Remarkable People Behind the Podcast - How to Design Your Life

I gotta add Guy back. He. He booted. So let me get him back. Here he is. There he is.

I was there on time. I was there before 10am you were, then you left. That's how I define on time. So. Hi, it's Guy Kawasaki. I'm in Watsonville, California. And the fearless team of remarkable people. Folks are in Keene, New Hampshire. And I don't know, don't mask with Texas. Texas. And we had another great, great podcast released this morning. It's with Dave Evans. And he is the guy. Depending on who you listen to, he may have created the most popular course at Stanford. And it's called Designing youg Life. And so he's applying design principles to your life as opposed to your product or service. And that's our guest. And very interesting stuff, huh? Jeff and Peg?

I think so. Especially since his design thinking helped create the Apple mouse and the first laser printers. Was it laser printers?

Yep.

But I mean, the mouse that's. That's pretty big at the time Apple, like when the. When there wasn't an Apple mouse and that came out, that was a very big product and everybody uses mice every day. So, I mean, it's a big deal. So if you're taking your design thinking, which was a plus, and applying it to your life, it's very cool process, I think.

Yep.

Yes, it was. There's some really great stories in this one. There's always great stories, but this one had some more. If you're an Apple nerd, then there's some really good stuff they talk about at the beginning. A little bit about who came up with evangelist. So kind of just tease that story a little bit.

Guy. Yeah, so I didn't even know this. I learned a lot about Apple doing this podcast. So he tells the story of how he was in a meeting and how the term evangelism came into Apple. And eventually that was my title. So it's a great story. I had never heard that story before. It's not like I assumed that Steve Jobs was reading the Bible every day. So I never just thought about how it came in. But this is a great story about how Apple came to embrace the word and a concept of evangelism.

Very, very cool. So we got an icebreaker question. And by the way, if you are interested in this podcast, make sure you guys go to remarkablepeople.com and we can actually pull it up right here on the screen. You can just hold up your smart device. Go here. And we would love for you guys to leave a rating and review. So Go there, listen to the podcast and let us know. Did you like this episode about Dave Evans? Let you know, give us a rating review right inside of your favorite smartphone app. We'd really appreciate that. But one of the questions we have to get started is it's all about designing your life today. So are you designing your life? So let's talk about what does that mean? Because that's the class he teaches, so designing your life, that seems really kind of a little bit woo. Woo. So how do you.

It's actually the opposite of woo. It's the opposite design principle.

But you don't say that. Most people don't go say, how are you designing your life this year? You know, it's a weird turn of.

Events, but here's the thing. If you want to go by all the, like, quotes that you hear and stuff, like, if you don't make plans, life is what's happening, why you're. Why you're doing other stuff, you know, And I don't know who said that, so I apologize for quoting something I don't remember. But it's true, though. If you're not doing things by design, then you're just letting it happen. And how are you going to have the things that you want to happen happen? It's not going to happen by accident. And someone's not going to, like, write your book for you, put your name on it, or make sure that you have a job that you love. These are things that you can work on. So I think it's great. And it's also so smart that Stanford leaves that in there, because what good is it if you get a great education but you don't know what to do with it afterwards?

And. And he fought resistance at Stanford. Right. First, Stanford wasn't exactly the biggest fan of this class because it is interdisciplinary, falls between all these cracks. So I thought they would be hoisting him on a pedestal as a hero for one of the most popular classes at Stanford. But such is not the case.

So. Yeah. So in the audience, we'd love for you guys to know, what do you guys. Are you designing your life? Are you being very specific on designing your life? One of the questions that Peg came up with was, are you too busy to make meaningful change? And I think that is something. I know we all reflect on this at the beginning of the year, but, Guy, how are you designing your life? Because that's what people are here for. They want to know how Guy Kawasaki designs his life.

I asked Peg what I should do, and I do It.

All right, well, the peg will tell the real thing. He likes to plan his surfing time, so we do things around that. And I've worked with Guy for so long. It used to be hockey. Hockey used to. There used to be, like, unnegotiable hockey time in the middle, so.

But those days. Those days. Well, those days were easier because hockey, you know, every Tuesday and Thursday, there's a game at 11:30am but surfing is completely dependent on really, where the moon is and the tide and the swell. So every day has to change. And it used to be that I could just block hockey on my calendar. Tuesday, Thursday, 11:30 to 1:30. Right. But with the tide, you know, I'm. It's just there's no way that you can make tide block your calendar programmatically. So basically, I want, whenever there's a low tide, an hour before and an hour after. I don't want any business appointments, and there's no way to do that. So if you're out there working for Calendly, there's a talk about a niche.

Integration, but I need a moon.

I need a tide integration application.

So we haven't really ever talked about that before because you do design your life around surfing. But when I first started. When we first started this show, you were doing hockey. Like Peg was saying, what made you change? And do you do hockey anymore?

Well, we did some surfing in Hawaii, and then I discovered surfing in Santa Cruz, and my kids took it up, So I took it up, just like hockey. And I just, I like surfing more. I think surfing is harder than hockey. And, you know, you get hurt in hockey. I, I. Well, I have gotten hurt in surfing, but it's not. You can surf every day, sometimes even twice a day, which I do. But you could not play hockey every day or play hockey twice in a day. Not if you're 67, anyway.

So I just get hurt playing surfing, though.

Well, I mean, at some point, you know, you could. You can get hurt in band, too.

So I'm just saying, though, like, even young, like, didn't your daughter break her.

Arm or did shoulder. Yeah, and Nate kind of broke his heel. And, you know, I've. I've. I've done things. I'm embarrassed to admit this, but sometimes you get thrown off the board and you're tumbling in the water and you don't know which way is up, but you're trying to stroke, you know, do a breaststroke to get back to the surface, because guess what? You got to breathe. And then I have had times where I'M breaststroking and I look down and I say, huh? Why is it getting darker? If I'm going to the surface, it's because I'm breast stroking the wrong way. And then I hit my head on the bottom and oh my gosh.

Yeah, that sounds like a blast.

Surfing is definitely not easy.

I bet it's less dangerous than riding around in a UTV in Texas.

Probably. Yeah. So. So Vincent goes, he says, fabulous episode. And yeah, it's a little hard to. Well, they're, I mean, there's, you know, in Galveston they, I think they surf. I have never done it. But he also, Dan Brown also says.

I've never been on a lawnmower.

You. But you got that. You got like a Polar Polaris to jump around your.

Well, my Polaris is on order right now. I have not a Kawasaki, but a Yamaha. I never know how you pronounce that. Is it Yamaha? Yamaha?

Yamaha is the way we say it in East Texas.

Yamaha in Texas. Oh, that's going to be wrong.

Yaha. Yaha. No, Yamaha. Ted says, this is a great design. Your life around what you enjoy doing the most. Which is. That is very, very true. And he says this is why Guy is so enlightening. So there you go.

Is that why?

Yeah. But Jacob says one of my favorite episodes. So thank you, Jacob, for letting us know with one of his favorite people. Dave Evans is incredible.

Oh, this. I know who this Jacob is. Jacob runs an organization called Digital Nest. And Digital Nest is an organization that I truly love. It basically provides digital training for people and kids in Watsonville. And so this is an alternative career path to agriculture. And so I just think it is wonderful that it opens up this avenues for young kids in Watsonville to have digital careers. And my wife and I are huge supporters of this organization. And you know, I mean, I really. This is a way that I'm trying to help dent the universe a bit. So if you want to help, if you want to support something I support, it's called Digital Nest and it's in Watsonville, California.

Very cool.

And they did some work for. Yeah, for Wise Guy. Video editing. Yeah, the book came out. They created some intros, some videos. Right. It was.

Yeah, I think that's them.

They did a great job.

Just as good and like one tenth the price. Very cool.

So Grady says this, he goes, keep it simple. Don't rest on your last success and keep that childlike curiosity. So I know Guy, that's one of the things that you do and one of the reasons you like Podcasting is because you get to interview all these, you know, remarkable people, but you also do a lot of research. And some people who may just be joining the show may not know how that you. I mean, you pride yourself on reading the books and everything, Right?

Well, like today I'm interviewing John. I'm not sure how you pronounce his last name. B, I, E, W, E, N. And he's at Duke. He's an audio journalist, and he's got his whole thing about racism. And basically his thing is, you know, you know, white people have the problem. I mean, it's their problem. There's a whole. This is going to be a very interesting podcast. And then after that, I have Esther Dyson. Esther Dyson, back in the 80s, 90s and 2000s, was kind of the Kara Swisher of her day. So she was the dominant, I would say, analyst and expert in the computer business. So we're going to revisit a lot of things in the personal computer business. So, you know, I have to have done a lot of research for both of these. And one of the things I pride myself in is I'd like to think that at the end of every podcast interview, the guest is thinking, that was the most interesting, most challenging and most well prepared interview I've ever had. That's my goal.

Yeah.

And I think we need to get Terry Gross on the show.

Yeah.

You know, Malcolm Gladwell said, okay, and then he ghosted me and Marquis Brownlee. I kind of had to cancel. And then I think he said, God, you cancel me, Tough shit. But he can get away with that. I would. I. I just love interviewing people. I love the prep. I love the questions, and I really love the editing, which Jeff loves. That I love. Yeah.

I mean, it's a fun gig to have, I won't lie. Let's go back to this question because I think this is. Are you too busy to make meaningful changes now? Guy is lucky enough that he gets to surf every day. But when you were first starting, and I know a lot of people, a lot of entrepreneurs watch this, how do you handle the busyness? I can just imagine that at Apple you were running ragged all the time and you're trying to, you know, advance your career and all this stuff. What do you tell people about this?

Well, first of all, it. I mean, it was just a great time and we were changing the world, denting the universe, preventing totalitarian takeover of information, etc. Etc. So we were on a mission. We weren't just trying to ship a computer and working For Steve Jobs, I was definitely in the reality distortion field. Nope questions asked. In fact, I helped perpetuate the reality distortion field. So, yeah, we were busy. But you know what? I don't remember it as a busy time. I remember it as just a glorious. Oh, my God, you know, I would have paid to work at the Macintosh division. And I also think some of it is sort of. It's retroactive, reminiscing sort of perspective, right. That I think as you get older, you always remember when you were younger as great times. Well, not always, because some people really had hard youths, but so I think, you know, it's always as people get older, they're always. Well, you know, I used to work really hard. Not like these millennials right now. And all they do is they wake up and then they, you know, they do their yoga, and then they get their avocado toast with their. With their cup of coffee that has non gmo, you know, I don't know, soybean, whatever. And. And then they go to work for an hour, but they're really watching YouTube. And then they go for lunch at a taco bar, at a. At a outdoor cafe, and then he come back and he worked for a couple more hours, and then go home, and then they, you know, binge on Netflix. But when I was young, I used to work all the time. That's bullshit. It's like, don't get me started.

I think that the question. I get what you're saying, too, but the question was kind of leading into the lifestyle that entrepreneurs have created where they're just working all the time and everybody's just like, oh, I'm so busy. Like, how are you doing? I'm so busy. Where we're glorification of busy as we go back to our Ariana conversations, you know, where she talked about that, where people want to say that they're so busy because it's, you know, they're perpetuating some kind of myth about how they're working harder. And if you want to. Really, the people who are taking time to go to the taco bar for lunch are probably doing it smarter because they're taking a break and watching a break from their computers. So I think that people can get so stuck in the busyness of things that maybe they're not moving forward. They're like, I'm just in this, and I can't do anything different.

And, well, okay, here's a question. Do you think that Shayla works as hard or harder or less hard than you did at her Age.

Shayla is much better at sticking to the schedule. I am a type. He's a type a person. I'm a type a person. But I was the one. I was out always working overtime. Always working overtime. I just work so hard and that's just how I am. Like, I just have this need to, like, be good at my job. And she's great at her job, but she's also great at if it's five o', clock, so now I'm done with my job. Even working at home, she's really good at sticking to. And I think that's one thing that the younger generation is better at is working the hours that you need to work and then not working. Where I think our generation is more like, you got to work all the time because we'll stop spinning if you're not working.

Wait, what? What's the answer? So she works more or less or equal to you when you are her age?

I probably worked more hours, but that doesn't mean that I did better.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? In some ways, I think she's doing it the right way.

Yeah. Yeah.

There's no prize at the end of your life for having work the most and being the busiest.

That's true. Yeah.

Very few people say, oh, shit, I regret I should have worked harder in my life. I've never heard anybody say that.

Right. And when you hear those people that have interviewed people at the end of their lives, they always wish that they spent more time with their family and that they took time for vacation. So it's very hard to not be someone who, I think when you're working in social media, it's just like 10 years of working in social media. You're constantly checking notifications and did this post. Right. And it, like, it's. It's a hard job to turn off, but I am better at it now. You know, nothing is not. The world is not going to explode if you don't check Twitter for a little while.

But I. I know that at the end of my life, I am not going to say I should have surfed more because I am surfing as much as I possibly can.

I think a lot of the European, they take a lot more breaks than we do in the U.S. i think they've got it right. And we don't sometimes do it like they do. They're able to turn it off a little bit more. This is a great question.

Six weeks off in summer. I would take that.

Mary Jan says this guy, when you interview people, do you try to Ask questions they like to answer.

Or.

Or do you ask questions you want to ask? That's a great question.

I ask questions I want to ask. It's not about making them answer questions they like to answer. I want to ask them a question. What makes me happiest in an interview is when the person says, that's a great question. Or when the person says, no one has ever asked me that, ever.

I think going back to what the person asked, sometimes when you write a book. When you write a book, there's like a list of suggested questions for the author. And then people are like, cool, I'll just use this whole list of suggested questions.

I don't even look at those.

Asked the same thing every single interview. And then either they're so bored by answering it, they're kind of doing an okay job, or. Or they just have this prepared answer where it's like, oh, well, let me tell you, on page 32, I talked about that in my book Joy of Being Joyful. And I think the way guy does it, you get better answers because people are think. They take a second to think about it. Oh, I haven't been asked that before. And then you're getting a unique perspective on what they talk about, but not the same, you know, question number five off the list.

I interviewed Keith Ferrazi a few weeks ago, and I worked him over. I mean, you know, Keith is all about. First of all, I can't remember the name of his book, but the concept is Going Forward to Work as opposed to going backward to work. So the way I opened up the interview was, keith, why didn't you name your book Going Forward to Work? Because that is so catchy, so memorable. And case in point, I can't remember the name of his book because it's not as catchy. So we went through a whole discussion of that. Now, some people may listen to that episode, say, God, what the hell? Are you wasting my time discussing the author's title? Or you could see that, you know, that is how my mind works. And I guarantee you, no one ever told Keith in the first 30 seconds of his interview, you should have named your book the other thing. So I like to do that. I like to. I want. In my first question of a podcast, I want the people to know, oh, shit, this guy really prepared. He didn't just look me up in Wikipedia. He didn't just get the publicist stock questions. This guy really, really prepared. And that's my test. So, you know, between Jeff Pegg and Madison all, like, feeding me Ideas. And then I just do a lot of research. I'm just trying to drive it home every time.

And since I do the editing and a lot of times, sometimes we don't put it in there. No, I was going to say, more often than not, you do get the guests going. You know, no one's ever asked me that before. You know, there's a lot of the interviews that you've done that's happened. They're like, oh, but you also don't try to.

You should rename the podcast. You should rename it. No one's ever asked me that before.

But the thing, too, is you. But you don't try to trip them up. You're not going, like, to get them and, like, have them, like, admit their deep, darkest secrets. You. They're remarkable for a reason, and you're asking them good questions. So I think that's. That's important, too.

So his book is called Competing in the New World of Work. And then his. It's interesting because his subtitles at the top, How Radical Adaptability Separates the Best from the Rest.

That's a lot.

Okay, so, okay, which title do you think is better? Go Forward to Work or whatever you just read. I can't even remember 30 seconds later.

It was too long. I think his editor did need to work with him on that title a little bit. It's long.

They talked about that, too.

Yeah. But on the other hand, what he said is that his previous book, Never Eat Alone, he fought against that title, and that is a great title. Never Eat Alone is a great title for a book, so.

But it also, like, leaders eat last. I would get confused with those two since.

Oh, yeah.

Since we're talking about work and, you know, trying to make meaningful change and designing your life. This is a great question by Carolyn. She goes, do you think the pandemic. Wrong question. It moved right when I did it there. Do you think the pandemic changed how people perceive work and the importance of career in their lives? So has the pandemic changed the way people view work?

Well, yeah, I mean, in so many ways and not all consistently. Right. So I think some people realize that family is more important. Some people probably realize they're sick of their family, too. I think it's changed it in many ways. I think bosses have figured out that, you know, the way of measuring someone's value and productivity is to not see their butt in a seat. So it's not the physical presence, it's the actual throughput.

Right. I'd agree. So on that Note, because I think this pandemic has done this as well. Is the second question that Pegasus put together is like, have you ever used a gratitude journal? Because I know I have become. You know, I'm seeing my family through a new light. I'm becoming more grateful, or at least trying to. But a gratitude journal. So what is that?

We should have Jeff's wife on as a guest.

No, that would be bad.

That's the PK for sure. That was ingrained in him growing up to appreciate what he has.

But I haven't been the best at it, and I'm trying to do better. Yeah.

You know what that is, right, Guy?

No.

It's a preacher's kid.

Preacher's kid. My dad's a real.

You're a preacher's kid? Yeah.

Really? Yeah.

Well, shit.

And there we go. So gratitude journal, Penguin.

You know what? My wife is a preacher's kid.

Yeah, I know that. I knew that. Yeah.

Now you can call her a pk.

Yeah. Huh. I didn't know that. I learned something.

So, a gratitude journal. There's been a lot of studies on being. Having gratitude in your life and having that bring help you realize what you have and what you want and those kind of things. And that's part of what he works into the design your life class.

And the.

Is a gratitude journal. There are some. There's a book. Oh, Sarah. I can't remember the name. Sarah. Somebody that starts with an A. I did, a long time ago, did a whole gratitude journal. And especially, I think, during the pandemic, it's been really good because it's so hard. We're all like. We've all chunks of our lives are gone because of all these changes that we're making. So it's like just appreciating what you do have instead of what you don't have. And, you know, certainly health is probably way higher on my list and probably other people's, where maybe we just didn't think about it as much. But now you just can't take health for granted. And that's changed for, you know, wearing masks and all of those things. Like, I'm grateful that we have vaccines. I'm grateful that we have health care. But just being appreciative of things, and then when you start it, you have bigger things, and then it gets down into the smaller things. Like, I'm appreciative that today I can find X at the store, because now we're getting into, like, toilet paper. We all know I want my cotton out.

I'm Grateful. I'm grateful when I catch a wave and Madison catches the same wave and doesn't drop in on me and ding my board. That's in my gratitude journal quite often, actually.

Okay, how often has she actually done that?

Ding my board or drop in on me?

Drop in.

Well, let's say we're out together. Not together, but we're surfing at the same time for two hours. I don't know, four or five times maybe. I have video. I have some video of her dropping. I have video proof of this.

So explain this for us land. Landlocked landlubbers. What is so bad about somebody dropping in on your wave? Is it like the big. Is it like somebody sneezing right in your face? I mean, how bad is it?

No, no, because you can't get coronavirus from a drop in. So, okay, to make a long story short, as a wave is coming in, there's a peak and there's two shoulders. Okay? So theoretically, surfing etiquette is two factors. Who kind of gets the wave? It's the person closest to the peak, because that's the best part of the wave. And the person who stands up first. So somebody stands up before you. You're supposed to back off and not catch the wave. That person, you know, for whatever his skill, his ability, her ability, got the wave. So a drop in means that someone is in a better position, is already standing up. And even though that's true, you go and you get in their way. It's as if. It's kind of like when you merge onto a freeway. If the car is already in that lane, is right on your ass, you know, you shouldn't merge right there. You should wait till there's an open space. But Madison and I have evolved this into a game. It's kind of like playing Frogger in the water, you know? So now everybody's too young to know what Frogger is, but it's. It's kind of a game of I catch a wave. And she purposely. And we purposely try to drop in on each other to see, you know, and then I'm sure that people who don't know us are watching from the shore. Look at those two idiots. That Japanese guy is just constantly dropping in on that girl. And. And half the other people are saying, look at that girl. She's constantly taking away from that Japanese guy. And so there's a lot going on in the water.

Yes.

I did not know there was traffic there. Yeah.

So Jonathan goes. Do you wear a helmet when you surf? Because it sounds like one of the two, you need to.

Well, you know, we. I've, I've never worn a helmet. I would rather hurt my head than look that stupid. But I know you know, you.

Does anybody wear helmets?

I would say if you go out surfing one day and one person is wearing a helmet out of 30 or 40 people even that's rare. So hardly anybody. The scenario where you get where your head hits the board or hits somebody else is not that common. And at the place we surf, it's, it's not deadly. The waves are not that big, so you can ding each other's boards. Yesterday, Noah's girlfriend borrowed my board and put a huge ding in it. But I mean, it's not. I mean, it's, it's not. I wouldn't say it's dangerous except when you, except when you're tumbling around in the water and you're stroking and you're going deeper. That's not good.

Probably not. That's interesting. So we've got some surf etiquette lessons too. We should do a whole podcast episode about how to.

Somebody's gonna comment, Guy, you have no idea what the frick you're talking about surfing.

So. Okay, well, let's go back to something.

Because we don't know anything about.

Yeah, we don't. I have an idea. So getting back to something we do know, and this is something I could answer, is that what would you tell a 14 year old on how to design his or her life? She believes that you should start young, which I think is true as well. But what would you tell if you were went to a class of 14 year olds, Guy, and they said, tell us how to design our life, Guy Kawasaki, what would you tell them?

I would say, don't listen to anybody over 50. Number one. I think the major. Let's start with the negative. I think the major mistake people give to young people is, is pursue your passions. And I think that sets people up for failure. Because now everybody who's 14 is thinking, oh my God, I'm 14 years old. I don't have my passion yet. I don't know if I want to be a surfer. I don't want to know if I want to be an artist. I don't know if I want to be a, you know, assembly language programmer. I don't have my passion. You know, I'm behind the curve. It's total bullshit. I'm 67. I don't know what my passion is yet. And so I think the much more realistic test is pursue things you find interesting. And maybe one of them will develop into a lifelong passion. But to make the standard so high that it has to be this quote unquote passion is absolutely, absolutely, I think, overreaching. And so just, you know, be open, find few interests, pursue your interest. Maybe it'll develop into a passion. And if I may just digress one more point, I would also make the opposite case, which is there's this concept that you discover your passion, you work your ass off it, you get good, and then you make money. I will tell you that it's as likely that you will do something, you'll make a lot of money, and then afterwards you'll develop a passion for it, right? So, you know, take an extreme example. So you are a programmer. You go to work for, you know, mypets.com. you don't have a dog, you don't have a cat. You don't even care about dogs and cats. You're just a programmer and you're making, you know, the website work well, but you're an early employee. You're employee number 10 of MyPets.com. you don't give a shit about dogs and cats. And then mypets.com does do an extreme.

About dogs and cats.

Well, okay, so then, now, now, you know, it's five years later and your stock is worth 250 million bucks, right? Let me tell you something. You're going to love dogs and cats. You're going to say animals, that's my passion. I love dogs and I love cats. So it can work the opposite way.

Too, in this scenario.

Well, the other thing is too, is when you're young, like podcasting and live streaming and all this stuff did not exist when I was in grade school. I mean, this job didn't exist.

You know, I think it's cool when people do find something that they're interested in and then they get so niche into it that they create, like really in the creator world that we're in now, like, you can take. You can actually take your passion and turn it into a thing. And sometimes you would think there's like, no way that would be, like, interesting or good. But there's this. The guy that I found on TikTok, and he does pottery. And just during the pandemic, he taught himself. He took a class and then he does it. He does like, he throws the pottery. He has like a wheel. He does. He shows all the steps of it. It's fascinating. I think it's cool during the pandemic how people have really heightened their passions that also you can have a passion, interest. What?

Interests, not passions.

Well, or is it a passion if it makes you money?

What? Say it again.

What is it? Are you only saying it's your passion if it makes you money?

No, I like. I think the. To set young people up, that they have to find their passion or they're missing out in life, I think is overreaching, that the bar should not be that high. Right.

I think I'm saying sometimes you can have a passion and it can just be a side thing that you enjoy it.

Sure. What about, like. Sure. Jonathan says people don't find dream jobs, they make them. So is that what you're. You're saying, guy, that's.

Oh, I did that.

I have to say, I did do that. I created my. My dream job. But what's that?

Why'd you quit it?

Are you doing your dream job now or that before.

I am doing my dream job now.

Okay.

Just making sure. I wonder if Madison thinks it's. Madison thinks that she has her dream job right now. We'll see. I'll ask her next time she drops in on me.

Okay. But I think sometimes. Sometimes you can create your dream job, and sometimes I think if there's areas of your job that you really like, you can come up with ideas and expand your job to make it work what you like. Some people in big companies will use Canva for an example. Zach at Canva is amazing. He started out doing, like, PR communications, and he went and did a whole bunch of different jobs in the company. He was like head of people, which is human resources. He was like head of a country when. For. With the Philippines, when it started. And now he's like chief marketing officer. So sometimes within the same job per se, you could pursue different interests and. And find different things that you like in the same company.

You know, I. I forget who gave me this advice, but it was in a recent interview, and. And. And the advice was, you know, before you quit job, to find the perfect job, you should try to fix the job you're in. Because this one.

This one was how to head. How to quit.

Yeah.

Well, yeah. So this is. Jonathan asked, Guy, is podcasting your dream job?

What was that?

It was my. My smoke detector.

It was doing. See, I would have edited that out if I were interviewing.

I would have left it in because it's real life, man. So is podcasting your dream job?

Well, I mean, I would. Okay, we're getting deep here. I would say that podcasting is now a passion for me, and I would Say that one of the tests for the Passion is would you do it even if you're not getting paid? And believe me, that's true with podcasting. I don't see an economic model for podcasting, but I like it so much I do it. So I think that is a very good test. You know, when you. Well, Mark Manson, who wrote the Subtle Art of Not Giving a. You know what, he gave a great piece of advice, which is, you know, you've discovered something you truly love when it involves eating shit sandwiches that you like to do. So for me, podcasting, which is preparing for the interview and then editing the interview, those are not fun processes. Those are difficult process. It's. They are shit sandwiches. They just happen to be shit sandwiches that I love. So that, that's kind of why, you know, it's evidence that, that podcasting is a passion because it contains several shit sandwiches that I love.

So now we're getting to dietary requirements. So the, the last question I wanted to talk about, because we're talking about designing your life and we're talking about, you know, passion, if that's what we should follow and not. And Peg actually was on the show that I do, and we talked about this because of social media. Have you ever created a five year plan? And one of the things we talked about is things change so much. It's hard to have a five year plan. I think you can have five year plans for like what you want to do in your life. Like, I want to write a book in the next five years. I'm going to start now, whatever. But I think sometimes with business stuff, it's hard to have a five year plan because things are changing so much. Like, I mean, so what are your thoughts of a five year plan?

Okay, bullshit. I think they're bullshit. So if you have a plan to write a book in five years, you're never going to write the book. You should write a book because you have something burning inside you and you want to get it out. And if you have something burning inside you, you're not going to wait five years to do it. You're going to get it out now or you're not. So I don't like five year plans. Now there is. I'm not saying I'm against planning. I'm saying that a five year plan, you might as well say I'm never gonna do it. Just admit it, I got a five year plan to, you know, I don't know what clown might. I guess you could say it's gonna take me Five years of prep to be able to surf at Mavericks. That would be at 72, there's no way I'm surfing at Mavericks. That'd be the last time I ever go out.

So wear a helmet.

So, yeah, they should just cremate me out there. Save a step.

I think the five year plan is in the designing your life class and book. So if you were at Stanford and you were just about to graduate. So if you look at it from that perspective, I think there's different stages in your life when you would have the five year plan and the ten year plan. Like Dori Clark said she had a ten year plan. If you have a five year plan and you're just getting out of college, you know, you're like, okay, I want to, you know, find a job. I want to, you know, maybe move to a new city, you know, you might have bigger. I think at different times of your life, your five year plans are different.

Yeah.

So do either of you have something, a five year plan?

Either of you? I have like big goals. My thing is like, I want to. The next five years. Every year I want to make sure I have a big trip with my kids in some way. Even if they get married or whatever. I want to make sure that family we have. That.

That's not a five year plan, Jeff.

But in the next five. I mean, every year it is. I mean, it's like.

I mean, no, a five year plan would be like in five years I'm gonna take my entire family to Tahiti.

Okay, well, yeah, I mean, I guess that would be one or lower my cholesterol. I don't know what it would be.

I mean, what's the l' oreal cholesterol? Should be five days plans.

I have like, I have like things I want to do. Like we have a plan because we have a. How old is our house? 222 year old house, so.

Really?

Yeah, it was built in 1800.

222 year old house. Wow. Is there ethernet built in?

I'm wired. So we have like plans that we want to do, but we have like stages of the plans because we can't do all of them at once. So our first thing that we did was we put solar in because our house is kind of a construction, a historical house. So we're trying to like, figure out how our family brings like value to our house and keep. Maintains the all the historical integrity. But it's a big house, so solar was a, a really good thing to put in.

That's cool.

You also Put in a great toolbox.

Yeah. But it's. I don't think it's full yet, but yeah. And Rich uses those tools. It's plaster walls and everything. So he's like, I'm not gonna. You know, like, he's. He. At our other house, he would. He put our whole kitchen, and he did the whole entire. He did every single part of the kitchen in this house. He's like, I really. Taking it apart.

Do you have running water?

Yes, we do.

And Rich. Moe's, too. I think so. He also. Yeah. So there you go. So this is from Mitch, our friend, Mitch Jackson. He goes. His interest and passion seems to change all the time. So there's that. That makes planning hard, but each day of the week is an adventure. That's a great attitude, Mitch. I think that's kind of maybe the core of everything we're talking about. This is a great question about podcasting. Regarding podcasting. What is difficult exactly? You make it like a natural. You're like a natural, and you have people helping at your command. That's right. He does.

Hey, fix my podcast.

Wait, wait, wait. Who. Who's at my command here? Let's review this.

I guess you're people.

Yeah. If they only knew. Man, you guys tell me what to do.

It's true.

It's reversed.

But you have all you get. You have the good question. So I guess the. You know. But you have learned to communicate and listen throughout the years. And I think if I have, I.

Don'T know why anybody would think podcasting is easy. Like, all the pieces of it are. It's like blogging, you know, like, people are like, oh, you should start a blog or you should start a podcast. It's a lot when you're doing a great job. It does look easy, but both are hard.

But one of the things with a good podcaster is, especially with Guy's type of podcast, with the interview style, you can't just have a list of questions and rattle them off. You have to listen and then respond with those questions to make. To lead the listener on a journey. And I think Guy does that with, you know, where he's going with the podcast.

Well, you know, I think if you listen to some, I mean, it'd be interesting. How much research and prep does Joe Rogan do? Do you think he's probably three hours?

I think he just talks.

Yeah, you press some questions.

But he has about 6 million more downloads than I do every session, so what do I know? Maybe I'll do Joe Rogan style.

But he's been doing it for how many years now?

I don't know. So the problem is I was never an MMA fighter.

That's. That's what you should start.

Went wrong. That's where I went wrong. It's not.

That should be your passion. Five year plan.

So what, Madison, that's mma.

Ding in the board. What's the number one thing you want to achieve in five years? And we'd love for the people in the audience to know what. Yeah, in next five.

I want to. I want to walk to the nose of my surfboard and hang 10. I think I'm obsessed with surfing.

Yeah, you are.

I know.

What is the number one thing? I. I don't even want to say. I want to write a novel, but I haven't. I just have, like, an idea and some slight research. I don't know if I can do it.

You can do it.

I'm gonna try.

See, how about. How about someone post comments on a podcast, live broadcast, and it turns out to be a murderer?

What?

Oh, for a book. I was like, here, now you want.

To write a fiction. You want to write fiction, right?

I do want to write fiction, but I don't know if it's. It's historical fiction. So there is no podcast.

So this. I think this is great from Jonathan. He says, don't compare yourself to Joe. He's worthy. He's a worthy rival, not a measure of your success. Thank you, Jonathan.

You're just so nice every week.

That's really good. That's really good. So.

Well, Terry Gross.

He'S been doing it for a while.

Yeah, she's a. She's. She's such a good interviewer. I think she's amazing. I don't think you need to compare yourself to people. I think that's the biggest thing. I think comparison is another quote. I'll quote comparison is the greatest thief of joy. Because you worry about, like, not. I think being the best you is always the best.

Totally true.

I mean, we talked about it. I just talked about it. But, like, when you're in social media and you work in marketing, you get so hung up on metrics and likes and impressions and all that kind of stuff that it's kind of a bummer if things aren't going the right way and you're doing, like, really great stuff. Maybe we just need to not look at those a little bit sometimes and just hope that the good work speaks for itself. As you tell me, Guy, I don't know how many times you told me this, but it's multiple. That cream always rises to the top. I'll quote you back to you.

Oh, the number one thing I want to achieve is to get Ryan Reynolds on the show.

If you've ever written that in a book, you tell me that.

What cream rises to the top?

Yeah.

First of all, you know what we should check? Is that literally biologically true? I don't know.

That's how they make butter. See, I know that from Kansas.

Growing up in Kansas Science.

Have you ever churned your own butter? I have.

I did.

For example, I have. I've turned my own podcast. So, for example. You know, another. Another saying that people always use is picking the low hanging fruit. But I read, and I hope this is right, that the low hanging fruit, which is not in the sun, is most likely not to be ripe.

Depends on the.

Yeah, you should pick the high hanging fruit.

Yeah. But the low hanging fruit is the easiest. It doesn't mean it's the ripest. It just means it's the easiest to get.

Yeah.

It doesn't mean it may not taste good.

Hmm.

Yeah, we're getting deep in this one. So my goal, when I, when I had this question, I was like, all I want is to have Ryan Reynolds on the show. So Peg would.

Who's Ryan Reynolds?

He would just.

Oh, my God. Who's Ryan Reynolds?

He is. He's a marketing genius, but he's a. He's an actor. He's a businessman. Peg, she's his number one fan. What.

What movie is he.

Which is even sadder.

What movie?

Every movie. He was in Free Guy. He was in. What was the.

I didn't see Free Guy.

You should see it. It's got your name in it.

I'm Expensive Guy. He's a guy that's in a video, but he's a background character, but he doesn't know it.

Oh, here's a great question. If Guy could interview anyone on his podcast, living or dead, who would it be?

Ryan Reynolds.

I don't even know who he is. I'd have to do a lot of background research. Let's, let's.

Living or dead, let's.

Let's make it a little more realistic. So it's only people, Right? So if, If God said, okay, I'm giving you a. No pun intended, trump card. You can interview any live person you want. Who would it be? Stacey Abrams.

I would almost put Steve Martin or Lorne Michaels up there. I think SNL is such a cultural phenomenon and it's so like the people. I think, having worked with all those people and leading all those people. And then also, Tina Fey is like my icon writer. I love her. But if it was somebody who passed away, I would say Nora Ephraim.

You know, my, My. My hesitation with picking stars and starlets, you know, actors and actresses, is that we get this impression about them from their movies and their appearances and all that, but they are fundamentally acting.

So, you know, people like Steve Martin, she.

She's.

She's created. She wrote Mean Girls. That is like a.

A musician, a artist, an author, but.

Maybe he's just a great actor. How do you know if he's truly a great person?

I would say he would be remarkable. Wouldn't you pay?

Am I just beyond remarkable? He's hysterical, but he also. He does. He's somebody who could have just been a comedian, but like Jeff said, he also writes novels. He's a musician. He's an art collector, Broadway show. He does cartoons for the New York. He writes textbook for the New Yorker. Cartoons.

I don't know. I'm just. I'm just being a little bit of a devil's advocate here. But with Steve Martin, how do we know that's just not really good packaging by his publicity team.

He just worked on Only Murders in the Building, which is brilliant.

If he was just an actor, like, he was just. If he just. If he just acted, that would be one thing. But he plays in concert halls. He plays. I mean, he writes. I mean, he's. Bestselling novels and I mean, Grammy album.

Yeah, sorry, Stacy, if you're out there listening, sorry, you just dropped the number two. You just dropped the number two.

Steve Martin. We would still have to interview you, though. He just got nominated for SAG Award for Only Murders in the Building. And his age, I think he's in his 70s, late 70s. Like, he just wrote one of the top shows. Wrote and starred in and produced one of the top shows. I think that's remarkable.

But.

Yeah, Nora.

But in my humble opinion, Stacey Abrams may have prevented the end of democracy. That's a bigger deal than being in, you know.

Yes, but also, if we had zero entertainment during the pandemic, we would be in an even darker place. But, yes, Stacy Abrams, I think what she means.

We had a shitload of entertainment. We could watch Rudy Giuliani every day. Like, the things dying, coming down his face. He's in the room with that girl. I mean, it's like. It was fantastic entertainment during the pandemic.

That just depresses me. All right, so you know what. What we can do is people. We would love for you guys to tell us who you would love to see. And you could even join our community by going to Remarkable People community at circle. And here's the URL you can go to Bit Ly Remarkable People Circle. Make sure you get the capitalization correct. It's Bit Ly Remarkable People Circle. Tell us who you would love to see on the podcast. What are you doing? My job.

No, no, I know you're doing your job. Well, it's just the stupidity of being case sensitive bitly just is remarkable. I. I can't tell you how that has got to be one of the stupidest things I have ever heard in my life. Really. And I've heard a shitload of stupid stuff.

So Mitch agrees on Stacy because Mitch is a responsible person.

Oh, somebody asked. So I don't know about this one. Madonna would be probably one a hard get and I don't. Would you say she's. I mean, I just don't.

Yeah, I'm not into the star thing. I'm into like people who have dented the universe thing.

Yeah, we've. This would be great.

Mitch.

The Obamas. Yeah.

But that was just her pointy bra.

Greta Thunberg would be another one.

I would love to see more chefs on the show. I liked your shift interview when you did.

Oh, Roy Yamaguchi.

Yeah. And the other one, Andrew Zimmern. Yeah. It was early. Those were early days. Yeah. That was a good.

Greta Thunberg is 100 changing the world. Gloria Steinem, if we want to go OG changing the world. He's. He's also very socially aware. But yeah. Gloria Steinem would be Bill Gates.

That would be an awesome interview.

Yeah.

He's gone down a little, in my opinion. Maybe Melissa Gates because of the divorce. Yep. In his association with people that maybe, you know.

Yeah. I don't think anybody who knows can be on our show.

How about this one? Mitch guy's wife and kids. That would be great.

But we have to have Beth interview guy.

Oh, God.

That would be. That would boost our ratings. That's. We save that for ratings week. So we. You never answered the question, Guy. As we. As we. As we. If we wrap this up, what would you want to do? What would be your like to achieve in the next five years? The number one thing I answer.

What are you talking about? I said I want to. I want to cross step to the nose of my board and hang 10.

Okay.

That's right. You've said it before.

You're the only one that didn't answer.

I just want to have. I want to beat Joe Rogan in podcasting for Guy. That's all I want.

Now that is a worthy goal. Now you're talking. Now you are talking. That's right.

So with that, I think we have hit the end of our time. Thank you guys so much for watching Mitch, Jonathan, Annette, all of you in the comments, great questions today. Thank you, guys. Make sure you do go to the. To the circle and sign up. And, you know, we'd love to hear who. Who. You'd love that maybe we didn't. We haven't thought of you, so.

But to put a little. Little a fine point on that, we would love to hear who you want, but we would love to hear who you want that you can get us to. Right. Because, you know, your fantasy of getting. My fantasy of getting Stacey Abrams is not that useful unless I get, you know. Okay, in an ideal point, you would send us a comment that says, I know Stacey Abrams. I can introduce you to her. That's what we want. Not just, oh, yeah, go get Bono. I don't know Bono. How am I going to like Bono at Twitter and send him a tweet? How am I going to get that? So I need someone. I need people you want on the podcast and you can get us to. That's. That's useful.

That is your homework for this week.

That's right.

With that Guy and Peg. Thank you so much, Guy. Any last words before we end the.

No, I'm. I gotta prepare for these two episodes today.

Oh, who's coming up next? We didn't talk about that. So this week was BJ Fog is.

Our next episode, which is great for.

The beginning of the year. It was a good interview.

Yeah.

Tiny habits.

I. I don't sleep with my iPhone anymore because of BE and Catherine Price.

I don't sleep with mine anymore because Guy will text me late because he's on California tonight.

There's this thing called do not disturb, you know, Anyway.

Oh, sorry.

But you know what? Okay, listen to this. I have a new habit and sometimes I break it, but if it's after 5, I schedule all my emails to go out at 8am Pacific the next day. And on the weekends, I schedule all my emails to go out Monday morning at 8am so after five and on weekends, I do not send people email anymore.

Very cool.

Right? Yeah.

Peg and I are dancing. You just can't tell.

Yeah.

But then at 8am man, your inbox is gonna explode.

Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.

Yeah, so be on the lookout for the BJ Fogg episode. It's really, really good. Tiny Habits. Great book. Yeah, great stuff for the beginning of the year. With that, I guess I'll say aloha. Bye, everybody.

Bye.