Karen Mullarkey: Photo Editor

Foreign.

I'm Guy Kawasaki and this is remarkable, people. This episode's guest is not merely remarkable, she's also been called a national treasure because of her work as a photo editor for Life, Newsweek, Psychology Today, Sports Illustrated, and Rolling Stone. The Let me repeat that list. Life, Newsweek, Psychology Today, Sports Illustrated, and Rolling Stone. Her name is Karen Malarkey. She launched the career of many of the most famous photographers in the world. You're going to hear stories about Annie Leibovitz, Richard Avedon, Gordon Parks, Herb Ritz, Anna Wintour and Catherine Graham. Her interview was so remarkable that I created a list of references to the people and topics that she mentions.

You.

You can peruse this list@the remarkablepeople.com post for this episode. I conducted this interview by phone while she was vacationing. So you'll get to hear cardinals chirping in the trees and the answering machine ringing where she was staying. When is the last time you heard an answering machine ring? Here's a challenge for you. If you know of anyone who has pictures of two women at Christo's Running Fence in June or July 1976, those pictures may have been taken by Richard Avedon. It would be epic to use social media to find those pictures. I'm Guy Kawasaki and this is Remarkable people. And now here is Karen Malarkey. What exactly does a photo editor do?

You wear many hats. Okay. If you're running a department like I was, part of you is like a matchmaker. When you're assigning a photographer to a particular story, you're looking for not just their ability as a shooter, but you're looking for to match their personality into what you perceive to be the personality of the subject. And really what you're dealing with is a level of casual intimacy. You're making a short term marriage. And when you make the right combination, the work is spectacular because the subject immediately relates to the photographer. The photographer gets who the subject is and they form this intimate relationship. Doesn't necessarily have to have a huge long span, but when it works, it's terrific. So that's one of the hats you wear. And that requires you to really have done your research on what you're sending the photographer to shoot. Now, my experience was always with film in the beginning. I mean, I started working at Life magazine in the mid-60s, so the director of photography there. So everything was film. So the next thing you have to be able to do is to go through the work and be able to. Mr. Pollard, who was the head of Life, told me once, when you're looking in among the rocks, there are always pearls. And when you see them, they'll jump out at you. So your next part is to begin to go through the film and look for those images that just make you stop and begin to think about, as you pull those out, how you make a story, and that every story has a beginning, a middle, and an end. And when you've sent the photographer out, you kind of give them your take on what you think this story is about. And then I always. The last line was, I need this. And then once you've got that done, then surprise me. So you're always looking for that moment where you're surprised, because that's what will make readers stop and look at that picture and want to go back to it. And that, of course, is the beauty of still photography, in that when it's really great, it burns the image in your brain and you do not forget it.

Now, what does it mean when you're sending a photographer into harm's way? How do you cope with that?

It is never easy. And you're sending. You only want to send people who are seasoned and smart and will know how to control their adrenaline and not take ridiculous risks. But there's no way you can guarantee anything in those kinds of situations. And in some ways, you know, you hold your breath. I was really fortunate. While at Newsweek, I had a couple of people kidnapped, but I never had anybody die. And they were released. One was kidnapped by the Shining Path, and those guys don't usually release anybody. And one was captured by Hezbollah, but they both got released. And so you worry about it all the time, and you monitor the situation carefully. And if you think this person is taking unnecessary risks and they've lost that part of the brain that would say, gee, maybe this isn't a good idea. When they lose, that is oftentimes when they get wounded and lose their life. I mean, there are a lot of examples of that.

Do you think you would have become this national treasure of photography if you did not know how to type, take dictation, and make martinis?

Never. Never. Given how I started as the secretary to the director of photography at Life magazine, I wasn't even the first secretary. I was the second secretary. The secretary secretary, in a way. But she couldn't type. She was. She was a tiger at British. And no one got in his office right without going past her. However, she didn't type or take dictation. And when I got out of college, the only three questions I was asked were, how many words a minute? Do you type? How fast is your dictation? And do you make good coffee, honey? And I only knew how to make coffee. So I had to go to secretarial school for six weeks and just focus like a laser beam. And even then I couldn't get a job. And eventually I got enough jobs that I wound up at Life magazine. But, you know, I. You know, and then I. Then I. Then the hands of fate came. And Mr. Pollard turned out to be my mentor. And he saw something in me I didn't see. But he took me under his wing. And that's how I started editing. One day he said to me, are you happy? And I said, I could be happier. And he said, really? Doing what? And I truly wanted to pull those words back out of the air. And I said, anything you take the time to teach me. And that's when he took me in this back room that had all the reject, reject, reject film. He'd been through the picture collection, been everywhere. And that's when he told me to put together, find this set number, find all the bags, come back, and you're going to make a picture story. And that's when he told me, in the rocks you'll find pearls. And if they jump out and bite you, you'll know it. And that's how I'll know if you've got an eye. And I passed that test a number of times. And then he gave me the different photographers. Gordon Parks was a teacher. Carl Meydens was a teacher. And, you know, sent me to the live studio. And the boys taught me how to make a martini, which was extremely important, they said, for my education. And it was. It was. You know, I used. It was a different time, you know, but I was very. I. And then one day he gave me to Ralph Morse, who was Mr. Astronaut photographing the monkeys up. Did the famous shot of the original seven in their silver suits. So he said, ralph, I'm giving you a gift. I'm giving you the kid here for. As a Christmas present. And she can drive. So down I went with him down to Florida, to Cape Kennedy, Cape Canaveral. And I was. Because I could drive the film to Orlando. And I. I could run. I learned how to run the Teletype machine. And I learned how to. I got the rooms in the cars and I kept the wives separate from the mistresses. And I. And I wound up shooting on the VIP side. And I. Eventually, by the time they were going to go to the moon, he had me produce the whole photography and of.

Life'S Coverage you don't seem. And you can correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't seem outraged that you were asked questions about typing, dictation, making martinis, nor were you referred to as a gift, as if your property.

No, I understand that. I understand that. But at the time. You have to understand the time. And also I. You know, I was brought up as a nice young girl, right? And I. I never thought there was anything. I mean, I realized what he meant he was making. It was a gift. You know what I mean? I realized that getting to work with Ralph, who was the most generous and lovely man and didn't have a sexist bone in his body, I understood it was a gift. I was. I was getting Ralph. You want to know what the gift was? I was getting Ralph. I was getting to have that teacher being asked. Tony, that's the time frame we're talking. 1964 is when I got out of college. This was common. You had two options. You could become a secretary or stewardess, and I was too tall to be a stewardess, which was, of course, what I wanted to be. I was like dandelion fluff. I always say that. Until I came across Mr. Pollard. And somehow he saw that I was smarter than I thought I was, than I believed. I was really pretty shy. And he. He did not have a sexist bone in his body. And as a matter of fact, he made it clear that he called it Pollard's girls. The young women who work for Pollard, they were off limits. There'd be no hanky pankies. Nobody better try anything or we'd report him. And I had a couple of events there that now, you know, would qualify for the me too moment. And my answer was always the same. Didn't you know Mr. Pollard's girls were off limits? Do you need me to tell him about this? And boom. That was never happened again. That was it. But that was the. That was what? You know, people ask me, did you watch admin TV show? And I always said, no, I didn't watch that because I lived it. I didn't have to watch it.

That's how I feel about when people ask me, did you watch the Apple movie about Steve Jobs?

I don't need to.

I was there. I don't need to.

Yeah. Would you like to see the lacerations on my back?

You mentioned Jane Goodall earlier in the interview. And I don't know if you realize this, but you have a very strong common point with Jane Goodall. She was my first guest on this podcast and the reason that the Leakeys hired her was because she had secretarial skills. That's how she got into the leaky organization.

I completely understand that, because in our timeframe, that was the entry level. And I had learned before I got to Pollard, actually, how to be. I wanted to be the best secretary they ever had. And there was, at one point, I was working in Fortune ad sales before Mr. Pollard. And I basically told the two guys, those guys all like to go out. Those were ad salesmen. They would like to drink a lot. That was all part of that scene. And I basically said to them, I'll do your business, and you can get as junk as you want, but I'm going to be the best secretary you ever had. But I need a raise every six months. And the day you don't remember that is the day I leave. And that's exactly what happened. They forgot 16 months and I left. And that's one of the reasons I.

No.

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Just like that.

Boom. I said to him, you guys, did you think I was kidding? And I had, by this time, made friends with the guy who was the head of the HR department at Life. I mean, excuse me, and. Wonderful guy was first African American to have a big job there. Called him a vice president of hr. And he actually sent me down to the picture collection because he wanted me to gather some pictures. I believe it was about Dr. King. And I found the picture collection, and I just fell in love with it. And having put those pictures together well, is how he sent me to Pollard. Mr. Pollard was looking for a second secretary at the time, which I was really good at, and that's how I got that opening.

So.

And the two guys from Fortune said, wait, no, you can't. I said, you gave me your word. You gave me your word. And you didn't keep it.

Just for clarification. So you're saying that you left that position supporting the two salespeople because they didn't give you a raise, and then you got to work for Richard Pollard?

Yeah. And in a roundabout way, I wound up needing a job. And I think his name was Trent. Mr. Trent. I'm searching for his name. He was the man who ran hr, and he had me do this project for him. And then once I did that, well, I could have been a floater or whatever, but I wasn't working for those two guys anymore. And then the opening in Pollard's office came up, and he sent me on that.

So looking back, what are the career lessons about your start at life. What's the wisdom there?

There's no whining. There's absolutely no whining. Oh, their answering machine is going, I'm.

Sorry if that slice of real life.

It's a slice of real life because I'm in someone else's apartment house and I can't do anything about it. So first thing I learned is there's no whining and there is no job too small or there's no job that's really beneath you and there's no job too small. That you shouldn't just do it brilliantly, and that she should always try to make it right the first time. And everybody makes mistakes, but you try really hard not to make the same one twice. And the other one is ask questions. If you're not sure what you've been asked to do, ask questions until you get it right. Until you understand. Exactly. And be humble when you ask. It's like, I don't. I don't quite understand what you're asking me to do. That a smile works so much better that you all. You can. You get to jump ugly this later. But it's always better if you start out not on that foot. If you start out nice, okay, you can always go to the other side. But you don't want to go there unless you really have to.

There may be hundreds, hopefully even thousands of millennials who just heard your advice and their minds are doing backflips because everything you said is probably contrary to what they believe. How the world should work well, but.

That'S not how the world works. It's the problem. I coach students one on one, and I always lay down a couple of ground rules. And I would say, you know, you don't have to come back if you don't want to. But this is. These are the ground rules. There's no whining at all. Can't bear it. Would prefer you didn't tell me how you know that you're dumb and start out sentences with negatives. Basically. I talk, you listen, then you talk, I listen, but I always get to talk first. I've earned that right. Okay. When I was Mr. Pollard's secretary, I did not talk first. I listened. He talked first. I never went in his office till he opened this sliding door. That was my. He'd moved me around into this little area, and he'd open the door from the inside. I never would go in there until he'd done that. He was ready then to deal with me. I would find my. He got in at some Wretchedly early hour. And all the stuff he wanted me to write. And it would just be a name of a person on a piece of brown paper and four points. And I'd write the letter. And because I could take dictation, I sat in his office when he got deals with the Associated Press, when he wrote contracts, when he did everything. And I was the court reporter, so I learned how to write a contract, I learned how to cut a deal. And then when they would leave, he would say, what do you think of that? And I'd say, I think you could have gotten more money out of Mr. Buell, who was the head of the Associated Press. And he'd say, really? What do you think I could have gotten? I think you could have gotten another thousand dollars. He said, well, try to get that. So I would read back the transcript to Mr. Buell. And I would just tack on it afterwards. $1,000. And. Because he didn't like people swearing in front of me. But, you know, those guys all. Did everybody drop the F word? F bomb. Constantly. So. And I would take everything down, and Al dropped it. And Pollard said, hal, I don't want you to use that language when Karen's in the room. And blah, blah, blah. Jesus Christ. You know, whatever. You know. How. So I had it verbatim. So I would read it, and I was. And he would say, are you sure that meant. I said, oh, yeah. No, see. Then you said, da, da, da. Mr. Pollard said, I don't want you to use. Which bubba. Then you said. And buh, buh, buh. And then they came. Then you came to the agreement. I tacked on the grand. And I went right down. And then he said, oh, okay, fine. I type it up, and I went into Mr. Pollard and I said, I got that thousand doll.

Oh, my God.

Bobby Baker Burroughs, who was at that time Bobby Baker, who went on to be the picture editor of Life, never left Life. She and I were the closest and best of friends. She was short and blonde. I was tall and thin and brunette. And we were the Mutt and Jeff, and we got away with murder. And Pollard adored us. And we could. But we worked so hard.

Okay.

It was exciting. It was. You know, it was exciting. You were surrounded by smart, interesting people who'd had such phenomenal lives. And you just wanted to be a sponge and soak it up, ask questions. So I. All these young students I deal with, you know, they come in thinking it's gonna. They're gonna do it their way. And I have to. One of the lessons I teach them is that is not how the world works and that is not how you're going to be successful. You know, once you get a lot of experience, then you can afford to be a little bit arrogant, but you better be able to back that up. Arrogance and stupidity are oftentimes together. That's a bad combination. It's an ironic combination, a nasty combination.

One more life question, which is you have to please tell the story of the picture of the Martin Luther King assassination.

Oh, it's a sad story.

Yes.

Well, I was still. Mr. Probably. I was still the second secretary, whatever. And that was 1968. And I have to tell you, that was the worst year. I never went to bed that year really was Always the only good thing that happened that year is that they went around the moon around Christmas time. Frank Borman, that was the one good event. But if you look at what happened in 68, it was mind boggling. So Dr. King is murdered in Memphis. And there was a young man named Joseph Lowe who was with the group that was traveling with Dr. King. And he was sort of as an intern, he was there and he was connected to the Public Broadcasting Company. And I something tells me he was here from South Africa. Something about him was also unique. Anyway, he is there when this catastrophic event occurs, and he takes pictures. Then he calls his boss at PBS and tells him what has transpired and what he has. That person knew Phil Kunhart very well. Mr. Kunhart was one of the assistant managing editors, and that name is fairly well known now because I think it's his grandson who produces all these great television things, as his son did, too. Peter. So anyway, Phil gets this call and buys the film sight unseen, which was very common. And it's something you have to learn to do and have nerves of steel when you do it. I did it at Newsweek. It's a scary proposition. So he bought it sight unseen. So the decision was that this kid was going to fly to Newark Airport and someone would meet him. And it was determined I would be that person. I didn't ask for it. I was just, I was picked right? Send her same period. And so I go to Newark Airport. In those days, you could take a cab from New York to Newark, but you had to take a Jersey cab back. There was no round tripping. So New York cabbies didn't like to even go there, okay, because they were never going to get a fare back. So I, I get a cab and I have a rolled up Life magazine and I'm told this is a young African American guy named Joseph Lowe. And I have to meet his plane and I have to get him in a cab back to Life magazine. Now this is going to be somewhat in the middle of the night, right? And that. And then I'm not to walk in the building if I don't have the film on my person. So I go and I'm walking around with a rolled up Life magazine. I have a driver who I tell him if he will wait for me, I'll give him 50 bucks. They gave me enough money and that was a lot of money, 1968. And I said, just don't leave. I don't want to be looking for a job. I just want to come out, be with you. You're going to take me back. So I walk around and sure enough, he finds me because I've got the Life magazine and we exchanged. And he's nice young man and shell shocked, right? And he, Dr. Jean was a, you know, a hero for him. He was the everything. So I get him in the taxi and we start to head back and I, and I'm, you know, saying to him, oh, and I meant this too. You poor guy. What an awful experience. So stunning, Awful, awful, you know, how are you doing? Where's the film? And then they keep, I keep talking in every other word I say to him, and where's the film, Joe? Have you got the film? Oh, yes. He goes, I've got the film. I said, why don't you hand me the film then we. That'll all be taken care of. He goes, I have it, but I processed it because I was afraid they might take the can, the canister, you know, the. Might be stopped at the airport. I said, well, you processed it. It's incredible. Where, where is it? And he goes, I taped it to my chest. Said, really? And he had, and he had. What he had done is taken the manila envelope, you're an 8 by 10 envelope, and cut strips of the manila envelope, put the process of each roll, you know, each frame, each not frame, you know, one through whatever, in a sleeve of the manila envelope and had taped that to his chest, okay? So it was like he was a walking contact sheet. And I, I said, really? You did? Oh my God, how remarkably clever. And I start to undo the buttons on his shirt. And I'm saying, show me, show me how you did that. That's so, so. How smart of you. How incredible. That's incredible. I'm taking his clothes off and the cab driver is panicking because he thinks I'm about to do Some other deed in the thing. And he starts yelling, not in my cab. And I say to him, I'm not going to do that. Just drive. And I have $50 for you. So by the time I get Joe's shirt open, sure enough, it's all there. And the great good thing was, he did not have any chest hair. Because while we're talking and I'm telling you, I am ripping each one of those off, and I'm saying, let's get this off your body, because you could be perspiring, right? I'm gathering all of them, and now I have all of them in the bag and buttoning his shirt back up. And the whole time we're doing this, I'm saying to him, I feel so terrible for you. Don't you worry when you get to life, we're going to take care of you. Everything's going to be taken care of. You're going to be okay. Everything's going to be fine. All on that line. And I meant it. And I'm kind of, you know, gently rubbing his back and whatever while I'm with my right hand ripping everything off. So I get. We get to the building. I give the guy the $50. He can't believe what's just taking place in his cab. And we go into the building, and I take him up to the floor. I think it's the 29th floor filming. And we walk into Mr. Cunard's office, and I put Joe in front of me and behind him, I just hold up my thumb like, you know, I got it. And I say, you know, introduce. And Ella, Dan, I, mister, will take care of you. Now, I have something I have to do, and. Which was? I walked it down. I did not put it on the dumbwaiter. I walked it into the lab, and they made the contact sheet. And that's where that picture comes from of everybody pointing. Wow. Wow. And that's how that happened. There's another part of that story which involves Bill Epridge. And so we're looking at the film after the contact sheets. This is a couple of days later, and Bill Epperch is there, and we're looking at the contact sheets. And he says to me, you could tell he's an amateur. I said, what do you mean, he's an amateur? He said, he did not take a picture until they covered up Dr. King's head. He's an amateur. Good, but an amateur. And I say to him, now, this is April. I say to him, do you mean to tell me if Bobby Kennedy was Shot in front of you, you would not instinctively try to help him. Because I knew how close he was to Bob Kennedy. He was one of the photographers who covered Kennedy constantly, and they worked with friends. And he looked at me. He said, no, I would not, because my job is to take the picture. The editors here, their job is to edit. My job is not to edit in the camera. My job is to record it. And then we jump to June and Bobby's shot, and Ecbridge makes that extraordinary photograph of him on the floor of the kitchen. Wow. And there were maybe four frames out of focus on that contact sheet. And I learned. I learned to listen. And the lesson was, Epperch was right. His job was to record the event and not to edit in the camera. And that that would be done in the home office. And I learned the difference between a pro and an amateur.

Shift gears again. Okay, Rolling Stone. So first question. Is it accurate to say that you got your job at Rolling Stone because you cleaned up Annie Leibovitz's mess?

Not. No, no, I would not say that. I would not say that.

Okay?

Because it wasn't Annie's mess. It was the photo department's mess.

Okay?

This was not her mess. Truly. No. You know, what I encountered was a mess that was not of her making, but which impacted her work. Okay. Okay. Annie was not. Annie had her own faults in that time frame, but sloppy with her stuff was not one of them. And what I discovered was that somebody who was his. Her printer had kept negatives. Her negatives in a box that was under. There was a small little place to develop work prints. Okay? I mean, her work was processed by a lab called Chang Lee in San Francisco. That's where her stuff was processed. Her black and white. And then the contacts would come, but they were not filed. Well, this was not Annie's fault. This was the fault of the photo department that had no idea how to be a photo department. I mean, I had been trained someplace where I knew how negatives were numbered. And this was. I mean, it was a tight ship. And what I came when I was walking around to see everything as I stumbled on this box that was under the sink where the water was running. And I asked what was in the box? And the young man who went on to be a fairly famous photographer said to me, oh, they're Annie's negs. And I said, really? Under this thing? And why are they there? And he said, because it's so much easier to get to them. And I went into the photo department, and they had a Fireproof five drawer cabinet that had a combination, and it was fireproof. And there were other file cabinets that weren't. But in the fireproof filing cabinet with the combination were headshots one shots from record companies. You know, 810 glossies. That's all that was in there. Anti stuff was in another. Another cabinet. And I. I just thought, my God. Right? And I had yet to actually meet her. She was on the summit in South Africa doing Arnold Schwarzenegger for the last of the Mr. Olympia. So when I started, she wasn't there. But I took all those glossies and I just threw them on the floor and I put her stuff in the filing cabinet that was fireproof and I began to organize it. But it was not her fault that it wasn't organized. It was the fact that inept people were in charge of the photo department. And, you know, it all started as, you know, hey, it's fun. Let's go there and get a job and be, you know, and just play. I mean, I knew how to play, but I had been trained differently.

Wasn't the proposal that you and Annie and I don't know, we're gonna come in some weekend and clean it up?

Oh, well, that was before. See, before I would take them when I. I went there and I interviewed on my way up north. I had been working at Psychology Today in Southern California in Del Mar, and had been living sort of the surfer hippie life. And then they decided to go back to New York, and we chose not to go. The art department chose not to go. And so I needed a job. And I. I had a 55 VW and I had a boyfriend who lived up in Harborville, and he was an artist. And so I was on my way, driving up there. I went as far as San Francisco. I stayed with my cousins, and I stopped in to see if I could. They might have a job. It was also, you know, that's exactly how you got a job there. And then. And what do you do? And I'm a picture editor. And, well, how do we know? And I said, why don't you bring me a contact sheet, a loop and a grease pencil? And they did. And I marked it up. And I said, well, look, I gotta go. I have to get on the road, but I'll stop in on my way back. And I stopped in on my way back. And the person who had been in the art department said to me, well, you really do know how to edit. I said, oh, yeah. And he goes, well, we. You could. You could use. You And I said, well, I'm not so sure. And that's when I walked around and saw what a mess it was, but didn't take the job. And I went home and I got a phone call from Jan Winter down in San Diego when I'm living in this little shack for 75 bucks. And says to me, listen, I have a great idea. Because, you know, I had said, this place is a catastrophe when I was up there. What a mess. So he called basically and said, I have an idea. Why don't you come up here and Annie, you and I will work for the weekend, and we'll put everything in order. And my response was, well, that's an option. I said, but here's another one which I think would have the exact same results. We could put three elephants in there, close the door for the weekend, and we'd come back and the same amount of stuff would be on the floor. Cause I didn't care, you know, I mean, I figured. I figured something out. I was doing. I was doing producing commercial work for the guys from Magnum, you know, because they all wanted to shoot in San Diego in the winter. It was always great. And I. When I'd been working for Psychology Today, I would find people off the street to be the models for the pictures. I mean, I had. I was really good at producing stuff. So I thought, well, I don't want it. And I knew about him. And. And so I thought. And I said to know. Here's the thing. I couldn't possibly. I said, I've got all this experience. I'd be really good, but I have to do it my way. But that's okay. If you don't want to, it's fine. And then he called back in a couple of days and said, oh, okay. And that's how it started. But I really did not meet Annie until after I was working there. And she got back from South Africa. And when she was down there, I kept hoping to. Against all hope that she would photograph Arnold like a piece of meat. So I'd see, like, the calf picture of that and this just pieces of his body besides the obvious portraits and stuff she would do. And so when the film came in and it was being processed and I got to look at it, I was thrilled. I did not want to call her and introduce my. She knew that I'd been hired, and she knew my background was life. So she was a little anxious about me. I was thoroughly anxious about her because I thought she was brilliant. And I knew she could be difficult. And so we Were both a little wary of each other in the beginning, but we worked that out. It only took one little encounter and then we were the same height. Yeah, I was six feet in those days. So was. She had not. And I by this, you know. And she was nervous because I had worked with all those live photographers and I had by that time learned how to speak up. So we had one little moment and then I basically told her that what I thought I could offer her and that was that I. I could see that she didn't understand lighting and things like that. No, she didn't. She was just too. She was in st. Sensual instinct is extraordinary technically. At that time, at that time of her young career, that was nothing that she had mastered how to set up lights. Some people understand all the technical stuff and they. They shoot a perfectly lit, boring picture. Annie had the other skill set that was of course makes her so remarkable is her intuition of when to push the button was spot on. But she didn't understand how to set up lights or in the studio situation. She hadn't been trained in that. So I told her I would hire assistants for that. And I said to her, you can eat them for lunch, they're a dime a dozen. But you will learn, that's what I can do for you. And I will try to edit well and da, da, da. And you know what you're going to do for me. And she said, what? And I said, you're going to teach me to see better. And I think it's a perfect give and take relationship. That's what you will give me and this is what I will give you. And how can we go wrong now? Think about it. Don't say anything because we've been a little testy with each other. I said, think about it and then come back and tell me what you think. And she came back and said, I think it's a great idea. I said, should we shake on it? She said, yeah, that's the last argument we ever had and ever.

How did she teach you to see?

Oh, because her work was so unusual because she hated to stand where anybody else was. She saw pictures, she saw, you know, no one else shot Dan Rather sitting on the rolled up carpet when Nixon was being taken off. Nobody shot that. She did. She could suit the way she understood people and it was in her intuition was phenomenal. Plus she'd studied art. You know, she initially, when she went to the Art Institute, it wasn't to be a photographer, it was to be a painter. She had great painterly instincts and she just. I mean, I would look at her work, and I was just like, God, nobody. She just hated standing where anybody else was. That's best way I can put it. And I thought. So I saw that she had an. An offbeat way of shooting that was different from how news people would shoot. You know what I mean? And that certain kinds of pictures of hers might not have made it in the Life magazine I grew up with right now. They. Then later they would. But. So I saw that about her work, and I was. It was wonderful to look at her pictures, and I would be able to tell her what was. She'd be on assignment somewhere, and I'd look at this, and I'd say, I think the lead singer probably used to be with the lead guitarist, but I think she's Stuppy. The drummer, right? Something like that. And she would say to me, shuju, you're right. I think it's time to put color in the camera. We did not shoot that much. We did not run that much color in those days. You know, we were on toilet paper, basically, newsprint. And so it was important to shoot, like, for covers and stuff, to try to shoot in pastel tones, because if it was too saturated, it would just, you know, soak in and not. Not be good. So she just. But she. I still say that she has. Her intuitive sense of what makes a composition is spectacular, really. And I was. It just. It was a great learning experience. We had a lot of fun. We behaved badly. We. Oh, God. You know, it was rock and roll. It was the 70s. Everything you've heard about that period is true.

Did you have a.

Probably underplayed. Probably underplayed.

Did you have a role in the John Lennon. Yoko Ono shot?

No. The one where she's. He's naked?

Yes.

No. I had left the magazine by then, and as a matter of fact, I have that as a present from her. I have the four of five of the original prints she made. Wow. Number four or five. Okay. And it's autographed to me with all her love. And she signed it Anna Lou, which is her real name. Wow. Her real name is Anna Lou Libovitz.

Okay, next Rolling Stone question. I think that using the power of social media and the Internet today, we can find either the ladies or the. The children or grandchildren of the ladies who. Who were at the fence that Richard Avedon took the pictures of.

Do you think you could.

I think so. So I want you to tell that that is a great story. I mean, holy cow.

I know. So, Dick Avedon and Jan Winter got together and came up with this idea which was to be done for the bicentennial in 1970. 1976. And it was called the Family. I don't know, I'm not privy to know whether it was Jan's idea, he took it to Dick Avedon, or whether Dick Avedon had the idea and told Jan about it. That I do not know. But I do know between the two of them, they came up with this brilliant idea. And Avedon was going to travel everywhere and photograph the movers and Shakers and his 810 camera. And, you know, wonderful pictures. The ties are phenomenal. And anyway, once this is done, he is coming to San Francisco to work on the layout. And he didn't know us and, you know, he wanted maybe be here to help him be a fightler who was really talented art director in New York, because he didn't know us. But when he got there and he met Roger Black, he was like, oh, this. This is wonderful. And I was really nervous about meeting him, thinking, you know, I'm this rock and roll princess, whatever. And I was so sure he was going to be I'm Dick Avedon and you're not. That's my line about why. About a national treasure makes me nervous. Because what I learned from Dick Avedon, who is a national treasure, right, was that he did not do I'm Dick Avedon and you're not. Okay, right? Yeah. And a lot of the really great ones that I knew never did that. I mean, that's, you know, that's like people who have a lot of money don't talk about it. Who were brought up with a lot of money. Old money never talks about money. So I. We get to know each other and, you know, we have this funny little encounter. And I have him in my 55 VW and he thinks I'm going to kill him because he's never been in a car that has nothing. You know, it had nothing. It had a horn in the middle and it had an Allen wrench on the bottom. You needed to turn that so you'd have gas. So I planned, after we spent some time together, I planned a luncheon in Mill Valley. My housemate was a photographer, a tabletop photographer, really good food photographer, well known at that time. And so I had a luncheon and I had salmon. It was out on the deck. It was beautiful in Mill Valley. It was a lovely luncheon. And a couple of the guests there were from the art department and one of them was the art director, Roger Black's. Susan Hemptel, who was Roger's assistant. And she and I used to like to take mushrooms. Okay. And so after lunch and we decide we know about the fence, right? And so we think it'll be fun. Let's drive out there. And so Barton is going to drive his Mercedes or whatever and we're all going to go in that car. And Susie and I thought, well, let's just for dessert, let's have some mushrooms. So we get in, we all drive out to the thing and the fence. And Avedon sees the fence and this was the crystal fence that came out of the Pacific Ocean and went directly east through Marin county, then the west part of Marin, which was unpopulated and quite beautiful, and went all the way over to Highway 101. Okay. It was spectacular. And we went to the far western end of it and the sun was about, you know, was getting close to sunset. And Abaddon saw it and went crazy and said he couldn't believe that Vogue did not have him come and do a fashion shoot against the fence. How was that possible? How. And he was just railing on about it and this was the worst thing. He couldn't believe that they were that stupid. And, you know, and so we're standing there and Bartone is with us and Lawrence Barton, my housemate, and says, he says, women are standing by the fence and they've got one of those little point and shoot cameras. And they said, would somebody take our picture in front of the fence? And Avedon goes, oh, I'll do that, I'll do that. So he takes the point and shoot. And he always, whenever he was shooting, he'd put his glasses up on his forehead, up high, right? And of course, he's used to shooting a large format camera where everything's upside down and backwards, right on a glass plate or something. So he takes this camera and he realizes he has no idea how to use it. And he turns to Bertone and goes, how does this work? How does this work? So it works. This is how it works. He goes, and we don't use his name and he goes over and these women have like half a roll of film and he just poses them constantly different ways and shoots the, shoots the out of it, right? Just shoots everything that in his mind he would have liked to have done. He's doing horizontals and verticals and this and coming in tight and back and. And when it's done, he hands them back the camera and they're just like, wow, they're so excited. No, no, I'LL take one more. He's like this. And they hand them back the camera and off they go. And they never know they were photographed by Richard Avenue.

I think we should try to find those boys.

And then, of course, we take the last helicopter ride, he and I. There's room for just two. And we're taking that. And he is just going crazy for. And the sun is setting, and I am peeking on mushrooms. This will find the butt rolling stuff. And he's going, man, the light is amazing. I'm going, amazing. You don't know how amazing this light is. Oh, my God. But that was a classic, you know, Rolling Stone story. That's what it was like in Rolling Stone. That's why I say, somebody once called me up, they were going to do a story on Annie during our period. And I called her up, this was after I'd left there. And I said, annie, they want us to. Want me to talk about, you know, that whole period and what went on there. And she cleaned up and all that. And she said. I said, I don't know if I wanted. They want to talk about cocaine. They want to talk. And she said, I've already talked about it, so there's no big deal. I said, well, yeah, but she's got kids on the. No, no, go right ahead. So the gal, I say to her on the phone, she's from the Boston Globe or someplace, and I say, what year were you born? And she goes, 74 or something. I said, oh, 75. And I'm thinking, well, you know, in that time frame, you know, I joined the rolling stone. 74. I mean, everybody was doing cocaine. I mean, it was just. The streets were paved with it. And it was. You name the industry, they had sugar bowls of it, right? And everybody was smoking. It's just what was going on then. And I said, if I were to try to tell you about this time, you know, it reminds me of. Is my parents lived through the Depression and they used to tell me stories about how desperate times were then and how impossible it was to find work and how food was so shortage and. And this and that. And during the war when I was born and food shortages. And I would listen, but since I never experienced it, I couldn't really understand it. And that would be like my talking to you about this period. You would hear the stories, but unless you lived in that time frame, you wouldn't really be able to understand it. You know, cocaine is one of those drugs that makes you incredibly stupid in which you think you could do it in Front of a cop and it would be just fine. And you know, we used to think it wasn't habit forming. I mean, it's just we were in another planet in those days, but. And some people didn't make it out and some of us did. And we look at that now and we go, who? It wasn't because we were smart, it's just because we were lucky.

With hindsight, you don't think that the drugs enhance creativity and photography?

Well, no, I think that's, you know, I think that's BS but at the time I believed it did. Right at the time, that was one of the reasons that we thought we were so fabulous. But we had that we were a lot of talented people there and we were just all on the same crazy. We were on the same crazy highway together. But I, I do I upon now, if I were to look at that, would I want to go? I mean, I never want to go. You know what I say about my life? I say I never have to say, gee, I wish I had. And I think if you can get to be what I'm going to be, 78 and you don't have, gee, I wish I had. I think you've lived a good life.

Amen. Amen. So now let's go to Newsweek.

Ah, great job.

Okay, tell me, I mean, so far you've had a few great stories for every place. What's your great story about Newsweek?

Boy, I'll have to say that first of all, I was the first woman to ever be hired to do that job at any of the news magazines. So I broke the glass ceiling and they came out and recruited me. At that point, I was working at New York magazine and I had done rock and roll. I was doing fashion in those days with Anna Wintour. Anna was the fashion editor at New York magazine. So when they went to interview me in many different. I went through many interviews. I knew a bit about it, I'd done my homework, and I was nervous about taking the job. And so I asked for a couple of things because I knew I'd be the first woman. And they were bringing me in from the outside. And that had never been done. It was always one of those things through the ranks. You got the job, you'd had a background working for the wires, and it was a man only game. No one else but men had ever run any of those departments. And that's at U.S. news, and that's at Time, and that's at Newsweek. So I wanted it understood that. And this I say, is a Joke. But it was kind of true. I wanted a public coordination. I wanted a great photograph of it. I actually have a great photograph of it. And so I sent that to Mr. Smith, Rick Smith, who hired me. He was the editor in chief and Newsweek was part of the Washington Post. So all of those guys were voted reported to Kathleen Graham, who had broken many a glass ceiling. So basically I said the reason was I knew the culture there had been to treat the photography department badly and to humiliate those people and to consider them third class citizens, not even second class. And that I wanted it to be wanted. This is what I asked for at the last meeting we had. And I said, but I want them to see that I answer only to you. And that includes the assistant managing editors. I only will come there if it's understood. I only answer to you. And that is really important. And that, and that I will meet with all the senior editors and everybody else and I will tell them how excited I am to have the job. And if they have any problem with anybody who works for me at this point, the lab would have worked for me, plus people overseas were working for me. I mean, and that would have been the number of people under me. And I said, and I will go to every one of them and tell them if they have a problem, they must come and tell me or call me and I'll come down and we'll work it out and I'll solve the problem. But that if they pick on anybody who works for me, I will assume they will have done it to me and that that would be a really bad idea because I will wait like a snake in the grass and I will nail them and I will do it in front of you and you will let me. Because you know what? I'll only have to ever do it once and never again. I said, but that way, and I'm going to work, you know. And I wanted to get Roger to come there to be the design director. And I got my people in the art department didn't take me on to make that happen. So we were a cohesive unit. And that's exactly the conversation I had with everybody. And I really only had to do it once, never had to do it again. And that way my, these people that came under me were shell shocked. I mean, they were used to being humiliated and all this stuff. And that stopped. And I basically put each of them in charge of certain things and said, and I, you know, one of the fellows who was going to work for me really wanted the job and was Thinking he would quit. And I knew him from before, and I said, give me six weeks. And if at the end of those six weeks, you weren't happier than you've ever been, I will use every key on my keychain to get you a job. But I think you'll find this is. And nobody downstairs is going to. You know, I won't use the F word, but that's what I said. Nobody's going to do that. Nobody. Because they're going to have to go through me. And that is never going to happen. And so about a month, this person came in and said, you were right. I said, you got it. And that was. We had the most cohesive team. And to the point that Mrs. Graham came to see me one day and closed the door, and literally, I'm not. I don't make this up. She had almost tears in her eyes and said, no one's been able to do this. The photo department, the art department, you're all one. You did this. And I said, I was given the opportunity, but by that time, I'd learned so much. And all along, you know, when I was at New York Magazine, I was starting out young photographers. Between Rolling Stone and New York Magazine, there was a rebirth of look. And that's when I gave Herb Ritz his first work. That's when I found her Brits. Because I was mentored at Life, all I could think about was finding. Passing that along. So all through Rolling Stone, in some ways, I might have been. You know, Annie mentored me. I mentored her. And there were other photographers out there that I gave work to early. Roger Rustmeyer. All sorts of people who had. Were doing rock and roll at that time. And Roger didn't have his name on his contact sheets. I wouldn't give him work until he put his name on everything. You know, I just. I just. This was. I was just paying it back. And finding young talent was just fantastic, Wonderful, wonderful. And just then, see them, you know, Joe McNally, all these people. I started giving Joe his first work. I. I look upon that, and they became every. We all stayed friends, you know. And so there's Doug Manyway. I gave Doug some of his first work, really. He was working for a place called Picture Group. Now he'll tell you a funny story about my making him go get me bourbon before I look at his content. I said, you mean to tell me I've come all the way up to Providence? I say, did, and you don't have any Jack Daniels for me? Are you crazy? And so I looked over at Doug and I said, young man, you need to go get. I know you want me to look at your portfolio. You need to go get me a bottle of Jack Daniels. It was after hours. It was providence. We went to a bar and paid extra to the barman to give him the bottle of Jack Daniels. And he brought it back and put it on the desk. And I thought, this is one resourceful guy. And that's how Doug and I started.

Oh, my God. Well, now I have to ask.

Maybe all of that makes me a national treasure because I was willing to break all the rules.

I'm coming to that conclusion. You gotta tell us at least one Anna Wintour story now.

Oh, Lord. Well, Anna. Anna. Actually, Jerry Oppenheimer wrote about this situation. It's in his book about Anna. She had perfected the art of being a brat to a fine art and to being. You know, nothing was ever good enough. And she used to, you know, like to come back and just be nasty. Now, this is at New York Magazine. And to get to the art department, it was laid out sort of in a big L shape, okay? So the long part of the L was where the newsroom was, where everybody sat. And there was a center aisle. And then you got to where the editor's office was, and you took a right. A dog leg to the right, and you'd walk past Nick Polegi and all these great people, and that would end in the art department. So there was the design, some layout work, and then you'd come in, and there we were, and Roger had his table, and I'm next to him. And, you know, we were just 10 of us in there, I think, if that. And she would come in and just be horrifically rude to people who worked for me. And I thought, well, we have to stop this right away. Right away. And so I went up to her and I said, can you come with me just a second. I have something I want to say to you, but I'd like to do it just outside the. The threshold here. Come across the. So she stepped over into the other area. And I said to her this. And I want to tell you something. I don't care how you behave on this side of the room. It's none of my business. And people put up with it. That's their. Let them. But the minute you cross this line here, you come into this area, you have to leave that package outside, because now you're doing it to me, and I won't put up with it. Now, on those days, I'm still six feet. I'm in cowboy boots, right? And jeans. And one of my nudie, you know, nudie made the best cowgirl shirts. And it was, you know, light blue and had leather on it, you know. And I just, you know, I'm just this big broad kind of person. And I just thought, I'm just not going to put up with it. And I said to her, listen, I know that you're really talented and you're really good and I'm looking forward to working with you, but this is the term under these terms. But I don't care how rude you are on the other side, you cannot bring that in here or you will come up against me and that won't be good. So she goes back and I said, you should go check me out. So this is after Rolling Stoner.

Yeah.

So she goes and she, she makes a couple of phone calls and they say to her, and this is in Jerry Oppenheimer's book, don't fuck with her. She is a six foot cowgirl and she'll hurt you. And after that, we never had a problem. I used to tease her because it made her crazy. Her mother, her father was British, but her mother was an American. And so I said to her, God, your mother's an American. I said, you know, my mother is Jewish, so I'm Jewish. I don't know how to break it to you. American, Your mother's an American. She hated that. Oh, my God. Oh, but she was. I learned a lot from her. I'll tell you this. What? Oh, she had a great sense of style and she had a great, she had brilliant ideas, really, really good ideas. And I mean, she got Schnabel to, I mean, she knew all the young artists and kids, cats and Schnabel and all of them. And they would put this, you know, backdrops together for her and everything else. And she knew clothes and she understood what looked great. And she was smart as a whip. Nasty, but smart. You got to be a sponge. You got it. When you see talent like that, you, what you want to do is watch carefully and soak up as much of it as you can and adapt it to and what you can do with it. All I wanted her to do was not be rude.

It seems that you have a great deal of data to which to apply to the question I'm now going to ask you, which is, having worked with Annie Leibovitz, Anna Wintour, Dick Avedon, do you think that their, shall I say, harshness caused them to be great or that because they were great. They could get away with it.

First of all, I think they were perfectionists.

Okay.

Okay. Yep. Talented people have trouble tolerating, you know, they don't, they don't suffer fools. Well, and, and that's okay. Okay. And I don't think they were harsh to start. And I'm not sure I would use the word harsh. I think they were perfectionists. Okay. And they had a real sense of what would work. And I would tell you, Annie would shoot and get until she got it right. Dick Avedon, the same thing. Anna, Anna left nothing to chance. She had done her homework. She had really thought about the clothes. When we would go out on a shoot, there were so many, so many options, right. And so much. And she would, she just. For her, it was like a canvas and she had a variety of paints to use and she could at last second run over and find just the right piece of an accessory that would change everything. So I look upon them as highly talented, very creative people who had a very clear vision. And I think that's what you find in great photographers. I think Herb Ritts had a very clear vision. One of the reasons when I got to Newsweek, that I was allowed, I had asked to be able to steal one photographer from Time. I took Arthur Grace for a reason because like Annie, he hated to stand where anybody else was and he took off beat pictures and, you know, so when I had the assignment to do Robin Williams, I sent Arthur because a. He used to do stand up when he first got out of the Marines. And he had, he was fast and smart. And I thought this was the marriage to make. And it was a marriage that eventually the three of us became friends for 19 years, which rarely happens. But Arthur was the perfect marriage to make. Arthur has a very defined sense of how he sees the world. And I am telling you that the great ones, that's what they've got that clear vision and they are not interested in compromise. And I think that is true of all kinds of talented people. Steve Jobs, I thought, I was just thinking of Steve Jobs. He knew exactly what he wanted and he was not willing to compromise.

No kidding, right? Yeah, exactly.

But he had bullying. He could be a bully. But if you stood up to him, then he was interested. Some of that. That is why it worked with Anna. She. She could be a bully, but I stood up to that. So what was the point? I called her on it then. It was not, not worth it anymore. Didn't need to. Didn't need to. A lot of times people who are like that are also have a lot of insecurity, just mass. That. That kind of behavior just masks a lot of doubt, inner doubt.

I think that that kind of behavior is the easy part. It's the perfectionist, genius part. That's the hard part.

It is, it is, it is. I agree. But, you know, there's a certain part of you that has to accept that that's what that person has. Yeah. And what a gift.

Yeah.

But you get that gift and you have. You lose other things. Can't have it all.

Okay, so last big topic. Let's say I'm a amateur photographer, wannabe photographer. Wannabe professional photographer. How do you take a great picture? What you know, is it the equipment, is it. What is it? How do you. If you're talking to a group of wannabe photographers and you say, okay, so I've worked with all the best. This is what you need to do to be a great photographer.

All right. I'm gonna tell you what I tell my students about that because I coach now at the City University of New York in the photo journalism, in the photography department, and also video students who are graduate students. And so I tell them this, that there are two parallel paths. The first one that you need to do is master all the tools you need to know. You need to walk around with that camera in your hand so it feels like it's your hand. You need to know how to not have it on auto focus. You need to learn how to do that yourself. You need to learn to how. How to read light with your eye. You need to become technically proficient so that it is ingrained in your brain and it's automatic. The auto focus thing is in your brain. Right. So you don't have to worry about your equipment. You need to master that. The parallel path to that is learning composition and. And realizing that you want to take pictures that are your pictures, not somebody else's, that are unique to you and your vision. Everybody can look at the same thing, but see it slightly different. And where is your sense of humor? That if you have all the technical skill set, then it's not going to impede your ability to. To have a theory about the third eye. Okay. Which I believe creative people have. And this might seem like I'm a little far afield, but I'm not. When you're galloping on a horse, I used to gallop. I used to love to ride. I even was crazy enough to gallop bareback. But what I learned was that if the horse and I are one, you're you're just moving perfectly if you're rowing, if you're in a skull and there are eight of you, if your oars aren't all going in the water at the exact same time and coming out at the exact same time, you're not going to make any progress. So I, I used to leave rugs and stuff. And one day I'm working on the loom and I suddenly, I'm looking down at my hands and I'm saying to myself, stay out of the way, just get out of the way. Let them, they seem to know what they're doing. And that is that third eye that creative people have. And if you can allow yourself to find that rhythm and if you've got all the technical skills, you don't have to worry about stuff now. All you're thinking about is walking around and looking at an object from many different points of view and you suddenly are trying to find out what is Guy Kawasaki's point of view. What makes this picture intriguing? What does he find funny? What does he find absurd in this world? What is it that makes him want to push the button on the camera once, not 45, 000 times? Which is of course the problem with digital because they can shoot a thousand and they're not paying attention. And Cartier person said the great thing, you know, if you're pushing the button all the time, the pictures in the middle and over, overshooting is like overeating. Another great Cartier press online. And these are all true. So what I would say to you, you, I would say, God, what do you see that that is unique to you, that brings all of your life experiences into how you view the world. In your earlier stages. I would insist that you go out and do that. Oftentimes I make students do a five block radius of where they live and pretend I'm from outer space and I don't know what Astoria is or I don't know, you know. And so you need to show me what makes that part of your world interesting. Who are the people who live there? So that's the, that's the advice.

And do you think digital photography is a positive or negative?

I grew up on film, okay. Yeah. I grew up with people who had to, who did not see their work until it was over, until it was processed. They were not bobbing like little ducks looking down all the time. And every time you bob down and look, you have lost your connection. Yeah. And you have to refocus your brain, let alone your eye. So I had a student the first semester I was teaching and I made him tape over the back of the camera. I thought he was going to have a breakdown. He really did. He ran. He ran to the head of the department, said, she's made me cover up the back of the camera. And he, you know, the head of the department was laughing, thought it was really funny. And he said to me, oh, you scared the crap out of him. I said, good. Fear is a wonderful motivator. And he said, and he's laughing. And I said, you know why you're laughing so hard? And he goes, why? I said, because I'm not doing it to you. And he laughed and said, you're right. But I think digital, excuse me, I have a frog in my throat. I think digital has many things about it that is good, okay? However, if you're not shooting a Leica digital Leica, you have a problem because first of all, it's trained for center focus and the world is not center focused. That's why I prefer a Leica. That's why all the greats always shot with a Leica. And you get to take too many pictures and you get to look all the time. Then here's the worst part. You erase your mistakes, which is a catastrophe when you're shooting film and you made a mistake. You had to look at it and you had to say to yourself, that was expensive. I would rather not do that again. So what did I get wrong here? One of my students now is shooting film this summer and we were talking and she said, oh my God, I did such a terrible job. I said, did you look carefully what you did wrong? And she said, yeah. I said, are you going to go out and do it again? Oh, yeah, I'm going to go out and shoot film until I get it right. Because there's something. It's unforgiving. Think about this. All those guys who shot in Vietnam, unless you were a wire guy, Larry Burroughs author they never saw their film. It was shipped unprocessed. They never saw anything unless it was published. And when they would come in for home leave, they would get to look at the outtakes. That means you think before you push the button. And that's, I believe, with digital thinking has been removed.

Okay?

So that's my problem with it. And that's because I'm old fashioned.

Backing up 30 seconds here. Explain to me what, why you said Leicas are not center focused, but everything else is. What, what do you mean by that?

Well, in other words, if you have one of those little aperture things, it's A circle. Yeah. Right.

Yeah.

Don't ask me. Technical. Yeah, please. But anyway, that is. That is automatically. And if you look at how a digital camera is, it tends to want to focus on the center of the picture. The beauty of a Leica is it's. It sweeps across, right. The shutter moves differently. It moves from right to left.

Like a digital or like a film.

Well, like a film, yeah. Right. And so that. But that gave. That's why all of them, Eisenstadt, every one of them, restaurant, everyone wanted to shoot Leica. First of all, the glass was phenomenal, but you had to compose the picture. I make my students walk around with the camera now, and I say to them, you are carrying a picture frame. So when you're going to take a picture, would you want to hang that picture on the wall? And by the way, you can hang pictures vertically. I say, but I want you to walk around and not necessarily shoot right away. I want you to walk around and carry the camera as if you were carrying a picture frame. So as you're beginning to put your composition together, you will know when is the right time to touch the button. Most people who have digital don't think about that because they have a thousand little opportunities on that little card. I mean, I. I just think it's lazy. I think it can make you lazy.

I love that we're having birds in our podcast, too, but.

Well, that's what I was sitting here on the top of the trees, and what you're listening to are cardinals.

That's very. That's very touching. Okay, so my last question. Let's say, well, I don't know what your relationship was with your family or your mother or father, but let's say that you decided you wanted a portrait of your mother or your father or your sibling or someone you loved.

Right.

And any photographer you could, dead or alive, you could say, just gonna take this picture. Who would you pick?

Wow, that's an incredible question. A couple of names came to. I think I'd have Kirk Gabrison take that picture because he had a great line about portraiture. He said, portraiture is the most difficult thing to do because you need to get between the subject's shirt and their skin and that people have the wrinkles they have earned. And he used two wonderful pictures for that. One of which was Colette looking so dissipated. It was phenomenal. But they were such honest pictures. And they were. And they would be environmental portraits, which I think I would prefer than a studio shot. And they'd be in black and White, which I like the most. And they'd be very classic. Now, you know, if I had said Avedon, I know that would have been in that. Caught in that 8, 10 framing. If I'd said Annie, it would have been in color. If I said Arthur, who is one of my favorite photographers, Arthur Grace, it would have had more humor, maybe, But I would go for Cartier Bresson. Thank you very much.

Really?

Yeah, I would. You should look at his little video. There's a video about him called the Decisive one. Was about 15 minutes, was done with ICP and. And scholastic. It's one of the most brilliant things on photography ever made. I make my students watch it first before they meet with me, because he's so much smarter than I am and I. I steal his lines all the time.

And all he needed was a 35 millimeter lens.

Right? That was it. I like her. Yeah, that was it.

Of course, now a lot of people listening to podcasts go up out and buy a Leica, and they're still gonna have shit photos, though.

Well, that's. But that's because they won't take the time to walk around with it like a picture frame and think about his composition was. You know, he said to Robert Cap, you know, when they put together Magnum, he said, you know, I am. I am not a photojournalist. He said, I am a surrealist. Because he want. He was a painter first. I am a surrealist. And Caplan said to him, well, don't tell them that. Tell them you're a photojournalist and shoot like a surrealist. And so if you look at his pictures, many of them are classic that way, but they are. That picture that he will make, that you will see is perfect from edge to edge, top to bottom, uncroppable.

Karen, you truly are a national treasure. I wish you could bottle up all this wisdom. Oh, my God.

I should write a book. I should write a book.

No, no, don't write a book. Writing a book is too 19th century. There are better ways to spread your wisdom than writing a book. That the moment you write it is out of date and most people won't read it cover to cover.

Oh, good, that's it. Everybody's been after me to write a book, and I've only, you know, I try and I can't. I can't spell, so I'm always. That's just awful. I can't add and I can't spell. I. I am an idiot savant on many levels. There are a couple of things I do. Really, really well. Well, I haven't bounced a checkbook in 40 years. I just wrote it up.

Well, you either overdrawn or not. That's all you really need to know.

I don't care. I don't care.

Well, if, you know, to the people who say you really ought to write a book, just say, you know, give me a two million dollar advance and I will. And then that'll shut them up. So that's how you can. That's how you can tell who's really serious.

I'll quote you on that.

You can feel free.

My agent said you have to give me a $2 million.

Oh, my God. This has been utterly fantastic. Thank you so much for doing this. Taking time out of your sabbatical slash vacation, slash escape.

Just my escape. This is my place. I come and escape here once a. Once a year. I. I do nothing except listen to birds and the sound of the water lapping on the bottom of the cliff here where I'm situated above in a log cabin.

Oh, my. Well, you have great cell phone reception. That's great. Better than I have in. In Menlo park in Palo Alto, California, so.

That's because the man who owns the couple that on this pill is a computer wizard. So he just put in a new WI fi system. It's apparently quite remarkable.

Okay, Karen, thank you so much.

Thank you, guys. Thank you so much.

You are such a pleasure.

I was nervous about. I was nervous about doing this. Why? You made it very well. I just was. And. But you made it very easy, and I thank you.

Well, now you and Jane Goodall are the two most famous secretaries that I know.

What wonderful company to be in. No kidding.

It doesn't get better than that.

It does not get better than that.

Bye. That's it.

Wow.

Wow. Oh, my God.

Wow.

It is review time. One of my favorite times of the week. Da provocateur. Yesterday I was feeling completely down in the dumps. Can we undo the systemic injustices upon which this country was founded? Well, Jamaia Wilson fired me up and activated my true inner activist self. I could listen to her all day. Guy, thanks for the platform and for the provocative questions. You are welcome. Keep those reviews and comments coming. Go to the Apple podcast app app and enter a review, please. I hope that you found this episode of Karen Malarkey as wow and inspiring as I did. It was utterly fantastic to hear her stories about the legends in photography, news and fashion. I second the motion that Karen is a national treasure. If you know anyone interested in photography, news or fashion. Please tell them to listen to this episode. My thanks to Prescott Lee for suggesting Karen as a guest. That was an idea of sheer brilliance. My thanks to Peg Fitzpatrick and Jeff C. Who I consider national treasures. I'm Guy Kawasaki, and this is remarkable people. Live a long time, wear a mask and stay away from crowds. Mahalo and aloha. This is remarkable people.