Gretchen Rubin: Optimizing Your Senses

Foreign.

Kawasaki. And this is remarkable people. We're on a mission to make you remarkable. Helping me in this episode is Gretchen Rubin. She is an authority on happiness and personal growth and a recovered Supreme Court law clerk. Gretchen's ability to distill complex ideas with levity and clarity has captivated millions of people. She hosts the very popular Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast and created the Happiness Project, a platform that empowers people to become happier, healthier, more productive, and more creative. Over 3 million people have taken her 4 Tendencies quiz. They discovered whether they're upholders, questioners, obligers, or rebels. For the record, I am an upholder. Now she invites us on a sensory journey with her newest book, Life in Five Senses. How exploring the senses got me out of my head and into the world. I'm Guy Kawasaki. This is remarkable people. And now, here's the remarkable Gretchen Rubin. First, I have to tell you that I felt an instant connection to you because you quit your law career after your clerking in the Supreme Court. I quit law school after two weeks. So we quit at different points, obviously, but that's why you're Gretchen Rubin, and I'm an unknown podcaster on the Internet. And by the way, I took your happiness test, and I'm an upholder.

Oh, are you? So am I. Interesting. Yes. My Four Tendencies quiz.

Maybe upholders just don't like law anyway.

Yeah, that's interesting. I would think that they would be more inclined to law, actually, because they like order. Yeah. They like execution and things unfolding. But maybe I should mention that if people are wondering if they're upholders, they can find out@gretchenrubin.com quiz it's a quiz that divides people into upholders, questioners, obligers, and rebels to. But Guy, you know, upholders, we're the second smallest group. There are not that many of us. Only 19% of people are upholders, so there's not a lot of upholders running around.

Who's even smaller?

Rebels. The rebel is the smallest tendency, huh? Yep.

I have something to shoot for. I also want you to know that based on your most recent book, I changed my phone to monochrome, and now I feel like I'm Henri Cartier Bresson with an iPhone and I'm looking at everything monochrome. I kind of agree with your conclusion that it makes your phone less enticing. So maybe you want to explain this theory. I found this to be a very interesting theory in your book.

A habit that a lot of people struggle with is they're too attracted to their phone. And so the sensory pleasures of the phone, of looking at photographs, scrolling around, some people just feel that they get sucked into it and find it hard to put down. So what you can do is you can switch your phone to grayscale so that it just shows up in black, white and gray instead of being in full color. And if you're looking at life as a black and white photograph, it's like watching your grandparents black and white TV set. And it's less enticing. And it's also much more difficult to use because we use color to navigate and define things quickly. Like, you're looking for an app, part of what you're looking for is a color. Websites will use color to help you, like, identify what button you're supposed to push or what's most important. We see color because it's helpful to us to be able to see color, to be able to distinguish things more easily. So if you make it black, white and gray, it's just. It's a lot more cumbersome, a lot less fun to use. And that makes it easier for some people to put down their phone. And by the way, if you have a child who really wants to use one of your devices, you can turn it to grayscale and just tell them, oh, it's broken, I don't know how to fix it. And then they don't like to use it as much either.

Okay, good to know. I'll let you know how long I last in this monochrome world before we get to the book about senses, a little bit more about the happiness project. Okay. There's this big Harvard study, longitudinal study, 75, 80 years. We had the current person running that on this podcast, and basically the gist of his answer was that what makes people happy are relationships.

Yeah.

It seems that your happiness project has a little different conclusion. Like more emphasis on self care. Is that a correct perception of mine, that there's a difference between the Harvard study and your study?

Oh, well, I definitely agree. And I mean, that's nothing new. Ancient philosophers as well as contemporary scientists say that if you had to pick one element to a happy life, you'd pick relationships. But one of the things that gets in the way of relationships is people, and it can be you. And one of the things I do think is that one of the best ways to make other people happy is to be happy yourself. And one of the best ways to make yourself happy is to make other people happy. And one of the things we cannot do is we cannot change other people. But if I Change a relationship changes, and if I change, the atmosphere around me changes. And so I am very interested in what the individual can do. Like, what could you do starting tomorrow as part of your ordinary life without spending a lot of time, energy, or money to make your life happier, healthier, more productive, more creative. To my mind, that's probably going to make a lot your relationships better, and it will also make it easier to do the things to pursue relationships. Because what I found is that often people are like, yeah, I know I'd be happier if I made time for friends, and I know I'd be happier if I went to my reunion. Or I know I'd be happier if I planned a Super bowl party, but I'm too exhausted to do it, or I'm so overwhelmed I can't handle it. I. Or I can't figure out how to do something consistently. So it's not that people don't understand that relationships are so important to them, but that for whatever reason, they're finding it challenging to put that into use. It's an execution problem. So I'm very interested in the execution part of it.

Ladies and gentlemen, now you understand why Gretchen Rubin was a clerk for the Supreme Court. Oh, my God, what a great answer. I have a real tactical question as we do this interview. So Madison and I interview people 50, 60 a year, three, four years now, and I will tell you that nobody makes as good eye contact on this virtual recording as you. So what is the setup you're using that lets you have such great eye contact?

Oh, I'm just looking into the camera because I know that that's. That gives me eye contact. So I just have a camera on the top of my computer monitor.

So you have nothing special? No teleprompter, no mirrors, nothing?

No.

Gretchen, let me tell you something. You are the most disciplined person we have ever interviewed on this podcast.

Oh, wow, that's nice.

Madison. Madison, is that not true? Like, have you ever seen someone have such great eye contact?

It's very true. Yeah. Usually people are looking down. So. Interesting. Well, this is a whole new skill that we've all had to grapple with, which is the video call.

Maybe it's because you're so attuned to your senses that you. How's that? A few years have gone by in the Happiness Project. Are there any updates about what makes happiness? What the qualities of self care and helping others and gratitude and forgiveness. Is there anything new you want to add to this? Bring us up to speed.

The one thing that I think that my Understanding has really deepened sort of in the 10 plus years since I wrote the happiness project is. I really more and more believe that there is no one magic, one size fits all solution for happiness and that each of us has to do a happiness project for ourselves. And that when people are saying things like, well, the secret is meditation or well, if something's important to you, you have to get up early and do it first thing in the morning. I'm always like, that's probably good advice for some people, but I doubt that it's good advice for everyone. Some people are like, just give yourself accountability. But I know perfectly well back to the four tendencies that we were talking about before. People who are in the category of obligers need outer accountability even to meet inner expectations for themselves. But rebels resist outer accountability. And if somebody's looking over their shoulder and telling them what to do, or giving them check ins or holding them accountable, they will actually resist. It makes them less likely to do something. And so a lot of times you really have to say what is true for you, what is true for me? Instead of thinking what is the right way or the best way. When I started out in trying to research happiness, I really thought I could find like the best way. And the fact is there can be no best way because people are so different. It's like, what's the best way to cook an egg? Well, it depends on how you like your eggs. Maybe you don't even eat eggs. So there can be no one right way. But I think people love a one pager. They like the idea of being told the answer or giving the answer. And now I really, more and more, I think people can tell you a lot of ideas and possibilities and we can all learn from each other, but no one can figure it out for somebody else.

You just blew my next question. My next question was going to be what are your favorite most powerful happiness hacks? But almost by definition you just said that you can't answer that. It changes for each person.

There's certain things, there's kind of principles that are true, like accept yourself and expect more from yourself. But what guy would accept for himself and expect more from himself would be very different from what Gretchen would choose. So it's a principle that everybody would apply to themselves differently. Another thing, if you're trying to decide between two possibilities and you can't decide, sometimes it's like, well, should I move or should I stay? Should I take the big job or should I stay in the job I love? You know, and you've Made your pros and cons list and it's very hard to decide. You can tell yourself to choose the bigger life. Again, I can't tell you what's the bigger life. Maybe the bigger life for you is the new job. Maybe the bigger life is the job is moving forward in the job you have. Maybe it's moving. Maybe it's saying, maybe it's getting a dog, maybe it's not getting a dog. Choose the bigger life. So again, sometimes these hacks are things where it's an approach, but then everybody uses it for themselves.

It's almost as if you're reading my script here. You just touched on this. One of my favorite quotes is this quote to be Gretchen, I must both accept myself and expect more from myself. This is kind of like Julia Cameron has an inner critic that she has named Nigel and she kind of beats Nigel down all the time because Nigel is so negative. On the other hand, you're pointing out that the Nigel, the self doubt can also help you because it drives you to a higher standard or to accomplish more. So could you just provide more information about this concept of how do you accept yourself and yet expect more from yourself?

I think that for each of us there are the limitations which are just built into our nature, which I am some things and not other things. And that's the reality. And there are certain aims that are not realistic for me and that aren't right for me. I could spend a lot of time and energy driving for them, but in the end, they're not the right aims for me. Maybe I'm doing something because other people want me to do it, or I think that I should, but it's not, not the right aim for me. But then there are things where, yeah, that's an aim. It's right for me, but it makes me uncomfortable. I'm going out of my comfort zone. But I know in my heart this is something I should ask of myself. So for instance, I had a friend when I was just starting out in work, I had a work friend who got a big promotion. And one of the responsibilities that came with that big promotion was that you were the person who gave a big weekly presentation to a large group of people. And this was a guy who really hated public speaking. Like up all night, you know, really, really didn't want. Really disliked public speaking. So he confided this to his boss, who was a really good, really good boss. And his boss said, like, look, that doesn't have to be part of the responsibilities of this job. If you don't want to do that. I can move things around. You don't have to give that presentation. So then my friend has to decide. Does he say to himself, and, hey, that's not me. I'm not going to do the public speaking? Or does he say to himself, you know what? I really don't like public speaking, but I should get out of my comfort zone. I should deal with this. This is a skill that I want to acquire, and I'm going to keep it as part of this job, and I'm going to deal with it now. Who's to say what the right decision is? Only he can know. I can imagine many people where they're like, you know what? Public speaking is never going to be my thing. I. I got other skills. I'm going to focus on other things in the job. That's just going to distract me away from what I really think I want to turn this job into. That could be the right answer for one person, but another person might be like, look, this is a skill I'll need for the rest of my career. This is my time. I got to deal with this. I got to get comfortable with the public speaking. I got a great boss right now. Let me do this right now. Again, accept yourself. Expect more from yourself. It's for you to decide. Not that it's easy to decide. This can often be really, really hard to tell. Especially because a lot of times we want to let ourselves off the hook and say, oh, that's really uncomfortable. I don't want to do it. How do I let myself off the hook? But I think a lot of times we know, we're like, yeah, that's probably something that I should ask myself to.

So is it a matter of just understanding this dichotomy and not just defaulting to the easy way out or the hard way out, but to understand there is this dichotomy, and you have to make this decision, perhaps based on what's the bigger life?

Exactly. Like, I remember when I was starting out and writing, When I was starting out in writing, I thought, like, everybody was either a journalist or they were like a novelist, playwright, poet, or they were an academic writer. And I didn't want to do any of those things. So I had to figure out. And it took me a long time. That's part of why I went to law school. And part of the reason I went to law school is I didn't know what else to do with myself. And then finally I was like, okay, I see a way for me to do this. In my way. Now, would it have been the right thing to be like. Gretchen, you just have to deal with it and force yourself to be a journalist, even though that feels really uncomfortable to you and that isn't something that you like. Because if you want to be a writer, you just have to do it that way. Or do I say, well, I'm going to accept myself and think, is there a way for me to do this in the way that feels right for me? And it took me a while to figure out how to do it in a way that was right for me. But I have never been a journalist because that's not something that. It's not something I want to do. It can be very hard, but it's a really important question to consider.

But, Gretchen, it's one thing for Guy to quit law school after two weeks. It's another thing when you're in Sandra Day o' Connor's office as a clerk. Like, how did you pull that off? And you know, weren't your family members telling you? Are you kidding me? Do you know how many people would love to be a clerk for the Supreme Court? Maybe not now, but back then. Have you lost your mind? Gretchen, you stick it out.

I'm really fortunate because the people in my life are very tolerant of risk. And they were very much of the view, like, if you want to do this, great, do it. And now that I'm a parent myself, I realize that it's very easy to think, oh, I want someone to follow. I don't want this person to risk failure or risk disappointment or discouragement. I want them to be safe. But of course, you don't know what's safe. You don't know how to protect someone from failure or disappointment. And so, you know, in the end, you don't know. You can't advise them. But I was very fortunate that everybody in my life was like, if you want to do this, great. And how I made the shift. It's funny because for me, it was less about leaving law and more about really, really wanting to write. And not even just wanting to write in general, but wanting to write a specific book. While I was clerking, I had an idea for a book that I. And I didn't even know it was a book. And this happens to me all the time. I'll get intensely interested in a subject and I'll read a huge amount and I'll take huge amounts of notes. This is just something that I do all the time. And I've done it since I was like, 8 years old. So this is very familiar. But with this one project, it was getting bigger and bigger, and I was spending all my free time researching, taking notes. And finally it occurred to me this is the kind of work that a person would do if they were going to write a book about something. And then I thought I could be the person to write that book. And I went to a bookstore and bought a book called something like how to write and sell your nonfiction book proposal. And I just followed the directions, which makes it sound easier than it was, obviously. But. And this is true, I think of a lot of people is they feel almost a compulsion to do something. And in a way, this is exciting and freeing because you know exactly what you want. But on the other hand, it's constraining because it's like, this is what you want, and even if you don't want what you want. And so I feel very fortunate that for me, like, this thing that I was feeling so compelled to do also worked out for me to do it as my work. That was the project that became my first book, which was called Power, Many Fame, sex, A User's Guide, which was such a fun project. Loved writing that book.

Power, money, fame, sex.

Yeah, yeah. It's like the opposite of a happiness project book, but such a fun book to write. Oh, my gosh. Love that book.

Okay, now let's switch over to your latest book.

All right.

So is this practice of recognizing and paying attention to your senses, and is it just sort of a Gretchen Ruman take on mindfulness?

Perhaps. And maybe it's part of the associations, because I think sometimes when people talk about mindfulness, they think about disciplining their mind and slowing down and, like, really, you know, appreciating a sip of coffee. And my approach, I did those things. I did the 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 meditation. But for the most part, I am taking a much more playful, active, energetic, fun kind of exercises and doing things with my friends and my family and really enjoying the playfulness of the five senses and how we can tap into them to boost our energy and our creativity, connect with other people, evoke memories, just focus and be productive. So it is mindfulness. And I think one of the great things, things about the five senses is it's something that we're appreciating in the present moment. It really takes us into that present moment. But I think a lot of times when people talk about a mindfulness practice, they're really thinking about something that's more disciplined approach to the mind, which many people are very attracted to. And seek to cultivate. That wasn't what I was seeking to cultivate with this book.

And it is not as simple as slowing down.

Right?

Because slowing down could mean you reduce input. And you are in fact saying increase input for specific things. Right?

That's interesting, because I think one of the things that I found is that sometimes people want more sensory information, but then sometimes you want less. And part of what I'm arguing is really be aware of that. Don't just be this passive recipient of everything that's happening around you, but really understand how your senses are coming in and how you could dial them up or dial them down, or shape the your sensory surroundings in a way that's going to be better for you. So one of the things that surprised me, and this is something I hadn't even really noticed about myself because I was so in a fog of my own mind, was that when I'm feeling overwhelmed or drained or very stressed out, I will bring down sensory information. Like if my husband's playing music in the kitchen, I'll turn it off without thinking. Or I usually wear perfume to bed. I love perfume. I'll stop wearing perfume to bed. Instead of reading a new book, I'll reread an old book that I've already read because I'm bringing down sensory load as a way to calm myself. But then I've talked to people where they do just the opposite. They play music really loud, they take a really hot shower, a really cold shower, or they plunge their hands into ice water. They hold an ice cube in their mouth, or they eat really spicy food. And for them, that kind of relieves tension and makes them feel sort of calmer. And so maybe you want to raise, maybe you want to lower. But what I'm saying is pay attention to whatever's happening. It's just like you talking about your phone on grayscale. You don't have to use your phone the way it's set up. You don't have to use the factory settings. Do you feel distracted by all those pings and buzzes? Turn off your notification sounds. My husband has so many notification sounds. I'm like, how can you live like this? But I have no notification sounds. But it's something that you can control. And so I think a lot of times we don't think about, why do I just accept the fact that this thing is really smell? Just get rid of it if it's really smelly, or fix it or do something about it instead of just letting it happen.

You mentioned in the book The Dan Simons video about the invisible gorilla. Dan, by the way, is also on this podcast. And it seems to me that taking your approach to the senses, wouldn't people be more susceptible to not seeing the.

Gorilla because they're paying attention to something, they're not paying attention to something else?

Yeah, yeah.

Could be. Could be, yeah. If you're, like, in a restaurant and you're starting to pay a lot of close attention to the music that's playing, perhaps you wouldn't be as focused on the taste of the food.

Or vice versa.

Or vice versa. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting. One of the things I did this after the book came out because I just couldn't stop sort of engaging with the subject. It's called the what's your neglected sense Quiz, and it's@gretchenrubin.com quiz too. And it's a free quiz, and it tells you your most neglected sense. Because a lot of time what I found was that in general, people, we have foreground senses or appreciated senses, and these are the senses that we're excited about. We look for adventures. We like to talk to other people about them. We reminisce. We turn to that pleasure for that sense, for pleasure or comfort. And then we have neglected senses. And these are senses that we don't tap into as much, and we're not that interested in learning about them or having adventures. And maybe. And we don't turn to them for pleasure or comfort, and maybe we're more attuned to the negative of the senses than the positive of the senses. And so I think, you know, one of the things, like the person in the restaurant, like, one of my most neglected sense is taste. And so for me now, when I'm. It sounds funny to say, like, well, when you're in a restaurant, pay a lot of attention to your sense of taste. But I actually do a much better job when I'm in a restaurant and paying attention to my sense of taste, but I don't pay any attention to the music. That's my second most neglected sense. But I think for other people, those are two of the most appreciated senses is taste and hearing. So they're probably having a very much tuning into that restaurant in a different way from the way I am.

By any chance, have you seen the follow on video to the invisible gorilla.

The one with the curtain? Yeah, yeah. I don't know if we want to give spoilers to people because it part. But I think it works even if you know what the illusion is. Right.

I was familiar with Invisible gorilla. So I knew Dan's making me watch this video. So something is going to change. Right. And so I was paying attention. I did not notice either of the changes at all. Not even close. I was shocked.

And maybe we should tell people that if you want to see this yourself, you should just search for Monkey Business Illusion online. And it will ask you to do something, and it will tell you something surprising at the end of it. And it shows you how when we're paying very close attention to one thing, then we don't notice other things. And we've all experienced this. If you're driving down the road and you're really, really looking for a street sign, you don't notice when there's like a huge bouncy castle on the side of the road because you're so busy looking for the street signs. It's like, how can I notice the giant pink bouncy castle even though it's so big? You think, who could miss it? But you did, because you were looking so hard for something else. Yeah. It's really surprising to realize how much you can miss.

I was shocked, Gretchen. And you also write about how. And I thought about this. Even with Waze or navigation, Google Maps, Apple Maps, even if I got everything going when I'm trying to find a place, I turn off the radio. It just helps you find something with your eyes. If your ears are not listening to something. I swear to God. That's true.

Yep. Well, it is true, because when one of our senses comes down, then the others can be more acute. So that's why lights go down when we're gonna listen to a concert. You can hear better when it's dark. And like you say, you can see better when there's no music. Yeah. So that's one thing you can do, is you can play with your senses in order to give yourself the experience that you want. And it's interesting because when there is a conflict among the senses, sight usually trumps. We're hardwired for sight. Sight has more. The most real estate in the brain. And I realized, kind of like you turning off the radio when you're trying to get someplace. I realized when I looked in my closet that I had some items of clothing that I never wore. And when I tried to figure out why, I realized it's because I really liked the way they looked, but I didn't like the way they felt. They were either too tight or too scratchy or too heavy or I don't like the feeling of polished cotton. It gives me the Shivers And. And so now when I go into a dressing room, I always, before I buy something, I close my eyes and pay attention to how it feels. Because if I see it, my sight is like, it looks great. You should buy it. You'll absolutely wear it. But then when I close my eyes, I'm like, no, I don't like the way this feels. Because, of course, once you get home, you're not looking at yourself in a mirror. You have no idea what it looks like. You're very aware of how it feels. And this has really helped me avoid some bad purchases because just like you turning off the radio, for me, turning off sight means that it's easier to tune into the physical sensations, the textures, the weight, the feel of something and not get distracted by other sensations.

I wonder if that has ramifications. Like, students should not be listening to music when they study.

That is a very interesting question. Okay. Because this is a place where there is so much variation. Okay. So, Guy, if you were going to do your most demanding intellectual work, do you want silence? Do you want a busy hum like a coffee shop? Do you want music with words? Do you want music without words? Do you want white noise, pink noise, green noise? What's your preferred soundscape for really intense concentration?

This seemingly simple question. There's. Believe it or not, Gretchen, about nine months ago, I more or less became deaf. And so I have a cochlear implant. We're going to get to this because. Yeah, I will tell you that prior to becoming deaf, I could work any place, any noise, airplane, airport, coffee shop, anywhere. I could just focus and work. Okay. Post deafness, post cochlear implant activation. Tell you that until you become deaf, you really don't understand how noisy the world is. So I became deaf, then I got this implant, and now the world is too loud because the cochlear implant picks up everything. So I have stopped going to coffee shops and working as much because they're playing the music. There's the clanking, there's the. There's so much going on in a coffee shop that a cochlear implant picks up. That before I had an implant that was all white noise, but now it's in my face. Ah, it's a whole new world.

Interesting. I'm so sorry to hear that you've had this change in your hearing mentally.

I know. Listen, Guy, yeah, it's a bummer being deaf, but that's a lot better than having als. And I'm doing better than Steve Jobs is doing today. Right. So I Guess it's all relative. I didn't mean to go down this hole if it's possible, and I hope this is not trying to reduce your book to too much, but could you, for the five main senses, just give us a little explanation of how you go from simply sensing and perceiving to actually appreciating for each of the five senses?

One of the things that I found in researching and playing with my senses is that for just about any aim that you have towards having a happier, healthier, more productive life, you can use the five senses towards that aim. Because people are like, it's not just appreciating it. Like, oh, I want to appreciate my sense of sight. Look at the clouds. They're so pretty. It's like, how can I use it to spark creativity? How can I use it to engage with other people and draw closer to them? How can I evoke memories? How can I focus? How can I calm down or pump up? And so as I talk about the five senses, I'll give a suggestion. But it's not just about appreciating the senses. And in kind of a pure way, which I love and think we should do that too. Yes. Just go into the kitchen and smell a bottle of almond extract. That's beautiful. Like, just appreciate the clouds. Absolutely. But we can also use them as in kind of a larger sense as well. So, for example, for the sense of sight, what would I say? Oh, there's so many things with the sense of sight. One of the. One of the kind of. Probably the most ambitious exercise I did for Life in Five Senses is I'd visit the Metropolitan Museum every day. I'm sorry. So fortunate. Which I recognize that I live so close that I can walk there every day. But what I found is that many people share this interest in doing the same thing every day. Whether it's the same walk with their dog, it's the same hike, taking the same picture of the same tree. Every morning at 7am I talked to a guy who went to the same chain drugstore every day. I'm like, I love a chain drugstore. There's so much going on in a chain drugstore. I would absolutely go there every day. So it's something that I think for some people, they were like, the world is so huge. Why would you go to the same place every day? But I was very interested to seeing. Like, how would my experience with all my senses, but in particular my sense of sight, how would that change with repetition? And it is very interesting how you see something differently. If you see it over and over and over through repetition. So I would say that's one interesting exercise you can do if that appeals to you. Again, some people, they wouldn't want to be constrained that way. For the sense of hearing, One of the great things is listening to our favorite upbeat music is one of the quickest, easiest ways to boost our spirits and give ourselves energy. So one of the things I did is I created an audio apothecary to cure the blues. And so I just made a playlist, and it's on Spotify, if anybody wants to listen to it, of just the songs that always made me happy and now I save them. So I use them when I need a lift. I won't just wear them out. Sometimes if you love a song, you kind of wear it out. So we can use music to lift our mood with the sense of smell. I love the sense of smell. I went into this with a deep appreciation for the sense of smell. And it's one of the things that's fun that people don't realize is just as we have two eyes to see the world in three dimensions, and we have two ears so that we can locate things in space by how they sound differently, our two nostrils smell slightly differently. And if you plug one nostril and then the other, while you're smelling something, like capers or something with a strong scent, you will see that it will smell a little bit different on each side. And if you think of smell experts like wine people or perfumers, they wave things under their nose. I thought that was just like a fancy gesture that they did. No, it's very practical. It's because they're trying to make sure that both of the. Both sides, so they're getting the real full picture. So that's just like a fun little thing where it, like fun with your own body. It's like, who knew? I love that kind of thing with taste. A really fun way to engage with the sense of taste, to engage with other people through the sense of taste is to do taste comparisons. This is something that I went to Flavor University and we did taste comparisons. I just find this fascinating. So I had friends over and I. We compared varieties of apples, potato chips and chocolate. And it's. And you just talk to people like, what do you think? What's your experience? How do you rate it? Which is your favorite? But then it starts. People like reminiscing and talking about earlier experiences, and it just creates this, like, warm, fun atmosphere. It would be a fun thing to do with co workers because it's personal, but it's not like, revealing in a way that might make people uncomfortable. But it's just really fun to do these things. So that's a really different way to connect with other people. And then with touch, like thinking about the sense of touch for comfort and calm. And that can be something like a soft, fleecy blanket. Some people like weighted blankets, stroking the fur of a dog or a cat, hugging somebody else. Really. I found that holding a prop sometimes helps make people feel grounded, too. Like, I hold a pen if I'm feeling anxious. And I've heard of people who will hold a clipboard or a stone or a mug with hot coffee or a water bottle with ice cold water as a way to help themselves feel grounded. So we can turn to the sense of touch. Oh, and another thing I learned from this is that if you think you're going to have a difficult conversation with somebody, either, like, you're angry or you're just irritated by some kind of, I don't know, boring, logistical conversation that you have to have, if you touch that person while you're talking, it's much easier to maintain kind of a tender tone. It's hard to yell at people when you're holding their hand or when your hand is on their back or your knees are touching. It just changes the atmosphere of a conversation if you can. Appropriately, of course.

Well, Gretchen, I'm going to use that technique this afternoon when I deal with my kids about something, and I'll.

Yeah, it works.

I'll let you know.

Good. Let me know. Up next, on Remarkable People. We can tap into it. We can explore it, we can play with it, we can talk about it. We can engage with it in a way where it doesn't have to be onerous and demanding. Not that there's not value in doing in the demanding way, but it's not the only way. Foreign.

Become a little more remarkable with each episode of Remarkable People. It's found on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. You're listening to Remarkable People with Guy Kawasaki. This is a very hypothetical question, but which of the five senses would you first give up?

That is a very hard question. Taste is my neglected sense, but taste is very important to human functioning smell. I mean, I really, really love the sense of smell. And I think after Covid, people are much more aware of the extremely important role that smell plays in our sense of vitality and connection. So it'd be between one of those two. Now, of course, if you lose your sense of smell, you Also, you're gonna lose a lot of your sense of taste, because it's taste and smell together that give us flavor. But giving up taste altogether, I don't know. So it'd be between those two for me.

Okay, let's return to the Met. Julia Cameron has this concept of artist dates.

Yes. Love that.

And it seems to me that your trips to the Met when you're in New York is basically an artist date every day. Is that true?

Could be, yeah. Yes, absolutely. I didn't think of it that way, but it's definitely. It's this kind of recess. It's this kind of making time for my own sort of just chain of associations, whatever I feel. And I certainly found many, many creative ideas came to me during that time. You know, this kind of daydreaming, open, loose association, no agenda, time. Absolutely. Absolutely. I didn't think of it that way, but that's an interesting way to think about it.

I take it you've been there hundreds of times. So has there been any diminishing return or is just.

No, no. Because if I don't feel like being there, I just walk in and walk out. And I've done that a few times where I'm like, I just don't feel like it today. And so I'll just walk in and walk out. But no, if anything, I think it's more interesting because I said I was going to do this for a year. That year is long gone. I find it more and more interesting. In fact, I kind of present new exhibits because I always go to them. But then I'm like, but I want to have my time for the things that are always here. I like visiting those. I have my favorites. I have, like, little corners that I haven't visited in a long time. I'm like, I got to go back there. Yeah, I love it. And they switch things around much more than I thought. What seems like their permanent collection stuff is moving in and out, and then they'll close parts of it for renovation. I just show up one day and it's, oh, yeah, this is gone for two years. So, no, I love the permanent collection even the most.

I think you could write a book about the Met based on what I read about. And, Gretchen, just to show you the depth of the research I do prior to an interview, I checked this morning to see if the Met is selling this book, and they're not.

No, I don't think they are.

Anybody from the Met is listening to this. If you don't put Gretchen's book in Your bookstore. You are missing an amazing opportunity that your book should be in the Met bookstore. There's no question.

Yes, I know. They got to get on that.

Maybe we'll have a write in campaign.

You know, there you go.

Once we get past the Bud Light thing, we can go on and, you know, higher callings of getting your book into the Met as opposed to Bud Light out of the stores or something. I have a question first about meditation. So I got the impression that you're not a big meditator. Is that true?

Yep.

But how do I put that together with the fact that you're all about mindfulness and appreciating the senses and all this kind of stuff? It would seem to me that someone who's so into the five senses would totally be into meditation. What's the disconnect that I'm not getting?

Well, I've tried meditation twice for months at a time. I really have tried it. And so it's just not a tool that works for me. And I know many people. My college roommate meditates like, three hours a day and more if she sometimes. And so I know people. Dan Harris, who, you know, wrote 10% happier and really persuaded me to give it another try. I had tried it, didn't like it. He persuaded me to try it again. Again, I did it for months. It's just not a tool that works for me. And I think no tool fits every hand. And again, I think that part of it is, accept yourself and expect more from yourself. And I was like, this is just not something that I find to be useful. Let me use that time and energy towards something that I enjoy more. Now, many people, and I've argued with Dan about this too, they will say, well, you're walking around the Met. You're taking in the world through your five senses. That is a kind of meditation. Yeah, to me. Well, maybe it's a definitional thing, but to me, meditation is an attempt to discipline the mind. And I go to the Met in the spirit of recess. I am not trying to discipline my mind. I'm letting my mind roam. I do whatever I feel like. If I want to sit on a bench and look at my phone, fine, I can do that. If I wanted to listen to a podcast, that would be fine, too. Usually I don't want to, but I could. I could do anything I want. And even as I'm trying to dial into my five senses, I'm not doing it in a, like, tune in. Tune in. Bring back the mind. Bring back the mind. It's More like, hey, this is amazing. Wow. Let me walk through and notice how the soundscape changes when I walk from this place to this page. Just enjoy it. But if my mind wanders and I think about something else, that's fine. I'm not trying to bring back the way that you do with meditation. And people are like, well, what about the 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 meditation? Absolutely do the 5, 4, 3, two, one meditation. That doesn't happen to be the way that I want to engage with my five senses. But that doesn't mean that it's not an excellent way for other people to do it. It's just not the only way. And I do think that sometimes people have this idea that if we're talking about something like mindfulness, we're talking about something very disciplined and something kind of effortful. And what I want to remind people is like, this is happening all around us. We can tap into it, we can explore it, we can play with it, we can talk about it. We can engage with it in a way where it doesn't have to be onerous and demanding. Not that there's not value in doing it in the demanding way, but it's not the only way. And so, yeah, I'm not a meditator. Maybe I'll try it again because I got so many people telling me, oh, you got to meditate. So far, it's not something that works for me.

As I was reading your book, I never got the impression that you were recommending something that required great discipline and onerous efforts or anything. I was always getting the impression that this book is about, no pun intended, removing the scales from your eyes. And to me, I took it as it never occurred to me to pay such attention to senses. So she's not forcing me to adopt a new discipline. She's opening up a new way of appreciating the world, which is very different.

Yeah, it's funny, someone pointed out to me I hadn't noticed this about my own work, which is funny. So I wrote a book called Better than Before that's all about habit formation. And it's about the 21 strategies we can use to make or break our habits. And habit formation is, by its nature, an effort. Like, you're either trying to get yourself to do something or you're getting yourself to stop doing something. But one of the strategies, the most popular strategy is the strategy of treats. And this is the idea that if you're trying to get yourself to do something or stop doing something, most people need to have treats. They need to have some way of getting energy. And this is not a reward. This is not something that you've earned or you have to justify. This is just something that you get because you want it. You love crossword puzzles, so you do a crossword puzzle every morning because you love it. And that's just a little treat. And so somebody was saying, like, maybe the whole book of Life in Five Senses is a way to give yourself healthy treats through the five senses. Because it's all about tap into this, have fun with this. This is such a great way to, like, get, like, bring something in to energize yourself. And so I thought that's interesting because I'm all about discipline in my study of habits, but this book really is different. And so I think that is where. How can we use discipline at sometimes, but then also give ourselves a break from discipline and why that can actually help us to be disciplined in other ways?

In the History of the Remarkable People podcast, you were the third person to mention this concept of treats. So first was Bob Cialdini. Second was Katie Milkman. And then you could make the argument that Julia Cameron, also with the Artist Date, that is a form of treat. So maybe you're the fourth person. So, you know, treats are in.

Yeah, yeah. Because I think it's part of human nature. And the problem is, if you don't give yourself a healthy treat, you're probably going to give yourself an unhealthy treat. Because at a certain point, we say, I need it. I deserve it. After the day I've put up with, I have to have, like, we're trying to bring ourselves back into balance. We're trying to give ourselves, like, a little jolt of energy. And so I think it's really important to think about what is it, because you don't want to get yourself into a place of depletion where you start to reach for an unhealthy treat. And that's very tempting.

So care to wrap up? Just pitch your book. I loved it. So tell people why they should read your book.

Thank you. I think a lot of people feel stuck in their head, and they feel like the moment is passing them by, and they're not appreciating it, they're not noticing it, and they're looking for a way to connect with the world or with other people or with themselves. And the five senses is just something that's all around us all the time. And you don't need to make an appointment. You don't need to buy something. It's there right away. So what I talk about what I tried in the book Life in Five Senses isn't that important. I think what it does is it gets people thinking about the kinds of things they would like to do in their own life. So it just seems like people think of a bunch of things that they are really interested in doing. Whether it's like cryotherapy or planning 10 new hikes to do over the fall. It just seems to set people's imaginations running in a very concrete way. Because sometimes you're like, I would like to be more mindful or I would like to appreciate the moment, but you don't really know exactly how to do it. But I think by thinking about the five senses, a lot of times you start to think about a lot of things that you're very excited to try, and there's just like an energy and a comfort that comes from that. It is sort of a gratitude practice that we're really noticing the beauty of the world in all its evanescence. So that's what I would hope people would gain from reading Life in Five Senses.

And let me confirm that they absolutely would gain that by reading it. So thank you very much, Gretchen.

Oh, well, thank you. I so enjoyed our conversation.

Gretchen's ability to distill complex issues with levity and clarity is truly remarkable. Let's embrace the power of habits and unlock the true potential of our senses. Remember to explore Gretchen's books, podcasts, and the happier app so that you can continue your journey towards a happier, more fulfilling and remarkable life. I'm Guy Kawasaki. This is remarkable, people. My thanks to Peg Fitzpatrick, Jeff C. Madison Nismer, Shannon Hernandez, Alexis Nishimura, and Louise Hangton Magana. Until next time, mahalo and aloha. Oh, one more thing. I have kept my phone monochrome and I swear I sleep better because of this. I don't exactly have scientific proof of that, but this is something you might want to try. Now, you would think that changing your iPhone's display display to monochrome would be in, of course, settings display. But no, it's not. So before you make yourself crazy, let me tell you how you get to it in your iPhone. You go to settings, then accessibility, I kid you not, I kid you not. Then display and text size and you scroll all the way to the bottom and you click on color filters and there you select grayscale. If that is not the most convoluted way to make your iPhone monochrome, it's remarkably bad. Anyway, give it a shot. This is remarkable. People.