Micael Dahlen | Science of Wellbeing & Happiness | Talks at Google

Foreign. Welcome to this virtual talks at Google event. I'm Johan Eriksson and I lead analysts at Google who tries to help people make better decisions. I'm really excited today because our guest is Professor Michael Dalien who is the world's first professor of well being, welfare and happiness. Michael has written many books, including this one called Happiness Made Easy. It sounds almost too good to be true, but I assure you it's really not warm. Welcome to Talksoogle, Michael.

Thank you so much.

And I have to start by asking, or I want to start by asking, what has made you happy today?

Well, obviously your very kind introduction and being here with you, but it's still early in the day so basically the only thing I've done so far is to get out of bed and that made me happy. I have a challenge ongoing this week with my students to get out of bed in a new way every day. And it really starts today with a big smile. So this morning I cartwheeled out of bed. I'm terrible at cartwheeling, but I managed to. Success made me super happy. Actually, that's a tip. It's a bit easier when you're elevated from the bed position and you get that leverage. So yeah, I'm a gymnast now.

That's brilliant. What a way to start today to come up with different ways of getting out of bed. I mean, you are a professor of happiness. So I think many people watching this have the question, what are some of the most important things to think about if you want to be happy?

Well, I think three things. First, what you do. We tend to overestimate what we have. But whatever we have, whatever we accrue, we get habituated. We come to a point when we realize that, well, that did not make me happy ever after. And we start second guessing our choices, our priorities and so forth. But really what makes the difference again and again is what we do with the things we have, with the time we have with who and where we are. According to my research, our daily happiness can be impacted by more than 50% potentially from what we do on a daily basis. So that's one. To the people in our lives, the people we see, the people we meet, the people we don't necessarily meet or see but that are there are still in our lives, loved ones, family, friends, so forth. We become far too easily blind to all the people around us. That again, according to my research, about 30% of how we feel and what we do in an average week comes from the people around us that knowingly or unknowingly impact us. And thirdly, time, how we devote our time, how we prioritize our time during the day, during the week, but also time over the lifespan. Because fundamentally life is the time we have and make. So what we make out of life and our well being is very much dependent on how we use that time and where we are time wise in life.

Yeah, I mean that first thing about the habits and what we do every day, I mean I have this routine every morning before I go up from bed. I go up in the same way every day I should change that, I realize. But I stop and I think to myself how thankful I am that I am alive and that everything else positive today I will count as an undeserved bonus. And that, that really gets me off to a normally a good start.

That's wonderful.

And I mean there's the flip side as well. Right? So you talk about what can we do to increase happiness and that's, that's on point and great. But what are some of the things to be aware of to not do or stay away from or whatnot in order to, in order to be happy?

That's a great question. We need to be more mindful of the things that impact our happiness in a positive direction, but also the many things around us and in what we do that can have a negative impact. And number one I think I'd say is comparing again. We are surrounded by so many people, literally physically and virtually and in the back of our heads that we tend to compare with anything from what we have that we compare with what others have to we do. Did I do it well enough at the right point? And so forth and even more happiness. Am I as happy as the next person? And I should I. What am I not doing? What are they doing? And also comparing with ourselves with, with what we did yesterday last year, whether it be in the gym or going for a run that I wasn't as fast and because of that this doesn't count or isn't as good and so forth. So that comparison that goes on all the time really stands in the way of us being mindful and enjoying the present and the future more so that I think would be number one. Number two, I think would be procrastinating put things off. For instance, so I'm a professor of well being, welfare and happiness. But I'm also also before that for 16 years and running a professor of economics. So I come back again and again to that whole question money or happiness. So I, I've actually relayed that question to Thousands and thousands of people asking them, money or happiness? What is it really that you're after that you need, that you want in life? And most people, not all, but the vast majority, says, well, fundamentally, in the end, it's happiness. Happiness for me, for the people I love and care about, for the people in my life that I directly or indirectly impact. In the end, it's money, it's happiness. Sorry, but when I change the time perspective and ask people, okay, so what about right now, this year? What do you want more of? Then it shifts to people instead saying, well, okay, money so that I can have everything I need and in place. And then happiness. I just need to do this and this and this and this first. And then I can focus on my happiness and, and what really matters. I have all these have to's, all these musts, and I just have to get them done. And then I can do the things I want and truly need to do. But the problem is that there's always a new must, always a new have to, always something new that I just need to do before prioritizing and getting to what I really fundamentally want and need to do to be happy, to make happy. So, yeah, that's something I really want all of us to be more mindful of. Not procrastinating the things you want and need to do. And thirdly, I'd say exaggerating, not to exaggerate too much. And that goes both for the positive and the negative aspects. Not to inflate all our worries and concerns, which we do so frequently. Oh, if this happens, we're in a recession. Oh, the economy. Oh, the worries of everything that could go wrong. And in my personal life, if I pursue this and it doesn't work out, oh, everything that could go wrong. And if I'm not perfect today, oh, the many things that could go wrong, the many bad things that people would think of me and so forth. Don't exaggerate. It will work out. It will not be the end of the world. Obviously, so many things have to. So many of us been conceived of as potentially the end of the world. But world and we are still here. So obviously nothing yet has been the end of the world. Don't exaggerate. But that also goes for the positives, like with happiness. Don't exaggerate happiness to being a huge lifelong big project that will stress you out, give you performance anxiety, make you, I call it happy Condri thinking that you are less happy and doing things less correctly because you're not as big happy and all happy that we tend to exaggerate happiness into being a big project that we just need to manage perfectly.

I mean, those are three great things to stay away from and be mindful of. And when we talk about happiness, and you're a professor of happiness, welfare and well being, like how would you differentiate happiness from well being, for example?

That's a great question. I'd say happiness is one fundamental part of well being, where well being also includes things like meaningfulness that can overlap with happiness but does not necessarily have to. Meaningfulness can be something that is so rewarding when life is hard, not pleasant, comfortable, joyful, but that still gets us out of bed, gets us out into the world sticking around because it gives us direction, it gives us a purpose, it gives us a bigger picture that we can still add to. And another dimension is what I call richness. For life to be rich with experiences, events, dramas that are not necessarily pleasant, that we would not necessarily opt into because they are scary, they are challenging, they are hard when looking back, then can be so rewarding, they can enrich our lives, that can make us grow, make us see things, do things that we would otherwise not do, that contribute to our well being.

I mean, it's a hard definition, I think, for people to sort of separate happiness from well being. And I think many people are thinking about that. So that was good way to think about it in more practical, practical terms.

And I also think we can think of it in a temporal way that well being is making life as good as possible for ourselves and for each other in the future. And looking back and right now, where meaningfulness is very much about having and making direction and going somewhere. Richness is having lived to the fullest and happiness as to a fair extent about the now of giving ourselves the energy, the joy, the community to be on the way, do the things that are rewarding in the long run and meaningful that might be hard, effortful right now, and the things that are enriching but can also be scary, but then have enough happiness to, to dare and pursue.

Yes, we need, we need meaningfulness and happiness in that sense, both of it. And you know, speaking of different terms, and in this day and age of artificial intelligence, AI can help us with pretty much anything we want AI to help us with. So the question is, what do we want? And in terms of societal direction and what do we want to optimize society for? What do you think we should optimize society for? Should it be GDP as we've done for, for a long time? Should it Be happiness, should it be well being should be something else. What's your thoughts then?

Well, I know for sure it should not be gdp. I mean, we've been down that route for decades and still we're struggling and maybe struggling even more and harder with well being and ill being. And we need to remind ourselves that GDP was never intended to be the end, but the means to the end. And I, I'd say that the end of organizing as a society is to make life as good as possible for all of us, realizing that we can and we need to do that together. And GDP is one means to, by way of pooling our resources and in terms of money, of having something to commune around, to plan for, to compromise and so forth, we can come together better. But that's just one means. There are other means. And again, the end really is life as good as possible, where well being is definitely an indicator of that.

No, And I think a lot of people, when it comes to happiness and well being, they feel that they can do a lot for themselves. You know, we spoke about the daily habits and who you surround yourself with, etc. In the start. And one question I have is beyond the individual, what can governments, organizations, companies, etc. Do to enable more happiness and well being? Any observations there?

Yeah, and I think a big part of the answer is, and the question that we need to ask ourselves that in organizations, at the governmental level and in organizations, I work quite a bit with organizations and I think one good thing is to remind ourselves and ask ourselves what are organizations meant for? And we can go back all the way to the theory of the firm. And Adam Smith, the guy with the invisible hand, who back in the 1700s pretty much summarized the theory of the firm. Today we talk about organizations, but the theory of the firm of organizations, the fundamental function of an organization is really to, to do more efficiently each and every one of us want and need to do, but not as efficiently and effectively do individually. So therefore we organize together to do those things we want and need to do more efficiently and effectively. And then that begs the question, okay, fundamentally, what is it that we want and need to do well to make life as good as possible for ourselves and for the people we love and care about, so forth. And if we realize that, we also realize that that thing we discuss so frequently in organizations, work, life balance, might lead the mind in the wrong direction to thinking that, okay, there's work on one end and life on the other end, and we need to find a balance between working, working, working, working and Then hurrying off to live a little. Working is all about living better. Maybe we should just talk about life balance, where we do many things in life, where work is one important part, where we organize to make life even better. And when thinking along those directions, will quite a few ideas come up of what we should target and monitor while working, what we should reward, what we should value in organizations so that there is not a conflict, but a synergy. Working and living better and the same thing at a societal level too. Again, what is society is about, government's about, well, coming together to make life as good as possible for everyone. And that begs a whole bunch of new questions and how we can target, follow up, measure things.

But that's great advice, starting with asking ourselves the question like what do we want as an organization, as a society, etc. So if you, if you're watching this and, and you're a CEO or a Prime minister or whatnot, ask yourself that question and answer it in, in the actions that you pursue. So great advice. Now do give me a call if.

You'Re a CEO or, or at the governmental level because I have a host of ideas of measures and indicators. We could use an intervention. So give me a pump.

No, that's good advice or you'll run for office or do something else. But seeing that society is something that will mostly be experienced by children, young people, because they enter society today in this day and age with the sort of AI revolution and macroeconomic conditions and whatnot, if we want to set them off to a great start and you were to create like a curriculum for happiness and well being, what are some of the key concepts and skills that you would include in such a curriculum for children and young people throughout school?

A lovely question. And again I think that's a question that we need to ask ourselves more frequently and sooner because yeah, we, we need to learn and train well being at an individual and at a communal level for sustainability as individuals, as human beings, but also as a society. So I love that question and well actually I, I have a curriculum in place with my institution, Stockholm School of Economics, where I'm. I'm so happy and grateful that I've had the opportunity together with the school to start the education for all incoming students with course on well being, welfare and happiness. So that's where we start out. Okay. What are the fundamental tools and platform that we need to build our future, our students careers and the things they will do later on from. So that curriculum can be summarized and the Swedish word tak, which means thank you and that's an acronym where the T stands for togetherness. To be reflective on and more mindful of our togetherness. How to a far greater extent than we realize, we impact and are impacted by the unity we're in, the people around us, the context we're in for our welfare, for our well being. What can we do? How can we foster that togetherness for the good, for the better, and steer clear from the bad? That's togetherness. And the A stands for agency. Becoming more mindful of and training our individual and communal agency. The things we can do to far greater extent on a daily basis to make life better for ourselves, starting even when getting out of bed, literally moving on, and also as a society. And then the C stands for coherence, the realization that life society consists of many parts. For instance, work and off work. They are two parts together with many other parts of life that can and does unfortunately conflict too frequently. How can they work in synergy? Well being consists of many parts, happiness, meaningfulness, richness, welfare, subjective welfare and so forth. To be more mindful of that coherence and foster that coherence on an individual and on the societal, communal level. And the K stands for kinetics, energy from motion, momentum, Realizing that being in a good place is wonderful, but we also need momentum, a direction. Being a professor of economics, close to mind is how stressed out we are from the economic cycle when going into the. When going into a recession. I know from my research that has a huge impact on people's ill being, people's stress, they worry from that direction, going in the wrong direction. And then we can see like right now, fall of 2024, where overall and in my native Sweden, we're still in an economic down cycle, but we're moving up again in the right direction. And that has an immediate impact on people's well being and feeling less stressed and worried because we're going at least in the right direction. We're not in the perfect or the best place, but we're going somewhere better, which is important. And that goes for individual life and so many other aspects of life.

So tuck T, A C, K, that's the curriculum. So we're adding to the list of company leaders, government leaders, we're adding principals and headmasters as well to, to reach out, to get the curriculum in place for young people and children. Oh, that's great. Thank you for sharing that. If you had like, I mean, you're doing so much already, but if you had unlimited courage, what would you do to further sort of well being and Happiness in the world. Maybe you have unlimited courage and you did it already. That that's. That could be an option. But still wanted to ask.

I'd say that not thinking of life as a risk management program helps out a lot. And if you don't think as life as a collection of risks, then courage is really moved out of the equation. So that's one thing. And that goes back to not exaggerating risks and the things that could go wrong. Things go wrong all the time, but we're still here, that's okay. And for things going wrong, maybe that will enable you to have things go more correctly and right later on. But personally I'd say be more honest, be more honest about who I am, what I struggle with. And I think that's the thing going back to comparing and so forth. I worry about what people would think about me if they could look inside me, see what I'm thinking. And therefore I don't change, share and feel more lonely and alone with my struggles, with my weaknesses and don't really come into that togetherness which is so important and mental and it can be so relieving. Sharing my uncertainties, worries, flaws and so forth and realizing that others struggle with these things too. And sharing, we become more daring, really a mantra I love sharing makes for daring. And that also kind of relates to reaching out. It can be anything from which I also challenge my students to do together with me. Make eye contact with strangers, start conversations with people you don't know. And we did a this is a super fun and scary thing in class last week. We did a thing where we used our phones to send a message to someone saying would you like to to do something together this week? So we texted that message and then we handed the phone over to someone else in the classroom, my fellow classmate, and got access to the contact list and decided to whom that message would be sent. Super scary, super fun. But it also made for connections and meetings that were otherwise not happen. And that could feel a bit scary because I know this person mainly for national reasons or something. Dare I reach out? And yeah, doing so, yeah, it made for quite a few super fun meetings.

Yeah, how uncomfortably exciting. And I mean thank you so much for all of the great insights that you've been sharing with us. It's been really rewarding. Understanding the science of happiness and well being. And for everyone sort of looking at this and listening in, if you haven't already, I would advise you to get Michael's book Happiness Made Easy because that leads you down the rabbit hole. Of how you can really, really, really improve your happiness and well being as well. So thank you Michael so much for joining talks at Google. We really appreciate it you taking the time. I hope that you will have a really happy day for the rest of the day as well. And for anyone listening in, thank you so much for taking the time here as well. I hope that you found something in here for you. Thank you very much.

Thank you. Tuck Tuck.