Remarkable People Behind the Podcast - How to Find Your Purpose

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Good morning, everybody. I'm Guy Kawasaki. I am the host of the Remarkable People podcast and chief evangelist of canva. I am in Santa Cruz, California. Joining me today is Jeff C. Yes, you're here. The bearded man himself.

That's right.

Jeff is in. I don't know. Where are you?

What part of the man cave? I am East Texas, so that's where I am right now. It is. It's a. It's a good day here in East Texas, but it's a good day for podcast listeners because this was an exciting, exciting podcast.

So they're all exciting podcasts.

They are. They are very excited. But. But this one was really good because it was all about, you know, has to do with culture and happiness and.

Yep.

You even had some tough questions. This was. I was a little interesting how that was gonna go.

Well, you're probably wondering who the hell we're talking about. It is Jen Lim. And Jen is the author of this book about delivering happiness. She also helped manage Tony Hsieh's launch of his book about delivering happiness. And she was with Zappos during those formative years. And Zappos truly had a wonderful culture. I visited it and I'll talk about esprit de corps and all that. This was kind of a difficult interview because in a sense, it is marked by tragedy in that Tony Hsieh died in a fire in New York. How long ago was it? Like six or seven months ago. So. Yeah, well, I re going into that interview, I didn't really know how to ask that question. So there were some tense. I wouldn't say tense. There were some challenge. Well, even challenging is not the right word because it implies that it was, you know, difficult and, you know, controversial or something. It's just hesitant. It was. There's, you know, how do you ask somebody about their former friend and all that died in a fire. Wow. So, yeah. So she handled that rather brilliantly, I must say.

Oh, I was gonna just say this. Oh, go ahead, go ahead, go ahead.

You go ahead.

She said, I mean, I thought you did a really good. Asking the questions, but it was all. It was really tough because, I mean, it wasn't just like a boss. It was like they wrote a book together. They were. You could tell from the interview how close they were.

Yeah. And, you know, the. The gist of her answer was about how he had changed. And there's lots of wild stories floating around about his drug use and this and that and all that kind of stuff. And so, I mean, if you're interested in the Tony Hsieh story. And you want to hear someone who had a front row seat. This is it. This is. You're not reading some reporters analysis of, you know, allegations. This is, this person had a front row seat. So. And Tony Shea was a remarkable person. I wish, I wish we had him on this podcast. So let's have the icebreaker question.

It is, have you worked in a place with great corporate culture? And you've worked at a very famous place and I was going to ask you, Guy.

Yes.

Was it a good. Would you say Apple was. Had a good corporate culture when you were there?

A seemingly simple question has a very complicated answer. So first of all, I loved working at Apple. I worked there twice and it was like being paid to go to Disneyland. Although that metaphor breaks down these days too. But it was, it was great because we were working for just a fantastic person, Steve Jobs, who, you know, motivated us to dent the universe. I can't tell you, it was all unicorns and pixie dust. It's a scary experience working for Steve. I'm still having post traumatic stress from it, but I would not trade those days for anything. And you know, it was a hot company at an interesting time doing, you know, what we thought was God's work. So yeah, it had great corporate culture. But you know, I also was there when there were layoffs and I would say that the corporate culture at Canva, where I am now, is probably better than what it was at Apple.

So what's the difference? Why is it, why would you say it's better than what it was at Apple?

Well, I think Canva has a much more empathetic atmosphere. I think that Melanie and Cliff, who have built what is now a 40 billion dollar valuation company, do not have some of the characteristics of Steve Jobs, I. E. His sort of, sort of, his. Let's just say I wouldn't say impolite. I would say a polite Steve Jobs was just a different kind of beast. Right. And so he had a different operating system. And I, I would not say that you would use the word empathetic to describe Steve Jobs. Nor kind. This is not to say that he wasn't inspiring and visionary and all that good stuff. But you wouldn't say he was empathetic. He scared the out of me actually. It's just a different style. Whereas I think Melanie and Cliff and Camero are very different kind of people. Much more empathetic, much more feeling, much more worried about the welfare of employees. Inspiring by leading and setting a good example as opposed to Fear.

That's good. Yeah. So from what I've seen from the outside looking in Canvas, seems like it has a great. A great corporate culture. Yeah, a couple of things, if you guys are just joining us. We were talking about the podcast Remarkable People. You can find out more@remarkable people.com. but also you can go and just hold up your smart device here and just click on this QR code and it will take you right to that. And we would love for you guys to leave us a rating review. We're like, in the Great Resignation right now. They're all saying that, you know, everybody's looking for a new job and corporate culture is a big part of what people are looking for. And so this is very applicable right now of what Zappos did and everything there. So make sure you guys go check that out@remarkablepeople.com or your favorite podcast player.

I. I would say that if you're facing the Great Resignation and we, we touch on that in the episode. You. You have to listen to this episode. And you also have to buy her book.

Yeah, that's another one. I have so many. My book budget has gone out the. Out the window with all this. This podcast stuff.

So, Jeff, you know that if you just told me I could ask any author to send you a free copy.

I mean, I know, but I like to support authors too.

So anyway, I like to support authors too. That's why I have them on the podcast, not by their book.

So our next question is what companies make you think of great corporate culture? So we talked about Apple, We've talked about Canva. Are there any other ones? Zappos is what this episode is all about. Is there another company that you have seen? Maybe they're not even around anymore. Maybe it's like pets. Com. I don't know. What, what are some ones that you thought that are. Do a really great job with their corporate corporate culture?

Well, I haven't worked at Apple for decades, so I don't really know what their corporate culture is like anymore. If I had to guess, and I hope I'm right, I would say Patagonia probably has a great corporate culture. So I don't know, let's see what people say.

Yeah, let us know what you think. You know, you hear about a lot of the perks, and I think when people think of corporate culture, it's easy to go to, like, the big looking like Google, you know, they've got the slide in their office. Yeah, there's so much more to corporate culture than, you know, having an open bar at work. I mean, you know, you know what is easy. Yeah. So what are people. What are people looking for? So here we go. Jonathan Perez has the. This one. He says Goodr seems to have a great culture. Why do you think that, Jonathan? I'd love to know why you think that they have a great culture.

What is Goodr?

I don't even know. Yeah, so sounds good. Or maybe it's gooder than everybody else.

It's better. It's better than good is gooder.

It's gooder. Let's see another one. Pactimo definitely has one. I can testify to that. Well, that's very cool.

So, guys, two companies. I never heard.

Yeah. Now I would have to look it up. Thanks for.

They may have a great culture. They don't have good marketing. We haven't heard of them.

So Patagonia is one. I'm trying to think of some other ones.

It's hard to think of.

This is a good question. I don't know who asked this because it's just coming as LinkedIn user, but can you define a great corporate culture? And they did this a lot in the podcast. So if you haven't listened to it, make sure you guys go check that out. But what would you say a great corporate culture is? You mentioned empathy before. What else is there?

I think the acid test is that you look forward to going to work. Of course now with the whole not in person workplace, that's a whole different thing. So I don't know anybody who looks forward to getting on Zoom, but I guess it's still. It's looking forward to doing the work for that organization. Like I look forward to editing the podcast. Right. I think that's the test. Do you look forward to your work? You either do your don't. It's that simple. It's not a matter of money too.

Well, I tell everybody I have like the best job because I get to listen to incredible conversations every week. So it's not a bad. It's a good gig if you can get it. So another question is, have you ever discussed the. The culture of a company in an interview? Now when I was back in the interview days, this isn't something you asked. I mean, for you, guy, I mean, would you talk like on the interview go like, what's your company culture like? Would you even ask that?

No. I mean, in the times that I was interviewing, I was always selling, I wasn't buying, you know, so they weren't asking me what the hell I thought was just happy to be There. Yeah.

I think more and more and more people, especially the younger generation, that is one of the reasons they're leaving their jobs. And also that's what they ask at the interview. So if you're interviewing people, I have a feeling you might be asked about this. And Janet even says, right, here she goes, always ask about the culture.

So it's just, what if you want the job?

Yeah.

So Jonathan says, so Janet, you don't. You don't think that might. Well, I guess it depends on how you ask. But you don't think that that may somehow hurt your chances of getting hired? Yeah, that's a tricky thing, huh?

Yeah, it's like, if they go, well, we don't have one, then you're like, okay. Or they throw it back at you. It's like, what do you think? You know?

Yeah. Or what if they're thinking but not saying, oh, yet another millennial who's expecting, you know, life on a silver platter.

Right.

Because that's possible. I mean, I don't know. It's tricky. That's why I can't get a job now. I don't have interview skills.

Janet says she's also interviewing for them, too. So that's really interesting. So I think more and more it's going to be really important. And, you know, you probably need to have that answer ready. But, yeah, like, you wouldn't even think about asking that. You wouldn't. You're just like, I'd like a job, please.

When can I start?

Yeah. Jonathan says Goodr is a sunglasses company. They have a long onboarding process, and they hire for culture. They use the Enneagram and don't use internal email. It's a lot. So, yeah. So Enneagram. I know a lot of people are doing the personality test, and he says, Pac Dumo is a cycling apparel company, and the leadership makes it easier. Oh, he must work for them. So that's very, very cool. And his voice is heard, which is really important. So Janet says she's Gen X, but it's fit is super important.

Well, yeah, fit is super important. I don't know how you decide on fit, though. I mean, I. I probably think Glass Door will help you more with fit than, you know, the recruiter who's paid to sell. Right. I don't know. It's been a long time since I sat in an interview like that, and I don't ever anticipate doing it again.

I think I'm unemployable.

For sure.

This is a great question. How would you Define some of the must have features of a good corporate culture in this still post pandemic area era. So I think what, what I've been seeing on LinkedIn and other places is, you know, they want, everybody wants work from home. They want to have, you know, they want to have this empathy and they want to have buy in and they want to be heard. And I think before it was like you should be happy for this job and just shut up and take it. And now it's, people are questioning things. What do you think, guy?

Yeah, absolutely. And it's like you're just asking the wrong guy. I'm too old. Oh Lord. You know, I, I think, well, you know, you heard my acid test is do you look forward to doing the work? And then, you know, then I guess the next question is who am I working for? And the thing I want out of that person is this person wants me to do great work. Not glorify him or her, not just be a suck up, but wants me to do great work. And if you have a boss that gives you the space to do great work, that's 90% of the battle, in my humble opinion.

Yeah, so Akin says if a company won't talk about culture, then it might mean they're not thinking about their culture and that's a bad thing.

So more and more, you know, it'd be interesting. So imagine you have a job interview at Tesla. You think the Tesla person is going to ask you what kind of culture are you looking for? Or do you, how do you think a Tesla recruiter would react to. So what's it like working for Elon Musk? Oh yeah. So let me tell you, I don't know. That's tricky stuff there.

Well, you had the guy who used to work for Amazon, he was like Jess Bezos, right hand man, you know, when they were Olen Breyer. Yeah. Great interview. So if you haven't done that, make sure you go to Remarkable people, check that out. Or go right here to the QR code and just click on that and you'll be taken right there. But the thing about that is, you know, do you think Amazon asked what the culture is when they're hiring warehouse employees? I think that may be getting them into some trouble right now, you know, I mean seriously, because they're, you know, they're peeing in jars when they're delivering stuff to make their stuff. I mean it's, they're kind of, I wouldn't say it was a great culture there. Maybe I'm wrong.

I, you Know, it's. I gotta say, it's. I don't know firsthand. I don't know about peeing in jars. I don't know, you know, the brutality of working in a warehouse. But we should definitely hear both sides of this argument because. Yeah, for any corporation. How many employees do they have? 250,000. You. You will be able to find an employee or employees to say something negative.

Right.

You'll also be able to find employees who say something positive. I don't. I don't know the answer to that question. And I'm not even saying give them the benefit of the doubt. I'm just saying, you know, well, it'd be interesting. So what does the cumulative glass door score say for Amazon? I have no idea. I have no.

I mean, I love. I mean, I love Amazon as a. Getting my stuff delivered to my front door. So, I mean, I get that, but I mean, I think their culture has to get. Another culture that's taken a big hit lately is like, Facebook, you know, there. I mean, the outage and then they, you know, the stuff that's happening with. With everything else. I mean, it's.

I think the deep issue for Facebook is when you go to work, do you think you're doing good or evil? You know, I mean, what if you're the team writing the algorithm to figure out, you know, what. What news stories to send to people and you say, oh, my God, you know, like, we're. We're causing the end of democracy. That's our job. What did you do today, honey? I don't know. Tricky stuff. Tricky stuff.

And we just lost the Facebook feed. No, just kidding.

Yeah, right now. We just got banned.

So another question. So we've. We've asked, you know, we're talking about culture, which is all about. And happiness, which is all about the podcast. Today@remarkablepeople.com, we talked about being. Have you ever talked about that when you've been interviewing for a job? Well, kind of. Another thing that this interview, this episode hits on is, you know, happiness and purpose, and have you found your purpose in life, guy?

Have you found your purpose in life Is podcasting.

Yeah, I misread it. Said porpoise. And I have never fished for purposes. So I would say, yeah, I think you have found your purpose. You have even said that that's your greatest thing you've done is. Is your podcast. So why do you. Why is it. Why did that strike a chord with you so much compared to your speeches and your books and all the other things you've done well.

Speeches. Speeches are, in a sense, easy for me. I can give a speech a day. It's not a problem. There's no. No problem at all giving a speech. And yet a speech is fundamentally a performance. Now, writing a book is more of an intellectual challenge because, you know, there's a lot of editing and the organization, etc. Etc. But podcasting is the greatest intellectual challenge because you have to do the research on the guest, and then you have to ask the questions in a cogent, conversational manner. And then you have to edit what you get as a recording and hope that Jeff doesn't like what you cut. And then you have to market the thing so that I. I would say that podcasting is harder than writing a book because it's. Well, it's harder because you are in less control. I don't know how good a guest will be when I turn on the record button. And it's kind of my job to make the guests really shine. I don't have that problem with writing. I don't have to figure out, oh, you know, is Guy a good writer? I got to make Guy shine. That's Guy's problem, without any other externalities. So I think that's the challenge.

Yeah. So I don't know. So I guess I don't know if I found my purpose. I mean, I. I think that. I think it's seasonal. I mean, yeah, you know, I think it goes back and forth, and, you know, mine was, for a long time is make not evil young adults. That was my job, is raising my kids, you know, try to not so they won't kill themselves or others. And that was really important. And, you know, being home. And so my purpose has changed.

As easy as it sounds, it really stopped.

So, you know, then I think, you know, that you can focus a little more on your career or you want. You did a podcast. And so this is a great question. So Andrew says, how can you encourage gratitude? Gratitude. Graduating students at such young age to find their purpose. Starting young would be nice. So how. I know you've spoken to kids, you know, and young adults before. How do you encourage them to find their purpose?

Well, you know, I don't know if finding your purpose is this conscious thing that you wake up and you. You say, okay, today I'm going to find my purpose. I. Well, listen, it took me 67 years to find podcasting, so I. I think that it would be naive to say you should go out and search for your purpose, and then the money will come and blah, blah, Blah. And, you know, find something that you feel passionate about, etc. Etc. I think that is a much overhyped recommendation. I think the, the more realistic approach is you find things that are interesting to you. Maybe it's podcasting, maybe it's HTML, maybe it's sound design, whatever. But find things that are interesting to you and pursue them until you find that they're not interesting to you. And then you work at it for 20 years and it becomes a passion. But to think that, you know, it's love at first sight and you're going to discover your passion and you're going to be whole hog into it, I think is misleading. I think you should pursue a bunch of things that you find interesting and that could be that you find Oriental art history interesting in college. But. But that doesn't mean you're going to be a professor of Oriental art history or you're going to try to make a living in Oriental art history. Good luck with that. But it wasn't, it was an interest. And, you know, you. You have different interests through life and at some point, maybe 67, you find it.

Yeah. And I think, because if, if, like my passion when I got out of high school was probably just, you know, girls and laying around, that was it. I mean, that's not really. You can't build a business off of that. So maybe some YouTubers have.

Yeah.

So Laura says, yes, she's found her passion, her purpose. Many years ago, she trains people on how to be a better communicator. Communicators. I need your help, Laura. And it suits who I am. Authentic. Authentically. Yeah. So, Laura, we.

Yesterday I interviewed Patty Sanchez from Duarte Design. And that episode is all about how to be a better communicator. The whole thing, it was, it was the most tactical interview I've ever done because I asked her. So light or dark background, do you like ring lights or do you like lights bouncing off? Do you like, you know, do you want a cardioid mic or do you. I mean, it was, it was very tactical. Is it, is it. Do you want picture in picture or side by side? And it's the most tactical interview ever in the history of remarkable people, which is close to 100 episodes long now.

Wow. So that's two years. We've been doing this for two years.

Scary thought, huh?

I know. So some couple final questions. Jonathan goes, if your podcast ended today, would you cease to exist? No, I think God would still be real. But he does say, what is about the podcast that drives you so what about. About the podcast that drives you?

You're gonna, you're gonna peer deeply into my soul and you're gonna say, guy. God, Guy's a shallow person. It's the challenge. I want to have the best podcast in the world. Really. I want, I want people at NPR to say, oh, God, I wish our podcast was as good as guys, that's talk about a. Talk about an insipid, shallow goal. That's my goal. I want to have the best podcast in the world. And I'm proud of that goal. So if you think it's shallow and insipid, don't listen to the podcast. What can I say?

But we really do want you to listen to the podcast, so. And go here to actually leave a rating review. That would be great.

But you know, at least, but you know, at least people know that I am striving for excellence. Just outstanding, remarkable excellence. This is not something that I do because I want to position myself as the thought leader or to get speaking gigs or writing gigs. This is, I want this podcast to be the best podcast in the world.

But to your credit, you have said that you want this podcast to help other people become more remarkable. So you're just not making. Yeah, well, you're. Well, you know, you. Because you were saying that like you just want to me as best you can make anything the best it is. You can, you know, sound quality, rise the best questions, whatever, doesn't matter if lets you have a goal. And your goal was to help people by giving these great examples of remarkable people.

Jeff is trying to pull me out.

Of the fire because I know what you meant. I know what you bet. Because you want to make people more remarkable. It's not just sure, but you know.

You can't be the best podcast in the world unless you add value to people.

Right?

I mean, by definition. So I know. Do you think Joe Rogan wakes up in the morning saying, I want the best podcast in the world?

Probably not. He's probably. I don't want to. I'm not going to even go there.

But I bet Terry Gross might say that.

So here, hey, listen to this. This should make you feel good. So Laura says, I asked people in a pre seminar questionnaire who they think who is a great communicator and people do pick guy. So there. Look at that. So, yeah, and so Jonathan goes, it's.

Good when your cousin puts up comments.

It says, Jonathan goes, it sounds like your purpose is to be the best at sharing information and ideas throughout the galaxy.

Okay, that's What I said. Yeah, that's what I said. That's what I meant.

Yes.

Are there more than one galaxies?

Yeah, well, we'll just stick with this one for now. And Dana says this, I think purpose doesn't come one time forever. Each phase of your life has its own purpose. I totally agree with that too. Yep. Yeah. All right.

Speaking of raising kids who are not murdering each other or killing themselves, I gotta go pick up my son. I gotta go be a dad right now.

Yes. And also, so as we wrap this up really quick, make sure you guys do go to remarkablepeople.com and download this episode. Incredible guest and all about. Yes, well, say her name one more time. So we'll talk over you.

Jen Lim.

Yes, Jen Lim wrote the book on happiness and was in Zappos. All this stuff. Amazing, amazing podcast. You really need to check it out. But also you can go here, hold up your smart device and just take a picture of that. You should go right to it. But let us know. We would love for you guys to leave a rating and review. But also, who do you think is remarkable? Somebody we've missed. You know, we've got, we've gone two years, guys. Got it planned out for another probably year. But we always need new people.

If you believe that.

Okay, final question from Andrew says, is, is, can podcasting be a mainstream career?

I think that, that. Well, I would say that making podcasting a mainstream career is probably as difficult as making being a musician or an artist or a professional athlete. So it's, it's, you know, let's face it, that making a profession of, of almost anything is difficult. And so, you know, many people want to be professional musicians or professional actors or actresses or professional artists, and not a lot of them achieve that. It's very difficult. And I would say podcasting is just as difficult as any of those artistic pursuits.

I would agree. And I think that there's a lot of part time podcasters that do amazing podcasts, but it's still, it's hard to get, you know, a full time business out of it. So. Yeah, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try is what I would say.

That's right.

So.

Because if you don't try, you never know.

Exactly. So with that, make sure you guys do go to remarkable people, download this podcast, subscribe, follow on your favorite podcast player and give us a rating review because that really does help us out and helps gets the word out to all the algorithms out there. And with that guy.

Take care, everybody.

All right, see you next time get vaccinated. Bye bye.