💡SSAS Masterclass Part 2: Your 80 Questions Answered with Kevin Whelan

Hello, you fantastic, lovely people. Welcome to the Deal Finders Corner, your weekly property talk show brought to you by Property Filter, hosted by yours truly, Asif Omar from the Property Filter team. We are the UK's highest rated platform for finding deals and we are on a mission to empower our property investors and deal sourcer members to find 1000 deals this year thanks to the Property Filter blueprint. The purpose with your Deal Finders Corner is to give you more and the best of the available resources. Invite expert guests who will share with you the latest and most current strategies, tactics and secrets about what actually works right now in terms of finding and making deals and the reality of systemizing and running a high performance business in property. It is my absolute pleasure to welcome back the one and the only Kevin Wieland, today's Deal Finder Corner. After his recent three hours SaaS masterclass. The feedback was phenomenal, the demand was off the charts. So by very popular request, Kevin is back. We are going to go even deeper. Now, usually Kevin needs no introduction, but if this is your first time, you're in for a treat. He's one of the UK's leading experts on wealth creation and and SAS pensions. An economist, author and the founder of Wealth Builders, Kevin has helped raise hundreds of millions in private finance and build a thriving community of over 5000 members. He is renowned for making complex wealth strategies simple, clear and actionable. And that's exactly what you're going to get today, because this isn't just another talk. This is the SAS Masterclass, Part 2. Your 80 questions answered. Last week's three hour session was supposed to be the full roadmap, but then came flooding. 80 real practical, burning questions. The kind of questions you only think of when you're ready to take action. Kevin looked at them and said, well, we definitely need another session. So today he is here to break down the most popular questions, tackle every challenge and show you exactly how, how to unlock the power of your pension for property. No theory, no fluff, just straight answers to the questions that matter most, delivered by the UK's leading authority. Get ready. This is going to be packed, practical and powerful. So as usual, can we please, please give a massive, massive property filter welcome to Kevin Wheeling. SHOUTS Hands everyone. There we go. We've got the jazz hands out as well. Welcome Kevin. How are you on this fine day?

I'm great, thank you very much and great to be with you and good to be reconnecting with those people who are finding deals using Property Filter and funding deals and continuing the theme of Helping you fund deals interest free, helping you fund deals collaboratively and creatively. And I know we had a couple of tech hiccups, but that's just we were using each other's systems. Perhaps you could help me out and start off with a question or two. We probably won't get to 80, but we certainly can get to a few.

Absolutely. So done a bit of an introduction of yourself already. Is there anything else that you would like to add in the introduction?

No, I think you big me up big style and I'm very grateful for that. And thank you to you. And thank you to my favorite Frenchman too.

Absolutely right. So let's get straight into it. Question number one is what is the main difference between a SIP and a sas? And which one is better for a property investor?

Wow. I mean, if I had a pound in my pocket for every time I get asked that bonus, if I'd be wealthier than I am now. The differences are huge. I've done a video on this called the 10 differences between SIPP and SSAs. But for property investors, let me give you three. The first one is a SIPP. By the way, all pensions are trust funds and you have to know who's the owner to know who's the operator of the trust. And with a sipp, the operator is going to be an insurance company. So they only allow you to do stock market investing or occasionally commercial property. A ssas you can invest in anything. You can invest in property, commercial, commercial to residential. I'll show you how to do residential in a second. So your investment choice is only limited by your own willingness to learn and your own imagination. So number one difference, you are in complete control and you're not told what to do. You choose what to do. Secondly, most pensions are single person vehicle pension for one, a SSAS is up to U plus 10, that's 11. So more often than not there's a benefit in collaborating and bringing people together. Husbands and wives, business partners, life partners, even joint ventures with property partners. So if you imagine that you can collaborate with money, you can put two pots together, three pots together, four pots together, all of a sudden now you've got so much more money. And with that, money gives you two benefits. One, the power of negotiation because you've got cash, large parts of it, a large pots of it rather. Secondly, you can get leverage so you can go to a bank and get 50% on top of what you've got. So let's give an example. Example I gave on the webinar. I think if four People got together with, you know, quarter million pounds on their own, they could only borrow, they could only use 250. You put them together, it's a million. Go to a bank, you get another half a million. So now you've got buying power of 50% more than you've already got. So whatever size of pension you have, you can leverage it by 50%. The third, probably the biggest one of all, actually save the best the last. You can lend 50% of that much larger pot now to yourself. So you underwrite your own deal to yourself or to your company, and you're lending money to your company and that means you can buy residential deals with that money. You can take that money, half of it, lend it to your company. What your company does with that depends on what you do in that company. And if you're doing HMOs, if you're doing dilapidated properties, if you're doing service accommodation, you can do all of those. So hopefully that gives at least three of the differences. And I know 10 don't want to go to all 10, otherwise we'll do an hour just on that. But massive, massive differences. If you're a property owner, a SSAS will almost always, not always, because there's always two sides, will almost always be better than a sipp. If you're trying to expand and grow your property portfolio.

Fantastic. Right? So question number two. Are you allowed to transfer money from other pensions to from different employers into a ssas?

A SSAS is fueled, it's like a vehicle. So a SSAS needs fuel. Where does the fuel come from? Well, it comes from two places mainly. One is moving in money you've already accumulated in pensions. And most people tend to be tired, frustrated, disconnected to their pension because it's only on the stock market. So when they get to move that money, and you can move any kind of money purchase, which means money in a pot. If you imagine you get a statement, the money goes up, the money goes down, you know you're adding to it, you may not be. That's called a money purchase. Pension, money in a pot pension, any money in a pot pension can be moved into a ssas so under your control for you to use for property, whether it's a personal pension, a workplace pension, even a SIP can be moved in. And we've done many, many hundreds of SIP to SaaS transfers. Many, we've done zero SSAs to SIP transfers. So once people move forward and see the power, they don't go backwards. So, yes, any money purchase, pension can be moved in but like any, I suppose, good guide. I'm not giving advice on a phone call or a zoom meeting or any other meeting come to that. If you're in doubt, you should always take professional independent advice. But be mindful that many independent advisors will not encourage your thoughts about SSAs because the recurring income that they are receiving from your money will be lost potentially anyway. And that means they're generally not in favor and don't know much much about property in, in any event. So hopefully that answers that question.

Brilliant. So the next question is, what do we need to look at to ensure I can transfer to a SSAS corporate employee whilst also a director of an LTD property company?

Okay, so this comes to eligibility. Every SSAS is very privileged in terms of its benefits. Not least lending money to your own company, you know, that's just amazing. Can't do that anywhere else in the world. So if you can do that, then the Inland Revenue want to limit it to certain qualifying people. Now you've probably heard the term retail client, so people who are getting advice using traditional financial planning, retail customers. A SSAS is not for a retail customer, SSAS is for a business owner, a corporate customer. So you have to be a director of a limited company to bring a SSAS into life. It's called a sponsorship. You basically have a process where on behalf of many hundreds of business owners, every year we ask the revenue that this company, ABC Property Limited wants to create a SaaS for the benefit of its directors and key people. And here's the details of the company, how long it's been trading, what it's doing, who the directors are, where the money's coming from, what they're planning to do. So they're the four key things that the revenue want to know. Well, we send that to them, create a mini business plan, they approve it, job done. That's why it takes typically four months to do a ssas. So there's a process but you have, if you don't have a limited company, you can't even start. So thinking about creating a limited company, can't start yet, got an llp, can't do it from there, self employed, can't do that. It's got to be a limited company. And ideally you want the limited company sic codes, the standard investment classification codes to be property related. 6, 8, 2 or 9 or 6, 8, 11, whatever, you know, own property, real estate, those sorts of things. So if you're going to do property, you want to make sure you've got a property company, although you can set Up a SSAS with a trading company and add the property company later. So no problem at all with having multiple companies attached to a ssas and we do that a lot.

Fantastic, great in depth. So the next question we've got is having more than one company, an advantage for SaaS purposes could be just hinted.

At it there, that you can have more than one company attached. Which means, let's say you've got a trading company, you're a consultant, an IT consultant, you've got a trading company, you create a SaaS with that because it's long established, the revenue are very comfortable with that. But you want to use the money for property, then you just add your property company either now or later and then you can use the loan, the lending facility to that. So I think there's a huge benefit of having multiple companies unless the only company you've got is a well established property company already. But more often than not we're seeing multiple companies, multiple people, all pooling resources together for maximum benefit. And if you've got a company that's trading and you want to pay in, I mentioned you can pay in from two sources, the old pensions coming in or new contributions. You can make a contribution of up to 60,000 a year. Up to. And any contributions you make, reduce your corporation tax bill. So in a room full of business owners where I'm often speaking and say, who would like to pay less corporation tax and use that corporation tax saved to build your wealth in either your business or your property in some other way, you can appreciate that people kind of like that. So yeah, reduce your corporation tax. If you've got a trading company and use that money to help you build your property wealth.

Fantastic. The next question is, if you have a pot of money earmarked for property investment, is it better to transfer this into a SSAS and lend it back to a limited company for investment?

That's an interesting one. It sort of hints at the thought that should I, if I've got money already in my life, should I put it through another vehicle in order to use it? Well, probably not actually. And let's say someone's got 100 grand with the savings, whether they build them up, they've got them in isis, maybe they got a gift or an inheritance. I wouldn't put that in a pension and go through the process of creating a vehicle, putting the money in, then having to have rules of getting the money out. You're not getting 100% out, you're getting 50% out. If you're lending money to yourself. But you can, you can use the money if your plan is commercial property when you can use 100 of the money or 150 if you get a bank loan on top. If you wanted to do that then you could do that. But I would weigh that up very carefully about well, I've got the money in this example I'm giving 100 grand. Just use the money anyway. Just build your wealth, use the, use either old pensions or, or corporation tax. You don't want to pay as the fuel for your SSAs not existing money where there are no rules really at the moment. Yeah, I'd probably be inclined to say I wouldn't do that. But there might be some situations on a tax reclaim, say somebody's a high rate taxpayer, then the tax benefit of 40% tax relief might tip the balance to have a much bigger pop. So yeah, could be 50, 50, but generally speaking I'd probably say not brilliant.

So the next one is, can you put money into a ssas in order to gain tax benefits of purchasing commercial properties?

Well, commercial property is one of the biggest ways people want to build wealth, not least because it's less noisy than residential. You putting tenants in on Fri leases. So full repairing and insuring leases, they do all the insuring as the term says, they do all the maintenance. They deal with dilapidations, they've got the responsibility, you're the asset owner. As long as you choose a good property and you've got a good tenant, you're getting pretty much as hands free as it can be. Property opportunity. So not surprising then many of our clients will use the value of the pension that's stuck in the stock market going up and down like a yo yo. And they use that to buy assets that they want to own for themselves over the long term, including many business owners who want to buy the premises they're in. So instead of paying rental income to a third party, they pay rental income to themselves and the rental income is deducted off corporation tax as well. So you're getting tax relief, tax free growth and your wealth building for you and your family. It's a triple whammy for good, not a triple whammy for bad. And I'm sure if you ask me an inheritance tax question or that gets asked, I'll give you the triple whammy for bad.

Brilliant. Right, so the next question is, how much activity does the limited company have to show? I have one for more than three months, but it's only funded property training and the odd bit of networking so.

Far, that's a really good question. It's a difficult one. There are no rules. Okay. There's no, you must have done this for this length of time. Inland Revenue are quite relaxed about that. So that would be a company Inland Revenue would be completely comfortable with. So the level of discomfort on why that could be a problem. A relatively young company, you know, anything within the first year is young. Right, because it hasn't submitted accounts yet. So a young company, the problem isn't going to come from HMRC saying, yes, you can have a ssas, it's going to come from where the money is now. So imagine somebody creates a company like this questionnaire, three months, four months ago, six months ago, haven't done too much, they're not showing any corporation tax yet, nothing going on. The problem's going to come if they say they got 100 grand with an insurance company, Aviva, or legal in general or whoever, and they have to send that money. So, you know, that's what happens is the money's in pot, where it is now, in a single com, single person, potential moves and transfers in. They have to do a bit of due diligence to make sure that the individual who. Whose money it is isn't being scammed. And part of that scamming, and that's quite sensible, really, is to establish, well, is there a clear link or an artificial link, one created just for the sas, is there a clear link between this person who's setting up the SAS and the company? And often they're looking for things like evidence of employment contracts, payroll, that sort of a thing. So if you're getting, if you're looking to move money in from a third party, an insurer, there's a good chance they won't move it until that has been established and that's at their discretion. So it's called a discretionary trustee, which means they can say yes or they can say no. And sometimes we've had to fight the discretion if we believe it's a good client, but sometimes they won't do it and say, come back in a year. So that's why you need guidance on SSAs, because where the money comes from is just as important as what you do with it.

Brilliant. So the next one, moving on swiftly is, if you don't have a pension but you have money, is it worth opening a SSAS and putting the money in it?

Well, similar theme to the person who had money separately, we've set up ssses for people with no pensions at all. Their business is their Pension, their properties, their pension. I hear that a lot. And no problem with that, as long as there's going to be healthy contributions. So, you know, dealing with one company, the directors never really got turned on by pensions. They thought, I'm sticking money in a pot, can't touch it till I'm in my mid-50s. Don't like the sound of that. But when they realize SAS can allow them access today so they can build a property portfolio, or tomorrow, well, four or five months time, they get switched onto it. And the contributions to the fuel for the SAS vehicle then doesn't come from old pensions, but comes from new contributions and they get excited by that and then the corporation tax kicks in as well. So the answer to that question is, if you've got a trading company with healthy profit, probably yes. If the question is I don't have any pension and I don't have any money, should I set up a ssas? The answer is no, because it'd be like buying a vehicle and you don't have a driving license and you haven't got any money to put the fuel in the tank. You just wouldn't do it. It wouldn't make sense. And that's part of our assessment when we meet people, is to look at who they are, what they're doing, where the money's coming from, what's their ambition, what's their level of willingness to learn. Because you don't have to be a pensions expert, but you've got to take an interest in your pension because it's yours and it's your families and that's the law. You've got to be willing to be engaged professionally, as in, you're going to look at it regularly, you know, an hour a month or an hour every couple of months. You know, you're not just ignoring it and passing it on to a third party and hoping they're going to do something. So it's all about you.

Fantastic. So the next question is, can you open a SSAS if you have a carpet and flooring business or does it have to be a property business? I think we've kind of touched on it, but.

We did, yeah. Any trading company can do. You can have a company called Wheeling and Dealing or Asif's Architecture, Flooring and whatever, you know, poodle clipping, parlors or us, it doesn't really matter. You can, you can, whatever company you've got. We've got GPS with medical service companies, IT consultants with IT consultant companies, pharmacists, dentists, trading companies, roofers, contractors, Anything and any, any shape of business you can imagine. If that company is established with a view to make profit, the intention is to make profit, ideally making profit, but the intention is the key. Then you can open a SaaS.

Brilliant. So the next one is. I think you've kind of touched on this. Well, can you have More than one SaaS if you have more than one company, or are you constrained to a maximum contribution regardless?

That's like three questions in one. That one, that's the gift. I'll see if that keeps on giving. Right. So can you have more than one sass? You can, but doesn't make any sense to have two sets of costs, really. And I'll come on to costs. I'm sure somebody's going to ask a question about costs and we're very transparent about that because in the end you want any cost to be more than compensated multiple, multiple times over by the return. So we need to be clear on cost. So there'd be no point having two sasses. It wouldn't make any sense, not generally. So multiple sasses, don't think generally it makes sense. Multiple companies. Well, you remember I mentioned you can take the trading company, property company and sort of put them together and attach them to the sas. So that makes that easy. And contributions are always limited by HMRC rules to 60,000 pounds a year per person. It's not per company. It's not up at 60,000 in Asif's architecture and 60,000 and Asif's property company, you can't do that. It's 60,000 max. However, for those people who are ambitious and get the SaaS idea, really get it, really get what it can do. Hopefully you get some questions on what's possible to do, not just what's eligible. Then if you want to build it, you can build it by going back three years. So you can pay in 60 grand and go back to three years ago. What could I paid in, but I didn't. I could top it up and you could top up year two and top up year three. So you can go back three years and if you've got a really, really profitable company and we meet some of those every year, you can put into half a million in any single year and get the corporation tax in the same year. So in other words, put in half a million, you're going to get, you know, 125 grand tax relief. So, you know, lots of reasons why people want to top up when they realize what's possible to do. So let's hope we get to the what can I do? Question soon.

So the next one is how does a shop and an upper work with a SaaS during the phase of commercial and resi split? If a SaaS can't own Rezi, is there a grace period?

Okay, so we're getting into some of the what can we do? What's the art of what's possible in terms of getting a better roi? So let's, let's just deal with the concept first. Why can't you buy residential property in a pension? Now I'm going to explain in a minute. You can through the loan back, but you don't hold it in the pension, you hold it out of the pension, which is usually what people want anyway. But commercial property, we touched on it earlier with, you know, why do people buy commercial property? Fri leases and good solid covenants and returns. But sometimes the value in buying a commercial property might not be about the long term hold, but it might be about development. So you might buy a commercial property like a shop with uppers because you want to split the title and you want to separate it to two units. So you can do that. So the stages of value creation with commercial to residential or shops with uppers, but commercial or residential. First is you can buy in the SSAs, no problem because it's commercial. You can apply for planning and pay for that in the SSAs no problem because that's commercial. You can get to first fix no problem, that's commercial. But as soon as you're getting to fitting of kitchens, toilets and those sorts of things, it becomes what's known as a certificate of habitation. And you can't do it from that point, so you have to exit before it gets to that point. You got no grace period, if that was the question. None. If your pension owns a residential property and the revenue discover that you're going to get a 55% tax charge, which is a lot more tax than you were going to make in profit, I would guess. So you can't do that, which is why you need guidance to do that. But it's possible and so many people do do it. But we have to create the exit strategy before we get anywhere close to the residential part. Similarly with shops and tops as we call it, you know, lower commercial units, generally upper perhaps storage in the past, now you want to turn into resi. Split the title. So you create the. The SAS owns the commercial unit. And you know, you, you own the, the residential unit by funding it in a more conventional way, not necessarily through the pension, although you could do a loan back but not necessarily through the pension. It could be through conventional funding, through, you know, you're the broker that you, you know, like and trust.

Fantastic. And could you just go into a little bit deeper into the loan back you said for residential properties? Because I think quite a few people might be interested in that in here.

Touched on it before and I'll give you some rules on that then. So let's imagine for the sake of an argument then we got a husband and wife team, they got 100 grand each, obviously just making it up. So they put their pensions together with their property company. They've now got 200,000, they've got a SSAS. Four or five months later that money is now available for them to use. Their passion is residential, not commercial. What can they do? Well, the loan facility, or what we call a loan back facility allows you to borrow, lend to your own nimta company up to 50% of the value of that pension pot. So how much was the pension pot? 200. How much can we lend? 100. So we lend ourselves a hundred. Now what we do, that money is as long as it's in keeping with the company. So what does the company do? Well, the SIC codes told us it's a operating real estate. Okay, so we can go ahead and buy a property. So let's say, you know, we buy, we could do a property at auction or we buy a dilapidated. Let's give a dilapidated property as an example. We buy a property that's dilapidated, we couldn't have got a mortgage on it anyway. So we buy it and we buy it in cash. So we bought it for 100 grand and that 100 grand, then the prop, the properties owned by the company, what the SAS has done is made a loan and then when the property's basically been refurbed and ready, it can be refinanced and then the loan we paid back to the pension. So the pension becomes bank of self. You're lending money from yourself and paying back to yourself. So you're keeping the movement of all of that money working for you. Not money leaving your life to third parties. Not that I'm against borrowing money from third parties, of course. That's often a good thing. That's leverage and that's a good thing. But sometimes bridging, and especially in a dilapidated property, couldn't got a mortgage anyway. Bridging can be expensive. This can be bridging to self. Yes, there are some rules. The rules can get quite complex, but the principle is there that you can use the money, lend it to your company, your company can use it for company's purposes and if that's residential, there's no problem with that.

Fantastic, great answer. I think quite a lot of people have got value from that. So moving swiftly on to the next question, here we go. Is there a maximum age limit to set up a ssas?

All right, before I get to that one, I'm just going to add something to the previous one, if that's all right.

That's okay.

I think it will add a bit of clarification for some. There are some residential properties that are actually not residential at all. They're commercial, but they look like residential. What we call them is exempt residential. So not taxable residential, where you get a tax charge, it's exempt. So if you're doing, say you buy an old bed and breakfast and turn it into apartments, that's exempt. If you're buying something, let's say you're buying a large house and converting it into safe accommodation for children or for people who need care or attention. So when you provide accommodation plus care, care home would be a big example, then these things are deemed to be exempt. So you can buy those, you don't need to use the loan back, you can use 100% of your money to do that. So just in case anybody's doing anything to do with care, you know, special tenant types, people who need asylum, need rescuing, need something, you know that you get the idea there's plenty of different flavors of property where that comes in. Then that's possible to use a SSAS to acquire that and use all of your pension money. Let's keep remembering though, one of the real values pension is collaboration, that you can combine your money with others either in the SSAS or outside of the SSAs. So for example, Asif, if you and I were well respected and we liked each other and we both found a deal, I could bring my SAS to the table, you could bring your SAS to the table and we could co fund it so you can create joint ventures or you could be a bank and lend it. If I didn't want to do that deal, but I wanted to lend you money, I could use my pension as a loan vehicle, not to myself, but to you. So you're then getting the benefit of my money and I'm getting the benefit of your expertise and a return on my money. And that's what's known as a third party loan. One of the challenges I guess when you get these number of questions is people can lose track very quickly. And it could fry their brain a bit. It's fried mine. That's what happened to my hair. So, you know, the, the issue is it can get complex. I would say that even in three hours or four hours of learning this stuff, you're not going to know all the answers to all the questions. You just want to find out what questions do you want to know the answers to? What's the clarity you're seeking so that it will help you move your wealth to where you want to get to, both for yourself in terms of an ongoing recurring income and ultimately of course as well to your family. So just wanted to add that point before. Talk about age was the question. Maximum age or minimum age?

We could do both. If you want minimum and maximum, then.

The minimum is 18.

Okay.

So you can add children, or probably not kids that age, but you know, young adults, let's say, into a ssas. And there's some valuable benefits in doing so. I'll probably touch on those if I get a question on inheritance tax and how that can help maximum age. There isn't one. You know, it's really bad intention. So if you've got a pension and you haven't drawn it, in other words, you haven't taken it in terms of an annuity or it's a final salary, you know, one of these pensions from the NHS or that kind of thing, which you can't do that anyway, there, there's really no upper age limit. I've got, I've got a client with several million family money in their sass and the gentleman running the scheme, or the elder statesman of the scheme is in his 70s, mid-70s, actually. And the rest of the family have gone. So we've got upper generation, middle generation and lower generation, all can be in the same scheme, almost like a private family trust fund, all growing completely tax free. So, yeah, don't worry about the age. I don't think I've met anybody that I've spoken to who's too old. And if you do get too old and you don't get it, then don't do it because you won't get it, you won't understand it. The lights are on and no one's at home. And we all know somebody like that in our families or somebody else's family, right, Just you could have a 75 year old as sprightly as anything in the brain and in the body. You can have another 75 year old who's lost it all. Marbles have gone. And they're so protective of themselves. They don't really not open minded to new conversations. But some of your younger subscribers thief might want to look at their parents and see what pensions they've got because it's family money, that's the key here. You can combine different generations and it's very powerful to do that in a way that a conventional pension just can't do it, can it? You know, you can't invite your 18 year old or your 25 year old son or daughter into your pension. If it's with an insurance company, they don't allow it. It's a pension scheme for one, not a pension scheme for more than one. And while 11 is the maximum, most schemes are twos, threes and fours.

Brilliant. That's actually give me a lot of food for thought and thinking about my own family. Quite.

There you go.

People are interested in my family to get into profiting, like how do we get into it? And my uncles, you see, the brothers, maybe this is the answer, isn't it?

Maybe it could be. There's in the end, you know, as entrepreneurs, which I think all property people are, we're creative and ethical entrepreneurs trying to solve the problems of others. Sometimes you can look at the problems not just in a property sense but also in a money sense that if people are genuinely cheesed off, frustrated, disappointed, disconnected to their pensions, you can make them connected not just to you but for a whole family. And I think that's a very powerful thing, which is why I like it. I'm very passionate about it. Not self serving me because there's a commercial value in doing it. If people don't resonate with me on this call, that's absolutely fine by me. I would just like as many people to dig deeper into what a SSAS can do for their family. Wherever you get the help, wherever you get the guidance.

Fantastic. Right, so next question. Are there difficulties or complications in moving from a SaaS to investment deals?

I think that means where, how does the money flow?

Basically?

Yes, yeah, that's a good question, isn't it? Where does that. Because you see when, when people have got their pension, they don't see the movement of money, they don't see the flow of money. There's nothing, it's just I've got money in stocks and shares and I sometimes have a meeting and I talk about what's going on and they say, hang on in there, hope for the best, it will all be all right by the time you retire and there's no movement, there's no flow, there's no energy it's just information. Right, let's. So that's a really good question. Whoever asked it, I applaud you for it. I haven't had that question before. So how the money flows is this A ssas, first of all, begins its life as a trust fund. Like all pensions of trust, you have to create your own bespoke trust deed. Well, we do that, then we open a bank account trust bank account in your family's trust name, a C family trust, Wheeland family trust, whatever it is. I know that wasn't your surname, but you get the point. Doesn't have to be your surname, can be any name. The next thing is, if you're going to hold stock market investments, you need a platform. Well, a platform is just a place to move the shares or buy the shares and then if you've got any other things you want to buy, like go bullying, you need a. You need to have a subscription to a vault. If you're buying crypto, you're going to need a crypto wallet. Let's remove the crypto, let's remove the gold, let's remove the stock market, just for now. And you want to buy property. The money moves from your old pension, assuming you've got old pensions into your SaaS in cash. You've now got a trustee bank account with. Let's do that husband and wife team again, 200 grand in the trustee bank account. They want to buy a property. Well, let's say they want to buy a commercial unit, a barn, and convert it. Say they want to buy a barn, right, convert it into flats. They then appoint a lawyer, as you would do normally. So you, you get somebody do the conveyancing and then the money for the purchase of the barn, let's say it was 150 grand. They would buy the barn with that money in the same way as you buy any property and that property would be conveyanced into the SSAs, so the SSAs would own it in that example. So very simply, then, the money's flowed from your old pension into cash, from cash into the lawyer's hands. The lawyer sends the money to the people who own it and then you get to own the property deeds in the name of your family's trust fund. Simple. So it's like every other flow of money, but you're in control of it. Now, you do need an administrator to do this work because it's not the domain of most people to be pensions experts. If you are a pensions expert or you're an actuary or an accountant for Example. And you really love detail. We could show you how you could do it yourself. But generally speaking, 99% of the clients we serve, somebody else is doing the administration, somebody else is doing the reporting to the revenue of your transaction. Somebody else is involved, and they're called an administrator. So having an administrator is like having a bookkeeper for your pension. So you want somebody to keep the money safe and to move the money safely, because if there was any danger that you touched the money it got in your personal life, then this is where that 55% tax charge comes in. So keep yourself safe and an administrator will do that for you. And there are plenty of those out there.

Fantastic. So next one is, we've already touched on it. Maybe you can expand on it. Can you use a SSAS to purchase a resi for a flip?

Yeah, I touched on it. With the loan back, if it's a. So first of all, we've got to determine what do we mean by resi? What is it? We look at the property and say, right, okay, is this exempt residential or taxable residential? Right. Let's say it's a house, you know, and you want to. But it's a bit tired and you want to do it. Add a little bit, add an extra room to it and. And flip it. So we'll use that as an example. If that's okay, then the only way you can do that, because that would be taxable residential, because it's a house. And a house that you could live in or put your kids in and they could stay there. That's pretty much what the revenue don't want you to do, because they're giving you tax relief with that money and any growth is tax free. So they don't want to do that on residential property. So if this is taxable residential, the only way to do it is to do the loan back. Remember the 50%. So if your pot is big enough, you lend 50% of that pot to your limited company. Your limited company then has to buy it. Now, here's where it gets a little bit more complicated. The value of the loan, in this case a hundred thousand, has got to be, by law, HMRC rules, secured by waiver. First legal charge, not an equity charge, not a second charge, not a hope for the best. And maybe one day I'll give you a charge, not a pg. No personal guarantees allowed. Has to be a first charge. And that often catches those with smaller pots out. Because if you don't have a big enough pot to buy the property outright or provide some Other form of security for another property can be owned by anybody, could be owned by you, could be owned by parents, could be owned by siblings, you know, it could be owned by somebody, you know in a network group, you know, because lots of people connect and collaborate. So this creativity comes out of people with sas. But you have to find that first charge. If you can't find the first charge, you can't do the loan. So these are the sorts of questions you've got to look at. Is it exempt or taxable? How much is the maximum loan back? Assuming you haven't had a loan back or you haven't got one out already? And what's the security on the loan?

Okay, so my question to that would be, so if it was a first charge, does that mean that two people could not loan on the same deal unless they combine their sass?

Well, I'm not sure what you mean by two people. So in this example, a husband and wife are together, so they don't need a first charge each because they're part of the same pension. So what did you mean by two people?

So let's say I was raising finance and I have two circles of friends. I have one circle of friend A and I have friend B. Completely different. Both want to lend me money for one specific deal, but obviously both of them can't have first charge. So is that the case that the only way that can happen is either they combine their sasses together or it's just not allowed that they can have two separate people to invest in one deal using their sasses?

I think there's, there's a danger in the way you framed a question, so forgive me for that.

That's okay.

Is that's not clear who owns what. I'm only giving the example in the case I've given of your own control. So with your own pension, you can't use it as a deposit. You couldn't take 100 grand to buy 400 grand property because you need first charge. Now, lending money from other people, borrowing money from other people is a completely different set of rules. So I'm just going to stick with your pension, your part. What can you do or cannot do? Okay, if you want to ask me a question, how do you collaborate with others? I could answer that, but it would be a completely different answer to the one I've just given. See what I mean? It gets complex, doesn't it? But you have to understand whose money is it? So give me a different scenario and I'll give you a different answer.

We'll move on to the next question because we've got quite a few because we could be here for a while. So the next question is can we use a SSAS to purchase a resi property to convert to HMO to use for supported housing or professional tenants? That is a question I had in my head when you were talking about it before as well.

Yeah, I think I gave that answer in terms of similar questions with similar themes. Right. You've got to look at what does the property look like today. Is it commercial today or is it residential today? If it's residential today, how soon afterwards is the purpose going to be exempt? So commercial professional tenants is never going to BE Commercial Student HMOs Professional High End HMOs High End Commercial co living never, ever, ever going to be commercial ever. Always going to be residential. So you could, you can't really do that unless you're buying it outright with a loan back if you're buying. I gave the example of a house for children's home, correct? Yeah, you can buy that and we got clients who've done that. So you know, you can use all of your pension to buy a property that looks residential today, but the purpose of it is to turn it into children's home. I think whenever you get shades of gray, the key thing is not to take answers. You get on a podcast or a webinar or a Facebook Live, you need to get guidance. And I would say probably, maybe at the end we give people an opportunity to connect. And so while we have a limited amount of time today to answer questions and people have got other questions, I don't know how you want to field those. But we're here permanently, you know, we're here forever. So when we're not just here for an hour, an hour and a half, if you've got questions, whether they're deeply personal or you want to ask them just in your own time, you can do that. And I'm sure we'll give people a way to be able to answer question and, and we always give free time. Right. There's no cost for, for a, for time spent because we know there's complexity and we know you're not going to get it in some cases first time around. It mostly takes people about a month, you know, of questions and answers going backwards and forwards two or three times before they really get it. Unless there's just a no brainer. Day one I found this deal. I want to buy this, this old railway station is because our police station has become available or a Church has become available, I want to buy it and turn into flats. I want it now. Go. Otherwise, if you've got a longer gestation period of a deal, take your time and we'll spend as much time with you as you need to get clarity. Because with clarity of what you can do, whether your pensions can be moved, whether your company's long enough established. With clarity comes decision making. When you're not clear, you don't do anything because you can't do anything, because you don't know enough to know whether you. Whether it's possible. So take your time with us and get clear and we'll give you the clarity and tell you the truth always. And if SSAS isn't right for you, we'll tell you. And if we don't think SSAS is right for you right now, we'll tell you. But for many people, they're ready in terms of what they're trying to do. They just don't know enough to get clear.

Fantastic. So have you still got a little bit of time? Because I think we've got the final few questions.

I'm here for as long as you need.

Perfect. Let's crack through it then. So. To invest a significant amount of my SAS funds into crypto, what constraints am I likely to encounter, eg, from professional trustees?

Okay, professional trustees or administrators. They're an interesting bunch because some of them just do administration and carry out your instructions within the law, and others have a very strong view about what the law might do in the future. And that's their business. Right. They can, like a lender. You know, some lenders will buy, underwrite you and give you the loan you want. Others will say no. So you have to understand that. And in the world of sas, we know how all of these operators work because we're a national broker of sas. We're an educator and a guide on SAS rather than the administrator. So we understand what the administrators do want to. What do most of them do? Well, most of them won't do crypto at all. They just think it's too dangerous. So they just rather err on the side of what if the revenue somehow later say, you know, crypto is a taxable thing and they sort the tax out and they don't want to do it. Others will limit you to 10% of the value. So we've got a hundred thousand, ten thousand. And probably just from a common sense viewpoint, really. So I'd say we have got somebody who's got a substantial amount, a lot more than 10 in crypto, but they teach crypto. So we looked at that and we knew they, that's their business, their business descriptor. It's not a hobby, it's not a. A fomo, it's not a. I might do it, it's an opportunity, but I'm not sure and I'm learning. If someone's an expert, there's not going to be a problem. But it'd be a narrow list of administrators, Otherwise it's probably 10. And we do like to see, well, who are you learning this from? Who's teaching you? Because it's not easy, because you can't. Bit like gold. You can hold gold bullion, but you can't hold gold coins or Krugerrands. So you've got to hold it in a special way to make sure you can't take the gold home and, you know, stroke it and enjoy the luster in the light when you're having a bath. You can't do that. It's got to stay in a bonded vault. Crypto is the same. Not in a vault, but it's got to stay in a, in a wallet. And we've got to know where the wallet is so that you can't just take it away and bugger off to Barbados with it, if you see what I mean.

Brilliant. So the next question we've got is about children. So can I add my children's pension to combine to my sas?

Well, children generally don't have pensions, but can you add children to a SaaS? Well, I mentioned that at 18. Yes, you can. And there's a, there's there's a kind of a value in that. What one is a more generic one, which I love, which is the, the fact that if you're remembering that the SSAS is in fact the best intergenerational trust fund. That sounds complicated, isn't it? But it's not big words. Yeah. It's a trust fund for a whole family. It's a tax free place for a whole family. And if you can find a tax free place for a whole family that you can meet, you can talk, you can engage, then you start to get the whole family thinking about the wealth of the family, not just today, but for the future. Because those of us who are building property or building businesses or building assets, we need to reflect on something. And that something is this, that if you're building solid assets, then those assets will outlive you and the income that flows from those assets will outlive you. So you need an exit strategy, you need A plan for the value of these assets and the income from the assets after you're gone. What better place to teach the next generation than in a trust fund that they can engage with now, either with money or with your money, you know, where they can learn. They can be taught either by you or by us. And we often teach younger generation. For some reason, the younger generation seem to prefer external teachers than their moms and dads. Go figure. Anyway, the real benefit coming in April 2027, in case your subscribers don't know, all pensions are going to be be counted in the state for inheritance tax purposes. Now that's the first time that's ever happened and that's going to be devastating news for many people who built up big pensions like me and others. But a SSAS can help because in a conventional pension, you remember it's a pension scheme for one. So if you die, that's your estate, but in a SaaS, it's a pension scheme for many. If you imagine a husband and wife and a number of grown up children, then you've almost got layers. Yeah. So with sas, and only with sas, not with sip, only with sas, there's a process of cascading money down the generations, which means you gradually takes time. But inheritance tax planning is all about time. The longer you plan, the less inheritance tax you're going to pay. You cascade money down the next bloodline and that's a process that is going to be extraordinarily valuable come April 2027. If you've got a big pension and you or you've got any pension and you don't want that to be added to your estate and subject to inheritance tax or potential inheritance tax, which is at 40%. So if you've got a decent pension pot, do you want to see that gone when you die or do you want to be able to gradually move that now? The second benefit, by the way. And again, that will take a bit of wrestling with the heads of people in the room. If you imagine or remember, you can do a loan back. And if you do a loan back and you've loaned money out to your company and you set up a property company with your children as beneficiaries or not beneficiary shareholders rather. And there are pros and cons of that, of course, so I'm not saying what's exactly right, but just imagine it though, and you own property and your children are the shareholders or the major shareholders, then you're building wealth in their name from money that's currently in your Name. See what I'm saying? So you can start to bring genuine creativity to bear to minimize inheritance tax on something that's coming in 27. So I would say probably for everyone, take stock of where you are, because inheritance tax is a very. It's the most hated tax in the country and it's a very painful one. 40%. And if somebody dies after they've received it, it'd be taxed at 40% again. So you've got to be very careful and willing to understand the skills in minimizing inheritance tax. Now, that tends not to be a feature of someone, say, your age, I see, but definitely my age, you know, that's something you're going to pay attention to. So creating proper structures to minimise your inheritance tax with pensions you've already got is a good thing. So take stock of the pensions you've got, and if they're in your name, which they will be, and you want to minimise the inheritance tax, then please get in touch, because over the course of the next 18 months and the run into April 27 and then beyond that, because, you know, most people, we'd expect to live a long and healthy life, but, you know, nobody knows when their birth certificate expires. Nobody knows that. So you should plan. And the other thing is, which is scary for me anyway, the job of paying this tax on your pensions falls to the executives of your will. Have you made a will? If you haven't, scary, that means your pensions could be in difficulty also, you know, it's just not good to let the courts decide what happens to your wealth. So make a will. Anybody who we work with on sas, we do their will for them. We just want them to have a will. At the same time is creating a trust fund. You need a will to go alongside that, because you've got to appoint executors who are going to do that. If you have made a will, who are the executors? I talked to somebody recently and they said my executor was my brother, and my brother lives in America now. No way can he administer, pay the tax from America. You can't do it. You have to have people who know something, are organized, are responsible, are willing to act, because it can take 12 to 212 months to 2 years to be an executor, unpaid. And if you get it wrong in any way, shape or form, you are personally liable. So you've got to be very careful with the Department of Executives. So we're going to be creating guides for direct, not directors that's for sas, but guides to executives and to create a service to help executors understand that they can appoint a professional to help them discharge that liability, to make sure inheritance tax is as low as possible and collected and paid. It's our job to teach the families how to minimize the inheritance tax. The executors are stuck in the time warp, aren't they? They're dealing with death, so they've got to deal with the estate as it is. So, you know, we're going to try and help those people who've got estates and those people who are executors to understand a bit more about this, because this isn't something you can ignore. You can't stick this in a drawer and hope inheritance tax is going to go away in your pension. You've got to take action. If you. Unless you like the tax man more than you like your kids, then that's fine. But generally speaking, I find people want to know more about this. So do connect with us if you want to know more.

Fantastic. Right, the next one we've got here is. Oh, same on the children again. What if your children are in your sas, would it be still liable for inheriting tax? So we've talked about.

I've just done that one, I think. I think. Yeah. I refer the honorable gentleman to the answer I gave earlier.

Fantastic. The next one is, is there a limit on ear marking, like gifting, where you need to. Need to live for seven years after.

Yeah. Earmarking is not gifting. Earmarking is reallocating. So gifting. Okay, we're in heritage tax country. Again, gifting is the process of transferring money from your estate to somebody else's while you're alive, not when you're dead. And the maximum gifting? Well, there's some exempt gifts, which is a maximum of three grand. Teeny tiny, right? Three grand, nothing. But every, everything over above that up to 325 grand. So between 3 and 325 is known as a potentially exempt transfer, or a pet for short. Which means the gift essentially is made and once you've lived seven years, the gift disappears. Okay. But up until that point, the gifts can be added back to your estate. So even if you've gifted, could still get caught in the inheritance tax. And what you cannot do is you cannot do something called a gift with reservation, which means, I tell you what I do. I see, if I'm going to give my house to my kids and then I'm going to live in it rent free. Can't do that, it's called a gift with reservation. If you enjoy the benefit, it's not deemed to be a gift at all. So any kind of gifting needs careful understanding. Careful, careful, careful documentation. But most of all, careful understanding of how, why am I going to do this gift and will it work? Because for most people the gifting your money's leaving your life well, secure your own oxygen mask first. So if you're not sure whether you should make a gift, then have a chat with us. We'll look at your inheritance tax situation and look at your wealth situation. But if you've got a healthy income and you can afford to give the gifts, that's absolutely fine. But you have to document them very carefully because how are the executors going to find out the gifts you make? Because they have to add those gifts back into the estate on your death. So it's very important you document things in a certain way. So I hope that answers that question.

Fantastic. And I think that is the end of the questions on the presentation and we're on the find out more bit of the section. But before we go into that, there's always one question I ask. Everybody that we interview comes on as a guest and that is how can you help our wonderful community members? And how can our wonderful community members help you?

Great question, Asif. Well, let's turn it around first. How can we help? Well, I've said our key point for everybody's clarity. So if you've got questions, honestly, we're genuinely willing to spend time with you to give you clarity. Because with Clarity, most people can either do something themselves and that's great or they need to get some help. And if we spend good time with you, give you clarity and you need some help, we can either help you or refer you to somebody else. Just as we don't do property software. But we would definitely say if you're looking on the finding, you know, use Property Filter because. And we give our members, you know, like you offered us, you know, a free, free period of membership. So we give everybody who's a Property Filter member free time. But if SSAS is a good fit for you, we give you 250 pound discount, cost a couple of thousand pounds typically to do a ssas. So it's a reasonable discount. But nonetheless, how we can help you is to bring clarity to your thinking and we take our time. We're not pushing anything, as I said, takes people sometimes a month or two and longest we've ever had is a year where they wrestled with some complexities. And on inheritance tax you probably need at least another month to get your head around it. So probably a couple of months and then you should know enough to be able to make a decision whether you're okay, whether you can make a tweak for yourself or whether you need some help. So that's how I can help you. How you can help me? Well, I think one is just be open minded and being willing to ask questions. Two is, as you were saying, Asif, think about being that ethical entrepreneur. Find other people who might need help up generation family members, people with limited companies who don't know about SAS because there's millions and millions and millions of pensions but only 50,000 people have got sassas. And you know, we know that this is complicated, but it's not too difficult. Like property is complicated, isn't it? For most employees, what are you doing? Property sounds complicated, but it isn't. When you get your head and you're educated well, you get in a trusted environment, a trusted community and those who want to help us. If you are a host or you're a good influencer, then you know, we can teach you how you could spread this word a bit more so the message gets out because the key thing for us is more people who are eligible business owners, property, business owners need to hear this and if you can help us in some way, we'd be enormously grateful.

Fantastic. So I've already shared the screen where it says about the property filter resources on your website. So hopefully people have scanned there. There's also here, here you go as well is unlock a call as well with wealthbuilders.co.uk property filters. So if you are interested in speaking to Kevin, please scan that. And then finally we've got here, scan me as well, which is another thing. Have you got any final remarks, Kevin?

Yeah. So whatever kind of technology you use, we had obviously we had some tech issues. Technology can sometimes fail us and that's okay. But we're human after all. So however you like to communicate, whether you like to read things, watch things or listen to things, we'll send you the right information. Whether you like QR codes or don't like QR codes. If you don't like that, just go to wealthbuilders.co.uk and you can send a message to helloealthbuilders.co.uk if you want to do that or connect with me on LinkedIn and I can answer any questions personally. If you get the free resources, my team will look after you, if you want to speak to me, you've got an inheritance tax issue. Anything you think is complicated, just reach out to me and I'll, I'll have a virtual coffee with you to try and help you get that clarity that I keep mentioning. And that's really important. But I love working with Property Filter. We love working with, with you guys because we're both at the creative end of life and both outstanding in our own fields. And I suppose like Property Filter, you, you, you start with it, but you, you need to, you need to keep going, don't you? Because we're like any software, it's not always as easy to, to manage everything in the first five minutes. So you're great at support, we're great at support and we just want to be around, irrespective of whether we've answered your question in this last sort of 60, 90 minutes, whatever it is, we're here for the long term, so whenever you've got a question, just reach out.

Fantastic. And I think that's a great way to wrap up today's Deal Finders Corner. So everyone, let's give a massive thank you to Kevin. What an incredible brain and we're so fortunate to have you share your expertise with us today. Absolutely amazing. I'm sure so many people have got value to our amazing community, as we've mentioned. Do not miss this opportunity. Make sure you connect with Kevin and most importantly, take advantage of the exclusive Wealth Builders offer available only to Property Filter members. You can find all the details waiting for you inside our community under provider discount and I think the links have also been posted in the chat box. But before we go, let's talk about what's coming up next week on the Deal Finders Corner, we've got the rather fabulous Josh Munt from Insurance Desk joining us. Josh will be revealing the critical insurance mistakes that are costing UK property investors thousands every year. With over 20 years of experience handling complex property insurance, Josh has the insider knowledge that could save you not just one deal, but your entire portfolio from disaster. Trust me, it is one that you do not want to miss. But for now, there is all that's left to say is the usual. Visit propertyfilter.co.uk log onto your property Filter account, check out the deal blueprint, define your gold mine area, engage with motivated sellers, assess properties in seconds, load your pipeline and make deals, have an endless supply of deals, join the top 1% and become a high achiever deal finder. So that's me, Asif from Property Filter, looking forward to seeing you all again next week. But in the meantime, go and grab them deals. Catch you soon, folks. Thanks again.

Bye. Bye.