Episode 150 - Building a bridge to your property success with Guillaume Black

Foreign welcome to a wealthy life. My name is Vicky Wisha and today in the phenomenal episode 150. Can't believe there's been 150 of these already. I'm having a conversation with Graham Black, an entrepreneurial young French guy who literally has gone from building bridges out in Turkey. I've been on his bridges all the way through building his own property portfolio and now is a prop tech entrepreneur with a company that is supporting, I think close to 2,000 people using his software to solve problems. For people who want to move on from the house that they're currently living in. They either through divorce, death, new job opportunities, children, too big, too small, you name it. This is a really inspiring and interesting conversation. So I recommend you have a listen and find out how Guiam went from building bridges to being a prop tech entrepreneur. Hello, I am joined by Guillaume Black today. He is a baby faced, sorry, grim, but you are a baby faced property investor. But more importantly a tech, a prop tech entrepreneur. And we'll be talking about all these bits. I'm hoping to get to grill him in a friendly way. And we're going to start off with that first question of why did you start investing in property? What made you start investing in property? Because from our other chats there was some point where you were living in Turkey with your wife and building bridges.

Right, yeah. Thanks a lot, Vicky. Thank you very much for having me. Yeah, so if you want the long story, right, so yeah, I'm just some villager, village guy from France, right. And I think I was the, probably the only one of my little place. So graduated from university when you studied engineering and mechanical engineering actually and, but I hated the idea of, you know, sort of the, the factory floor and dealing with unions in France and stuff and, and so I just wanted to, and then I, I value a lot progress and, and growth. So I, and I'm very concrete. I like to see things being built and I, I don't, you know, I can abstract to some level. Right. But I, I need to go to bed where I, I've built something during the day or there's something tangible that has happened and is useful and you know, the sausage factory, you know, like it's just because I did a lot of early site placements when I was like really young in factories and stuff and it's like it never ends. Right. So next day there's just another pile of things you have to go through the machine and stuff. And it's just like I find it really, really boring doing the Same thing again. And I found it quite rewarding to, yeah, I don't know, build some cool stuff. So, you know, you know, in personal development there's a lot to be said about, you know, like vision and you get what you want and all you need is to want it and you'll figure out. So at an early age, actually I wanted to go and build like Discovery Channel type bridges basically. So this is what, Surprise, surprise, you know, like it kind of happens. But. And I think it's to, you know, my dad's a teacher. My, you know, they're all retired now. My dad was a teacher, my mom was a social, like a care worker. And so, and I'm from some village in France. Right. So, you know, if I can do a few things, like anyone can do it. Right. So I think the, it's a few encounters sometimes and then people say, yeah, you know, like this is how you apply for these type of jobs. And then, yeah, you know, like it's long. So that's it, you know. So I value a lot, you know, like, you know, mentoring, if it's encounters or paid mentoring, because you just go and engineer your way out of what you, you know, into what you want. And I've learned it, you know, on the, on the tools, if that makes sense. You know, like practically wanting to go and say, oh, let's go and build some cool bridges and then you meet the, you, you sort of somehow create your own luck and go and, and meet the people you need to meet and, and, and then that's it. So, yeah, so I started to, I had my master's degree in 2011, started to work overseas before Turkey. Actually I went into some funky countries. Like I built some bridge in Far east Russia, like 30 miles from north Korea. Most people don't really know this about me, but that was quite interesting. And then I worked off Paris, but I had projects in Belgium and Scotland. So this was where my tie with the UK started. Built some, some oil and gas kind of solution in Dundee for some companies based in Aberdeen. And I was flying all the time, you know, there and that was really cool. And, and I manage a few projects in North America and set up a few projects North America. And then I moved to Turkey in 2014 and I met my wife there and we built some cool stuff in Turkey. Again, some, you know, it's just some big bridges right there were.

So just to say, hold on, this cool stuff. I, I told you that I was going to Turkey and you shared this whole bit about bridges and Everything else, what I forgot to do is ask you at the time was which bridges? And I got this overwhelming urge to just keep sending you photos. Did you build this one? Did you build that one? But there was one nutty bridge. There was a. I mean, I'm quite sure several of them are nutty in their own forms. There is one proper nutty bridge there. And I think it goes over the Golden Horn bit, doesn't it? So not up the main bit of the Bosphorus. So the Golden Horn. And this is sort of like. It almost looks like the mouth of the Thames. It's that type of estuary bit. Yeah. And the bridge goes over it. And in the middle of the bridge is a train station. I mean, they have an amazing underground system. And so when you get off the bridge at that station, you've either got to walk half the river back to one side.

Yeah, I'm not, I'm not the architect. Right. I just filled it. No, don't ask me why. I don't know.

I know.

But if you go back to my time in Russia, we built this, it was the biggest build in the bridge in the world at the time. And you went to an island that was claimed by Japan, you know, from some old war time. So don't ask me why. You know, they build it, they decide to build and how they decide to build it. But yeah, we just got. I was just the builder, right.

I just go, I know. I just. Oh, I just thought that's absolutely brilliant. Yeah. But I mean, just as you were listing through all these countries, I'm going, right, so that's another six months. He's definitely older than he looks. Definitely. You know, it's just all this, how much you've managed to squeeze in. And I think a really important bit there you're saying about mentoring and manifesting stuff and how you wanted to build discovery style bridges from an early age. And I don't. You said the word. And then. And then it's luck. I don't think it is. I think that when you have in your head something that you want to do, you become aware of like opportunities. You get a different pair of glasses on that allows you to see those things. Because if I tied into two things, I. I loved Jacques Cousteau on the tv doing his underwater. And he built the fish slaughtering. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, just.

Well, it didn't age very well, didn't it?

No, not so much of the fish slaughtering, but. But the fact that he enabled human beings to stay under the water for so long. And I'd always loved snorkeling on the top of the goggles. And then when I found that you could do this thing with an aqualung, and that was it. And so I then happened to notice in my local swimming pool that they run a class and I went to the class and from the class I joined the club and from the club I then became a qualified scuba diver and I've dived all over the world. And it all started because I got a different pair of glasses on that then showed me these opportunities. And it was the same with property. In the early stages I knew property was a good idea, but I didn't have any words and I'm so old they had an invert vented Google. I couldn't, I didn't have any peer group to ask and I didn't have the language to ask the questions to find the peer group at the time. And then when I got the glasses, boom, that was it. And, and now 20 years in the business, where's the transition from, you've got the glasses on, you've gone out, you've built the bridges to starting. Let's do just the beginning, the starting of your portfolio.

Yeah, yeah. So actually, so I was an expert like this for, for a good 10 years. Where was it? No, not 10 years. So thinking a proper expat for like five, six years. And what this means is you're working, you know, you know, 15 days in a row, 15 hour days, you don't really spend anything because you're working all the time. And then you don't pay tax and stuff, which is great. And so, and I always, because I'm a concrete type person, I always like tangible things. And I started to invest in property in France 2013, 2012, 2013. And. But I did it all the wrong way, right? So just like an idiot. And because in France and then there's a lot of reason why it works a lot better here. So I moved in this country in 2016, continue to work in the same company, different branch. By the time I, I quit my sort of engineer career, I worked for 10 years for the same group of companies in eight different countries. And I've moved home like 14 times. And I think the main driver for that was, was that in 20, I think in 2017, 18. So a year and a half into being in the uk, I realized that, okay, I have to do some things with these pounds. You know, I'm getting paid in pounds now and, and it was worth nothing at the Time, you know, like I moved here two months before Brexit, the Brexit vote, right. So I come here and I'm a millionaire, right? Because it's like one pound buys you 1.€4 and then three months later like 1.09, right. So all of a sudden I'm not shifting that many euros, you know. You know, so. And then I never. Because I moved around quite a lot, you know, at the time I never thought I'd stay long and then I ended up staying, you know, because it's. I quite liked, I quite liked here and then. And also I liked the way you can do business here. So I have to learn, I had to learn all of this, you know. So as I said, you know, my. I'm from some village and. And my parents would probably qualify as working people, right. And so. And in France it's. You don't have, I don't. You don't have friends which, whom parents have got corn shops. You know. No one's a contractor, you know, or self employed, you know, it just doesn't exist. Yeah, like some trades people, that's probably the most entrepreneurial people you'll meet. And then so it's not in our, in my, in my veins. Right. So I had to learn and grow into all of that property. Certainly helped me that with that. So when I realized this, I was, I was growing just, you know, as you. I had a very fast career and I always managed to get what I wanted. And then, you know, like for the same reasons, you know, and because you perform, you deliver, you do what you said you are going to do and, and then to a point where you don't want the boss's job anymore. You know, it's like, oh, well, this is, you know, seemed like a little bit more money but lot more stress and, and I'm traveling a lot, you know, like I'm never so. And because I was working in quite a niche industry, I was like just digging a hole for myself and I. And I got really, really like physically upset from the old situation, you know. So it was like, you know, just. I was really unhappy. So I used to, I spent a good nine years inside cabins basically. So like literally building stuff, building teams that were going to build things and, and very outcome driven, you know. And it's. And very, you know, like common sense driven, you know. Like I'm probably the worst engineer you'll meet, but I, you know, I can deliver on a vision and let get people buying on a vision to go and build this Crazy big thing. And to deadlines nobody believes is possible, right? So that was what I was doing. And then they ran out of big projects to give me in the uk, so they asked me to go and fix their estimating and sales department in the main office in Telford. Lots of lovely people and stuff. But I, I was, I was a bit shocked, right, because I, I turn up at 7, like I would normally, you know, 7:00am like, you would normally turn up on site, right? That was quite normal. And then the office is closed. I'm like, what the hell? And I'm waiting in the car for one hour. I'm like, what is this? Right? And, and then the office manager turns up, you know, and opens the office. I'm like, yeah, we open at 8. So. Okay, okay, that's different. And so then I, I discovered very different world, you know, so for the first time I had a proper work, proper job, you know, and before it was project based, you know, it's like, let's build this, okay? We finish building this, let's move to another place and build this other thing. And it was very much, it was actually entrepreneurial from that point of view.

Yeah.

And then I turn up and I discover like nine to five gossips, mediocrity, you know, I'm like, what the hell, right? So, and, and it was just. And then my, my, my job wasn't in the delivering and building anymore. It was more in winning work. And I, and I just grew a hatred for the commercials, the politics. And I was really good at, at it, right? But it's just, I didn't enjoy it, you know, it's like, it's just. And then it was like a social sausage factory. Because once I. You work through a file to bid for a job, then you brought another file, you know, And I'm like, all.

Right, if you don't enjoy what you're doing, it doesn't matter what you're getting paid all the benefits of. Now you're in one place or reduced hours, which must have meant that you were sort of slightly less exhausted.

You don't, you don't reduce your hours when you've got a work ethic. No baseline, right? So you just first in and the last out, you know, and you don't get paid more for it, right?

No, totally, totally. I know the same from when I was in education. When I was in education, I literally went. Every year I started a new contract, even though I was doing exactly the same thing I did the year before. It's just the way they did it and, and I just was there all the time and I worked so hard and I know that I delivered for my clients because my students, I still bump into my students every so often and I bumped into a couple of them in the, the property world as well and they still remember me and you know, with the blonde curly hair and everything. And people will shout out at me from across, you know, like we've been at a concert once and someone shouted at me and, and then it turns out it was one of the students. So I know that I must have had an impact on people's lives, but when I changed from that, from going to the contracts, because what I always thought I wanted was the stability because as a young mum I needed the stability of an income. And then I got offered a job, but the job was less student facing and more office facing. Oh my God, it was so dull. It took all the joy out of being with people, you know that my sort of entrepreneurialism or creativity was the. I've got 30, 40 to 400 students in the class and I've, I know what I want to deliver but I don't know whether they're going to play the game or not, you know, and it was always that, you know, are you going to work with me or are we going to have a. We're going to have to fight the knowledge into you today. And you've got the same thing with your engineering, that's your creativity. And are all the bits of metal and concrete going to go in the right way and all the team going to pull in the right direction or is the whole thing going to collapse today? So when you then as you say that sausage factory that 9 to 5, I just knew that that was never going to work for me. So what tripped you into property?

So one is, I've done it in France before.

Right, okay. So before you came here.

Yeah, yeah. Because that, you know, rather than stocks and shares and stuff, I always like the idea of something concrete and tangible and then moving here. So within a couple of years of living here and then looking at my pounds and you know, just, you work, you don't do nothing, you save and, and then thinking, you know, I used to do all of these things in France, right. So I need to find a solution. And then, you know, what do you look at property and then, and then, and then actually I had the, the haha moment, you know, because it's like this is actually incredible what you can do in this country. So, so interest only mortgages. You don't have this in France. Right. The ability to refinance and raise debts against with an asset as a security, you can't really do that in France. So you can buy back your debt and move around one lender to another, but you can't raise more debt. Right. So the whole idea of buy, refurb, refinance and recycling one pot of cash is just. You can't do it square. All of a sudden I'm like, oh wow, there is something I can have control over. I can just build and I know based on the price I pay to buy it, based on the refurb I'm going to put into it the value. I've got control over this and I can get way into the double digit returns on this money if there's any money left in the deal and then I can use the same pot of cash again and again and again. That was the big haha moment. And then in the same time as I was having this kind of interest the UK market in the same time I was getting this disinterest in the. The career I had. Right. So that was quite. That was the idea.

Brilliant. And so what, what have you done? Have you gone for Buy to Lets? Have you gone for HMOs?

Yeah, so yeah, I've got very boring portfolio of buy to lets and HMOs so it's what, what worked for me. So I wanted cash flow. So I got the buy 2 lets initially because of the. I needed the landlord experience for the finance on the HMOs and the HMOS are what's been basically the cash flow and then doubled into SA a little bit mainly to take advantage of the Commonwealth Games in Birmingham at some point. But other than that just sticking with what works HMOs and just bought more Buy to lets and flats and things like that.

Yeah, I definitely think, I mean you said boring Buy to Let but. But I actually think there's nothing wrong with boring if boring.

Yeah, boring is a no headache, right?

Yeah, exactly. Keeps you, gives you the money that you need and allows you to have the time to do what you want. That, that's, you know, if that's boring, give me boring any day because yeah, I know I can have fun with the time that this boring money gives me. So that's good. So then just slightly over your shoulders the banner of, of property filter and we're going to talk about that when we do an interview for my community a wealthy life. But just the link. So we've gone from. I've Got you now. Control. Yes, Tick one of my words. Concrete, tangible, building, creative. But still an engineer. You haven't mentioned anything techie there, obviously, although you're young, then you've got the French property experience that's brought over and converted into the English property experience. How did he get into the tech?

It's just by necessity, because it's just the way you look at the world as an engineer is you want to fix everything. And then the property didn't work for me to start with. So you buy the books, you go to the seminars, and you move from this uninformed optimism down the ditch of the informed pessimism. This is where you start telling yourself things like, well, nothing works, Nothing stacks around here. There's no deals out there. And you think the old thing is a. Is a scam. You know, the whole thing is a lie. You know, it's like, what the hell? You know, all these people are doing what they say they're doing. There's nothing out there. And I, and I, I spent, you know, a good nine months, you know, doing like, I don't know, five to 20 viewings a week, you know, between me and my, my partners, and then just randomly booking viewings based on the pictures, the layout. You turn up at properties and no one wants to do a deal, and you're like, you know, no one's accepting the offer. And you're like, you know, this doesn't work, right? And then we, because, you know, definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, right? So unexpected, different results. And so, okay, what are the truth, you know, like, you know, if I want to put a bit of science into this, like, what are the underlying truth behind all of this? You know, like the axioms we can start to build on top of, you know, and the first thing was really that no one I knew at that time was successful and still to that day has been successful in property without building the skill and the ability to find really good deals. You can buy a couple of deals from sources and then you run out of money, right? So you can't have make significant changes in your life by just buying some random properties, right? So that's really the thing. The first thing has been, okay, if there's one thing we need to fix is one thing we need to excel at is finding deals. So are we going to do that? So, and, and we looked into this, okay, so the truth behind finding deals, so the first one is that, you know, you want to buy from, from motivated sellers. So we stop Looking at properties, we stop projecting our strategy on the properties because you were like looking at the floor plan. Oh that would do a great hmo, great area. And then you speak to them and they're like, they've got loads of, loads of offers, you know, like it's just never going to work. Right? So, so the second big rule, if you like the second axiom has been property, people, business. So what you really want is engage with those motivated sellers. Deals are bought from motivated sellers and then when you know they are motivated, it's then worth you investing in the rapport, building in the relationship, in the negotiation because you can't negotiate on the thousand properties that are within 10 miles of where you live. Right? So how do you get lucky and you know, invest your time, focus on energy, negotiating, you know, if anything, building rapport with people, you know, if you don't have an indicator that this is going to be worth your time, you know, worth your while. And so this was the, the idea and then once you find the good leads, the good motivated seller leads, then the deals were in the follow up, right? So, so if property is a people's business in terms of finding motivated sellers, it certainly is a numbers game in terms of you need a pipeline of deals, most of them will fall through, you know, if you really want to buy the life changing ones. Right? So, so that, that were, that these were like the big learn the big ideas, you know, the big ideas. And, and, and when we created Prop Filter it was just for ourselves, so it didn't have a name. You know, I remember I was the opposite of an entrepreneur at the time, you know the, and so it was called like L Software and it was just for me a way to filter down and qualify the viewings worth doing, you know, in my area. So I started and then we did quite well, decided to get some awards and recognition in the property space and, and then other people were like oh you've grown super fast, you know, so what's the secret? And at the, at the beginning, just to illustrate or, or of an entrepreneur, I was, I was like well build your own mate, you know, like why are you asking me? Right? So this is not like I'm not selling my secret, right? And, and then we gave it away to like a half a dozen of our, yeah, property friends, you know, you know you join some groups and yeah part of some community, you know, mastermind and groups and stuff like that. We just gave it away to one nearest friends and, and they started to do quite, quite well and then they started to ask us, oh, could you build, could you build this? Could you add that? You know, and like, okay, then we had to grow into the demand of this, you know, because I will pay you if you do this. It's okay. So is that what is our business are created? Right. It's just, yeah, we were just figuring out and so fast forward a few years now there's almost 1700 members using it up and on the country. I've got a team of 40 and it's like, I'm struggling to. It's like dangle of the, the Rockets, you know. So.

Yes.

So yeah, it's been really, really rewarding. And now I've, you know, because you. We had to grow and, and I, I said at the start I value growth and things like that. So this been a really incredible. Yeah, let's say journey, you know, to, to be part of. And it's demanded of me to grow into the demand of the situation quite a bit and all the people around me, which has been really, really exciting and. But what excites me the most is the results our members are getting and I've now grown really addicted to the impact we have. So we're not just sitting on a million pound opportunity, we can build ourselves, you know, in terms of our own portfolio. But all of a sudden it's, you know, 1700 times a million pound, you know, or. And then it's going to grow more. It. It's growing months on months. Hugely. So we, we attract all the savvy, serious and active investors and, and yeah, they're doing really, really well on the platform and it's very rewarding to see.

Brilliant. And, and this is just really in five, six years from. From when you started it for yourself.

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Five years. Yeah.

But I know that in the year since I met you, because I met you, I think it was summer last.

Year, a year and a half ago.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. When we were at the Property Educators Summit, that, that what you had then is already sort of almost like a. Not a beta version but version one and you're up to version.

Yeah, we're like. Yeah, every month. Right.

Yeah.

So, yeah, we're not some, you know. Yeah, we're not some guys in the garages anymore. Right. So, you know, we have got some proper developers in the uk. You know, it's a proper enterprise setup in terms of the way we. The system, the architecture, you know, if you want all the geeky stuff behind it, it's proper, proper big business, serious and, and then, yeah, we served and we make all of this tech available to, you know, the normal people investors, you know, like the working people investors, you know, to, to.

That's going to be our phrase from now on.

Yeah. To write a bit of a. Yeah, a bit of something in the news. Yeah. So we don't have a product for like enterprise or, you know, banks and funds and stuff. It's very much. For me, the vision is to, you know, make property investing accessible to everyone because I've seen the goods it's done to my life and I know the good it can do to most people's life. Right. And I really want to level up the old, the old industry. So just make success a lot more predictable for anyone on the course, you know. So, you know, if you go and shop around for a course, I would recommend, you know, ask if they have props filter as part of the curriculum. You know, it's. And you can see that, you know, a lot. The success rate people have on the course is just a lot bigger. Right.

So, yeah, definitely. Well, that, that's one of the things that, that I wanted to speak to you about because after this we're going to do an interview for my community, as I said to you. And there's a. There's a couple of bits that were synergies there. So I've always thought that the most important strategy. Well, or technique, let's say, rather than the strategy, because the strategy is why you want to. The most important technique that you can have or skill that you can have as a property investor is the ability to source property. And that's effectively what your filter is doing. It's filtering out what won't work and allowing you to source and to focus in on what does work. And that for me has always been really interested. And I remember like a million years ago when I did my training that this idea of the motivated or distressed investor, and there was a whole strategy at the time where you could wait outside of courts when you knew that they were doing the cases around repossession. And what you were literally doing was stalking people as they were about to go into court, engaging them in a conversation, handing them a letter. And the letter was, I will buy your house for cash. And you were, you were truly in the shark mode of, of you were circling people that were bleeding and about to go and get their heads chopped off. It was absolutely horrendous. So you're not. That's not your motivated seller. Your motivated seller is someone who wants to sell, but for whatever reason. And quite often it's deluded prices or whatever else or sometimes they've been on the market and they actually thought they had a sell and the, the buyers pulled out or dropped out or couldn't proceed for whatever reason. But your motivated sellers are not, not people who are bleeding that we're going to prey on. They're actually people who want to sell and you can not exactly see the reason, but you can start to extrapolate what's gone on.

Yeah, yeah. You know, when you speak with them. So there will be signs that. So basically. So it's great you said about you know like working together and how it's the synergy between you property filter, you know, like the educator and props filter. It's very much there because the system will identify the best motivated seller leads and then we give you the framework to convert all these good leads into great deals. You know, once you do 10 times fewer viewings, once you send 10 times fewer letters and you start to have those 10 times more interesting conversation, what do you say? And this is where you know, the educator comes in and helps you to negotiate all the person to person type technique things. And the software will sort of, you know, find you these, you know, these people to speak to. Basically.

Yeah.

And then, and then what we find is people need their hand hold their handheld for the negotiation on this part which is not very scalable. I can't coach 2,000 people. And so this is where it works really well together with the educator and what you said about the motivation. So people will sell properties below or less than what they were for lots of reasons and really these, because we have a problem of some sort. And your job as an investor is to create value by solving problems. So, so the system will pick up that there's a pattern here because they're dropping the price every two weeks, you know, and they, they are moving from one agent to another all the time and they had the cell fall through and, and, or that they've got an underlying problem, you know, because they have a short lease or because they, they are, you know, they potentially negative equity and they are struggling to sell it for less than what they bought it for in 2008, you know, and, and so they have a problem here and then knowing the different strategies and tactics and ways to do deal which might be creative really help you, you know, help you help them solve these problems and problems you have. You know, it might be that they, they found their dream home, right? They are moving. They found their dream home, they can't afford to lose it. You know, there's high demand for this home over there. They need to get out of their chains or sell their house as quickly as possible just to secure it. You know, it's the most important to them. And then they can't, you know, they can't afford to waste their time with, you know, some tire kicker. We're gonna, you know, get them lose nine months and lose their dream home.

Yeah.

All the way to more tragic things, you know, with probate and things like people splitting up and, and things like that, then people want to move on in life. Right. So, and, and it's very stressful to sell one's property. And the way you can help people is you create, you get paid basically by removing all of this stress, you know, and, and there's hundreds of reasons why people want certainty. There's always a reason why people want speed or both of them. So.

Yeah, so that's now just to clarify, Property filter as a piece of software doesn't tell you that this person's getting divorced or that typically probate, that's the bit that comes through the rapport building. And you can have. And then the other thing is that you're not specifically cutting out estate agents, you're finding the information, but you're still working in amongst the whole sort of picture.

You can go fast. So on props filter you can find all the properties that have added their self, fallen through, you know, close to where you live and click a button, send them a campaign of letters. You know, one letter today, one in two weeks, one in four weeks, one in two months, whatever you want, and then speak directly with the, the vendors. And then equally, you know, you can go and book the viewings and you know, and speak with the agents, do the deal with the agents, et cetera. And the way, the way to see it is you can go fast direct to vendor. You might be able to do a deal, but then you don't. You miss out on all the opportunity to build yourself a reputation in your area of being, you know, the local property problem solvers that all the agents are passing deals to. And the same way property income compounds, relationship compounds. You know, you work with an agent once or twice and all of a sudden you have their best mates.

Yeah.

And they just send you loads and loads of really good quality deals and all of a sudden you've got loads of people working for you.

Yeah, because that's the multiplication. I mean I've got the same thing where I literally only in the last 12 months have been focusing in on two new agents that I didn't used to use before because the one that I've got the contact had left and I feel they've gone downhill. So I picked two new agents and now I literally pick up the phone and it does help. You got a bit of a different name. Whereas if you pick up the phone and you're John Smith, it's harder. But you know, with Graham and, and Vicky Wash, I pick up the phone, it's Vicki Washay and they go, oh, hello. They know, they know me, they, they recognize my name and sometimes I get emails straight from them. You know, there have been a few where they've gone. This is about coming to market and I think this is because there's a couple of very specific property types that I look for and then the rest are just sort of general buy to lets. I think you're right. There is that temptation to think, oh, you know, if I go direct to the vendor, would there be a benefit? And I suppose what you could be doing is saving the vendor five or whatever amount of fee, five grand fees or whatever it is from the, from the estate agent would sell them and maybe you save that money and maybe they give you that discount instead. But as you say, you're not, you're then only working one to one, you and that vendor. And when you've bought that house, then you've got to go and find another vendor. There is that advantage of working with the estate agent. But, but the point is it's up to you. And everybody operates in a different way. Every, every business owner will have their own both moral compass, both goals, both personality traits. Like you said, concrete, tangible, controllable. You know, some, some of the people, those things might not matter to them and they'll operate in a different way to you or, or to me for that matter.

So you know me. I think what's interesting with where we've got to now is because we've got this community of like 1700 members doing deals up and on the country and they are a member because they are here to do deals, right? So we have a lot of insights on what works and what people do. And not because we don't really know from the data, but we have very short feedback loop with a live chat and lots of calls we run with our members and interviews and things like that. And then even though what we find is the ones who do really well is even though they might go direct to vendor to make sure their message comes across and they can do A deal. They will go and make it good with the agent.

Purchase through the agent. Oh, absolutely.

And then the agent remembers you, always remember you for that. And so, oh yeah, I saw the sign, I knocked on the door, I had a conversation, we done a deal, right. So they don't know they received six letters from you. But you know, they don't have to know. Right. But then you come back to them and they're like, okay, great, you know.

Like get their commission, it doesn't matter.

That's right. And then you say, okay, we got anything else? You know, we got anything else coming up that looks like this? And yeah, I bet you they'll think of you because you've. And then you want, you want to drive is just from a positioning. You want to drive this, you know, take the initiative in this and say, you r. The agent say, oh, my name is Guillaume. You know, I was speaking with your vendor at that property. We agreed a deal and I just wanted to make sure this is all run past you for memorandum of sales and things like that. So this is what was said. Here are the details of my solicitors and let's, let's get moving, you know.

Yeah, no, I, I absolutely agree with you. I mean, I've got one at the moment where I'm actually bizarrely working with the tenant to try and get the deal because the landlord is such a bad landlord that they've been repossessed, which is perfect example. But going through the corporate, the corporate just wants to sell it, but I'm not prepared to buy it unless I've got my answers from the tenant. So. Or about the tenancy. So we're actually, you know, I'm, I've done the knock on the door thing and see his number just there.

Yeah, it's a people business, right. So people think the data is going to solve all their problems. So it's not. Right. So people say, you know, I can't find deals that stack. It's a. Yeah, nothing stacks, mate. You know, surprise, surprise. You know, the problem is we've been taught, you know, by Amazon and the tech companies where you go online, you click on the button, you add to the card and then it's delivered to you. You check out your front door next day and the price is the price and you got it, you got it immediately and, and then it's not our property works. So it's called an asking price for a reason. You know, it's not cool day. The dead set price to complete. Like it's an asking price so bloody ignore the asking price. And people are just scrolling through these things and like, oh, it doesn't stack. Doesn't stack. Yeah, nothing will stack. So the secret is identified because you can't go and speak to everyone is to identify the ones that are worth speaking with. You know, those vendors that are worth speaking with because you'll see the patterns and then, and then when you speak to them, they'll tell you the problems they have. You know, two, here's one mouth, you know, say oh, you know, I hear what you say, I hear what you say. And you know, like let, let me see if I can help you. Let me see if I can help you. And then you work with them and then Vicky will, will teach you how to basically get them to lower their price. Lower their price, lower their price until it stacks, you know, and it's a process. It takes weeks and months of negotiation and then you back the, you know, like the life changing deals, you know, so that's, that's really, really is how it works.

So I wish you were around in 2008 when I started doing it myself often.

Yeah. So people, you know, like, so people wish, you know, people wish they had, they had started before. People wish they had things before and it's just, it's different. It was different. Right? So at the time there was different, there were different ways of doing it, different ways of having an advantage, you know, and now there's different ways of having an advantage, you know. You know, when 90 of what's on the market is a waste of time.

Yeah.

You know, you want to use the, basically the tools that can help you find the needles in the a stack of the deals that are out there. So.

Yeah, definitely. And I think probably the one advantage I had is that I could buy houses for, for 50000 up north and now worth 150 000. And, and I bought flats in London for 150000 and stop robbing 50 000. So yeah, but I mean, you know, that's the thing, isn't it? That's, that's how it worked for me when I started. But in a more.

Did it feel expensive, Vicky? Did it feel expensive at the time? Was it a lot of money? You know, was it a lot of money?

No, some of the early ones weren't a lot of money. But then when the prices started creeping up you go, yeah, but I mean.

Like it was the price, was the price, right?

Oh yeah, definitely the price was the price. But also don't forget for Me that, that everybody's saying, oh, the interest rates are high now. That's what I started at. I started at 5% interest rates. And so you, you had to make the maths work. But I think that one of the things that it says in here is you keep saying, what did you, how did you phrase it? Something about you, you can sort of like see the history of, of this property that's currently on the market. You can see the signs and everything else. What I really liked was, was the amount of data that you have pulled into one place that allows on one screen so much more analysis rather than you've got to go to this website and that website and this website and that website and then you've got to look at this and then you've got to look at that. You, it just, it has. As you say, if there are thousands of deals out there, the quicker I can get to going no. And I've always thought of that as well the same with buying houses, the quicker I can get a no. So you want to say no, great, then I can go to another one because there are loads of properties that I need to look at. And even if you've been through the filtering of property filter, there are still loads of properties out there and loads of vendors to have conversations with. And the sooner you get to know, the sooner you're going to get to yes because the no's you just knock off. Great. Now that leaves me these to focus on and, and then you put your time in the right places because this can become all consuming. I remember when I first started out, that was literally all I would do and I would view as many as 20 properties in two days. We weren't able to drink because we couldn't go to toilet because all of the places were repossessed and all the loose wharf. So we would have to do all of these viewings and have systems to try and remember them all and then take a break to go to what I called my mcoffice because that was the one place where I could get warm, get a hot drink, use the loo, do a bit of WI fi. And I used to have to carry my laptop around with me because I had to like log into my McDonald's free Wi Fi because none of this was on the phone, you know. So I mean nowadays it is so easy. You've got access to everything at your fingertips. But now with property filter to be able to filter that information through, that's great. I just, I love the fact. So just, I suppose it Is because obviously we wandered off down a little line there about going on about how great Property Filter is. But what I really wanted to do was understand like your thinking and the systems here. So in your team of 40, I think you also mentioned when you started investing, you use the we word. You must have a tech whiz kid somewhere there in the background if you're the engineer.

So I have no idea how it works, like personally. So I started because I entered in partnerships with a friend of mine, my best man, best friend, Florian. So, okay, let's do properties together. And he has the same value as me. He was working for a British company, building the GLR plant in Slovakia, making money in pounds, same time as me, same situation as me. And then looking at this worthless currency to say like, what could we do with it right at the time? And then say, okay, let's go into properties together. It seems like a good idea. And then he came over and then we struggled together basically to make it work. And then we went back to these, okay, what are the truth? And they turn out to be pretty. How do you call it? I forgot the term. No, it would come back to me. I forgot the term. No worries. So basically we started with these axioms and these truths and then we went out to ask. Flo's brother said, can you do a bit of a tool? So he's more of a programmer. So building real life machines. He doesn't know cloud, doesn't know web, doesn't know app. He didn't know at the time. So he knew nothing about the tech stack to build what we needed. But he could code a few things. Right. So he was really good at real life machines, you know, like robots and things for factories. That's his background, simulators and stuff like that. And then he built a little tool for us to go and qualify the viewings and everything I do, I do in partnerships. So I'm a people's person at art. I think one of the big haha moments over the last sort of five, six years has been to understand wealth dynamics and understanding myself and the dynamics of working with other people and, and things like that. And then all of a sudden I can just focus on being you, talking with you on the podcast. Whereas my team is coding. Right. I wouldn't. They can't come and have a conversation with a. Can you imagine? It's recorded, it's going to be on the Internet, right. So. And I'm much more in flow having a friendly conversation with, you know, and valuable conversation with you and then they are much more valuable to go and code and do what they are really good at. So as soon as you understand what you are really good at and you can partner or build a team of people who've got similar values, same work ethics and have got complementary skills and getting flow in the stuff you get in pain, then you do really well.

Great. That's great. I love listening to your story. I still think, I keep thinking back to. So he must have been buying houses when he was 12.

No.

In order to get to know. I know I'm only playing with you. No, that's great. I, I thank you very much for sharing that and, and also sharing, you know, the evolution into Property Filter because I think it's, it's really interesting with, you know, the advent and this has come about almost before AI has really hit the scene, coming about and looking at how software, I suppose that's what I would call this more than anything else, that the software can make your life easier. Whereas you know, there's the, the old fashioned and the slug it out way and if there is a, a sieve or a filter that you can shake out so that just all the good stuff comes out and you can work with the good stuff, that's, that's really helpful. Let's have another conversation and maybe you can take me through the details of how to use Property Filter and we'll stick that over in the community for anybody that's interested there. But what I'll do for everybody else who's listening, I'll stick all the details about Property Filter and, and how they can get in touch with you if they want to, straight into the show notes after this and I'll let you know when this is coming out so that you can share it with others as well. Thank you for your time, Graham.

Thank you. Most welcome. Always pleasure speaking with you.

Yeah, you too. All right, well, we'll chat again shortly. In the meantime, this has been Guillen Black from Property Filter Sharing how if you like the personality traits that he's got has taken him from being an engineer to a property investor and then on to a property tech entrepreneur, even if he didn't realize until a bit late. Thank you. Thank you, Kim.

Thank you very much.

That was a fascinating conversation for me. I love hearing people's journeys. There's always slight differences but then you can pick up on what are the key things, you know, what drives people to just step out of having an ordinary job. Although not, I don't think building bridges is an ordinary job. But from having a job to then being in a position where you're responsible for making your own money and eventually, as Graham's done, you're now responsible for the livelihood of your team. So a very fascinating conversation I think you'll agree with. There are links to Guillaume Software. He's very kindly given me the opportunity to share this with you. So check out the links if you want to go and take your journey into property that one step further by using Property Filter. And of course make sure that you join a wealthy life community to hear the exclusive interview that I have with him where he really takes us through one to one how to use this software, which I think is absolutely phenomenal. We've been using it and I definitely recommend it to you too. All the best. And speak to you next week.