🏘️ How Not to Get F**ked at Auction with Jay Howard

Welcome everyone. Welcome to this another episode of the Deal Final Corner. So this is your weekly Props talk show brought to you by PropsFilter. I'm hosted by myself, Guillaume Black, your favorite Frenchman, CEO and co founder of PropsFilter. So the UK's highest rated platform to find deals. And as you know, we're on a mission to empower our property investor and deal sourcer members to find another thousand deals this year thanks to the prop tilted blueprint where I should have a better target because they've been 3,000 and a bit in the last 12 months. So we need to crank this up a bit. So the purpose really with this different corner is to give you more and the best of the available resources by inviting expert guests who will share with you the latest and most current strategies, tactics and secrets about what actually works right now in terms of finding and making deals and the reality of systemizing and running a high performance business in property. So really is my pleasure to reintroduce my good friend Jay Howard on today's Deal Final Corner. So Jay's been working within the property industry sector, trading property since like more than 20 years, since the beginning of the millennium. Right. And at that time he was advised family trust of almost 3 billion increased the net value of the trust from 2.7 to 3.3 billion at the time. He's been an auction manager at London property auction companies for quite a while and he's been back in the days and traded properties where he's made as little as 400k on a single trade or even more sometimes. So Jace got three degrees and used to learn dead languages for fun. So we'll have lots of allegories and things I'm sure today we usually have quite some fun here. It's been kidnapped and stabbed, held at gunpoint. You know, it's got lots of stories to share and an amazing human being to be fair with you. So he's here to talk about how amazing auctions are and can be and especially right now in this market. So we see on Property Filter there's twice more, you know, twice more properties available in auction right now than they were just a year ago last summer. And then who better than Jay, who wrote the book, you know, before the Armor Falls, which for me, if you've not read it, you are missing out if you are interested in Auckland or not. I believe it's the best property book out there and the one that articulate best how to do due diligence and things like that. So he really knows his stuff. He's coming back after, after a while. So we've been on the on we've done one episode some time ago and we had lots of good fun and today we're going to talk about auctions, Aurora and success stories and Jay is going to share the unfiltered reality about what's happening right now and what can go really wrong in auction rooms. He will share no nonsense advice so expect some good, good Frank speaking you know between the two of us or to navigate auctions like a pro open, you know, avoid taps and actually walk away with making a profit. You know so you'll see the talk will be there'll be zero sugar coating, brutally honest. We'll have lots of fun I'm sure And Jay as always will share some powerful truth. Every investor needs to hear if you are interested in auction or not. By the way, you know it's quite, you know his knowledge is quite, quite broad so and for everyone who atone who is attending today so really, really pleased to share with you. Jay is very, very kindly pre recorded a course which is called not to get fucked at auction which we are getting exclusively for the property member for free for the coming few months. So yeah make sure you make the most of that. So I'm really looking forward to the presentation the conversation with with Jay again. So please join me and give Jay a massive profit filter. Welcome over to you my good friend.

You have to be one of the very few people that would introduce me like that. It's fantastic. Thank you very much. Love spending time with GR and the property filter guys had GR out to Portugal a couple of times and what happens in Portugal stays in Portugal. But those are normally really good events. But let me see if I can share my screen this one and then I can click present and yeah, there we go. Can everybody see my screen? Is that excellent? So yeah, no, fantastic. Thank you for having me back. So these are technically the three things that we we currently do. So Property Auction hunters is our YouTube channel. We're releasing weekly content there, there's a whole back catalog of videos talking about auctions, how to access auctions, looking at specific deals auctions and how we basically go through things. We love our due diligence so that's a big part of what we do. Hammered is we're could kind of think of us as auction brokers. Clients come to us and we position their properties in whichever auction is going to be best to make sure that they get the best price for their property and don't get at auction is the new pre recorded course that we put together that we will be offering to you guys for free. Free until the 30th of September. We're really excited about it. We've had a little bit of a pre launch and people seem to getting on board with it quite nicely. So it's all about just kind of getting good valuable knowledge and experience out there just to make sure that people can approach auctions in a very confident and safe way. But yeah, let's get started. So I'll be covering today how to identify deals at auction. And and essentially this is going to break down to. If you're looking at things that everybody else is looking at, you're always going to be disappointed at auction, you're always going to be outbid and you're just going to think it's a waste of time. So I'll be showing you how to identify deals at auction and then how to proceed and make those deals happen. Two, it will be auction to open market trading. So that's when you buy something at auction to flip into the open market and then open market auctions. That's something that you find on the open market that's just cheap. The agents have done a quite a few price drops as you'll find on on the property filter platform. That's one of the key metrics and you just think actually it's not being marketed well, I can put it into auction. I'll get more eyeballs and it will sell for more. I always like to do a little bit of a tease around underwriting because it's something really nobody actually hears about or knows about. And if they do, they expect it to be something that isn't or just use it as kind of like a free money thing to do. And that's not really the way to treat it. And last is some basic information about the don't get at auction course with a link. But I think Gwynnelm and the guys at Property Thoughts will send you a link and everything to give you access anyway. So let's get this thing kicking off. So is it a deal? Let's say you find a property at auction or you're going through a catalogue. These are the things that you need to look out for. So it requires a little bit of market knowledge and experience. What we recommend is focus on three or four auctioneers and just watch their catalog for half a year which is probably going to be about 4 to 5 auctions for some of them. What you're looking for is you're looking for the stock that they get, that they market well, and that sells very well. Like a price where you think there's no way it's going to sell that price. You want to be looking at those. You want to go, right, this is where I sell that stock. And you want to be looking at the other assets that they have that don't sell well. And then you may be on one of the other auctioneers you're paying attention to. You can see they sell that type of thing well. So then you buy it from the auctioneer, it doesn't perform well, and then you sell it through the auctioneer that does perform well. We call that auction arbitrage. That's taking an asset from one auction and arbitraging it into another auction. So identifying which auctioneers have strong links to a certain area or strong links to a certain asset class. You know, there are some auctioneers that are very good at commercial, and there are some that are terrible. So if you're looking at buying commercial for commercial, yield for sas, for commercial to residential, you want to be paying attention to the auctioneers that always struggle with the residential. Now, the other thing is, let's say the auctioneer is based in Manchester, but they're selling a property in Kent. Okay, that's really important because what are the chances that a Manchester auctioneer has an active live database for people buying and selling in Kent? It's rare, it's random, it's. It's not going to get the best price. So sometimes identifying what the auctioneer is and the location of the property and seeing actually how fluid that property is in that catalog is going to be something that you want to be paying attention to. So location is really important price. So price is fantastic. Auction, it's even better if it's priced wrong. What do I mean when it's priced wrong? What I mean is, if it's priced too high, this is something you know is going to go unsold. Like nobody is paying that money. These are ways to get deals. When it doesn't sell it as a price issue, you may have to pay attention to the auction. Maybe it gets relisted and the price comes down and down and down. But essentially what you're looking at is somebody who instantly isn't motivated by price. But because the property keeps failing to sell, the price metric starts to kick in. And marketing, we're going to talk about marketing a little bit more in a minute. But marketing is very simple. And auctioneers either do this badly or complicatedly. And it's the same thing with estate agents. So making sure that there are internal, external images, that there's a floor plan, that there's a video walkthrough that is actually being marketed properly, these are things that you are looking for. So on the left hand side of the screen we have an X. On the right hand side of the screen we have a tick. So you want to be buying in an, in a deal in the situation where it's the wrong auctioneer, the wrong location, the wrong price, poor marketing and finally the legal pack. Now, in order to make an offer on a property auction, you have to have a legal pack. But not all legal packs are created equal. So a lot of what you're going to see with these legal packs is maybe it's missing vital information, maybe the information in there isn't clear enough. Well, if you can identify those issues that are putting buyers off and then rectify that legal package, you're putting a proper pack. You know, the epc, the lease, the title documents, the tenancy details, all of that stuff, a couple of certificates, you know, the windows, the. If it's a tenanted property, for instance, residential, maybe it's worthwhile putting in the fact that they've got the boiler certificate and they've got all these things and it's compliant. From a letting perspective, people aren't doing that yet at auction and we're starting to recommend to our clients, at least have been for the last year, to put the compliance documents. If your property is residential and let into the legal pack, it will make residential investors more comfortable with that tenant. Right? So remember, you're buying on the X and you're selling on the tick. So if you're buying from the X, you want to be selling in an auction where it's a green tick, where the location matches, where the price is competitive and it's getting people to perform where you've absolutely nailed the marketing and the legal pack is just perfect. Right? So this is how you identify if something's a deal or not at auction. Now this is like absolute perfection. If not everything on the left hand side on the cross is, is red ticked, red crossed. It doesn't matter if the auctioneer is wrong, the marketing wrong and the legal pack is wrong, you're probably still going to pick up a good deal even if the location and the price is right. You know, if the price is wrong, but the marketing, the legal pack, the location and the auctioneer is right, you're probably going to do a good sell at auction. You know, you just have to balance things out. Is everybody clear and happy on, on that side of things? Okay, cool. So next is a case study. I love this case study. There was a guy who was in our auction buyers club I think for just under two years and he, he, he had the ability that even when we went through auction catalogs and we're like okay, there's nothing very interesting here. He'd pull something like this out. He'd just pull it out of thin air. So you can see on the left hand side, this is a property in Cookham. It's an arcade which is basically a multi let commercial building. There is a flat above and there is a cottage to the side that kind of goes around to the back and a little courtyard. He bought this at auction for 814,000 pounds. Now he, he basically took it from one auction and split it into the individual parts. So you can see the top one on the, on the right hand side is Rosalie cottage. That was the cottage that he sold that sold pre auction. The Rosalie flat which is the part above sold auction for 220. And he sold the arcade for 385. So he bought it for 814 and he sold it for 980 and he did that within a few short months. So his trading profit on this, if you excuse some of the costs, bear in mind he brought this on commercial stamp duty because it was all under, all under one thing. So the stamp duty was minimalistic compared to if you were buying the cottage and the flat separately and by just having the vision to separate it out because these are three different buyers. The reason he was able to buy this so cheap is because it's rare that somebody's going to want a cottage, a flat and an arcade shop. Right. But there are people that are going to want the arcade. There is somebody who's going to pay more money for the flat and there's someone who's going to want to live in the cottage and those individual buyers are going to contribute to the fact that this is going to be selling for more money. That was a really impressive deal. We actually helped him kind of trade that and sell that out which was really interesting. So next we have auction to open market and I've got it here, it says it's flipping good because essentially that's what you're doing, you're flipping. Yeah. So it's looking at what flips well at auction. What flips well from auction to open market. One of the things that we always advise people look for is assets that generally Speaking aren't really prime auction stock, right? So you wouldn't take a burnt out house from auction and put it on the open market. It's the wrong stock. You want to be buying a burnt out house from the open market and sticking into auction or off market. You want to, you'll make crazy money with a burnt out house. What you want is, you want people who have been looking to sell their property, normally flats or houses for a long time. Maybe there's a problem with them getting the mortgage for their buyers. Maybe the agent is just a poor marketeer, maybe the price is wrong, whatever. So these are normally people who've kind of lost faith in the traditional estate agency selling method and they put their property into auction. Now these could be flats or houses that are just in okay condition. You know, maybe it needs a 5k thrown at it. You know, change a carpet, paint a room, light touch, very, very, very light touch stuff. But it's the kind of thing that if you can buy it at auction cheaper than what they were listing it on the open market for you as an investor or someone that does flips on a regular basis, instead of a homeowner, you would be able to say, right, I could dress the property up like this, I can make sure there are better pictures, I can make sure there's a floor plan, I can try and resolve whatever the mortgage issue is, if there is anything at all. And those are the perfect kind of properties that you can flip from auction to open market. And we normally say here, you know, less is more and it really does matter. There are so many people that go to auction looking for complete hovels, right? These are the kind of things you see on Homes under the Hammer where It needs a 50,000 pound refurb and it came in under budget and it only took them six days and it's added £400,000 to the value. No other stupid they say on that show, but you don't need to do that. Some of the best opportunities you find at auction for flipping is a property that's in near perfect condition, but the sellers have been motivated by something. You've been able to pick it up cheap and you have the luxury of time to be able to put it on the open market to achieve the best market value over time. That's essentially what you're looking to do. So in a situation like this, doing less physical work to the property is ideal, right? So one thing that you want to do is when you're structuring the flip, you need to do it so that it doesn't flop. A good friend of mine called Oliver, he's a property trader. He's quite a unique property trader insofar as a lot of property traders don't go to the properties that they buy. I'm one of those. I've been to maybe a third of the properties I've bought. Most of them I've never even seen. I've probably never been on the road that they've been bought on or sold on before. It's not a responsible thing to do. It's just how I work. But Oliver would go to every single property and he'd be buying the homes under the hammer crap. You know, the things that are like, there was a hoarder in there, or it was part burnt down, or, you know, it was let out to a tenant who was subletting it to, you know, half the Ukrainian army, that like a whole thing going on. And he would go in and it would take him two or three days by himself because he's a lunatic. And he would clear it. So he'd get a skip. He'd empty the entire building out. He'd go in with so many bottles of Dettol. He's got a hazmat suit. He's got a gas mas for the fumes. He's got a real professional setup. So he'll clear it and he'll clean it. He puts air fresheners in there. He leaves the windows open. He gets a dehumidifier. He does everything. So he just takes it back to, you know, not taking it back to brick, but just taking it back to empty and where someone can look at it and go, right, I can put my sofa here. A tenant would pay X to be in here. I just have to change the carpet. You know, he wouldn't change carpets. He wouldn't change kitchens or bathrooms. He would just do a smarten up. But like a deep clean. And the next bit is rebranding it. So sometimes these properties sit on the market for a long time and people know, oh, that's the. That's the hoarder house. Where, you know, that person lived there for 30 years. And it probably smells like cat piss or whatever the story is. Or they were rats or they were this or they were that. And there's always a story with these things. So you need to rebrand it. And what he does is he bought himself a very expensive camera. You don't have to do this. You can get someone. You can hire someone to do this. A very expensive camera. And he Would take professional pictures of every single room. He'd do a measured floor plan. He would do. He's got himself a drone. I think he convinced himself, his wife, that the drone was for work. So you've got this drone. So now most of his properties you can see from above. So you can see the roof, you can see the plot as it stands out. He does everything, and then he does a video walkthrough all the way through the building. And what he does is he hands that package, that marketing package over to the auctioneer and or over to the agent. He does all the work for them. And that's what I mean. There is very little cost to doing most of that, you know, apart from your own time going there, clearing it, cleaning it and rebranding it. And again, it's, it's keeping. Keeping these things kind of simple. There is an expectation, I think, for investors to go, right, I bought it for this, I now need to add some value to it. And people normally think if I'm adding value, I have to spend money. Right. So you think, oh, maybe I'll just change the kitchen and put new flooring down and that's it. You know, okay, that. That could be close to ten grand. You don't need to do that. Technically, if you're flipping, it's not necessary. And one of the things with auctions is you're looking for speed and turnaround of deal. So this isn't the case of doing a deal like this isn't to get the maximum return. It's to get a quick, easy return with minimum cost and minimum effort. Yeah, because you want to be able to say to yourself, if I'm doing a full refurb and remarket and resell, how many of those can I do a year? Four, maybe. But if you're doing it this way, the way I've described, you could do 20 a year easily in the same time frame with less cost. The profit margin will be slightly less depending because you're not putting a great deal of physical labor and change into the property. But it's super quick and easy. And bridging enables you to buy from auction and flip into the open market very easily. So that is auction to open market flipping. And we're finding, actually there's a trader and he's quite unique in the way that he does things. At the moment, he is only buying from auction and he's buying from auction to specifically flip to the open market. And why that's rare is because most traders get things off market, put it to auction or they buy it from one auction and sell it to the other auction in the way I've described to you earlier. But he is taking the slower route, which is auction to open market. He knows it's the slower route, but he knows it's the best return route because it's going to get him more money on the upside. So that's a good route for people to take and structuring the flip so it doesn't flop. These are really important. I always tell people if you are buying it from auction, you want to have access to the property between exchange and completion. Right. And the reason you want to do that is you pretty much want to clear that property out before you complete. You want to clean it before you complete. So the moment you complete you can list it on with an estate agent already done. It's about optimizing yourself so you're not having cost overruns. Obviously the longer you hold a flip it starts to flop because finance costs, because market changes, because of all of these things. So speed is definitely your friend. Next slide. So this is a great one. Again this is somebody who's in our auction buyers club. And this is in the place Seven Oaks in Kent. And this, this was a huge property and he had made a pre auction offer, I think of, I want to say about 380, 390. This had been to auction, this was through Clive Emerson auction. This had been through their auction several times. And I think the, it was originally on the market for I think about £600,000. And over time the price had come down. The important thing about this is it's a probate and the person who passed away had lived in the property up to two years before passing. And the client on this one did no physical works to the property. It's obviously not showing the internal images but just imagine it's a nice wood beamed cottage in okay condition and it was just an okay condition. So you have the stamp duty exemption here because it's probate. And he had bought it for 350, no stamp, just legals. I don't think there were any real fees in the special conditions, which is, which is rare but it's a probate. So that's fairly common there. And within six months he sold it for 475. So I would say start to finish, he is probably looking at a pre tax profit of about £100,000 in six months. One of the things that I always kind of talk to investors about is all investors are like no, no, I'm Buying to build a portfolio. I'm not thinking about selling anything. The idea of capital gain scares the hell out of me. Blah, blah, blah, blah. If you were to introduce trading or flipping into your strategy, maybe set up a separate vehicle for that and have the sick code for trading your own property. You don't pay capital gains on this profit. This is all, this is all company tax, that corporation tax. There is no capital gains for traders. Okay? And what you do here is instead of trying to keep every single property you can, maybe this doesn't fit your investment criteria, but you know it's cheap and you know you can sell it for more, then why not sell it for more? Because the capital events that you create from trading will help you with a next deposit. Paying down debt, doing a refurbishment, doing whatever. You can treat the trading pot as a pot of money that helps you achieve your portfolio growing goals. When I first started out in property, a friend of mine said one of the oldest methods he knows of building a portfolio outside of being royalty is the three, two, one model. For every three properties you buy, you keep two, you sell one. And if you're changing that, you know you can, you can. Every three that you buy, you can sell two and you can keep one. And what that does is it keeps you liquid. The major issue I think a lot of investors have is liquidity issues. Refinance timings slow people down. Refurbishment timing slow people down. So trading and flipping is a really good way to make you nimble and make you profitable. Reduce your reliance on, on expensive mortgages and other kind of costs. So that's my, that's my sales tip to get people involved in looking at the dark side of property. So instead of having a ton of tenants calling you up on a Sunday morning because they got drunk and lost their keys, you can just trade property. It's a lot of fun. So this was actually really good. The guy who did this deal came out to the retreat that we ground, came out in April of this year. And at that retreat he stood up and said, he goes, he's just a portfolio builder. He said, I would only do a trade if it made me a hundred thousand pounds. And then he does this, which made him £100,000. And he's done two or three more, which have made him like 30, 50, 70. And it's getting to a point where if he carries on trading, the trading profit is going to match his income because he's trying to get residual income from his existing assets up to a quarter of a million pounds. He carries on trading, the trading profit is going to match his income return, his yield return and that's really impressive. That how that changes his whole investment strategy going forward is really cool. Make that sound less like a sales pitch. It's not, it's just, he's just very impressive. This is the most common way to trade. So this is finding something on the open market or off market is. And it's to trade tastic, right? So what normally happens here is when you're doing your due dil, some of the best deals we found is we see something at auction and then we start doing our due diligence. We google the full address of the property, we look on property data, we look on on property filter, we look on eig, we look on all of these places and then we start seeing properties that are on the market. You go to right move, you go to Zoopla, you go to the move market for, you know, a rough kind of valuation metric. You do all of these different types of things and then you find a property four doors down that is £50,000 cheaper than the one at auction. You think to yourself, am I what's going on? There is something on the open market £50,000 cheaper than something that's in the auction. Well that tells me instantly that either the auction price is wrong or that property four doors down is supremely cheap. Obviously you do some work and you figure out which side of that scale you fall on. But either that property is really cheap or the property auction isn't going to sell. So you've gone from one lead to two leads. Two opportunities to buy now. And that's what's brilliant about this because by on your journey to do one deal, you trip over another. And not a lot of people are kind of cognizant of this. They're just looking for comparables. And if the numbers match, great. And if the numbers match, okay, not great. But then nobody questions why it's not matching. Is it a pound per square foot issue? Is it a like for like comparable? You know, is the conditions same? What's the opportunity here? Because there is an opportunity. And that's what traders do. They take opportunities and they bring them to the open market and they help investors, developers make money from them. So what trades well to auction? Well, the easy stuff, you know, the burnt out properties, the flood risk properties, insurance, you know, rejected properties, hoarder properties are fantastic. Short lease flats are fantastic. Properties that have got planning permission are great for auction, even if it's just a change of use on the pd they do very, very well. Those types of properties always do well because it's very clear where the value lays, right? If it's just a three bedroom house, that's a nice looking three bedroom house. It's not ideal unless it's, you know, in a perfect HMO area and it's outside. In article four, you know the questions you need to ask yourself as to what the potential is from looking at it here to what we want it to be here, and really identifying those opportunities based on your skill set. Your knowledge of an area, your knowledge of an asset class is so vital if you're looking to access the auction world. So structuring the trade. This is something that not a lot of people are aware of. There are, can't list them all. There are at least two dozen stamp duty exemptions and reductions that are only applicable to property traders. We've mentioned one already, the probate right, in order to get that probate, not pay the stamp duty, you have to buy it. The person had to have lived it there in the last two years before passing away. You cannot spend more than £20,000 off 5% of the property value or whatever it is and you have to be buying it for the purpose of selling it. That's trading. You can't buy a property and claim the stamp duty relief and then not sell it. You can't portfolio it. You have relocation stamp duty relief, you have part exchange stamp duty to relief. Which is why a lot of developers, you know, some of the big ones like Barrett Homes and, and Red Row and people like that, that's why they offer people no stamp duty on the part exchange or to fund your stamp duty on the purchase of their property. Because they're getting your property stamp duty free. So it looks like it's a big value add that they're offering you, but it's, it's a sideways, it's a sideways thing, it's a loss lever. It doesn't cost them anything, it doesn't gain them anything. You have uninhabitable, that's probably the one that's misclaimed on a regular basis. Very regular. Uninhabitable doesn't mean it hasn't got a kitchen or a bathroom. It means it's falling in on itself or it's radioactive or, you know, there's a sinkhole that's opened up underneath it and you actually cannot live there. It's uninhabitable. Not, you know, you can just stick a camper van outside the front and get on with your Life has to be uninhabitable. And there are several others, some that are based on unique examples. Examples. So if you're structuring a trade, you want to make sure that you or you want to identify if there is a stamp duty exemption for you. Right. You can't then hold this, it has to be sold and then structuring it. In smart terms, an EDC is what we call an exchange with delayed completion. So you will make an offer to somebody off market or on the market and you'll exchange immediately. That's powerful. There is nothing more powerful in property than an exchange of contracts. You exchange and then maybe you arrange a 12 week completion that gives you three months right to tidy up, to put it into auction, to run the sale, to do all of those things and all you're really doing at that point is you have your deposit at work, you've exchanged. So maybe it's a 5% deposit, maybe it's a 10% deposit. At this point you're not really factoring in the cost of lending, you're not doing anything like this. It's just an exchange, you're delaying the completion subject to the auction result. Yeah. And you can structure this as a back to back and back to backing also gives you a stamp duty relief. So traders are very, very good at managing and mitigating the, the frictional cost of a transaction. Because if you can manage mitigate the frictional costs, you're increasing your margin over that. That's really important. And this is all only really works if you're using auction either on the in or on the out. And that's essential because you need the guarantee of exchange. How many times you've gone to an estate agent and the estate agents messed you around or you've gone direct to the vendor and the vendors just messed you around and they keep pulling the plug at the 11th hour. Auction gives you that guarantee of exchange. That's super powerful. And if you're doing the trade when I say, you know before I said less is more right on this one, less is more. And I've said here, less is always more. So let's say you buy a property open market that you're planning on trading into auction and you've paid £200,000 for it, you need to put it into auction guided at 150 pounds and reserved at 165,000. Now if everyone is doing their maths correctly, which is probably better than I, we'll that is a 35,000 pound difference between, between what you're in contract for and what you're reserving it for. Now, why is less more? Because if you were willing to pay £200,000 or something, imagine what somebody is willing to pay for it once they see it at 150,000. You create an environment where bidding goes up and up and up and up and it sells for 220, 230, 240, 250. We see it happen all the time. We do it, people in our environment do it. So less is always more. There is a big kind of warning sign here that this strategy has to fit in perfectly with your risk profile. If your risk profile, you know, if you're very trepidatious or you have very low risk tolerance, this is not the way to do things. But if you have a high risk tolerance, you trust your numbers, you trust the process. It's a great way to make very good returns in a very short period of time. Yes. Next we have underwriting. I tend to leave underwriting to the end because most people don't know what underwriting is. It is so much fun to underwrite a property. You have no idea how happy it makes me if I underwrite a property. And what makes us unique as traders is actually as traders, if someone came to us, our property is an auction and said, oh, we'll underwrite it. X. If we're happy with X, we'll underwrite the property. We will let someone underwrite with us as well. So you all would have heard of underwriting in one way, shape or form, right? If you're getting a loan, the your lender or your broker says, oh, it's with the underwriter, right? And what the underwriter doing is they're underwriting the value of your property. They're saying is it worth X? That's what underwriters do. You would have heard it on the radio when you hear the car insurance adverts and you know, all you know, UK car insurance, ui, Lloyds bank, underwrite everything you know. And you would have heard of it, but you won't have heard of it in terms of auctions unless you've read the books or you've watched the YouTube channel, you've done some other stuff with us underwriting. The best example I can give is, let's say a property is listed at £225,000. The reserve is going to be 250. So let's say you make a pre auction offer and you offer them 250 to buy it out immediately, that 250 is rejected. The seller Thinks they can get more, that's fine. So you say, well, actually, why don't I underwrite it at 250? So that means the minimum you get is 250. But every pound it sells for over 250, we will split the difference just for mathematical purposes, 50, 50. So if it sells for £270,000, I will make £10,000 and you will make £10,000. Right. Does that make sense to everybody? So it's underwritten at 250, it sells for 270. The underwriter and the seller split the difference. It's like an overage. Very simple. Now, let's say it sells for 270, but the buyer auction fails to complete. Okay? Happens nowhere near as much as open market, but it does happen. What happens then is the sell reverts back to you as the underwriter at 250. Right? So you still get the property for the price that you want it. If you're making £10,000 or you're winning the property at a price you're comfortable with, there's no lose here. It's only win win. Right. It gets difficult when people get greedy. You can say, well, Jay, how do you get greedy with underwriting? I can tell you, but you have to promise not to do it. Like everyone's promises. Pinky promises from everybody. Perfect. Serena's nodding. I trust Serena. Thank you. Okay, pinky promises. So let's say you underwrite the property at 250. But in your heart you're like, I think this is worth 300. As it is, before I do anything, it's worth 300. So maybe I'll log on and maybe I will bid up against other people. Okay? Because If I pay 270 for it, actually, when I complete, all I'm paying is 260. I'm getting that 50% back, right? So now every pound that's being spent above the 250, you're only paying 50pence of it because you're going to get that rebate. You're getting 50% of that pound back, which means it is now pound for pound, cheaper for you and you alone to pay more than 250 against everybody else. That knocks all competition out the window. Things to focus on. A, when you underwrite, you have to put down a 10% deposit. B, when you purchase at auction, even if you've underwritten, you have to put down a second 10% deposit. So you'd be putting down 25k and then you'd be putting down 27k and you'll be putting down £52,000 in total for 10,000 pound return, technically. All right, that's not bad. That's what, a 20% return and you only have to kind of wait for completion two months. It's not the end of the world. There are some lenders I know who would love to get that kind of return on a regular basis. But that's a very basic way of looking at it. But what generally happens is people get the greedy green eyed monster and instead of bidding up to 70, they bidding up to 310 and they end up winning it at 310. And now you're thinking, wow, well they're going to get 30 grand back, so I'll be paying 280 for it. But now 280 is too much money, right? So you have to, there are, there are ways, you kind of have to look at it to make sure that you're not overpaying. And it's a system that can be abused, which is why auctioneers tend to only underwrite with people that they know are responsible, that have done deals with them before, all these different types of things. Or if you, or if we know the auctioneer and you're looking to underwrite something, we can put the offer forward. We do that for clients a lot as well. So that's underwriting. That's just a cheeky little thing that I thought you guys might like to hear about instead of me just rattling on about what's, what's, how to trade or how to flip or what's good for buying an auction. So now we have the fun bit and we called this don't get fucked at auction. And it may sound like we're saying auction is a place where people get fucked. No, what generally happens is people make mistakes because they're taking action and they're doing things, you know, perfectly legitimately. Everything makes sense. But the auctions include so many blind spots that people are making mistakes that they don't even know that they're making. So the course will give you a complete auction mastery. You will understand the auction process from start to finish, what is expected of you, how to perform best, and how to game the system to get the best out of everything that you're going to be doing at auction 2. We will be covering 90% of the mistakes. Like these are the most common mistakes that people make that buyers make. And they're mainly legal mistakes and financial mistakes, but some of them are process driven mistakes. Right. There was a guy who I spoke with recently he'd registered to bid on a property at an auction and they registered him on the wrong property. Then he went back and said, oh, can you register me on this other property instead? They said they would do it, they didn't do it. That meant that he couldn't bid. Right. And the Property sold for £50,000 less than his maximum bid. So he's lost out not only on the deal, but there was a chance that he could have won it for far less than his maximum bid. Now, in this course, there are ways to make sure that, how to behave, to make sure that you get registered on the right lot, you're able to bid. Your preparation has to be on point. So it's kind of covering off those kind of issues. It also covers off things like bidders bidding against themselves. I was watching an auction two weeks ago and I think there were six bidders. It was an online auction, so you can actually see the bidder number and the bitter thing that comes up. And I was looking at it and bidder five bid, I don't know, 265. And then 30 seconds later, bidder five bid, 267. So that bidder, even looking at the screen, seeing that they were the very last bid, they still bid against themselves. So it's about becoming aware of these things, making sure you have your due diligence done, you've got your AML set up and sorted, you've got the card for them to take the hold so you can register to bid and you don't leave that to the last minute. So all of this information is on the course, it's laid out in bite sized chunks and it runs through the whole process. The idea here is also we'll be sharing the strategies that we use, not just the ones I've given examples of here, but actual case study strategies that we use, clients have used, members of our club have used in order to give you the upper hand over bidders. And that's not just underwriting. I mean, underwriting is a really cool way for that to happen, but that's not the only way you can do it. I think we've got some time for Q and A. I'll leave the link up there. I'm pretty sure Graham will have his own link and be able to pass over to everybody, but I hope people found that valuable.

Yeah, Jay, thanks so much as always. Super valuable eye opening. The market's really interesting for it right now, so timing couldn't be better. Really appreciate you coming up. You know, that's great. So there were some questions, you know, on the, on the first example where the free.

The free.

The 1 plot turn 3 plot 8 fort bought at 814 and then sold in 3 lots for a total of 980. How was this financed? You know, do you know this one?

Yes. So in this instance, it was funded on a bridging product by Roma. So we do a fair bit with Roma. They come out to our retreats as well, you know. And October last year, when we did our first trading retreat, Scott came out and said, well, how do I help more traders or more buyers at auction? He said, we already do bridging. We've got a good bridging product. People use it on a regular basis. We've got good market kind of penetration, it's going well. And then I told him a story of, of this facility that I had in like 2009-2011. It was called a hunter's facility or hunter's license. Basically it was a blank check or close to blank, a blank check that handles banking and basically said, you own these assets, you have this income, we will put a levy over those and then you can draw down, I think it was 75, 80% of the value of those assets. And the beauty of that is you have the arrangement fee and the setup fee and one set of legals, but every transaction you do after that is just the interest rate. You don't have to. Every time you do a deal, you don't have to go and get it valued and do the legals and do this, that and the other again. And Roma brought out the revolving credit facility. That's what they're calling it. And that's essentially what we've got this chap to do who bought this property, he's bought three or four others. He is using their revolving credit facility. It doesn't impact the lending that you have on the property if you've got equity. Basically what they do is they top slice the equity and then let you leverage 70, 65, 70% of the equity that you have across X number of assets. They don't put a floating charge, they don't do anything like that. They don't do anything to upset your lenders, but it's a really smart thing. So he used it for that deal and a couple of others. So if, if you're looking at doing deals and volume and trend being transactional, the revolving credit facility is good. It will work out cheaper than bridging. But also Roma have a, a product that enables you to go to term so you can go from the revolving credit facility to a term exit if you didn't want to trade. It's a really smart product. So that's how he funded that one. Yeah.

Awesome. Yeah, thanks for that. And on the. Could you explain a bit more the capital gains tax? You did but just if you can come back on it, the capital gains tag for trader and the rules and applied for it, when is it, at which point do you have to pay for it? If you holding for too long and things like that.

So there, there are obviously not tax advice, not a tax adviser, not tax specialist. But the property has to be traded, not flipped traded. So trading is an immediate intention. Pardon me, an immediate intention to buy for the sole purpose of selling. Flipping is normally buying improving in some way, shape or form and then selling. Right. So it has to be a straight trade. There is some ambiguity around how long is a trade period. Right. If you know, if it took you two years to trade the property, is it actually a trade? Right. That's where it becomes a little bit opaque. But in real terms, you know, if we're buying something and we're selling it within two, three months, we're not charged capital gains because the nature of the transaction, the nature of business carrying out the transaction isn't a business attracts capital gains, it attracts corporation tax. And obviously if we draw money down income tax. But it's as simple as that. I mean it's probably worthwhile if trading is something that you're looking at not flipping, this has to be just trading. If you're looking at trading, it's worthwhile speaking to your accountant or financial advisor to get some more advice on how to structure your trading vehicle in order to be compliant with that exemption.

I think Christopher, I like the idea of not dealing with tenants anymore and wanted to be a trader. So yeah, quite a few of us and then similar question on stamp duty. So I did. Whilst you were giving the example on the probate and the part exchange, I sort of asked my new best friend Claude for the balance of it and paste things in there. But is there more you can add? Because someone's asking a particular case if I am a property developer and I'm basically building from the ground up, is my development really from stampduty?

So I started reading the chat. Can you.

Can you say that regarding the stampduty relief, if you are a developer, does this relief apply if you sell it to your. And then if you sell it to your investment company, does it apply?

So I mean there is an element of linked transactions Right. So we already know that there are some exemptions. If you own a property in this vehicle and you're the sole owner of that company and you're new to this company, it's considered like a cross company transfer. So there are ways to kind of manage and mitigate that. On the development side, when the developers are offering to pay your stamp duty when you're buying their unit, it's really only on part exchange terms that they do this. And the reason they do that is because they're not paying the stamp duty when they're buying your property. So all they're doing is. It's a sales technique, that's all it is. There's no transfer of benefit here. It just makes you feel like you're getting a good deal because you're not paying stamp duty. But they're not paying stamp duty so it becomes a net zero effect. I don't know because I don't think Barrett Holmes or Red Row or Lyndon or any of those as developers are doing that to do like a connected transfer. I don't think that's the case. I don't know the ruling on that. It's something only really large scale home builders use on a regular basis to be fair. Yeah.

Because if you're a first time buyer or if you don't part exchange all of a sudden the offer is not on the table anymore. Right.

So yeah, I mean it's the first time buyer up until recently. The stamp duty was negligible up to a certain point. But yeah, there's a lot of changes there. Yeah.

Is Jack is asking about the auction Buyers Club? Yeah, I think he went and have a look, made the criteria on the website. Can you tell a bit more about it?

Yeah. So we, we started this off in Covid when. Well, I think two months into Covid because a lot of our clients traditionally would be going to an auction. We'd be advising them on, on what they were buying or what they would be selling. And then our buying clients had to move from being in a room, an environment that they understood with us holding their hand, to just being online. And you know, the consultancy fees for us for a day in the auction room are one thing, but if they just want 30 minutes here and now there, it can become quite expensive. So we put a club together, we invited a bunch of clients to join. It's a six month revolving contract. It's a group of a maximum of 24 people. We meet twice a week on Zoom on a Tuesday and a Thursday morning and we deal Clinic. In fact, obviously it's Thursday today. So this morning we reviewed about 12 properties that are going to auction and gave people advice on those properties, on the investment metrics, on the auctioneer, on what the next steps are. Or we told them, don't be a fucking idiot, this is a terrible property, don't buy under any terms. And we tell them that as well. Which is actually probably saved more money in doing that than anything else. But yes, that's the club. I think it's £500 plus, it's £3,000 plus VAT every six months is essentially the cost of the club. And then we do an in room boardroom once a quarter and basically we charge out for that but just to cover the cost of the room. It's like a, it's a good community day to be fair. And we've been running that now for like five months, five years and two months. It's a big part of everything that we do because as I've mentioned in the examples, those are people that are in the club doing the deals. It's not an educational environment, the Buyers Club, it's an environment for people to scale up their transactions and have ease of access to us to help them trade and buy and sell at auction. If it's something anyone's interested in, just message grill and he can introduce us and then we know that it came through realm. That'll be lovely.

Question on back to back. So could you clarify a little bit on the trade? What do you mean? You know, you add on the screen B2B. So what did you mean by that?

So a back to back is a bit of a unicorn if you're not a trader and you haven't done it before. So back to back is when you arrange your completion date. Let's say it's selling at auction and the completion date is 7th August 2025. If you're. So you bought the property here, this is the top contract, you and your seller, you've traded it into auction, you now have you and your buyer and you need the completion dates to match perfectly for it to complete back to back, right? You and your seller are completing and you and your buyer are completing simultaneously at the same time. The benefit of that is you get something called the stamp duty sub sale tax relief. Now, because you owned the property for less than 30 seconds, you were never able to take beneficial or equitable interest in the asset because essentially the transaction is leapfrogged over you. You have to complete, it's leapfrogged over you. You don't have to pay the stamp duty. As everybody knows, the stamp duty is self certification. You tell your solicitor what to put on that part of the form, but it has to be the same day. If you complete and then your buyer auction completes late the following day, there's no back to back. You have to pay the stamp duty. It can be a bit of a risky strategy. So even if you are crafting the perfect back to back, always factor in the stamp duty. Right. Because if you have to pay it and you're aware you'd have to pay it and the numbers still work, or you don't have to pay it and it's a little bit of the cream on top, which is fantastic.

Awesome. Lee's asking about auction terms, you know, and conditions. You know, how flexible is it? Can you do delayed completion on when the gamblers fell?

So one of the ways, when I said how to structure the flip, right, you're going from auction to open market. One of the best ways to structure a flip in that situation. Generally speaking, flips from auction to open market are properties that have gone unsold. Yeah. So let's say the property didn't sell at auction. You approach the auctioneer post auction and you make an offer. Maybe the price is less, but you're ready to go. But your one condition is you don't want to complete in 28 days. You want six or eight weeks to complete. Right. Because what that enables you to do is it enables you to just get everything lined up even better. And once the property's gone unsold, the vendors are a little bit more flexible. You still have to exchange. It's just negotiating a longer completion if it's a finance, if it's to get the property cleared, whatever the story is, but you want to give yourself that flexibility and it just puts you ahead of the game, especially if you're using finance. If you can have the property emptied and cleared and new marketing pictures taken before the mortgage company is even taking their first monthly payment, then you're ahead of the game. And speed has everything to do with this. So it just helps. Yeah.

Matt's asking, sorry. So someone just asked on this. Could you clarify with the. What do you mean? The exchange commission is based on the auction results.

Auction results. So essentially what I'm saying is you.

Can only renegotiate if you didn't sell in auction and you can, you can have flexibility on terms.

So it's a post auction purchase. So if you're buying pre auction or during the Auction, the terms are pretty much fixed. There is some flexibility pre auction, but post auction there's so much more flexibility because bear in mind the vendor's expectations have been managed, the property has failed to sell. This is a vital point in their transactional process where they just want somebody to come and perform. Now if they have to give an extra four weeks to do that, they're so much more amenable post auction. But obviously you have to negotiate that. You say, I'm making an offer on this property for £250,000 on the condition that I have eight weeks to complete, not 28 days. But you can post auction. You can make those requests. Yeah.

Awesome. Matt is asking. So Matt is doing lots of short lease deals in South London. So would you recommend not extending a lease before putting the property into an auction trade, flipping it in auction?

I mean, Matt will know this. Obviously they've done away with a two year notice. That two year wait is gone. That makes your life so much easier. One of the best ways to add value to a short lease property isn't to extend the lease, it is to start the process of extending the lease. Finding out, submitting the Section 42 notice, getting the return notice, getting a confirmation of what that extension cost is and then putting it into auction. And the reason you do that is because some people don't like buying it because they don't really know what the cost is. Uncertainty unknowns reduce price. Certainty unknowns increase price, which is why a property that has PD or planning permission sells better than the property that doesn't. Because now there is certainty over what can be achieved. So you can just start that ball rolling. Serve the Section 42 notice, put it into auction or wait for the return notice, put it into auction. That, that's just a great way to, you know that that could fit a 3, 2, 1 model very quickly. Right. There'll be somewhere actually my return if I do the lease extension refurb and put it on the open market. You know, this is a property that's in Knightsbridge or Greenwich or whatever, you know that return is going to be higher. But if it's something that's in East Ham or West Ham or somewhere like that, where the return is going to be a little bit more marginal than just get in and out quickly.

Yeah, cool question on recommendation for bridging lenders. So you mentioned Roma. So it was Scott.

Yeah, yeah. So we, we use, we use Roma quite a lot and they're kind of our go to choice for, for the Buyers Club as well. Because, because they're so kind of ingrained in what we're doing. If they're slow or there's a problem, we're able to like jump in and get things moving. It can happen with bridges, even really good bridges. And we work with a broker as well, in case what we're getting somebody to, what someone's buying is outside of the Roma wheelhouse and they just have a third party person to, to that they can recommend to us. But at the moment, pretty much everything goes through Roma. Okay.

You still pay auctions after. Sorry, do you still pay auction fees when you buy after. After the room.

So, yeah, so the, the auction, the auction fee, you know, these are, these are things. So what's not negotiable is the auctioneer will charge you twelve hundred pounds plus vat, for instance. Say something like that. You'll still have to pay that. That's the fee that they, they charge to buyers. Because everything up until that point is free. Accessing the legal pack is free. Going to the viewings is free. All of that stuff calling them up, everything is free. The only thing that you pay them if you win the property is the buyer's fee. Now, if there are fees in the legal pack, you can approach the auctioneer and say, actually the fees are a bit heavy in the package. Would they agree to, instead of 4000, would they agree to 1800? Right. And it's a negotiation point that you can use. And if you're trying to cut the fees out of the pack, asking for a longer completion won't work. Do you almost want to be like, well, if you take these fees out, the legal pack I will complete in two weeks. Right. Because what you're offering is take this noise out and I will give you the speed and certainty and time that you absolutely need. So again, it comes down to finding out what the motivations of the seller are rather than what's ideal for you. Because all of these things, it's a sliding scale between how much you're paying and how much costs there are. And you just, you just have to move those parameters until it fits the price you're happy with.

Awesome. Someone's asking about how do you sort of assess the value of a property? You know, what sort of, where do you go to do like comparables and stuff like that? Yeah.

So, I mean, a lot of what we do, the first step is we go on EIG a central information group and we have look and see a, if the property's been on the market before. But we also have A look and see if anything on that road or within the neighboring roads has been to auction and how that performed. We will also go on to property data because we use that for just a basic due diligence. We mainly buy commercial property, so we have a COSTAR membership so we can look and see all of that data, which is immense. But we start very basically with the full address of the property going on, right? Movement Zoopla and looking for comparable evidence, how long it was on the market for. And we've got this Google extension called Patma or Patmal.

I'll show you a property filter works mate, you know.

And basically it shows you every time there's like a price drop on, on rightmove, it doesn't work, it doesn't like alert you. But if you're looking on there or say I was first listed for X and it was reduced to this or it sold and came back nowhere near what Property filter does. It's kind of like a little, it's just a tiny little side box. So we have a look at that as well.

But yeah, but basically the usual thing of looking for comparables, right, it's like what is close close by and close by inside and condition to what you have. And at least it's taking a view, you know, so I think people expect clicking a button and get the valuation. It doesn't, none of these things really work, you know, so it's a skill you, you get used to the more you do it and you become quite, you know, confident with it just looking at the comparables and taking a view, you know, and, and I think, you know, if you send two rig surveyors to value a property on behalf of your bank, they'll be within 10, 15% of each other, you know, so, so don't waste your time trying to know what this property is worth right now to the nearest pound. It doesn't matter. You know, you're going to buy it with such a margin that if it's, you know, if you buy it for 160, you don't care that it's worth 178 or 180. 88, you know, who cares?

You know, it's, it's. Especially if you're an investor or a flipper, what it's currently worth now is immaterial. It's what you would, it would be worth when you sell it out or you refinance, you know, once you've done works to it that that's the real figure. Yeah.

Yeah, Cool. Let me see. When underwriting you mentioned that you need to pay the 10% deposit, and then you're required to pay another 10% deposit when you exchange.

So this is in the case.

This is in the case of you bidding on the property as well.

Yeah. So if you underwrite the property, all you're paying is the 10% deposit. If you underwrite and do nothing else, you're paying the 10% deposit and the auctioneer's buyer's fee, which, Generally speaking, it's £1,200. Right. If you don't win the property, you get that deposit back as the underwriter, you get the deposit back and you get your uplift. Now, Lee, what you're saying here is if you underwrote it at 250 and then you bid up to 310, you'd have to put down a 25% deposit, £25,000 deposit here and a 31,000 pound deposit here. Right. Because these are two separate contracts. One's an underwriting contract, one's an exchange of contracts. Two very different things. If all you're doing is underwriting, you only need the 1, 1 deposit. If you're underwriting with a view of kicking the bidding up, then it's a different story. Then you'll need the two deposits. But keep it simple. Just underwrite and let the market figure out what it's worth.

Yeah. And then you'll have on top of that the auction fees.

Yeah. Yeah. So if there's anything in the legal pack, you. You can't you that. Those aren't specific to underwriting. That's specific to the asset. So you'd have to evaluate each asset separately.

Underwriting. Just. Just underwriting. Do you have to pay some visa?

No. No. Okay. There's no additional cost to underwriting. Yeah. Yeah.

It's interesting. Some questions around someone trying to be a bit clever. So I'm trading this property, this probate property over here, but I'm trading it to myself. Can I. Can I then save on the stump duty and things like that? So you mentioned about link transactions, and so I think.

I think there's a question around that. It's just the reality is, because we don't do that, I'm not entirely sure how it would play out. Everything we buy, we're selling to an independent third party an arm's length. And, and it works. We've never had any problems. So if you're. And here's the thing. Why would you want to do that? Why don't you just buy it in that end vehicle anyway? Obviously, because you want to retain it so you won't get the stamp duty exemption. Okay, that's fair. But no, I think if party A is buying it and is connected to party B, someone's gonna have to pay stamp duty somewhere along there and. Yeah, I wouldn't complain.

Yeah. And then if you sell it to yourself, you, you have to. The other company needs to. It's not part of this initial trade. So you have to pay the stamp duty over there anyway.

So. Yeah. And. And you're probably going to want it to sell for more to that second company. So it'll be your. Your. Yeah, there's no point doing that.

Yeah. Awesome. Quick then. Last one for Kirin was asking, do you know like the sort of cost from Roma?

Well, in short, the answer is, is no because I know that. I mean the, the bank changes all the time, so it's always moving. But I, I've always found them easy people to talk to. So just like reach out, tell them Jason to say hello. I'm not financially rewarded for, for recommending them.

So they're very. Yeah, no, that's been great. You know, that's been awesome. So there's lots and lots of questions as well. So that was super valuable as always. Always cool spending some time with you. Have you got some like a closing sentiment for. For us.

Took a deep breath there. No. Auctions doubled in size. They are now between 8 to 10% the market. To put that into perspective, in 2019 they were 10, they were 2% of the market. Auctions are huge at the moment. The number of lots that are being sold in and around summer is crazy. The number of deals that, I mean, we're in the process of working on two deals to exchange this week that have gone on sold at auction. So we take our own poison. This is exactly how we operate. Would we have got these two deals where they are now a month ago or in two months time? No chance. They would have sold for too much money. Investors have started to get back into the old habits of going away in summer and not looking at the auctions, which means things are selling cheap or they're not selling at all. But it doesn't mean there isn't tons of stock out there. And you're dealing with motivated selling sellers. These are. People have a, a real time motivation, debt, death, divorce, discretion, all of these different types of distresses they need you to transact. Okay. You have, they have to offer you a discount to do that. But you have to be able to perform and performance speed, understanding your numbers I think that's what I'll leave you with. It's just so important. And think about trading as an option, you know, if that makes you less reliant on debt or it means that your refurbs are cheaper or you have bigger deposits to do bigger deals to take that next day up. That's what flipping and trading can do for you. Just a different way to kind of look at accessing the market and profiting from real estate. Yeah.

Awesome. Really appreciate it. Jay, as always. Thank you for your time. You've been really cool. You know, we've went a little bit over so thanks so much and for everyone. So up until when we got the discourse for. Is it like until next month or something?

Yeah. So it'll turn back into a paid course on the 30th of September. So I mean just register today. It is absolutely free. It takes less than two minutes.

Yeah, yeah, I'll go on it as well. So thanks so much. Really appreciate it as always.

And.

And if you want to check out Jay's YouTube channel, it's full of really good golden nuggets as well. And if you're not. So when you join Property Filter plus, we send you a shipment in the. In the post with Swag and Jay's been really. Jay and Piotr have been really generous to give away their book, so we send you their book as well. And if you're interested in Auction or not. Again, I do believe it's the best book out there for all things to do with due diligence and you know, I don't know anyone that's written it so. So well for that. So for me it's a reference so everyone should, should read it and we get it given us. Given to us, you know, so. So yeah, really good. Really cool from Jay and P. Thanks so much again for, for your time and thank you everyone for joining today. Look for speaking with everyone soon. Thank you. Bye.