Remarkable People Behind the Podcast: The Power of Influence

Sam.

My name is Guy Kawasaki. I am Chief Evangelist of Canva, creator of the Remarkable People podcast. It is Wednesday, May 12th and I am in Santa Cruz, California. As a matter of fact, I just surfed and according to my Apple Watch, which is infallible, I caught 20 waves. But usually you have to throw away about 15 of those 20. So no, you have to throw away five of those 20. So it's 15. So Wednesdays that means that we have a new episode of Remarkable People. And this today at 6:30 Pacific, we shipped a new episode with. Truly an inspiring person. I have loved his writing, I have loved interacting with him. He has definitely influenced much of my marketing, sales, social media and evangelism. And that should be narrowing down the field of who I could possibly be referring to. And the answer to who I'm referring to is Bob Cialdini. And he wrote this book. Well, this is the new version of his book. And I will tell you that I think that if you are in business, and in a sense who isn't in business, if you want to influence and persuade people, you have got to read this book. And the previous version was roughly half as thick. So this version, which came out this week, basically added about 200 pages. And I think it has influenced my career, my evangelism, my entrepreneurship, I would say, for the last 20 years. And listen, when an author tells you to buy somebody else's book, there is no more sincere form of flattery. And so I am telling you to buy the new and expanded version of Influence, the psychology of Persuasion. Bob has. Bob is the first person. I have to be careful here. So Bob is the first person to have two full episodes on Remarkable People because. Because he's just that remarkable. Now some astute people may point out that I had a episode where I had nine people on it, and Bob was on that too. So that was about the psychology of vaccination. So Bob was. Had his own episode about a year ago. He was on that vaccine episode. So that's his second appearance. So technically this is his third appearance, but this is the second time he had a full episode all by himself. So that's why I say this is the first person to be on Remarkable People twice. And I will, I'll tell you that he has added a new factor. So he had the basic factors of reciprocation and social proof. And there, you know, there were the big six. And then in this edition of the book, he added another one and it's called unity. And unity is the new big social media influence. So we're going to get into that a little. And you know, a lot of, if you think about it, a lot of what happened in social media has really, really, I would say, supplemented Bob's theories. It hasn't replaced Bob theories. And so, for example, something like social proof. Well, social proof pre social media and pre Internet meant that, well, you know, if you see one person wearing a shirt, you might want the same shirt or the same shoe, or, you know, if you see somebody using an ipod with white earbuds, you would want to have the same thing with white earbuds. So that was analog social proof, but digital social proof is a whole lot different. And it's all about how you.

How.

You convince people that they are making a safe decision because others have made the same decision. So I don't know, I'm just like gushing here. I just love Bob's work. And one of my favorite things, one of the favorite big sixes he has is about reciprocation. And so one of the skills of influence is reciprocation, and I'm a huge believer in that. I truly do believe in reciprocating. And if anything, I believe in precipitating, which is a new term I'm inviting inventing. Precipitating, of course, means that you do something in advance as opposed to reciprocate, which is you do something after. And that leads me to another of Bob's concepts, which is pre suasion. And pre suasion is the concept that there are certain conditions you can create to make your persuasion even easier and more successful. And so he has actually written an entire book about persuasion. But that is, that is something that you should also look into. So let's see. So as a starter comment, why don't you send questions about how you need to influence and persuade people, questions about the techniques of influence and persuasion. And also I would really be curious. I mean, who do you truly find some. Who, who do you really consider persuasive and influential? And I don't mean in the sense of, you know, some star athlete because that's, that's just advertising and branding. I mean, someone who is persuasive who actually changes your mind as opposed to gets you to buy a kind of eyeliner or something. So send that over. So, yeah, who, who do you consider a great influence? And Jeff, any questions flowing in? Because start sending those questions in.

We're ready.

Oh, I have been prompted. So I have a text message system and if you send a text message to 8-316-090-0628 it's a way to register for a text based communication system with what I call the extended ohana. I have a mailchimp database and every Wednesday I send out an announcement that a new version of Remarkable People is out and that goes to about 19,000 people. But that is truly one way. This text message, if you join, it's more two way. So the way it works is you join and then I send out these one to many text messages. But then if you respond, you are responding one to one. And then if I respond to your response, then we are truly in a one to one conversation. And I find that more people read their text messages than read their email when we can tell that from the open rates. So in a perfect world, in a truly perfect world, everybody, all 19,000 people in my Mailchimp database would sign up for the text based system and get out of mailchimp. Now there is one huge caveat though, that this text based system only works with Canada and the U.S. they just haven't, you know, it's like it's a landmine or it's a series of landmines to try to make use of your text based system work with the privacy laws of countries around the world. So right now they've only done U.S. and Canada. So in a perfect world, everybody on my mailchimp database who is in the US and Canada would get off mailchimp and get onto this text based system. And you would do that with 831-609-0628. Now Jeff, any questions about influence and persuasion? LinkedIn user, my mom. What, what was, who's producing this show? What do you. Okay, so I'll tell you who I consider very good influencers besides your mom. Simon Sinek. Absolutely. Simon Sinek I would say is one. Obviously Bob Cialdini is one. Katie Milkman, who was last week's guest, she's one. Ariana Huffington is one. I would say David Auror is one, the father of branding, just like Bob is.

Okay, then I'm fine as well.

Never, never refuse success. So I just got through telling people that they have to buy this book if they want to succeed in life. So I've done your dirty work already. So now I told them that there's a new factor called unity. So maybe you can explain unity as the new factor in influence and persuasion.

Well, I'm happy to describe that principle. It's the one that allows a communicator to be more successful by moving to a position in which people in your audience feel that you are one of them, you share a category in which they feel there's an important social identity that you share with them. Let's take an example from a study that was done on a college campus a while ago. Researchers took a young woman, college age student, put her in a heavily trafficked area of campus and asked her to solicit contributions for the United Way. She was having some success, but if she added one sentence to her appeal, she more than doubled contribution. So what was the sentence? The sentence was I'm a student here too. In other words, I'm of you. I'm one of you. Right. I'm a blue devil or I'm a Spartan or I'm a sun devil or whatever it was. And under those circumstances, all the resistance to persuasion came down and she increased contributions by 250%. Right. So that's one person possible way in which these principles, and this one in particular, can have a big effect by changing a small feature of what it is that you present. In this case, one more breath, one more sentence. Right. And a big effect. I can't read that. How was the sound?

No, the sound is good. The sound is good, bubba. So it would be interesting. So you know, to take an extreme and example, if the people who, you know, if the Mormon people who are going around on bikes wearing coats and ties looking for support from the Mormon church, if they said, well, I live in Santa Cruz too, would that help them?

Yes. In fact, in the first Obama campaign for president, he was able to, according to a study, significantly increase the likelihood that he would win voters in three battleground states by allowing his supporters to call people from inside their community, not having campaign workers from outside their community do the work, but from inside their community. And to say, I am a member of X, whatever the community is like you, and the research shows that significantly increased the likelihood, not that those people would be persuaded to vote for a bomb, but they would be motivated to get out of their house, down to the polls and make that poll. Yeah.

In general, how has social media and the digital age changed your techniques of influence?

Hello? I'm sorry?

Oh no. I asked how has the digital age affected your techniques of influence?

Yes, this is really a good question because it turns out there are two answers and they seem to go in different directions. But you can reconcile. The first answer is if you look at the principles that work online, they're the same ones that work in person or over the phone. Human behavior hasn't changed the factors that drive people to Say yes, haven't changed. There was a study done of 6700 online commercial platforms and they look at 29 different factors that they manipulated in A B tests in these various programs to see which were the most productive of conversions, getting people to move from being a prospect into a customer. And what they found was that there were 29 of these features. Some were economic, like, do they provide free shipping? Some were technological, is there a search function? Some were psychological or persuasive. Anyway, do they have a call to action line at the end of the appeal? Right. The top six were the six universal ransom, Was there scarcity? Was there social proof? Was there authority? Was there liking, Was there reciprocation? Those kinds of things work the best now. It was even more specific because the research in interpersonal interactions outside of the Internet had showed that if you look at scarcity appeals, limited number scarcity appeals, we only have so many at this price with these features and this payment plan, something like that, that was more successful than limited time appeals, like, you can only get this in this week. Right. That's exactly what they found on the Internet as well. That same difference. So the principles are the same, they work on us in the same way. But here's the other side of it. What the Internet has done is to give one of the principals greater access to our decision making social proof. The idea that what a lot of other people around me are doing is a way I can use to decide what I should do in that situation. And what we have now on the Internet is the ability to access all kinds of people all over the world who we would never have access to previously. And take a look at their reactions, their ratings, their experiences with products, services, ideas that are offered to us on the Internet. And so social proof has now become the most frequently accessed of the principles in deciding how to apply.

Let's hypothetically say there's a podcaster and he wants to use social proof. How does that hot podcaster use social proof? I mean, what I'm thinking, like what mechanism could a podcaster use to say, hey, lots of people listen to this podcast you should listen to, because it's not like they can put a bumper sticker on their car or they can have an ipod, you know, white earbud. I mean, what do you do in this digital regard?

Yeah, so that's good question. But I certainly they can, they can tell the people who are on their podcast in this about their popularity and ask those people if it's the case that we have so many, maybe you could tell a friend or somebody who would appreciate knowing about this valuable information that seems so valuable that we've got all these people doing. Get some word of mouth working in your direction. Now, here's a flip side answer to your question. What if you're a new podcaster? What if you're somebody who doesn't have a big audience? What could you use to convince people that they should tell their friends about this great source of information?

Okay, I'm writing this down on my tablet. Go ahead, keep going.

Yeah, well, it's. Show them the trend to where you are. If you have a valuable piece of information or product or a service or an idea, it will have gotten some traction. It may not have yet gotten to popularity, the biggest market share or something like that, but you will have gotten a trend upward to it. That's what you report. And there's a benefit of reporting trends that allows us a different kind of social proof than we have ever had before. It is future social proof because there is a very human tendency in the psychology of perception to see a trend as likely to continue. We expect that if we've got at least three data points, we need at least three. If you've got three data points moving in a particular direction, we project the trajectory of that trend into the future. And my team was one of a group of individual researchers studying this problem, this, this process. And what we found was that giving people a trend to a minority number, let's say it's third, 30%. 30% of people, like our program, our podcast, or 30% of the people tune in, whatever it is. If we give them 30%, that's a statistic. If we give them a trend to 30%, they're significantly more likely to want to continue with that idea or product or service. Right. Because they expect it will soon be 40% and after that, 50%. So now you have future social proof working in your direction. If you can itemize a trend in the direction.

I'm gonna tell that podcaster to go find three points that are going up. So do you think great influencers and persuaders are born or made?

Are they born or made?

Yeah, like, you know, the influential, the infl. The person you know?

Yeah. I would have to say the answer is both. We all know people who are, Are. Are born persuaders. They know exactly what to say at exactly the right time. But that's not most of us. Right. Most of us have to learn how to do it. So this is why it's so great that persuasion is not just an art. We don't learn our artistic inspiration. We get it right. But we can learn how to be persuasive according to the science that shows us the specific steps we can take and can document the success of those steps.

Well, what, what skills would you say are the most important for influence and persuasion?

I'm sorry, you cut out what's important for what skills.

Skills are the most important for influence and persuasion.

So that's really an interesting question, and I'm going to give an unusual answer for the one I think is most important. Empathy. The ability to empathize with the circumstance and the mindset that the person you're trying to move in your direction is in at a curtain that allows you to frame your appeal in a way that is congruent with that mindset. Right. It's. It's that, it's that flexibility rather than having a certain favorite approach that you think is the best overall situation. That's just not true. There's no one favorite or best approach. The best approach is not to have a best approach. The way to do it is recognize. Put yourself in the shoes of the individual, your seeking to influence and recognize what would be the most like of all the principles of influence in that set of circumstances, which is the one that would be most successful there?

Would, Would you. Let's take a case like Steve Jobs or Elon Musk. I would say they're extremely persuasive and influential, but I have a hard time wrapping my mind around the thought that either of them are empathetic. Now maybe empathetic in my mind connotates kindness and human humanity, humanistic and all that kind of warm fuzzy stuff. Maybe empathy simply means can you think like the other person? It's not necessarily kumbaya and positivity. So would you say Elon Musk and Steve Jobs are empathetic?

Well, empathy doesn't necessarily involve positivity. It's recognizing what that person is likely to respond to. So one of the things, for example, that we found is that information about what stands to be lost is more powerful than information about what stands to be gained. This is what Daniel Kahneman learned in his prospect theory that won the Nobel Prize for him. Under conditions of risk and uncertainty, people are more susceptible to appeals that tell them what not to miss or forego or lose in a particular situation. So if you by empathy, recognize that that's the situation that person is in, that person wants to know. It's important to that person to know what to protect themselves against losing. Right. So that's how you would. It doesn't have to be positivity. It can be what. Watch out. You know, honestly.

So how. How would you, godfather of influence, persuade people who are vaccine resistant or hesitant or vaccination resistant or hesitant?

Yes. So there's a. A tendency in human behavior called react, the tendency to resist being pushed or controlled in any way, including through persuasive appeals. Right. And they tend to react against it. And I think we have that issue now with the people in the vaccine hesitancy community. One of the reasons they're resistant is they think people are pushing them there, and they just don't like that. Well, it turns out there was a review of 47 different studies that tried to find a way to reduce reactance in people when they were given a persuasive check. Communication. Right. And it was to add one sentence at the end of the communication, the persuasive appeal. It was, of course, it's completely up to you.

Really.

And that review of 47 studies of various kinds of requests, that question, or some variant of it, of course, it's your choice. Right. Significantly increased the willingness of people to go ahead and do it. We disarmed the armament of reactance that they were shooting back against us with. He said, no, no, it's completely. Oh, and down comes that wall. And now they're more persuasive.

So you're saying at an extreme, Tony Fauci or Joe Biden says, you know, goes into a pitch for getting vaccination, and then at the end says, of course this is up to you.

Yes. So I would say this is going to work, particularly in those populations that are resistant. Right. Right now. Because they don't like being pushed around. But in these studies, they found that because all of us to some degree, don't like being controlled. Right. By somebody external to us or directed or shunted or commanded or. Or driven in a particular area. This works for everybody. Now, the beauty of it is it's true. We just have to say so out loud, and people will say, oh, yeah, okay, so nobody is really pushing me here. I can decide. These people are stepping back from the position of being directed into a position of just being informative and allowing me to decide based on the information.

So if I told my son, I want your room to be clean, then said, of course it's up to you. You telling me that that's gonna work? Because I'm a little dubious about that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Great guy. See what happens.

I. I found that just simply turning Off Internet access is very persuasive. So one of the things that I love about your writing and your work, and I think you actually told me this in person once, is the optimal response when you do something and somebody thanks you. So what is the optimal response when someone is thanking you for doing something?

Yeah. So this, this involves the principle of reciprocation. And what we have to be careful of is failing to recognize its role in the moment. Immediately after someone says thank you to us for doing something that really was meaningful to them, let's say they say to us, wow, that was so helpful. You really assisted me here. That was above and beyond the call of duty. Thank you for that. And how often do we hear ourselves say, oh, don't think anything about it, it's no big deal, it's okay, would have done it for anybody. Right. By the rule of reciprocation that says people want to give back to those who have given to them first. Right. We have just, with that kind of statement, slapped the influence that we earned out the window with the back of our hand.

Right.

It's a big mistake to minimize the true appreciation that people feel for what we've done. So here's what I would recommend. Now if this person is somebody we don't know very well, just somebody that we've met and they want to thank us in this genuine way, what I would respond is I was glad to help. I know if the situation were ever reversed, you do the same for me. You do the same for me. You, you don't diminish, you don't minimize, you don't dismiss the favor, you put it on the map for the future. So that's why the language here is very important. We don't say, oh, I know if the situation had ever been reversed, you do the same for me. You would have done the same for me. You say, if the situation were to be reversed, I know you would do this. So if you say you would have, you put it in the past where it won't exist, it's gone. There is no such situation in the past. But if you say you would, people are ready to give time to you when you need something, just as you did for them. Now I'm going to say something a little different for a situation where you have a long standing friendship or relationship, either with a colleague or maybe a customer, something like a client. If you, if you say, of course I was glad to help, I'm going to ask you to add, it's what long term partners do for One another. Please don't forget the addendum for one another. Once again, you've just put it on the map. Something that is true. Right. And they're ready now, they're persuaded now to say yes when you need something above and beyond the call.

Okay, so here's my plan. Gonna go clean my son's room, he's gonna thank me and I'm gonna say, son. It's what members of a family do for one another. You think that's gonna work?

Yes. For one another.

I'm gonna try that, Bob. I'll keep you posted.

Ah, yeah, okay. I mean, it's worth trying, you know, let's see, let's see what happens.

And if that doesn't work, I'll cut off the Internet.

I hope he's not listening.

He's in class right now. We don't want to take up your whole morning here. But you know, I gotta tell you, I just love the book and I love the previous version. I love this version. I love every interview I've done with you. So our relationship with one another has been one of just the bright stars in my life. I have to tell you that Bob and I, I, I hope we can do more work together in the future. So you got any last closing things you want to communicate to.

Along the lines of what of your son? I have a colleague whose son turned 13 and he said to me, bob, from your perspective as understanding and reviewing and being immersed in the science of persuasion or influence, what advice could I give my son that would serve him well as he moves into adulthood? And, and here's what I say. Advise him when he goes into any new situation with people he doesn't know, To expect the best of them, to think the best of those people, because that will allow him to be generous with them. And there are three consequences of being generous, right? The first is that people, people will like him more. This is generous guy. Secondly, by the rule of reciprocation, they're going to give back generosity to him. And finally, by the rule of commitment and consistency, they will see the act of giving him genera resources or in a generous way, as a commitment to him, which will cause them to be consistent with that commitment into the future. So there's one thing, but it's all enabled, it seems to me, by beginning with a belief, an openness to the people in a situation, not a skeptical one, but one that sees them as in the best possible light. It allows for generosity and then the generosity has all these downstream consequences that is just great.

Bob. So I am the commencement speaker for the University of Santa Cruz Department of Engineering. And I'm gonna put that in my commencement address because that, you know.

Oh, really?

Yeah. Well, because one thing I learned from Steve Jobs is you gotta know guy, what to steal. Because there's a lot of stuff out there, but you, you have to, you have to know what to steal. I mean, that is a skill in and of itself. And Steve Jobs knew what to steal and I learned what to steal, and that's worth stealing.

I consider myself a teacher. And so anything you take from this is hardly a theft. It's given with great joy. Yeah. So, you know, I once heard somebody describe the. The best teachers are those people who make themselves progressively unnecessary, where the people in the, you know, they're to carry this themselves. They don't need the teacher anymore. The teacher has instilled whatever the seeds of these ideas, and then people can take them and allow them to thrive and grow.

I love that. Okay, I have one last question for you. The last question is semi, seriously, what is life like for a Bob Cialdini? And the way, I mean, this is so, you know, so you're obviously the godfather of influence and persuasion. So does this mean that when you check into United Airlines, you know, you always get upgraded to first class, that, you know, if, if you were going into an IHOP and there was a long line, unlike Adam Sandler, the hostess would sit you down because you just know, you know, the magic statement. So do you just like you just, just influencing and persuading everybody and, you know, life is just great for Bob.

You know, I, I'm sorry, I'm having a little trouble with this and I'm not quite sure I got, I got the question.

Okay, so the question is, as the godfather of influence and persuasion, what is life like? Are you able to persuade, you know, major Ds to seat you immediately? United Airlines to upgrade you is just life, you know, you just, you got life wired.

Yeah. So there, there are various things, but here's something I learned in researching the new book is what's the one thing that in communications with people in these online dating or, or quick lunch exposures to one another that makes people want to continue to interact with that person and it's similarities. So what I would do would be to ask some questions that allow me to point to a similarity between us and create a bond, especially if there are similarities that speak to unity. Right. So there was a study of negotiators that was done. And if the negotiators sent information back and forth before they began the negotiation. They were much more likely to have mutually successful negotiation, people saying yes to one another. And the best sort of information that they got was similarities of unity. Like, oh, you're a runner, I'm a runner. Right. Or you, you, you. You're. You have twins, I have twins. You have teenagers, I have teenage. Those kinds of things that people use to categorize themselves. If we can find a connection there, I get a better speed.

Wait, I'm taking notes here. One second. So you. You know, I think I got this story from you. And the story is that two Latin American countries were having a diplomatic crisis. They met for days, made no progress. And the head diplomat of one country said to the head diplomat of the other country, we have to finish our negotiations because I have to go home, because. Because I promised my wife I would take her to the opera. And then he goes on to say, I hate the opera. And the other head diplomat says, oh, your wife forces you to take your. Take her to the opera. I hate the opera, too. And my wife forces me to do that. And if I remember the story correctly, after they found out a common hate of opera, they began to communicate to solve the diplomatic crisis. So they did. I get that from you. That is a great story.

I hope it's true.

So, Bob, Bob, as ever, you are the man as you hold up your book for everybody to see. It's called influence. We're talking to Bob Cialdini. Do not, do not, not read this book. You must read this book if you want to succeed. And with that, Bob, I'll let you go. Thank you so much for being here, and good luck with this book. And of course, my social media is your social media. Anything I can do to help you with this book, it'd be my privilege and honor. And I know you would do the same for me. That's what people do for friends.

Bob, you nailed it.

All right, take care, Bob. Thank you. Okay, everybody. So that was a guest appearance by the Bob Cialdini. I think there are a lot of Bob Cialdini just raving fans out there. So I hope you enjoyed that little impromptu meeting. He is the man. You got any more questions here? I got a few more minutes. It's nine minutes to 11 California time, and I have. So I have nine minutes. If your questions you want to join my extended ohana, send a text message to 831-609-0628. Servers are standing by. But again, I must tell you that I can Only sign up people in the US And Canada. That's just the way that system works. Sorry about that. And so Jeff, we got any questions, any thoughts, any comments? What does Robert think about charisma as a tool of influencers? Just likability, if I may be so bold as to answer. I think what he would say is that yes, there are some people who are born with charisma, but influence and persuasion is a learned ability that some people may be just natural with it, but everybody can increase their ability to influence and persuade by using the techniques in his book. And there are now seven as opposed to six. And so, you know, if you want to be more influential and persuasive, just buy the freaking book. I mean, just trust me on this. And so yeah, that's. That would be, I think, his answer. So what else? Any other questions? Great question. Every if is a real influencer, just a person with some volume of people. I, I would say that, I would say that in the context and way that most people use the word influencer today, I. E. Social media, that a social media influencer is generally way overrated and that they don't have nearly the influence and persuasion that you would think. So I don't think you should make a very quick calculation that millions of followers equals powerful, persuasive persuader. And I can speak from personal experience. So, you know, I think if you added up all my followers, it's probably, I don't know, 6 or 7 million people. And I wish I could tell you, let's say it's 7 million. I wish I could tell you that when I said, okay, buy my book, that 10%, 700,000 people would go buy the book. I'm not sure it's even 1%. 70,000 people would buy the book. I mean, think about this. So I want you all to subscribe to my podcast because I have people like Bob Cialdini giving their wisdom every week. Every week, Wednesday, 6:30am you will learn how to be more remarkable. So, so in a world where influence in the social media sense truly works, I would tell you this. I tell this to 7 million people, being extremely pessimistic. Let's say 1% of the people listen, that would mean that 70,000 people would download that episode. Well, let me tell you, I'm not getting 70,000 downloads per episode. Now I'm going to find three points of data that show an upward trend to prove that it is a trend. I just learned that. But so I don't know. You know, maybe when Kim Kardashian says buy this lipstick. 10% of her followers go buy the lipstick. That would be huge. But I don't think that it's that easy. Like I. In tech, I would say the most influential person is probably Marquez, Brownlee and Ijustine. And it'd be interesting, you know, if I. Justine says, okay, go buy the MacBook Air with the M1 chip or Marquis. Brownlee says that I wonder how many people really go out and buy that. That would be very interest. Interesting. So, any more questions, Jeff? Send them down. Differences in persuasion for consumer versus B2B. Well, I would say that I think there are more similarities than differences. Now Obviously in a B2B situation, if you're the purchasing agent and you know you're picking enterprise software, it's not going to be because somebody said, hey, you're a 49er fan, I'm a 49er fan. Why don't you standardize on my enterprise software? It ain't gonna be that easy. But I think, you know, more or less the principles, at least getting the foot in the door, the seven principles of Bob Cialdini will work. So I would say assume that it's more, more, more relevant and more like consumer than some magic B2B thing. What else? How about a question? Who is, who is for you more persuaded? Jobs or Musk? That is a non trivial question. I would say I. It's because I know more about Jobs and I, you know, interacted with him. I've never even met Musk. I would say Jobs, I mean Jobs, he was magical when, when he did product demos, it was magic, it was this. I don't know why this metaphor is used in a positive sense, but his demos kind of suck the air out of a room. And that sounds negative, but what I'm trying to say is just the effect his demos had was just, it was visceral and you know, I don't know if Elon Musk can do a viscerally affecting demo. Certainly should not hit a car window with an ax to prove that or throw the rock at it or whatever they did to prove that the cybertruck window is smash proof and then it's smashed. So I would vote for Jobs. Now having said that, I think Musk is the closest thing there is to a Steve Jobs today. I would also make the case that Steve Jobs changed the world and dented the universe because of devices, I. E. Phones, pods, pads, you know, tablets, Apple retail. But Musk, because he has such a portfolio of interests including space travel, boring tunnels, Solar panels, cars, cyber currency. Musk may dent the universe more than Steve because musk is all over the map, so to speak, whereas Steve was really focused on digital devices. Okay, one last question. How do you draw the difference between manipulation and influence? That is a very good question. I think that, you know, I think that for influence to work in the long term and the most effective, that the outcome has to be as good for the influenced as the influencer. So it's similar between the difference. It's similar to the difference between evangelism and sales. Where I would say traditional sales is about you, yourself and I making quota, making bonus, making your salary, whereas evangelism is. It's also good for the other person. So when I evangelize you to use Canva, there is no doubt in my mind you will be a better communicator if you, if you use Canva to make your graphics. When I evangelized Macintosh, there was no doubt in my mind that it would make you more creative and productive. And when I tell you to subscribe to my podcast, there is no doubt in my mind that by listening to people like Bob Cialdini and Jane Goodall and Margaret Atwood and Arianna Huffington and Steve Wolfram and Steve Wozniak on my podcast, there is no doubt in my mind then my podcast will make you more remarkable. So in each of these three cases, remarkable people, Canva and Apple or Macintosh. As an evangelist for all three, I really think that it's not just about the benefits to me. And don't get me wrong, those three things would benefit me, but it is about the benefit to you. And I think that's the key to long term effective influence and persuasion. So with that, it is 11am and it's time to end this party. So remember you. Oh, by the way, by the way, you must understand this, this, this phenomenon we're here in, which is I am live on Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn and YouTube simultaneously. I don't have to do it four times. I do it once. And it goes to four places is because of Restre. So this live show every Wednesday is brought to you by Restream. Restream makes it possible for me to be in four places at once. Actually, they support 30 platforms. It's just that I only use four. And one of the beauties of Restream is that, wow, it's high definition and, and it takes the comments from all four platforms and puts them in one place. So in the old world, it used to be that, well, first of all, you give up, you. You would have to have multiple windows open to say, so what's happening on LinkedIn, what's happening on Facebook, what's happening on Twitter, what's happening on YouTube? But with Restream, all the comments come into one place, and I can't tell you how much better that is. And you're seeing a relatively highly produced use of restream because there is a producer and he's putting up the questions and he's putting up the tags and, you know, he's putting up all that stuff and bringing guests on. But that's because of the complexity of this show. But you can just use restream and just stream to multiple platform. I can't tell you how useful that is. And if anybody tells you no, you should customize your stream for each different platform because it's different markets, different people, different audits. Don't be a fool. You broadcast and blast to as many platforms as possible. And that's because restream makes it possible. So restream Remarkable people. Join my text program. Jeff will put up that you see how good he is. 831-609-0628 and be sure you listen to Bob Cialdini's second appearance on Remarkable People, bringing us up to speed with what's happened in the last year in Persuasion and Influence. And with that, have a great rest of your week.