you comment on how much of a good deal pack should be and is that important for someone starting out?

Do you want me to answer that or somebody else?

Yeah, yeah, we should do it for you.

All right, okay. Uh, so the answer to that is I'm not going to be impressed by your glossy pack. I'm going to be impressed by your due diligence and how the deal stacks, right? And, you know, using that example, Guillaume, you've got, you know, PropertyFilter gives them information and stats on a property. Those people, the people need to understand what that means and be able to talk through the deal confidently and understand the— and something Hayley said earlier, the risks in the deal, because there is no such thing as a property deal without risk. So if you haven't considered the risk, those are the things we want to see. So actually, I'd go— actually, the pack needs to be less, not more, but very focused on, on the numbers, what the return on investment is going to be, how much skin you've got in the game, um, how, how long it is until I'm going to get my money out of that deal, and real numbers, because What I'll tell you now, and this I'm speaking for my colleagues here as well, we will all go and do the due diligence ourselves. And this is a thing investors need to know how to do their own due diligence. And you as a, you as a, um, you as somebody who's asking for property, for angel investment, and I don't think— I know certainly many of us, um, uh, who did Property Elevator and many of us who were experienced in property have worked with private investor money either now or in the past, and we we present that credibility, so we expect other people to present that to us. It doesn't have to be a fancy glossy pack that's 20 pages. We haven't got time to read it. We want the stats and we want the numbers and we want it in front of us in 2 or 3 pages if at all possible. That's speaking for myself anyway.

Yeah, perfect. Um, thank you. Uh, on finding investors, John, so where, you know, someone who's never really done this before, where should someone who's never raised private finance before, actually start looking for investors? So should they go at property networking events? Should they, you know, like post on social media? Should they look on the contacts, you know, phone numbers they've got on their phones, you know, colleagues and family members and things like that? You know, where do— where should people start in the first place and what works?

Well, what I would say is family is always the best place to go, but if you're going to go to family, always make sure you treat them as any other investor and you give them the, the correct and the right amount of interest or share of the deal as you would anyone else. Because then if you do that, they'll come back for more deals with you, you know, because you, you know, they're going to earn money out of you and it's going to work both ways. Whereas if, if they do it as a favour, they'll probably do it once and that'll be it. So that's the first thing. Family, if you're fortunate enough to be able to do that, that's always the best way in my view to start with. I would keep local to start with if I could as well, because I think you've got more con— if you, I mean, obviously if you live in Mayfair, that's a problem probably, but You know, if you can start locally because you've got more, you've got more contacts, you know the areas better. And also you've got to make the investor comfortable. So the investor, ask the investor what their view is of investing further afield, because some of them may go, no, I want to do it within a certain town or whatever, so I can go and look at it and keep an eye on it. Some might not be bothered. So I think that's really important. So reading and understanding the investor and what motivates them is so important because all the time you're trying to de-risk the deal for them and yourself. It's really important to de-risk. And, you know, they're the sort of words that investor wants to hear. How are you going to de-risk the deal before we start? What are the, you know, what are the challenges? What are the risks involved? There'll be some. but we want to stack them all in our favour. And I think that's really important. And to know how the person has made their money that you're going to borrow off, again, is very important because if they're, you know, if it's a solicitor or someone like an accountant, you know they're likely to be very cautious. You know, if they're an entrepreneur, they might take more of a view, they might want to do different things. And the other thing is ask them what they want to invest into, what makes them comfortable. That's very important.

Yeah, I find, you know, like people want to, you want to get money from people who know, like, and trust you. So go and find them where they are, right? So most of them will already be on your phone. And then in property, I find for raising finance as well as when we raise money for Propertyfilter and in the tech world, they call it the fool's friend and family round, you know. So it's the, you know, you go and get your money where it's easy to get to start with. So I thought I'd share that, right? Thank you, John. That was really cool.

Hayley, I want to come to you about the pitch, you know.

So If you were to walk us through a good pitch, you know, what would that look like? You know, if someone, one of our members, let's say, find a good deal on PropsFilter today and needed to present it to an investor or present it to you on the show, so what should they include, in what order, and how to pitch it properly basically to you?

Well, I can do one better than answer that question. As part of the show, we do actually send out what a pitch needs to include, and so I'd be happy to share that with the community, and they can see exactly what needs to be in a pitch deck. But in actually pitching, I would say for me— we're all different, we all look for different things— but for me, it's really about making the money in the purchase. I want to see that they've negotiated the price down. For me, that's where the real money is, and everything else is execution. But overall, it comes down to 3 things. That will be the deal quality, the structure, and the credibility. behind the person. So strong margins, clear exits, and that risk managed and communicated to me before I ask. That's very much what I look for. I want to see the due diligence. I like to see the glossy pack. I am a data freak, so anything like that, I will read all of it quite happily several times over. And although I'll still do my own due diligence, I do like to to see that you've done that work and that you understand the market that we're stepping into, what's missing, where the supply is, what the current demand is, where the risks are. So I like to see all of that, but I know that Jon doesn't like that so much. Do you, Jon? No, I'm not a— He takes the mick out of me all the time because I am a data freak. But I do like to see that you've done the work on the ground, you understand the market you're stepping into, you know, you've priced in that risk, you know when the deal works, and more importantly for me, at what point it doesn't work. You know, if the market moves 5 or 10%, at what point are we breaking even? At what point does the deal not work? I want to see that as well. And I want to see that you've thought about that. So for me, it's all about a clear— well, capital goes where confidence is, doesn't it? So if you are confident in what you're pitching, you've done your research, you know the deal inside out, you've done the numbers, when it works, but also highlighted at what point it doesn't, you've got multiple exit strategies, and you stand there with a clear view of the market that you're stepping into, I will have confidence in you. And, you know, and at that point, then that's when I really start listening.

Awesome, thank you. I'm going to ask Rachel about the opposite question, really. So what would you say is the fastest way for someone to kill a pitch, you know, come to come to you with a deal and really like screws it up, you know. So what mistakes do you see people make that instantly make you switch off?

Yeah, I've got 2 things to say there, and I'm really clear on this, and it's like I'm a broken record, but it's something I say to my clients a lot. Is, uh, first one is the numbers don't work and you don't know the numbers. So, so if you come along and it is clear that you're trying to sell it as though it does work, but you don't really understand the numbers and the detail behind what you're presenting, that would be one way to kill a pitch. And the other one, and this is a really difficult one because it's more based on feeling, if you know you're stood at the front of that person and everything you're saying, you know your numbers, you've prepared well, it doesn't mean you have to know the answer to every question, but you know your numbers, you've prepared well, you've prepared a good pack, and you are confident in what you are saying, and you are telling the truth. Right, then I'm going to invest with you. If you are stood in front of me and I think you are exaggerating and perhaps making it look nicer than it is or better than it is, I'm not going to invest in you, right? So for me, it's— that would kill the pitch. And if anybody comes into Property Elevator or even comes in to talk to us for investment, we would be saying— I would be saying, uh, and my husband as well because he's alongside of me— we'd be saying no if that person did not come across as real, knowing what they were doing, but being trustworthy. That's that. And some of that is about feeling as well that I'm gonna get for that person. Um, the other thing— I've got one other thing I want to say because I don't know whether anyone else is going to bring it up, and I think it's really interesting to say to your, uh, to your listeners here today is that people are sometimes not shown how to do this properly, and they think they can borrow money from anybody. And they are going out on social media saying— because I might check social media to see if you're out there asking for investment money, just so you know, right? I might check that, and you shouldn't be. Or if you are You should be doing it in a very subtle way, but you shouldn't be. And you should understand that you can only actually borrow money from what are called high net worth or sophisticated, um, uh, individuals. And, and there's plenty of stuff around that on the FCA website, and you can go and look at that under COBS, and you can read up exactly what you need to do to, to ask for investment. Unfortunately, people are not taught this, and they go and ask Grandma and Granddad and everybody else's grandma and granddad. It's one of my pet hates because you need to understand that, you know, actually when you're pitching on Property Elevator, you know the people at the front of the room are high net worth, but you would still do that due diligence as part of your process. So I wanted to mention that so that people would understand that they need to go and research that and make sure they understand it.

Yeah, that's amazing. Thank you. And I'm going to stay with you with something we kind of covered on, but I see the opinion diverge a little bit around What do you actually want to see on paper? So you said about the 3, 4 pages and you've got Hades like, I want all the details. And Joey's like, I don't have time for this shit. I want to know I can trust you, see the numbers work. So I see you as maybe the middle ground here. So do you want to comment on this overall deal packaging proposal? What do you actually want to see on paper? What documents, the numbers that are important, the information you need to see before you even consider the conversation?

So what I want to see is, first of all, I want— I do want to see some pictures because I want to be able to visualise the deal, and everybody needs to see that. So whether that's an addendum at the back with a picture on the front of the pack, I don't mind. So that can go on top of the 4 pages, but some photographs to show me what the deal actually is, um, because a lot of people need to make decisions based on that. Um, the other thing that I want to see is clear number calculations, clear time frames for how long it's going to take me to get my money out of the deal, and where you've got your— I want to see links to comparable properties. So, so I can see local comparable sales that if you're saying that— I mean, in my world, obviously I'm the title split lady. We'd be looking at a deal, uh, we might be buying it on the market, so we might be using Property Filter, we might be getting some stats off Property Filter. But what I want to see is that you've got really good comparable data, you give me links to that comparable data so I can click on it and go and have a look myself and see whether that's reasonable. And I want to see that you're not inflating the GDVs. Okay, so they're the things that are in the pack. Um, I want to see a little bit about your experience in the pack. So who are you? What have you done? If you've done nothing yet, be honest. You know, that's what I'm going to say— act with integrity, act with honesty. This is my first deal. This is my first deal. And you tell the truth, it's your first deal. So no fluff. Um, That's it for me. And because the thing is, we're busy people, and if somebody sends you a pack with 30 pages in it, you haven't got time to read it. I want to see a nice executive summary at the front that lays out what this pack is going to tell me. Executive summary, this is what we're going to tell you, tell me, and then this is the investment we need. That's it, really.

Awesome. Yeah, thank you. I'm gonna ask the same question to John, and we'll go to Hayley.

Goodness me, that's enough, isn't it? Crikey, 2 pages for me, 4 pages for Rachel and 38 pages for Hayley. So I think I'll win the bidding. But, um, so 2 things. One, we can, we can spot blaggers, and I'm being rude— I'm being polite there. We can spot blaggers a mile off, so don't come in and try and blag us because we can see it a mile off on Property Elevator. And these ladies are sharper than the men, I can show you on the show, so don't Don't think, you know, you're going to blag someone because you're not. That's the first thing. The second thing is the biggest turn-off of all is when someone says, well, of course I need £2,000 a month out of it, you know, while we're doing the development. If anyone says they want money out of a deal before we've made any money, I go, thank you very much, it's not for me. You might find some mug out there, but it isn't going to be this mug. So I think they're the two things that are, um, You know, very, very important. And of course, I want to see a development appraisal. That's what I want to see—a simple development appraisal, which is a page or two showing the costs, the the the interest payments, and everything else on there, and potentially the net profit, and over how long. Once I've got that, then I can go away and do my own due diligence and come up with the decision, my decision. And and that's and hopefully it's the same decision, or the same information, and the same figures that you've all. that you've brought to me. I agree with Rachel and Hayley, you know, if it's your first deal— and by the way, you can pick talented people, you know, you can see that it might be their first deal but they've just got it, they've got it. There's some people who have naturally got that ability, there's others who perhaps find it more difficult to find deals for whatever reason, but there's something for everybody in property. There's lots and lots of ways of making money. out of property. You just have to find a way that suits you and suits your character and your personality and also your risk appetite. That's really important too.

Okay, that's awesome. Thanks so much, John. Hayley, same question for you. Page 1 to 38, so what's on the table of contents?

I think I've already answered this question, haven't I? Yeah, really everything that everyone else says, but as I said, strong margins, clear exits, multiple exits, where the risk is, what skin you've got in the game as well. I want to see alignment. I want to make sure that if I win, you win. If I lose, you still feel it. So security is first. Clarity, clear and evidence-backed. Data doesn't lie.

Yeah.

So I will read all 38 pages. And Guillaume, I've just sent you actually the the pitch deck that we request as part of the show.

Okay, I'll find it and I'll share it in the chat in a moment. Thank you, thanks, thanks, thank you all. So it's quite interesting, obviously, like there's different perspectives and things like that, and I think the show's evolved into something really interesting because I think since the last season you got a parity of, you know, men and women on the panel, you know, since this one season. So do you guys want to jump in, you know, like any, any one of you at any order, right? How do you think this has impacted the show? Maybe you, John, who's been around for since the beginning, or do you see this as in fact the show?

Yeah, thank you. I've got to be really careful what I say, haven't I?

Yeah, you do.

I think it's really refreshing, and obviously Rachel and Liv were 2 new Angels this year, and I think both of them were absolutely outstanding. And the show comes out, I think it's coming out on Amazon Prime, Series 9, in September. And I think everybody who watches the show would agree that it, you know, it gives it another angle. It freshens the show up as well. And their contribution is outstanding, as Hades is every time.

So, John, I get to be less careful than you have to be, right? So I'm going to ask her in a different way, in a bit more cheeky French way, right? So do you find that, you know, I've got 2 questions here. So So do you find that this makes the, you know, more drama and better television, you know, having, you know, like more, you know, more of disparity compared to, you know, like the old boys club maybe that previous seasons could have been, you know?

The old boys club. The old boys club. Yeah.

Am I classed as one of the old boys then?

Yeah. Thank you. That's very nice. Yeah. Well, what I would say is that there was more drama in this series than ever before. So you, you can make your own mind up on that one. There's more drama. There's one bit that I think actually has been out on— it's been out, I think, on Insta, and people can see it, where, um, there's a very interesting disagreement between Rachel, Hayley, and Liv.

And Scott. And Scott.

Oh, Scott got involved.

Well, he always has to get involved. I wasn't disagreeing.

We have to give Scott a shout because, of course, without, without Roma Finance, there wouldn't be a show. Because you know they they sponsor the show, which is great. And Scott's a very great a great guy and a great contributor to the show. But I think I think Scott was sort of trying to play referee, which was good luck with that one, Scott. For once in my life, I kept my mouth shut. I just let it happen.

I can't believe that happened, John.

In my defense, Gilliam, I was also just moderating. Really?

Everyone was directing everyone else.

Hayley, I didn't see a lot of moderating, to be honest with you. I really didn't.

Well, I was sat between the two ladies, so—

Yeah, you were.

That's true, you were sat down. The other two were standing up giving it one. But yeah, okay, all three of you were at it, to be honest with you. But there we go.

If you want a bit of action, invite some powerful women on.

Without question. I tell you what, it scared— it scared me. It scared me. Yeah.

All right, so let's settle this once and for all then, you know, like, so with disparity now, so who's the biggest queen on the show, right? So I want to know.

I, I couldn't possibly comment.

And don't, don't tell me it's John, right? Or Scott, right?

It's definitely John.

I, I would say Ranjan, although he was quite reserved and quiet this time. Maybe it's because it was a much more balanced panel. He was scared of the other ladies, I think.

Oh yeah, I couldn't, I couldn't sit in between you guys there.

It's too, too much for me, right? Thanks a lot for that.

On a positive note, Guillaume, you know, it was great to have 50/50 representation on the show. It did bring a completely different dynamic. Each of the Angels, so Rachel and Liv joining the show, you know, brought a different area of expertise, which was, you know, fabulous for the show and for those that were pitching. And it— there was a lot more drama, but it's going to make great TV. And I do think that Series 9 is going to be one of the best series yet.

Yeah, awesome. So I want to go now into more like signature deep dives with every one of you. So I want to ask you a specific question and then as a follow-on to your answer, if you want to tell me about your ideal deal and the ideal investor profile you want to work with. So we'll do ladies first. So Hayley, you're known for taking on complex, unconventional projects, listed buildings, regeneration, community-led development. You know, you want to tell us more about where an investor backed you on some of these, uh, where, you know, in a, you know, in a place where most people will have walked away from, from the deal because they don't understand it or didn't work here? And what made, what made them say yes? And what can our members learn from how you presented it at the time, uh, from you being on the, you know, like pitching side? You know, if that makes sense.

So I'm going to be really boring here. When I started taking on really complex projects such as museums with covenants on there, pay and display car parks, listed buildings, and all things like that, I was already established with a track record. I was utilising my own capital as well as the National Lottery Heritage Fund and Heritage England as well, alongside a few other grants, but I wasn't using angel investor finance. I used angel investor finance when I first started out. So the very first HMO that I did, which was a 5-bed HMO in Dudley, let out to blue-collar workers, I purchased it for £140,000. I spent about £40,000 on it and it's worth now about £320,000. But, you know, I did use angel investor finance for that. I used it for the deposit. It was a family member and they gave me £40,000. I offered them a 10% return. But I offered it, you know, with proper documentation in place, personal guarantee, you know, I practice what I preach. I'd already got a buy-to-let portfolio of standard residential buy-to-lets. It was just my first HMO. So it's unfair for me to answer that question. So it's probably better for me to talk about what, you know, why people would invest in the deals that I'm doing. Confidence comes with knowing. So, you know, I do have a good track record. I've delivered these projects projects, um, you know, many, many times. And the reason the, the council work with me closely— regeneration, heritage— um, is because I, I give my time. I sit on the Town Fund. I'm very active locally. I do work with regeneration, and I, I sit on several boards, and I'm a trustee of 3 historical preservation trusts. So it's come from relationships that I've built over the years and leveraging those relationships by initially giving my time to learn from these experts within these fields. I'm one of those types of people that's like a dog with a bone. If I try something new, I will become an expert at it. That's just how I am. I have to know everything, and again, as I Confidence comes with knowing. You only need to get that one over the line, which is why it's good to start with friends and family to get to start off with, or people, you know, work colleagues, people within your community that you know, like, and trust, and they know, like, and trust you. Always get that contract in place, always make sure you're clear, always make sure you have multiple exits. Don't over-leverage. Playing this game where you are getting commercial valuations at the highest loan-to-value is dangerous in any market, but especially in today's market. So making sure that you're showing where the risk is and you're clear. All I've ever done to raise angel investor finance, and albeit many years ago, I don't really use angel investor finance anymore. I've made enough capital to use my own and private funds. Is I'm clear, I show a track record, I'm honest about the deal, I show where the risk is, I will work harder than anybody else, and I'll make sure that that money is protected as if it's my own, and I've got security behind me. So their deal is protected. Ultimately, as investors, that's all we want to see. We want to make sure that you're treating our money as if it's your own. money the same as it, you know, you would be treating your own, and you will work hard to deliver that project. Deals don't lie or don't fail, people do. So, it's more about that execution, you know, what do you bring to the table, showing that you will show up on site, you make sure the project's running on time, on budget, and you'll stay behind making sure that that project will be delivered is, you know, it's that commitment, it's that drive to succeed and to deliver. That's the most important thing.

Hayley, I've got a follow-up question your Hard at Two Heels prompted me to ask you. So what about, you know, raising finance as a woman? You know, is there something you've learned from all the women you work with yourself and, you know, your Hard at Two Heels network? Anything there, you know, on the topic of raising angel finance and private investment funds? Anything you want to comment on specifically for women? Because I think in the Property Filter community, we're quite— I don't know if it's the French accent or what, but we have quite a good parity of audience as well. So I think I can make that comment.

Yeah, so I think I'm probably going to get shot for saying this, but I think women are better at raising finance than men.

Yeah, I agree.

And I think it comes down to that nurturing behavior, being more, you know, appearing more trustworthy and capable to deliver. And I say that with the greatest respect. It's not that they're pitching differently to men. It's just people will trust women more, I feel, from a success perspective and the community that I work with. And I work with male and female. 'Cause I have Your Freedom Empire as well, which is a business and property training organization. So I work with both men and women, and I do find, especially when you get men and women come through as a couple, the female is always more successful in raising private finance. And I think it just comes to being genuine, honest about where they are. And I think women are— I don't— I'm going to get— I'm definitely going to get shot, but I think there's less ego.

No, absolutely.

There's less ego involved, I think, when a woman is pitching. I agree with that. They will say risk, they will talk about the risks more. They're not over, you know, they don't overcomplicate things. They break things down methodically. And, you know, and I think as long as you do that and you're honest, you can't go far wrong. I mean, what I do find is that You know, people will forgive you if you're honest and something's gone wrong, but people won't forgive you if you lie about something or inflate something and something goes wrong. So you can never go far wrong if you're telling the truth about where you are, what you're going to do, where the risk is. You show up, you know, each and every day. You do that before you ask for money as well. well. Lots of people would just message me on Instagram and things like that, and I'm not going to invest in your deal. That might be successful for other individuals that maybe have £5,000 or £10,000 that they want to invest with a developer that's maybe taking £5,000 or £10,000 from 20-odd people. to get the deal done. That's not how I invest. You know, I want to invest with you. It's more of a joint venture. I want to make sure that you know what you're doing, but I want to see you show up first as well. I want to see, you know, that, as I said, there's more than one currency. Money is just one currency. You know, are you going to be hustling on the ground? Do you have a solid team? Are you going to put the time in, roll your sleeves up, and be there to make sure that this deal is executed properly, on time, on budget. So it's a win-win situation. If I make money, you make money. So I don't know whether that answers your question.

Yes, that's brilliant.

Be real. I mean, I did write an article actually in the Bluebricks magazine, and it's It's called Fake It Before You Make It, and basically not to do that. And in there it does actually say identifying what value you bring to the table, being honest about that, being honest about your track record, you know, and having confidence in the deal that you are doing. But it's a really good article. It breaks down absolutely everything about how to pitch for a deal, very methodically, very female approach. John's going to say something different now, but yeah, I do my own thing.

Before I move on to John, Hayley, do you want to tell us very quickly, and then thank you for all of that. I mean, that's great. And what's the ideal deal or ideal investor profile you want to work with or invest in?

I want to work with someone that's got— ideally, I want to work with someone that's got a couple of deals, under their belt. They've got some skin in the game. It's, you know, it doesn't have to be complicated to be a good deal. So the first one, they've kept it simple stupid. There's a clear exit and multiple exits as well. And they've really thought through those exits. If this doesn't work, this is what we will do. This is how it impacts the bottom line. And there is security there for for the first one as well.

It's more, you're more after the structure of the deal than the type of deal itself, which I find quite interesting.

Well, yeah, because, you know, I always say, people always say to me, what strategy are you focusing on? And ultimately, I think all of the above. You know, as long as we can make money, we've managed the risks, there's security there, and we've got a clear exit, then I would always rather do a deal like that where we're in and out, within 12 months, 2 years max, and then we decide if we want to work together moving forward.

Awesome, thanks so much. Moving to John. So 4,500 ongoing transactions, you've operated at the scale that I don't know anyone does in this space. So someone will be watching this today and thinking, how do I go from doing 1 or 2 deals a year to building a real, like, a proper pipeline of, like, dozens and dozens of deals? So What do you see like be a shift someone needs to make, maybe one you had to make back in the days, uh, to, uh, to think about, you know, their— how they grow their capital, uh, on how they manage their deal flow?

Well, what I would say is, is, you know, I've got a reputation for doing difficult deals, to get, get deals done, um, to deliver, uh, difficult projects. Um, and to be honest with you, we had someone come on Property Elevator live I think a couple of years ago, Hayley might remember, and he stood up there in front of 200-300 people and he said, I want to do complicated deals. And I said, well, I do complicated deals, but I'd like to do simple deals. The reason I do complicated deals is because that's what I tend to get offered more and more, you know, and I want to make the bigger margins. But of course, with bigger margins comes risk. So at the moment, for me, I want— I'd I've got 10 planning— well, I've just got 2 through. I've got 8 more planning applications on the go throughout the country at the moment. A lot of construction involved in those, which I'm really trying to— I'm trying to get rid of a lot of construction I'm doing because I think going forward I've had enough. I've not had enough of construction, but, you know, construction's where the risks are really. And for me, the ideal deal for me, if someone comes up and says, John, I've got a block here. I can buy a block of 10 flats here at 35% discount to open market value. I'll go, great, we buy them. We get the tenants out as we go. We refurbish if we have to. We sell them off individually, bang them out individually. That's what we used to do years and years ago. And actually, that strategy is coming back around again because now a lot of these blocks are being valued by the banks at 10% yield. And I'm not interested in the rental yield. What I'm interested in is the vacant possession value of those flats. So that's the safer the better. I know it might sound crazy to say that, but for me, the safer the better. And as for deal flow, you just build up as you go along. You know, I wouldn't over. The other thing I would say, by the way, if you've got if you've got someone to come in, it comes into the elevator show and says, "Well, I've got six deals on the go. Here's another one." I'm thinking, well, they've got a lot on the go already. Can they cope with another one? Have they got the organization to cope with another one? And are we getting the worst of the deals? Because are they doing their best deals themselves and leaving coming? So, well, if I get someone to fund this one, I'll do it. But if not, I'm not going to do it. That's the wrong attitude. And that's what we don't like.

Brilliant. Thank you, John. Rachel, so you are the title split queen. And so these are— this is one of the few strategies that you can really unlock serious upside in the current market, and you can do this with a lot of certainty at the point of purchase. So can you walk us through one or some examples of types of split deals where someone pitched to you with these and what the number looked like and what is it that— how they presented it and what is that make you, you know, wanting to get involved?

So yes, what I can say, I mean, there's lots of deals I could walk you through. talk to you about one particular deal with one particular client. Um, what I would say is a lot of the time these deals are quite complex because there are a lot of problems in the properties. Um, and so you can find— and, and we're going to see a lot more of these blocks coming to market, uh, because a lot of distressed landlords are out there, and there are hundreds of thousands of distressed blocks out there. And I'm going to say, and a typical example would be the services haven't been split, or the services have been split incorrectly, or a property isn't, isn't able to be split into individual saleable units because it didn't have planning permission. There's lots and lots and lots and lots of opportunity for this out there. Now, what I'm going to give you an example of one customer block, and this is a big deal, but it doesn't matter whether it's a big deal or a small deal, the processes and the systems and everything are just the same. So, uh, I recently did a small church, right, and got all my money out by creating 2 bungalows out of a small church. It was freehold title split, 2 freeholds, easy, right? Um, this, um, and it was a commercial to residential conversion, obviously, because the church is commercial and now we've converted it into 2 bungalows which are residential, C3, etc. I won't talk about the numbers on that. I'll talk about one of my client deals because we help a lot of clients with very complex deals. Um, bought a piece of land, uh, with 7, um, properties on it, uh, different user classes. So some had been used as houses, some have been used as barns. So we had to go through— obviously there was lots of different properties on it. Um, bridging loan, um, on the properties. And by the time the client came to us, they had been hitting their head against a lot of brick walls, uh, This particular property, the numbers. So this is numbers: 2.4 million purchase price, 5.73 million is the total spend. So 3.33 million spent on the refurbishment of the first seven big barns. It's down in the southeast. Big barn conversions, very high-end, beautiful properties. Okay, stone buildings. Um, so, so £3.33 million spent on the refurbishment, or the— and now we get to the GDV, the block value GDV. Uh, I mean, the client got an amazing deal on them, you know, uh, it was direct to vendor, etc., etc. Um, um, there's a lot of complications on the site to do with services. That's all I'm saying. I'm not going to give any more detail than that. So we've helped them with some of that complication. Right? Um, in the end, they've now had a, um, a split value. So individual— and here's really important, um, they're C3, each one of them is C3. So they are individual residential units, which means they have access to, um, uh, residential mortgages. So buy-to-let mortgages, but residential mortgages. So the split value is Um, uh, 6.7— 7.9 million, and the block value is 6.5. So the value uplift is 1.4 million. It's a very high, uh, GDV building, right? They've also got planning for another 5 units on the land. Now, if they had— just to use an example— if they had gone and got finance based on 6.5 million, not only would they have left a lot of money in the deal, and you can work this out Uh, for your, uh, listeners, you can work this out if you do 6.5 times by 70% to get the mortgage, uh, to get the mortgage on that. Uh, I do it, I like doing it on my calculator.

4.8.

70%, it's, uh, £4.55 million. They've spent £5.73 million, so they'd have been leaving a lot of money on the table. Because they can split it, they're not leaving any money on the table. And they've been able on another piece of land that they've split off to be able to do another 5 units. So this is an example of the difference, but for people who are quite new to property, and you might have people in your community like that, literally you can do deals where there's just 2 apartments for your first deal and make it nice and simple. So it's 2 apartments, multi-unit freehold block, it already exists. You're going to go in, do the normal buy refurbish refinance model, and you're going to get 25 to 35% capital capital uplift for landlords who've owned blocks for years. If I give you a number now, it's quite scary. There's about, um, so the 7— I did an analysis between, um, over Christmas because I just wanted to get right down into the detail of the numbers on the Land Registry, and there were, um, 762,000, um, unsplit freeholds between 2 and 20 units. Right? And they were owned by private landlords, and that was 90% of the stock of that. So there was another 10% on top of that was owned by limited companies. This is not housing associations, this is not councils, it's big. And some of those landlords are wanting to sell. And as you said, Guilherme, it's, it's one of the biggest opportunities that are out there. But what happens is when clients come to us, they've often hit a wall on trying to get it done, and they've really struggled. And we, we we have to unpick a lot to get them sorted. So the best way to do it is to learn how to do it before you actually go and offer on a property. And I think somebody's already said this, but it's about making your money on the day you buy the property.

Yeah.

And yeah, you know, John mentioned yield. Actually, the yield valuations, the rent and yield valuations often come in much lower. I'm in agreement with John, I want to clear all the tenants out We, you know, clients need to now, with Tenant Reform Act coming, they need to clear the tenants out before they buy the property. So creative deals are coming more and more into play in buying those blocks, and it's a really fun time to be doing blocks. That's all I'm saying.

That's awesome, thanks so much. And ideal deal you want to invest in, ideal individual, you know, investor profile you want to work with?

Well, so let me tell you, I'll be really honest, I'm not interested in ground-up developments at all. I think there's a lot of risk. I think, I think, I think there's a lot of risk at the moment in thinking that you're going to develop a block of 20 apartments and sell them all. I think there's a really big risk in that. And Hayley mentioned earlier exit strategies, so the deal has got to stack if I have to keep it all because the market's turned and I have to refinance it on buy-to-let mortgages. And so for me, I'm— I particularly when I was, um, uh, on Property Elevator, and any deal that I'm going to look at is going to be a block deal, there's a lot of Opportunity in it. Okay. In fact, I find there's too many sweeties in the sweetie shop, and I don't know what to do about it because I know too much. So I just said to my husband the other day, we've just gone to look at block, and I went, we're going to have to buy it. And he's like, I thought we were having a few months off buying blocks. I said, well, we're going to have to buy it. Do you know what I mean? Because there's too many sweeties. Yeah. And you know, I've got for me as well, the banks are really starting to understand this strategy, which is part of the secret sauce of getting it done. So that's really good as well.

Oh, that's great. I've just— thank you, thank you very much for that. That's very, very clear. And thank you for all the insights so far. I see there is one question from the audience. If you've got more, like, put them in and we'll try to wrap up very soon. So Melanie was asking, is there— in which format do you actually invest? You know, is it like you get, you know, shared ownership, share profit? Do you like to be in and out of deals? You exit? Or you're like JV partners as equity partners for long term? Is it interest? Is it, you know, what is it, you know, one by one? If we go back to Heidi, John, and Rachel.

So I want security. So I would like to enter into a joint venture contract with you. I want a coupon on my money over the term.

Yeah, I'm very similar to Hayley really, you know, joint venture. What I normally say is sometimes I might say 25% interest on my money or 50% of the profit, whichever is the greater. Sometimes that way people want to refinance halfway through once they've sold a few flats off or something like that. which I'm very happy to come out of earlier. It gives them a little bit more flexibility, but I'm pretty relaxed about it. Yeah.

Okay. And for you, Ayesha?

For me, I want to get to know you first, so I might do something at first where I loan you the money and see that you return me my money in the timeframe you've said that you're going to return the money. And I would be realistic about that as well, because people underestimate development times all the time. And realistically, if you are investing in a deal, it's 18 months months to 2 years in my head. But I wouldn't really want to. And then once I get to know the person, we build the trust, then we might look at JVs later.

Awesome. Thank you very much. So we're going to close. Just remember, guys, in the chat I've put the resource here with the template, you know, the pitch perfect template courtesy of the guys at Property Elevator. And on that, so I'm going to go again, final question for all of you. So I'm going to go again, Hayley, John, Rachel. So if someone in the community here watching this, the recording of this today, goes and finds a deal, you know, that matches the criteria, the spirit and things you've talked about today, and they want to take it all the way to pitching it on Property Elevator, so all of that work, you know, what is the one thing that they should do first to make sure they have a good chance, you know, as they apply?

So we've just finished obviously filming Series 9, so that's out later this year. If they want to be part of the show, then they will pitch for Series 10. I would say timing on the deal is really quite crucial because often deals are time-sensitive. So if you have a deal now that you want funding for, then you can still put that through the show. We will receive that. But ultimately, if you want to be on the show now, you're going to have to wait until Series 10 or Property Elevator Live if we do one later this year. But yeah, I mean, outside of that, what are the filming seasons?

How does that work? You're filming from September to March? How does that work?

No. So I think we're filming next year now, aren't we, John?

Yes, probably February.

February next year. So they've just missed out on being part of the actual TV show, but they can still apply, but— and we'll get the information from their deals, but they can't be on Series 9 because that's already recorded. However, as I said, we are all on LinkedIn, you can reach out to us. We have people send us deals all the time. You know, while we'll actively push you to the show, we are angel investors, and if there's a deal there to be done, we're happy for you to send them through to us direct.

Thank you. And John, part of your answer, do you want to talk a bit more?

I think Hayley is the spokeslady for the whole of the show, isn't she? She's said it all, really.

Okay. But maybe something I wanted to ask you, John, is about, you know, like beyond just getting the investment from the profile, what do you get working with you? It's not just the money. It's maybe the mentoring, the working with you, it's the profile that's been raised from pitching at the show. Can you talk a bit more about the broader benefits than just the money?

Well, I think apart from the money, of course, with all of us you get our experience and you get to work with us, see how we work. Hopefully you can learn a lot from what we do. We might learn something from what you do as well, of course. So in that respect, We, you know, we— I want to be relatively active within the deal, and I'm sure Rachel and Hayley and Liv and Ranjan and Nicholas, when he's on the show, we're all the same really. We don't want it— we're not passive, you know, we're going to be asking, checking things up, checking every month and making sure that it's working and supporting you and helping you. So it's not just about the money. And actually, funnily enough, when people come on the show and say, "I don't need any expertise; I just want your money," that's the biggest turnoff of the lot. Really biggest turnoff of the lot.

Yeah. There's always we always we don't know what we don't know, and there's always more to learn. Yeah, absolutely.

And we're and we're all learning.

For all of us.

Yeah, every single day. It doesn't stop.

I can assure you. Thank you, Rachel.

So for me, it's, if you know, prep well, have it, be looking at lots of deals. You should have a deal pipeline, guys. So, you know, you shouldn't be scrabbling around trying to find a deal to come onto Property Elevator. You should have lots and lots of conversations, perhaps direct to vendor with landlords, and certainly my strategies, direct to vendor with landlords where you're having conversations and you've got a pipeline of deals that you're looking at. And then what you should actually be doing when they announce that you can pitch for the next season, uh, which will be towards the back end of this year, you should just be looking at your list and seeing which deal you're going to take in.

Yeah, absolutely.

And that's what I would recommend to people, uh, because it isn't a case of scrabbling around to find something at the last minute. You should have a pipeline of deals that you're working on. And if you're talking to vendors, which I always would recommend that you're talking to vendors, then you should have a list of deals that you're working on.

This is all music to my ears, you know, the thing I'm banging on all the time, you know, about, uh, you know, finding motivated sellers, having conversations all the time, building and entertaining your pipeline. So this is like bang on what we, we talk about today and every day here. So I want to thank everyone of the panelists who joined us today. And for all of you, uh, you know, it was just super insightful, probably one of the great sessions of the show. So, uh, for all of you who join or watching the recordings, or really, I want you to go and apply what you've learned today, you know, like go and find the deals on PropFilter. And go and apply to Property Elevator. There are incredible deals to be made right now in this current market. You need to get off your ass. That's the reality. So it's a great, great time to be alive, great, great time to be in property. So thank you everyone for joining us on today's Deal Finder Corner. I hope you enjoyed it just like I did, and I look forward to seeing you next week. In the meantime, you know what to do. Visit propertyfilter.co.uk, log on to your Property Filter account, have an endless supply of deals, become a top 1% deal maker. And make the most of this property opportunity. I look forward to seeing you next week. Thank you all. Thank you to all the property editor panelists. That was a bliss, and I appreciate all the insights and the secrets, the banter, and I have had a great time. So thank you all. Thank you.

Bye everyone. Bye bye. Thank you.

Thank you. Much appreciate.

Bye bye bye.