Remarkable People- Special Live Interview with Dr. Dana Suskind

Foreign.

Hello. It's a guy, Kawasaki. And I am in Santa Cruz, California. I am joined by the Rema, the rest of the remarkable, remarkable team, Jeff C. And Peg Fitzpatrick. And we have a special, special guest, the author of the great book Parent a Nation. Her name is Dr. Dana Susskind. So what happened? Where's Dana?

She dropped off. I don't know what's going on, guys.

Dana is a professor of surgery at the University of Chicago, and she specializes in cochlear implants for children, kids, and babies. So she brings hearing to kids who can't hear. And being. I would say. I used to say I was half deaf. I would say I'm now 3/4 deaf. You know, we really got along because she has so much knowledge. I'm. I'm about to get a cochlear implant. That's going to happen in, I hope, July. And so, yeah, so I learned a lot from her. But this podcast is not about cochlear implants and hearing. It's about the impact of early childhood stimulation of language, which she figured out because, you know, once you enable a kid who's never heard to hear, it's not like the battle is over. And even kids who do hear, many of them are not getting enough verbal stimulation because. Because the American system seems to be that learning begins in kindergarten. But Dana makes the case that learning begins from the moment you're out of the womb. And she has an organization called 30 Million Words, which is based on an old study that kids in lower income, less Advantaged situations hear 30 million less words than kids in more fortunate situation, and that affects them for the rest of their life. So, Dana, I was just stalling and covering.

I don't know why this. Can you. Am I coming through clear? Because it doesn't look clear to me, but as long as it looks clear. That's awesome. Yeah. I heard the tail end about the origins of my research and. Yeah. So did you want me to respond? I'm sorry, guy.

Yeah, no, no. I mean, go ahead, tell us your story. Because, you know.

Yeah, no, you know, as you probably mentioned, I am a. Am I still there?

Yeah.

Still here.

Yep.

Okay, great. Because I'm not seeing anyone. Yeah, no. I'm a pediatric cochlear implant surgeon at the University of Chicago. And it's true that much of the origins of my research really came from seeing differences in outcomes of my own patients after implantation, with some of my patients learning how to talk and learn after surgery and others having developmentally progressing much slower and in trying to figure out why this was, I came across this research that you mentioned that showed a huge difference in the amount of language that children were exposed to. And that research showed this large gap of 30 million words. I want to really emphasize that that was, it's sort of a first sentence in a much larger body of research showing the importance of the first three years of life, the importance of parents and caregivers and the power of their language. You know, it's a much older study and there are many problems with it, but it was powerful enough to get me, a surgeon, out of the operating room to really work on allowing all parents to be, you know, their children's first and most important teacher and brain architect. So.

Aren'T you basically making the case that the American assumption that learning starts in kindergarten at 5 or 6 is just totally flawed?

Yeah, no, no, no, it absolutely is flawed. The science, the neuroscience really makes it clear that learning, as you said, doesn't start on the first day of school, first day of life. And in those first three years of life, some 85% of our physical brain is grown. Right. A million new neural connections happen every second. And all of that important brain growth which affects our, you know, your future learning and health and work trajectories really is based on the nurturing interaction that you get from your parent and caregiver. And that's why, you know, us not investing as much in the early years compared to K12 really impacts not just children, but sort of the whole educational trajectory of, you know, millions of children and why we need to focus more on the early years and parents and caregivers.

So Jeff and Peg, did you talk to your kids a lot when they were newborn?

Non stop. I chose to be a stay home mom. We had big discussions about it because we were both worked. And it was almost that my husband stayed home, but we decided I would stay home. And I did everything I could find at the time, which was not nearly as much information as moms are so lucky to have now. But that was like Dr. Spock. It was like the only book everybody had, Parent magazine. But yeah, I, I like to read and I read a ton to my kids and did, but everything changes and there's always more you can do. And I think that it did help with language skills with all my kids. And I did, they did do preschool as well. But everybody doesn't have that option to have a parent stay home, which I think is probably part of what Dr. Suskin is talking about. You know, some kids don't have that, you know, some families don't have the luxury. Some parents are both working multiple jobs. Yeah, there's a lot of different situations. Everybody's not so blessed that their mom can stay home and take, drive them to preschool and pick them up from preschool. And it's. There's a lot of different scenarios in America that we don't. Everybody doesn't know low income people, urban people. My mom taught in the inner city, so I do have a kind of a perspective. And I used to work in public housing, so I saw how families worked there. So I am. And it was eye opening for me as a suburb girl to see how different people, people's lives were. Maybe Dr. Susskind sees that being in Chicago, you probably have suburbs, urban and all different kinds of lifestyles.

Well, I think you bring up a really important point that there are many ways to allow children to have healthy brain development. And this book is really not about how parents should parent because parents know how they want to raise their children. And I've spent hundreds of hours talking to parents and ultimately they want the same thing, to give their children the best first possible start. But you make the point. We talk about parents having choice in this country, but as you said, many parents don't have a choice whether or not they want to stay home or they desire to go into the workforce. We make it really hard on all parents. And that's the universal thing that I was finding, is that all parents wanted the best for their kids. They were all struggling mightily because we have so little structures to support parents in the early years, and that's really what needs to change. Although your kids sound like they were very lucky, getting lots of reading and talking.

I think they were. But what do I know? I was their mom.

So I think, you know, I know.

All parents try to do their best, but you do the best based on what, what resources you have and what you think is the best thing. I would, I would be interested to see how screens like television and iPads and things play into the language now that so ingrained in everybody's houses. Did you study that at all?

Yeah, well, I know the research. I don't. That's not necessarily part of my work. But I can tell you, especially in those first three years of life, screens don't help children's brains grow and it doesn't help their vocabulary grow because the, you know, human development is based on this interaction, this necessary interaction between, you know, humans that respond. It's called responsive contingency. So the baby says Something and it. And the. The adult or caregiver responds. And as of now, technology, although Guy and his tech friends will probably change this. It's. The responsiveness is not really there. Even though Blue's Clues and those types of, you know, animations try to. It really isn't. So. So for now, screens in the early years, and I can tell you the science really doesn't at all help children's vocabulary grow. Unless it's video chat. Video chat with a grandparent is fine, but it's responsive.

So I have this question, and I know because Peg and I both do musicals and musical backgrounds, and we've talked about reading and words. And what I would be interested in is where does music and singing play into that too, because there was a lot of music. My kids are older now, 21 and 22. There's a lot of music in our background too, as long as well as reading. So was there any research on, like, music and other things other than just reading and talking?

Oh, absolutely. I mean, you know, I. I'm not steeped in it as much as I would hope, but. But overall, music and singing is. It's. It just. It's powerful. It's powerful. And so it sort of helps the language get in even easier.

So.

And there's a lot of actual research around the impact of music in children with hearing loss and cochlear implants. But suffice it to say, your. Your kids definitely lucked out. If they had reading, talking, and singing. My children, if they heard me sing, that's probably, you know, why they. They don't sing on. On key. So that's.

I didn't say it was good singing.

That's their.

And just FYI, you know, people listening. Dana has eight children, so we're not talking about Sheryl Sandberg with her, you know, personal assistant and nanny and a nanny who has a nanny. Dana is on the firing line. Right, Dana?

Well, first of all, I will. I. Cheryl is a very involved mother, as I've heard. But no, I mean, look, I have three biological children, five, what I call bonus children. It has always been busy, but I'm. Look, I am the recipient of much support and help around me as well. I think we have to dispel this myth that any of us do it alone because then it sends this false idea that is a problem in this country that you parent alone without any support. And I. I'm very lucky that I had amazing people, grandparents, you know, I had, you know, a nanny. I'm a surgeon, but I But I think all families need and deserve support.

I don't care how much support you had. Eight children is eight children.

You don't want to see the college tuition bills. That's what you don't want to see.

Oh, man, you got to do like 20 operations a day, right? So, you know, that kind of brings us speaking about infrastructure and support to your idea for Parent Nation. So tell us about the concept of Parent Nation.

Yeah.

So what is a parent Nation? It's really just an ideal. An ideal that says, you know, we, we have a society that truly values the labor and love of parents and caregivers for building the next generation. And that it's aligned with the neuroscience because I think the brain science can really give us a pathway forward. Because neuroscience says, look, you start supporting children and families when learning begins, not on the first day of school, but the first day of life. And that we know that none of us parent alone and that parents need support in providing, giving them time and resources so they can talk, read and sing with their children and provide a calm, nurturing environment. So really, it's allowing us to understand what children need is what parents need. And it's what society needs to be doing to better support parents. Because Covid made it quite clear we have sidelined parents and parents are struggling because of it.

So if I want to be part of Parent Nation, what's my action item?

All right. Oh, Guy, you should have never said that to me. You are in. No, look, we all, the whole point of a Parent Nation is that we all have a role to play. Even, you know, people without biologic children. Anybody who loves and cares for a child or wants to have doctors, teachers and bus drivers in the future who are well educated has a role to play. But what can you do right now if you're a parent? Before I tell you what I'd love you to do, I want you to give yourself grace. Right? Parenting in this moment in time, at any moment, is hard. Give yourself grace. There is something called good enough parenting. But then I want you to start reframing what it is to be a parent and caregiver in this country. You are building the future generations. You are the guardian of our country's future. And you, you deserve and should demand support. Start talking to other people. Start raising this issue and conversation at your workplaces, at your community centers, your faith based places. Go to parentnation.org where we have lots of free downloadable resources that you can really use to figure out what you want to do in your own communities to make it more family friendly. Talk to your employers and start, let's start making it happen. Because if it's not, I always say, if, if, if not now, when? So we need to start, start making our country aligned with its values.

For sure.

So I know you guys talked about this in the podcast a little bit. And by the way, you can find the podcast@remarkablepeople.com for all of you watching and want to check out this episode. But what about us who feel like maybe we missed the boat? I know Guy was asking this a lot of the podcast, like, hey, I've got older kids. What do we do when our kids are older? Did we miss the boat? Or our kids screwed up or we can't redeem them anymore? How do we handle older children?

I'm so glad my kids don't listen to my podcast.

No, I mean, look, I always say, especially after my first book, 30 Million Words, which really looked at the importance of the first three years of life and language and talking and interacting, how it could build your child's brain. I heard that question a lot. I really want to emphasize that this is not about. It's ever too late. It is never too late. Let's be clear. The brain and its neuroplasticity or its ability to reconnect itself happens at multiple times. Actually, believe it or not, adolescence is another sense time period. But even at my, you know, age, you know, hopefully there, there's still, you know, brain development happening. With that being said, it's just. Well, I don't know, Guy, you, you don't, don't, don't, don't chime in. I know what you're thinking, but. But the whole point is, is that it's just cheaper. It's. It's easy. Earlier is easier. It's cheaper. It's. We get a larger return on investment. And the, the whole point of investing now is that your children, right, and their development, which obviously we want to give all our kids the best first start. But we're helping with the gender equity. I mean, with the fact that we have no infrastructure in our country for the early years. That's the whole basis of so many women being forced to leave the workforce because you can't have an impossible calculus. Take, you know, leave my kids home alone and, you know, working. I mean, no, nobody can really make that choice, right? It's about civil rights. It's about all the things we hold dear, really. Take. It's critical that we start early. But going back to your question of your teenagers and your Older kids, it is never too late. And listening and being there. Those same three T's that are key in the early years for building your child's brain can be used to connect with your children. Um.

Well, I can guarantee you I am going to be a better grandparent than.

Everyone's a better grandparent. Grandparenting is, well, the best.

And Dana is a huge factor in that.

Yeah.

Prediction.

Oh, wait. But I want to bring up another.

New York Times bestseller. So congratulations on that.

Thank you. I want to thank Guy Kawasaki because I'm sure his screaming from the rooftops helped increase the interest. But I want to answer that question of grandchildren. Of course. I'm a surgeon. I'm going to bring it always back to Parent Nation. In this country, we have a fertility crisis going on and people can say, well, why do we need more kids? We need enough kids to maintain our population. Because if we don't. Right. We will not have, you know, have the employees for the future. Right. Our workforce will shrink, our economy will shrink. We'll have nobody putting money into Social Security so that we can someday retire. So right now, because of the lack of family friendly policies, it's one important factor our fertility rate is. You need 2.1 children per person to be able to maintain our level of our population. I'm not even talking about growing it, just maintaining it. We've dropped down to 1.6. So one more reason. We need a parent nation. If Guy Kawasaki wants grandchildren, if any of us want grandchildren, we need. This is a cross generational issue. I mean, I'm already finished having children, but I'm thinking my kids and, you know, your kids and guys as kids, Dana has.

Dana and John have certainly done their part to ensure that we have enough children. That's. That's for sure. So. But, you know, it is a very.

Big societal issue though, what Dana is saying. People don't realize what the impact is when we don't have enough kids. And then how do we get those resources? Dana is this. Politicians have to, like, how are we. I'm sure you have resources on parent nation right.org but how do we do that? How do we get more resources directed that way?

Yeah, let me tell you, that's exactly the basis of Parent Nation. It's not just a pathway forward and the fact that all parts of society play a role. It's the fact. I've come to realize that why haven't we moved forward? It's because we, parents, caregivers, people who care about children don't have a First of all, children don't vote. And parents, we haven't. Parents and caregivers haven't spoken with a collective voice to push forward politicians and employers to become more family friendly. So you can say, look, do we need to convince politicians more. They know, right? They know these issues. They're parents themselves. But the issue is that unlike, you know, let me tell you a bright spot when I was trying to think about how do we get people to speak with one voice. I tell the story of back 50 plus years ago, the poorest, most sidelined group of individuals wasn't children under five. Right? Now, children under five in this country are the poorest, which is an obscenity, right? Children under five are the poorest in our country and therefore they're parents. But back then it was the elderly. And through speaking through with a unified voice through the AARP and the gray lobby, now no other age group is better taken care of. And justifiably, they have helped create this nation. I think parents and caregivers can be the same for one another. They can be allies and they can speak with a unified voice so that politicians, elected officials realize, you know what, I better listen to them because they are speaking with a unified voice.

And how did AARP pull it off? Was there a Steve Jobs of AARP who did it? Like, how did that happen? Do you know?

Yeah, no, yes, absolutely. I am an AARP expert now. I love them. So there was a woman, Ethel, Ethel Percy Andress, a little old teacher who is literally, I think she must have been her 60s or 70s when she started it. She was actually a UChicago grad, a teacher. And in her retirement, of course, in her retirement, she started working, you know, to help elderly teachers. And there's a story that she came about a teacher, a very esteemed teacher who was living in a chicken coop because back then the teachers had no retirement. They were crippled by health care costs. And she said, how could this be? And so she initially started a group called the National Associations for Retired Teachers that helped them to get health insurance because nobody wanted to insure them at that time. And then when she did that, and what was interesting is it started as a marketplace and I can tell you more about it on our next podcast. But then she then more people wanted it, not just retired teachers, all elderly wanted it. And that became the American association of Retired Persons, or the aarp. And so slowly it grew and grew, and now it is 38 million strong. There's no other lobbying force that is consumer facing that has so Many dollars. Most of it is like health care, pharmaceuticals, you know, big tech. They are the only consumer facing organization that ensures that the health and well being of the elderly is taken care of. That's why you haven't seen Medicare security being rolled back, because they speak with a unified voice. Well, up until now, parents and caregivers have been convinced that they, that having a kid is like having a puppy. Right. It's all on you. Without saying, wow, you're building the next generation. Well, it needs to change if we're going to have children in the future, if we're going to have a well trained, well educated workforce. And I've come to realize this is probably one of the only ways that it can happen unless we get a magic wand. Because certainly when you look at government today, it doesn't. Employers seem to be moving in the right direction because they're hurting. But we got to get policymakers too on board.

So 50 years from now we're going to be saying, Dana Sutskind was this surgeon at the University of Chicago and she started Parent Nation. And now, you know, it's, it's got 80 million members. And you're right. Is that the plan?

No, it's not. It's. It's definitely not me, but it's. My hope is to. Because there are so many incredible groups working out there today trying to do this. It's about bringing those voices together. If I can be a small part, and I am just one of a, an amazing team working on this Parent Nation initiative and this work that we're doing. But no, I, you know what? It would be a white life well lived if I could see, if, if I could just see that the children of this country and their parents were supported. I don't. That's all, that's all I want to see. So.

Well, I think you should be that. Okay. Anyway.

It'S because I'm your cochlear implant God surgeon. That's why you're saying it.

Well, no, arguably that would detract from you being my cochlear implant concierge. So.

I will always be your cochlear implant concierge.

So, anything else? Jeff and Peg. So now we got our marching orders. Talk to your kids and grandkids a lot as soon as they're born. If you're gonna, if you can't be there, you gotta use something interactive like zoom. Don't just turn on Baby Einstein. And we should unit unite and start advocating for parents and children and childcare as opposed to believe that we're all out there alone, hanging off, you know, by a thread. So is that the gist of it? Dana?

Oh, my gosh. I couldn't have said it better. You're a wonderful guy.

But, Dino, by the way, how's it feel to be a New York Times bestseller? Like, are you. Are your kids, like, picking up all their clothes? They're doing all the dishes. They're just so. Just, like, revering your every word and every step.

No, definitely not. My only hope that this is a signal that maybe a book that's called Parent Nation, that is not about how parents can do better, but how society can do better for parents is getting a little attention. That, for me, is the greatest gift. Like those other things. It's great. I'm sure my boss will be happy. But, gosh, if we could get people to actually take this area seriously and not just say, oh, it's about little kids, which drives me nuts, but it's about the future of our country. That's the greatest gift. So, no, my kids are not picking up their clothes. Neither is my husband, but that's another.

Husbands take longer to train than kids. Let's be honest.

Maybe your husband's parents didn't talk to him enough.

I think they probably did. But listen, although my son went off to college and started picking up his, his room, I was like, wow.

No.

Yes. Yes. Amazing.

I would die of shock if that happened.

Okay. Anything else different, I'll hold up the book. This is what the book looks like. So go to Amazon or your local bookstore and join the Parent Nation. Do it for the sake of America or the world, really. Right.

Thank you. It's great to meet you all. Great to see you, guy. You are amazing.

Hey. Hey. So, Dana, so my hearing degraded again. So this Wednesday, I got another shot. So I got shot number three. And I swear, Dana, two or three hours after I got the shot, my hearing returned. I am like, I'm like a steroid junkie now. So I hope it at some point just levels and stays that way.

But I wonder if you should ask them about it. I mean, the fact that you're responding so much. Is there, I don't know this answer. Is there something that can work longer term? Like, it must be an inflammatory response with you. Like, should you see an autoimmune doctor? I know this is not part of the.

I don't know.

That's probably caused by surfing is what it is. They probably make you stand.

No, I, I, I, I think it's listening to too many podcasts. I gotta stop. I gotta edit less, maybe.

No, that was terrible.

Well, everybody have a great. Oh, it's Mother's Day weekend, is it not?

Better take care of that.

That's right.

Absolutely. Look, mothers don't need only chocolate and flowers, although those are good. We need a parent nation to better support us in this world.

Amen. Amen. All right. Thank you, Dana, for what you've done for me and all those kids you operated on. And now for every parent and therefore, every child. So, anything else? All the best to you.

Bye, everybody.