Barbecue Nation: 350 Hot-Off-the-Grill | Fred Thompson | Talks at Google

Barbecue Nation.

It's a culinary mosaic of what 14 million Americans do most when it comes to cooking. Making Dinner at the Grill. Author Fred Thompson has searched across the US For America's best backyard cooks and their favorite recipes. And he's compiled 350 recipes that are easy to recreate in anybody's backyard. Barbecue Nation reflects America's ever changing populations with flavor. Flavors of Cuba from South Florida, Brooklyn born Jamaican jerk. I knew a Brooklyn born Jamaican jerk one time. Anyway, Taste of Vietnam from the coast of Texas, as well as the country's regional bounties including grilled salmon from Pacific Northwest, brats from the Midwest and grilled catfish from the Mississippi Delta. In the words of one writer, where flame meets meat, you'll find Fred. And today you're going to find Fred in hemisphere signing books and dishing up his chipotle charred pork tenders with black bean salsa. I'll remind you to use the mics again for your questions for the Q and A. Please join me in welcoming Fred Thompson to Google New York.

Thank you. Appreciate it. Hi folks. Obviously I'm not from around here. I do tell people occasionally I'm from Southern Manhattan and they kind of go, really? I do divide my time, or used to divide my time between here and North Carolina. So there's a couple of things that I may say that you sort of need to know. If I use the phrase fixing to, that means I'm going to start or you're going to start. Boil is B O I L, foil is F O I L and oil is O I L. And after that, you know, we'll get into weird Southern sayings and stuff as we go along. And I'm going to drive the audio guy crazy because I'm not one of these that likes for your questions to come at the end. I assume all of you graduated the first grade, right? Okay, so. And I react really well to being yelled at. So if you have a question as we go along, you know, just speak up and let's go ahead and take care of that question rather than you forget it or get tangled or, you know, I'm Southern. I'm going to go on a tangent, folks. I mean, you know, just assume that that's going to happen. How many of you plan to cook something on the grill this weekend? How about tonight? That's even better. How many of you live in Manhattan and don't have a grill? How many of you have a fire escape? Gracious homes. It's a little Smokey Joe gas. Little cylinder, works great on gas. It works great on fire escape. Some of the recipes in this book were actually tested on my illegal fire escape grill. This book was kind of. It was one of the most frustrating books I've ever written, and it was also probably the most fun book I have written. Frustrating in trying to find some of these folks. Frustrating in that weather played a huge impact on what happened here. I was scheduled to be in New Orleans to talk to three different people in New Orleans the week of Katrina. I got run out of South Texas by Rita. I've been run out of Florida by Ophelia and Rita as it made its first pass through. And we were going to do some rooftop grilling here in Manhattan one weekend, and we got 8 inches of rain between Friday and Saturday. So it was kind of. For a while, it was like if you needed a natural disaster. So you scheduled some kind of meeting with me, and I could just about guarantee it. I broke a few droughts in some areas, too, but it was fun. It was fun trying to find these people. Some of them are friends. Some of them are friends of friends. A lot of them. I went by a fire station. Firemen always know where food is. They always know, either because they've gone to put somebody's fire out on their deck or their kitchen, but they just seem to know where good food is. The other people that seem to know where good food is. Is anybody Baptist? Anybody got any relationship to Southern baptism here? You do? Okay, you will understand this question. Southern Baptist preachers know where the best food in any given community is because they really like to get invited to dinner. And so they. They became a great resource for me. And that's sort of what I did, is I got myself invited to dinner. And some of it was a lot of fun. There was a group of folks that I met with in Bahalia, Mississippi, where the entire town showed up. And the entire town showed up with their special whatever. And a lot of those recipes are in the book. Everything from the mayor's chocolate pie to one of the ladies cross crawfish appetizers to what was the main event, which was a filet mignon that had been marinated in honey and a couple other things and then topped with a goat cheese. I thought that was pretty fast for a town that probably would fit in this room. We had a great time doing it. The book, I think, will work for anybody in any situation. It is about people like you. There's a few professional chefs in there, but I was very, very cautious about it because what I wanted was recipes that Would work under any set of circumstances, just about on any piece of equipment. You don't have to go out and buy a $34,000 smoker like these guys use for Memphis and May to create any recipe that's in this book. You can pretty much do it on charcoal or gas and on just about any size grill that you want or that you would need. So the recipes are very, very straightforward. Very. But being straightforward, they're also interesting. They are what these people are proud of. And that was really one of the keys, was to try to find folks that when they crank their grill up, all the neighbors wanted to get invited to dinner. And that's what basically this collection of recipes is about. That, I guess, that you guys would like to talk about grilling and all that kind of stuff. And before anybody else asked me this question, charcoal or gas? How many of you are charcoal freaks? Would you ever cook on a gas grill? This one over there. No way. Gas. Don't know or don't care. The gas grills today are a lot better than they ever have been. And the recipes in this book were tested both on charcoal and gas. I think you can go either way. Fifteen years ago, I wouldn't have thought of doing anything but charcoal. You know, it's just kind of one of those manly things. We have to play with fire and we want to build it and all that kind of mess. But it as. As my time got more precious, I broke down and bought a gas grill. And what I find that I do is I use the gas grill more during the week than I do on the weekends. And I tend to use the charcoal on the weekends, or I'll tend to do the things that take longer on the weekends, and they tend to be better on charcoal. So if you're going to go out, if somebody tried to pin me down and say, do you want me to buy a gas grill or a charcoal grill? I'm probably not going to tell you. I'm probably going to say eventually. I think if you really enjoy grilling and you really enjoy the flavors that you get from a grill, you're probably going to want both. I tend to do almost all fish and shellfish on a gas grill because I can handle the temperatures a lot better. It's a little more instantaneous. One of the joys, I think, about living in Manhattan is most everybody cooks on gas, unless you're the Food Network in their old studios downtown where they had to do electric. And gas is a little more instantaneous, and it's a little easier to control which, you need that with fish. That doesn't mean that you can't cook fish on a charcoal grill, but it's just simpler. And a lot of folks, how many of you cook fish on a grill? How many of you are scared to death to even try that? You know what? You're honest. That is a. I do classes on just grilling fish. I'm going to give you one quick, easy tip, and y' all are going to look at me like I've lost my mind. But remember, I'm from the South. You can completely grill any kind of fish by doing one thing. Buy you a jar of mayonnaise, brush the mayonnaise all over the piece of fish, and throw it on the grill. What happens? You have oil in the mayonnaise. You have a natural lubricant that's going on. That fish will not stick. If it does, I think they, you know, they know by email address. You can email me and yell at me. That's what I call the complete idiot's absolute foolproof method of grilling fish. And fish on the grill is just one of these great treats. We think of barbecue in a lot of ways of being pork or ribs or the process of barbecuing, cooking a steak or pork chop. But fish and flame is just absolutely wonderful together. And I bet most. A lot of you order grilled fish when you go out to dinner. And it's something you don't do at home because you're a little about it. But you'll find a whole chapter of fish and shellfish stuff in the book. The mayonnaise trick is not in there, I don't think. I think it's in another book that I wrote, but it's okay. So you get a freebie on that one. But it really does work. And you can put any kind of seasonings that you want to in the mayonnaise and go from there. I guess we should define barbecue. I have taken a lot of flack in the south over the name of this book, because south of the grits line, and the grits line is somewhere around Kentucky, Southern Maryland, kind of that area. Although y' all have grits, you just call it polenta. It's. And to tell you the truth, I make grits out of what's called polenta. Because if I buy grits at Balducci's, it's like five times the price that it is in the South. Barbecue is a noun. Very much a noun. It is something we eat. It is that chopped pork. It is a Rib, it's brisket. It's the food itself versus the rest of the country. To barbecue is more of a verb. And Taunton and I had. Taunton Press is the publisher of this book. We had some interesting and lively discussions about this. They won. And to tell you the truth, they were right. So, you know, every now and then, just the author needs to shut up and listen. But anyway, it's been a source of amusement to some Southern writers, some friends of mine. So when we think. When you look at this and you think of barbecue, I don't want you to think of. This is all like you would go to Blue Smoke and eat barbecue. It really is. It's a vast thing. There are recipes in there to teach you how to make North Carolina style barbecue, but there's also recipes in there to give you a unique touch on how to grill a hot dog. Some of y' all are young enough that you'll understand this. This group of college students I ran into in Birmingham, Alabama, they were all kind of getting X number of dollars from parents for food, but they really wanted to spend more money on itunes. So what they would do is they would take their hot dogs and they would marinate them because that made them more special. So they would eat hot dogs like it was filet mignon and have all these special spices and stuff in them. And they saved money and, you know, got more stuff on their ipod. Which brings me to another thing. I will be very grateful to the point of probably cooking you a dinner if you can tell me how to get my name on the first page so that I'm not confused with this other Fred Thompson, who has the exact same initials that I have that may or may not be running for president. I really like the way he dodged that bullet on Leno the other night. That's a big issue for me. I would really appreciate some help with that. And the other thing that might get you some. Some free cooking is to tell me how to get websites so that they show up in a Google search and they're not in those first maybe five or six pages, because I have no clue what you guys do. I have no understanding of the magic of Google. You type stuff in and all of a sudden, in two seconds, there's more things that I could ever think about or ever want to know. But, boy, am I dependent on Google. And so help. Help this, you know, older guy who doesn't understand. You know, my daughter laughs at me. She's 23, and now she thinks she's out of touch with technology. So, geez. Anyway, so that offer's on the table for, you know, whoever wants to take me up on that. What kind of things do you have trouble with on the grill? What kind of things do you want to know about on the grill? What kind of things do you want to to know about this book? What kind of things do you want to know about me and how long I've been doing this? I can tell you Since I was 4 years old, I've been around whole hogs. We do things called pig pickings. I think around here sometimes they get called pig pullings or something. By the way, there's no such thing as pulled pork in North Carolina. It's chopped. So if you're in North Carolina, and I know a lot of you will be on 95, you'll be going to Florida at some point. And we have a very good highway patrol system through the state of North Carolina. So you need to be very, very careful through there. Don't go to a barbecue joint and ask for pulled pork because they're going to go, oh, they're not from around here. And there's no telling what you may get, truly. So anyway, tell me some things that. That you kind of want to know. And remember, we must go to the microphone. Yes, sir. I feel like we're in a university.

You did a big debate this weekend when we were grilling that you have to wait 10 or 15 minutes for your charcoal to, I guess, simmer or whatever.

Is that true?

How long do you have to wait if you're going to barbecue before you can start throwing stuff on the charcoal grill?

Let me ask you something. Were you using. We're not done with you. Were you using charcoal briquettes or were.

You using natural charcoal Matchlite charcoal briquettes?

Okay, Match Light says on the bag that it takes 10 to 15 minutes. The indication is it's when the charcoal briquettes are ash gray, that's when you can start cooking. But also remember, it depends on what you're going to cook. When they're ash gray and you spread them out, you should be able to put your hand over them about this far from the charcoal and go, one Mississippi, two Mississippi. And somewhere right in there is a super high heat, which if you're trying to sear steak or burgers or something like that, it's kind of what you want. But if you want to cook something slower, you kind of get three Mississippi is sort of medium heat for Mississippi. You better keep a very close eye on that fire because you're Cooking very slowly, but it may go out on you. So with charcoal briquettes, look for ash gray. Now, can I convince you not to use match light? And was there a reason why you used match light?

Probably safety more than anything else.

Safety.

Yeah.

All right, now you can sit down.

I got a follow up too.

Okay. Is there any danger. Press conference time here.

How do you feel about putting tin foil on the grill too? Is that a big no no in your book?

Well, my bank. Now, wait a minute here, wait a minute. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. This is good. This is, this is gonna. Who used to work with foil?

I used to work on the Reynolds brand. Everyone would say 10 and it would just drive us crazy. So it's aluminum.

Aluminum foil.

Sorry, I'm not talking about it in terms of grilling. I'm just talking about it in terms of the actual.

My banker calls this my second childhood. I took off the corporate. Corporate suit and tie about 15 years ago. The last corporate position I had was as vice president of marketing for the Southeast for Reynolds Metals Corporation. So we promoted a lot of lining your grill with aluminum foil. And I almost said tinfoil because that's the way I, you know, Pat and Betty, Pat and Betty, they're my buddies. The next time you see them, tell them that, you know, anyway, I owe them a book. I'm in big trouble with them. You know, if you're like my mother and you want to keep a spotless grill, I think that's a good thing. The other thing that I think aluminum foil is really, really good for is balling that puppy up and cleaning your grill. It's a whole lot cheaper to do it. The grill top where you've actually had the food. It's a cheaper method than going and buying one of these fourteen or fifteen dollar grill brushes. And it works just as well. So line it if you want to. You know, I was worried about the.

Rust on the grill. That was the thing.

We're getting way too picky. I need to take you down to North Carolina and show you some of the pits where barbecues. Rust is a good thing. It's kind of like I'm trying to think of. Does anybody here, has anybody here ever been to Joe Junior's over on sleep 6th and 11th? Okay. You remember when they about lost their lease and there was an uproar about this whole thing and in the whole deal, finally the landlord, really thanks to Matthew Broderick and I think Jessica, Sarah Jessica Parker, because they were big fans of this place. The landlord agreed that they had to remodel the booths and the, you know, the counter and everything. But they could leave the griddle alone. And I do think there's something to this buildup that happens on these. On old griddles like this that you cannot replicate. I think it's why you can take Dreamland Barbecue in Tuscaloosa. Their barbecue is a whole lot better than Dreamland Barbecue in Mobile or Dreamland Barbecue in Birmingham, because they don't have the decades of the. So when I say rust is a good thing, I don't necessarily mean rust, but some of that buildup is not a bad thing because it does help with the flavoring process. But if the grill is about to rust out, then I think you put aluminum foil. That answers my question. Okay. Thanks, buddy. Sure. Thank you. Yes, sir.

I like to do a lot of turkeys or chickens using indirect method in a big Weber. I recently read about something called the Orion cooker, which is some convection thing using coal. Have you heard about that? I was wondering what your thoughts were.

Well, what kind of grill do you have?

I got a couple, but I have an 18 inch and a 22 inch Weber and then a Smokey Joe.

Okay. Those are convection ovens, right when you open it up. Yeah. And I've heard of this one. I have not seen it. I've heard a couple of comments about it. They've been positive comments. It's a price point thing. I mean, you can spend 10,000, $15,000 for a grill for your backyard. Will it do any better than a 22 inch Weber to smoke a turkey? I don't think so.

Yeah.

The thing I like about obviously the Weber is easy because you don't have to baste. It's quicker than the oven, you know, like Thanksgiving. It's a unique thing, too. Everybody likes that. But this seemed a little different too. I'm just kind of. It looked interesting from what I read about it. And it might even be quicker than the Weber, the way they were saying.

That's what I've heard. But I really can't comment much more than just, you know, I've heard some things about it. I haven't had the opportunity to cook on it yet. My Weber Charcoal Grill is 31 years old. I guess I'm a big fan of that thing. And I've cooked a bunch of turkeys on it, so. Yes, sir.

I grill a lot of beef and chicken, but pork, not so often. And I think it's partly because I have a hard time telling, you know, how long to cook the pork, how to know if it's done. I was wondering if you had any tips on that.

Okay, everybody put their index finger in the air. You know this trick?

I do.

No, you don't know. You know the other trick? This is the simpler trick. Oh, you know what we're going to do? We're going to make everybody look a little stupid here. Okay. Now we're gonna for the guys, this'll be easy. Kind of get like you're gonna shave. Alright. Put this index finger go here. All right. That's rare. This is medium. And if this is a filet mignon you're cooking, please just throw it away.

For pork. Shouldn't pork be, you know, more cooked than beef?

The last case of trichinosis in the United states was in 1953 and that was the year I was born. So there hasn't been one for a while. And trichinosis is pretty dead at 145 degrees. One of the things that we do in the United States is we really overcook pork because we've also genetically changed it to where it's not as fatty as it used to be. So if you overcook it, you're also kind of getting into the shoe leather thing. And if you're like a pork loin or a pork tenderloin or even at 150 to 155 degrees, I think even your mom will eat it, even though she doesn't want to see any pink inside pork. But it'll be a much juicier piece of meat. You talking about pork chops or are you talking about bigger things? Or are you actually talking about a.

Pork shoulder sort of pork chops, some bigger things.

Pork chops, Pork chops you really can deal with like a steak. And right here, if they use all your senses when you cook, you know, learn to use everything and especially your touch. The guys in the kitchens, these restaurants, they're touching your meat, you know, I mean, just, you know, that's going on, just get over it because that's how they tell, that's how they tell when it's done. And for a pork chop right here, it's just about perfect for a pork chop. Now if you're going to cook a pork chop on the grill, let's don't come home with these little thin cuts, you know, let's get something that's about an inch. And the other thing we were talking about the one Mississippi, two Mississippi, get your fire to about a two Mississippi, three Mississippi. Pork doesn't like high heat. If you ever go to a restaurant and you get ribs and there's, like, that much bone showing on it, they've been cooked over too high heat. That's called a shiner in the trade, and that's not a good thing. A little bit of bone is a good thing, but a large portion of bone is not what you want. So when you are cooking pork, think about cooking it at a little slower rate than you normally than you would a steak or hamburger or something like that. Did that take care of that question?

Yeah.

Okay. Like I said, I get on tangents every now and then, so. Thank you. Yes, sir. Hi.

One of the things I have trouble cooking is vegetables of all kinds. I love to cook meat, but I just can't really get the veggies right ever. I'm sure there's some good recipes, but do you have anything sort of standard recommendation?

I'm dating somebody right now whose daughter is a vegetarian. I've had to learn about cooking vegetables on the grill. It was sort of survival. And there are a lot of vegetarian and vegetable recipes in the book. What kind of recipe are you talking about? Squash, onions. Give me a little bit, like, peppers.

Portobellos, onions, and like, zucchini and squash.

All right. Portobellos are. Portobellos are great on the grill. I mean, this. Even if you are the biggest carnivore in the world, a portobello is just absolutely wonderful on the grill. The simplest thing to do with a portobello is make sure you get the cap, the little thing on the middle of it off. Some people like to peel portobellos. You know, I don't own restaurant Daniels, so I don't peel them. I kind of leave them there. Some folks actually like to take a spoon and kind of drag it around and get some of the gills out of them. That's the stuff on the other side. I. I don't think you need to necessarily mess around doing that. But what really is great on portobellos is to get you a good olive oil and a good balsamic vinegar and a thing of herbes de Provence. Herbes de Provence is the original rub, the original barbecue rub, as far as I'm concerned. And let those portobellos marinate in some olive oil and some balsamic and a little for about an hour, and then cook it exactly the way you would a steak over high heat. And here again, believe it or not, you can kind of tell when they're sort of like this. They're done, and take them off and they also are kind of like meat. They like to rest a little bit. Peppers here, again, it's one. A little olive oil goes a long way with most any vegetable. Peppers. Are you having trouble with them falling through the grill or just kind of cut them into eighths, and that's big enough that they shouldn't go through anybody's grill top. The thing with peppers is you do want them to blister. You don't want them to necessarily blacken, but you do want to blister, because what's happening, this black stuff or dark brown stuff that you see, that's the natural sugars in anything that's caramelizing. How many of you don't like caramel? Okay. I mean, that's what's happening when you cook. There's this chemical reaction going on, and it's the caramelization of sugars that actually adds a lot, a lot of flavor, especially on a grill. Squash take $24.95 and go to Chinatown and buy you a Japanese mandolin. It's a little plastic mandolin. It will be the very best tool you ever invested in in your kitchen, these $150 stainless steel mandolins. The only thing that they will do, the little Japanese mandolin won't do is they will do a waffle potato. Now, how often do you do waffle potatoes? Not very often. And there's actually a guy who sells stuff on the streets every now and then who has one that you can do a waffle potato on. But and just take your squash and slide that through to where they're like, yay thick and long. And here again, grill them to a little olive oil, little ers, Provence, salt and pepper. I know a guy who does all his vegetables, and all he does is he throws everything in a bowl and he sprays the whole thing with Pam and tosses them little salt and pepper, and they're great. But here, again, you're trying to cook them. A squash over a high heat is only going to take maybe three minutes, three, four minutes, couple minutes on side. And you do want to turn them over because you're getting more caramelization and you're getting more flavor. Now, the piece de resistance about any vegetable is once you take them off, throw them in a bowl and toss them with an acid of some kind, a balsamic vinegar, some lemon juice, regular cider vinegar, champagne vinegar, mint apple vinegar. That's the thing about living in New York or having access to the food stores that we have in New York, is that you can get so many different things that we can't get in North Carolina. The acidity is like one of the best seasoning devices that you can ever come up with. And it just makes grilled vegetables pop. I mean, just pop. So, like, simple as lemon juice. Balsamic vinegar works really well. If you don't like the dark color, you can use a white balsamic because you're still getting that sweet acid kind of thing. And just toss them together and then just sit back and let everybody go. What did you do to these vegetables? Because you know they're going to be impressed.

And just a quick follow up you mentioned.

I love the follow up.

The rub. I use Tony Satcheries. Is there any one brand that you like from a rubber?

Because there's a lot out there. I don't know. You're going to have so many choices in this book that I doubt you'll ever buy another rub. There are some great. If I'm. Whose would I buy? I have bought Rendezvous and I bought Interstate Barbecue out of Memphis. They both package a rub. And there is a rub called Dancing Pig that you can get in Memphis that I've never seen for sale here at all, anywhere that I like. But for the most part, you can take any of the rubs that are in this book in the rubs chapter or with some of the rib recipes. My rib recipe in this book has a very, very short rub recipe. I mean, it's basically paprika, chili powder, oregano, salt and sugar. At the barbecue block party this past weekend, I did a seminar on rubs. And I think a lot of people were just kind of shocked that it's only five ingredients that really carry a rub, and then everything after that is what you want in it. Now, the rub that you're buying, I know, has oregano and thyme in it. So you might look at one of the base rubs that are in this book and then add in to your taste a little oregano in thyme rubs. Make a big batch, big, because you can keep them in your refrigerator for three to six months. You can throw them in the freezer for about a year and pull them out and use them right out of the freezer if you want to. But there's one big question. How many of you have spices in your house or apartment that are six months old or older? All right, tonight we're all gonna go home and we're gonna toss those, right? Because they're basically useless. They have lost the essential oils that they need to really give you flavor. Keep your spices about three to Six months. And keep them away from the heat because I bet a lot of you got them right over the stove, don't you? And that's the worst place for them. Your red spices, like paprikas, chili powders, cayennes, put those in your refrigerator and they will remain volatile. And you know, so you have to take a little care about your spices. And when you're doing, if you're going to make up a batch of rubs, I would suggest that you actually go out and buy some fresh spices to do it. But your own rub will be your favorite thing. And don't hesitate to use, don't think of rubs just on pork. My favorite recipe that's in this book is I'm taking a pork rubber and putting it on salmon and grilling salmon and then basting it with a little barbecue sauce. I got people that don't like salmon that will eat it that way. So, you know, use it and, and also rubs. You know, you guys that don't have grills, put your rubs on your chicken and stuff that you're cooking in the oven. I mean, it's, it's a simple way to, to season. Okay. More follow ups. I like that follow up. Thanks. As long as nobody calls me Bush.

I have a follow up. No, I'm kidding. Okay. Well, first of all, I'm so happy to meet you because back way prior to Google, I actually worked at a barbecue company in Atlanta called Lowcountry Barbecue, but they were known for their vinegar based sauce. So I wanted to know if you preferred the vinegar based sauce or the tomato based sauce. And then as a follow up, I wanted to know if you are from the south and you love Southern barbecue, where your favorite places are in New York that we can kind of have that same experience.

Okay. I grew up in Greensboro north, so that everybody's kind of on the same page. Especially in the state of North Carolina, there are two distinct barbecue sauces. There's Eastern style, which is very vinegar based and basically is just vinegar, crushed red peppers, black pepper and salt. Once you hit somewhere around the middle of the state in that particular line, nobody exactly knows where it is. You get into what's called Lexington style barbecue or Western style barbecue. And tomato and sugar winds up going into these sauces. Then throughout the other regions. And this is Memphis, it's East Tennessee, Georgia and even Alabama, the sauces change, and they change by how much tomato product is in that vinegar and how thick they get. And if you get to Kansas City, they start getting really, really tomatoey. Really sugary, really thick. And maybe that's the reason that KC Masterpiece is number one selling barbecue sauce in the country is because it's sweet and it's thick. It also will burn faster than anything you could possibly use to baste your chicken with. Your question. Nasty question. You know that? You knew that when you asked. I was born and raised in Greensboro. That's somewhere Greensboro, North Carolina. That's somewhere on the dividing line between Eastern style and Lexington style. I love Lexington style pork. If you're ever in North Carolina, go to Lexington. Go to Lexington number one and try it. Martha Stewart even likes that one the best. But that's not to say that I don't like the pork in eastern North Carolina or Tennessee or anywhere else. What's more important to me than the sauce is are they still following the old method? Are they still cooking with wood? And only about 15 to 20% of the barbecue joints in the south anymore are using wood, wood and charcoal to cook their pork products. The other difference between these two regions in North Carolina is eastern North Carolina is always whole hog. They do the whole hog kind of like Mitchell's did at the block party and chop everything up. And in the western part of the state, they just do shoulders, shoulders and butts. So the meat's a little different and it takes the smoke a little different. But that's the. If you don't see a wood pile, then find another barbecue restaurant. And whether you're in North Carolina or anywhere else in barbecue land, the other part of that question was.

The follow up was, if you wanted to kind of have that same Southern experience in New York, where would you go? Because I've kind of haven't really explored it enough. And I was just curious, since you spend time in both.

When you go to Blue Smoke, and I imagine that's where most of you have kind of gone at this point. Here's what I get at Blue Smoke. Okay, I'll give you the rundown. I ordered deviled eggs, the Texas smoked sausage appetizer, banana cream pie, and a mint julep. That ought to tell you a little something right there. And I think the world of Danny Meyer and I think the world of Kenny. There are days that his pulled pork is better than others. They're still learning and they will still admit that. The most consistent thing, I think, at Blue Smoke is their smoked chicken, which I think is really good Hill country, which just opened. I wouldn't bother going there for about another six months. They're still trying to work out things. Their sides I think they have really good potential on their sides. They're still a little salty right now. The brisket is pretty decent brisket, but let them sit for six months. I have not been to Paul Kirk's place since he opened. Now, I used to go to Pearson's when it was in Long Island City when I first moved here. And I always laughed at the fact that they put chopped pork on a Portuguese roll because we use cheap white buns. I mean, it's kind of like, you know, think of a hamburger bun that's like wonder bread. I mean, that's sort of, you know, the way it should be done.

So.

Probably right now, I would say the blue smoke is still the best. If you want to do it, I would ask them to not put not to sauce. If you're going to get chopped pork, I would ask them not to sauce it and you sauce it. I've been there with a couple of chefs around James Beard award time. And what we would do is we would ask for the pork not to be sauced in a separate bowl, and we would take the vinegar that was on the table and the sauces that were on the table and make our own sauce. And I still think that's probably the best way to do it. God, I forgot about Daisy Maze.

Dinosaur.

Dinosaur. Well, now you're asking me about Southern. Okay.

Yeah, I haven't been there, so I was just curious.

Dinosaur. Yes, from Syracuse. It's an entirely different style, but I think it's a pretty doggone good place, and it's worth the trip uptown to go there. Is it? I'm sure it is. That kind of goes back to what we were talking about, about Rendezvous and all that. Daisy Mae's is their pork barbecue has got that mustard sauce, which is sort of a South Carolina thing, and it's really a small pocket of South Carolina. And that's actually an interesting story because the guy who started the mustard sauce craze also was the guy who fought the hardest to keep the Confederate flag on top of the state capitol and basically almost lost his business over his political beliefs. But it's good for what it is. What I love at Daisy Mays is their beef ribs. I just think those Oklahoma style beef ribs are just absolutely great. And so, yeah, I think Daisy Mays is worth the trip. What? I haven't been there in a long time. The question was Virgil's, which is over in Times Square or the theater district. It's been 10 years since I've been in that place, and I really would Hate to comment on that at all. Barbecue in New York is changing. I mean, it's obvious. It's like one of the hottest things going on. I mean, the restaurants that are opening are all barbecue joints. It's still hard to. I guess one of the reasons I lean toward Blue Smoke is because I know that they're actually smoking. I know that Danny Meyer spent a ton of money to have a baffled smoker system that meets the air quality standards for the city of New York, but still does what it's supposed to do as far as the meat's concerned. But one of the big concerns in the south and in the barbecue states in general is that most pit masters are in their 60s and 70s. It's a hard job. I mean, to do it, you know, if you're doing it with wood, it's a lot of hours and it's an extremely hard job. And there's not a lot of people that. That now are following. And it used to be that if your dad was a pitmaster, you were a pitmaster. It was generational, and that's not happening so much. And there's a lot of folks that own barbecue places in the south that are concerned if they're going to be able to continue at the same level of quality that they have now. So if you ever get tired of Google and you want a lower paying job with worse hours and smell like smoke for the rest of your life, there's somebody that will be glad to train you on this in the South. The other thing about blue smoke is both Kenny and Michael, the executive chef of the Union Square Hospitality Group, spent a year in different pits around different country. Around the country. And so they have seen it and they have experienced the sweat that goes into it. Did any of you go to the Big Apple block party barbecue block party two years ago? Y' all went. Were you there this year? What was your favorite one? Ed Mitchell. Yep.

Have you ever been to Wilbur's?

Wilbur's is my favorite eastern North Carolina style. How do you know Wilbur's? Aha. And you fly into Raleigh and you go down through 70 and you stop at Wilbur's. Uh huh. We got this one, Dal.

We bring back tons every time.

All right, I got a question for you. Have you ever ordered chunks at Wilbur's? Now, we're not talking about blowing chunks here, people chunks there.

I've got Brunswick stew. That's the only thing that will make you different.

Okay. The next time you're down through there, and this is gonna cost you a couple extra Bucks and tip. But tell them you want chunks. And what they do is actually whether it's the waitress or whether it's the takeout folks, they actually go back to the pit and pull it right off the hog. Ralph. One that's been cooked and it's to die for. I mean, it's absolutely to die for. You don't have to go, okay, they go, and they'll know exactly what you mean. And it really is a great way. They actually have a pretty good barbecue chicken, too, but it's different. But Ed Mitchell's is as good as anybody's, but I think Wilbur's is the best. Absolutely. And so if you're. I know that. How many of you have relatives in North Carolina? Oh, that's a small number. I would, you know, normally when I say that, it's at least half because somebody's parents have retired down there somewhere. If you fly into Raleigh on business for any reason, and some of you may, because the Research Triangle park and all that kind of stuff that goes on down there, it actually is worth the effort to rent a car and drive 45 minutes from Raleigh and go to Wilbur's Deep Barbecue. I mean, it's. It's awesome stuff. And if Wilbur Shirley's there, he will tell you stories about his political leanings and how they were affected. Big Bill Clinton fan. If any of you see some old footage of Clinton when he was running for the Democratic nomination, you will notice that he's wearing a hat that's blue with a red bill, and it says Wilbur's Barbecue on it. After Clinton was elected, he came. There's Seymour Johnson. Air Force bases in Goldsboro where Wilbur's is. And Clinton came back to Goldsboro and ordered 3,000 plates of barbecue and fed everybody on the base. Wilbur Shirley kind of likes him. When Bush the First was president, he came to Goldsboro, went to Seymour Johnson originally, had ordered 100 plates. They were going to do a little bit, little thing for 100. Got to liking the families and everybody that he found down there so much that he came back and asked Wilbur if He could feed 3,000 people that night. And they pulled it off. So Bush the First is, you know, he's, you know, got both parties covered. When George came down at George w. He fed 30. So not very, you know. You know, anyway, you know, we are the state that sent Jesse Helms to Congress a whole lot. And I had to. When I first came up here, I had to justify that a lot. But the biggest reason we kept electing Jesse Helms was because he was head of the Agriculture Committee. And at that time, North Carolina was a big rural agrarian state. And we needed the price support. So that's part of it. Nobody really agreed with his politics. Yes, sir. Wait a minute. Okay, it's your turn.

I came in a little bit late, so I apologize if this was covered, but wanted to just get your take on several barbecue sauces. One of the types of sauces that I like to use is stubs. So I'm not sure if you're familiar with it.

Oh, Austin. Yeah. Who's not? Yeah.

Just wanted to get your take on, you know, if you're not going to create your own how that sort of ranks.

I want you to look up Peter McNees, Seattle Pork ribs in the book and see what the first ingredient is in his barbecue sauce recipe. It's Stubbs. And he doctors it up a little bit. I like Stubbs. It is very Texan in its take. By that, I mean, it's not sweet. There's very little sweetness in it at all. But it's a good bottle barbecue sauce. It's one of the better ones. You got another one you want to ask me about?

No, that's mostly it. No follow up.

Okay.

Do you refrigerated or not? Because I hate putting refrigerated barbecue sauce on my hot food. My mom says I'm refrigerated. The whole rest of the family's up in arms about it.

The best way to answer that is does the high end ketchup at a restaurant that's sitting at a diner that's sitting. Sitting on the. Okay. All right. But people do, and they always. The ones that refrigerate their ketchup are always talking about how much better that smaller bottle of Heinz ketchup that's sitting on the diner table is. And it's because it's never been refrigerated. And I think and make sure that everybody signs a release on the way out that if you're using your barbecue sauce within a month or six weeks, I'm like you. I kind of. It's like taking a. Going to the farmer's market and getting a tomato and putting it in the refrigerator, it never tastes as good. Right. All right. Most barbecue sauces have got tomato product in it. It never tastes as good. Same thing. So the one sauce that I tend to refrigerate is bone sucking sauce. And that's because I know how that one's made. And they're so. So little preservatives or anything in that one that I do tend to do it, which is kind of stupid because acids. Vinegar. Acid is also a preservative. And so typically the ones that have a lot of vinegar in them, usually you definitely don't need to refrigerate. So anyway, do whatever. Take your stomach into your own hands. Yes, sir.

I'm a big fan of road food and, and the website that comes with it. The Sterns. Do you know them? Do you have any other kind of books or resources like that on finding the Wilbur's of the world when we're out traveling? That's one. Here comes the follow up. The follow up is a good friend of mine once FedExed me rendezvous, because he's from Memphis. And we always talk about stuff like this. Is there any merit to having rendezvous ribs FedExed in New York or is it just, I've been to Rendezvous and it's obviously better, but is that just stupid? Is that marketing or is it.

Well, if it's stupid, I've done it, you've done it. Okay. You know. But it was more of a curiosity. And since I now go to Memphis about four times a year at least, I tend not to do it. If you put Mike Mills Magic Dust, which is sitting on the table in blue smoke, if you sprinkle that on their ribs, you're going to get something that's close to Rendezvous Ribs without the airfare, you know, and all that kind of stuff, I think you can do it yourself, you know, if you've got a grill, I think you can do it yourself. The other thing that amazes me is Corky's, which is the other big. One of the other big barbecue joints in Memphis. I don't know how many insomniacs are in here, but they sell 8 million pounds of barbecue on QVC a year. 8 million pounds of barbecue. That's an enormous amount of barbecue. So, yeah, I mean, you know, you get that bag of popcorn and all that kind of stuff with it if you order it, but I think you can probably find it here just as well. And what was the other part of your question?

Any other road food type resources?

I have a big issue with the Stearns on Lexington barbecue. Don't go to Jimmy's. They wrote on and on and on about Jimmy's Barbecue in Lexington and their column in Gourmet. And I'm friendly with the folks at Gourmet. And I ripped off this one the first time I've ever ripped off a letter to anybody. Because Jimmy's nine out of ten Times is garbage. And. And I think they hit it on that one time that it's pretty good. There's so many great barbecue restaurants in Lexington, that one gives me pause. Chowhound. E. Gullet. If you guys will tell me how to get this a little higher up in the search engine. I built a website. I know that just. That's nothing to you guys, but to me, that was like, haha. Www.becue-nation.com. and primarily what I want to do with that site is make it just an informational site where people are talking to each other about barbecue, how to cook it, where to eat it, and that kind of stuff. But that's very infancy right now. But if you'd like to put in your 2 cents worth somewhere on that site, that'd be great. But Chowhound's one of the ones that I tend to go to because it's not necessarily that it's the best site, but the numbers are there. So you really kind of get to judge, I think, a little more fairly. I know a lot. Magnolia Grill, which is one of the best restaurants in the country. It's based in Durham, North Carolina. James Beard award winning chef. You know, the whole bit. If you look them up on Chowhound, half of them rip them apart and half of them don't, but there's enough that you can judge for yourself whether or not you want to go there. So I like Chowhound.

Well, since I'm up here, I'll get greedy for a second, and we can go. New York does have some pretty good barbecue. In terms of Korean barbecue, do you have any good recommendations there?

Anything on 32nd Street? Actually, there's. And I apologize. I cannot remember the name of this place, but there's a little Korean restaurant on Second Avenue in the East Village. Do you guys know what I'm talking about? Little hole in the wall. I mean, I love their barbecue and their sweet potato vodka, so. Yes, sir, I'll stay here. You know, y' all are the ones that gotta get fed, so I'll stay here as long as you want me to. I'm going salmon fishing next month in Alaska, so I'm gonna have limited ingredients. How would you recommend grilling up some salmon? I would make up a rub before I go and take it with me. All right, look at the. Look at a couple of the rub recipes. Either that, or are you stopping somewhere along the way before you go there? Well, I'm not sure. Okay. I'm gonna be camping, so here's a good one. And it'll be easy for you to carry. Tom Douglas, who's one of the great chefs of this country, but has several restaurants in the Seattle area. He makes a line of rubs called Rubs with Love. And he makes a salmon rub. I'm pretty certain that Balducci's will have it. Or Dean and DeLuca. What was his name? It's Rubs with Love. Rubs With Love. And he makes a salmon rub. And, you know, if he's from Seattle, he ought to know. So I would just pick up one of those and throw it in my suitcase. Great. Thanks. Okay. Any more questions, or do you want to go eat? All right. Thanks, guys. Enjoyed it.