The Lazy Environmentalist | Josh Dorfman | Talks at Google

Hello. Good afternoon, everyone. On behalf of Google's corporate environmental programs and the authors at Google Team, I have the pleasure of introducing Josh Dorfman. He is the author of the Lazy Environmentalist, your guide to easy, stylish and green living. An environmental entrepreneur, Josh is the founder of Vivavi, an eco friendly furniture and furnishings retailer, and he's the host of the daily Sirius satellite radio show, also called the Lazy Environmentalist of Josh's Book. Chris Payne, the writer and director of who Killed the Electric Car? Said, it's everything you wanted to know about greener living, but we're afraid to spend the rest of your life researching. Please join me in welcoming Josh Dorfman. Thank you. Thank you. Well, I'm really, really thrilled to be here. I haven't been to the Google campus before and was just reading about the transportation or the traffic monitoring unit that monitors traffic for the buses or whatever. And I thought it was really pretty amazing that a company actually has a traffic monitoring unit itself. So I was very excited to come to a place that's so much about innovation, as we all know. So what I'd like to do is tell you a little bit today, of course, about the book, but about what I see happening with the environment, with the movement. What's different today than perhaps in years past and why this is such an exciting time and how I got into it and the approach that we take with the Lazy environmentalist. So as many of you probably know, because so much of this is happening in and around the San Francisco area, I mean, I really see like a new environmental movement taking hold. And what makes it new in my mind is that separate from what's come before, I mean, it's a movement that really focuses on solutions and really recognizing, okay, how do we live today and how are we going to create environmental solutions that are going to be. They're not just going to solve the challenges that we face, the environmental challenges that we face because. But they're going to solve them in ways that are realistic and may actually quite possibly be implemented. So what do I mean by that? Well, an environmentalist might say, we all might agree, look, you're driving your car, that's a bad thing. You shouldn't drive, right? I mean, it's like all these emissions and we need to give up our cars if we're going to solve global warming. And obviously if we did that and we either biked to work or commuted or whatever, that would go a long way. But the reality is that we all have, as Americans, most of us have A love affair with our cars. So the dialogue that I see taking place and what we do at the the Laser environmentalist is to say, look, yes, you're in your suv. And yes, it's quite possibly we know if you're driving an SUV in this day and age, I mean, some people would say if you're driving an suv, you're going to hell, right? Or certainly like the environmental movement might come present it in that way. And that may or may not be true, but the reality is that if you want to get someone out of their suv, that's not necessarily going to be the most effective approach. So where I see the solution dialogue taking place in a more practical, realistic way, say, hey, did you know that, yes, you like your suv? Maybe you want to take your kids to school or soccer practice and you think they're going to be safer in that car. Maybe it just feels good. Maybe you think you're going to like the commercial, get off into the countryside somewhere in the wilderness because you have the car, whatever it is, fine. But did you know that there are some really cool hybrid SUVs that actually get a lot better mileage? And some of them, because they are hybrids and actually have more horsepower, so you might get a more powerful car, an suv, the same thing you have right now, but it's also going to get better fuel mileage. And that might be a choice that more people might be willing to make. So I started seeing this happen in a pretty significant way about three years ago and the year before that to tell you how I got involved in this. So I started this company called Vavavi. And the idea behind Vavavi was to bring together, marry like great design aesthetic with eco friendly materials, with eco friendly, friendly manufacturing processes and make it so overwhelmingly compelling for people to make eco friendly choices because the eco friendly choices are going to be the best choices. And so Vivavi. We really focus on contemporary furniture and furnishings and often the feedback people get when they come to our showroom or they see us at shows, they'll say, all right, this is cool, but where's the eco stuff? Because this just looks like the normal stuff. And that's what I think there's this new sense of this is the direction that we need to go in if we want to encourage people to move down this path with us. So I started this company in late 2003 and I started in Washington D.C. i'd been in a PhD program actually for about a semester and just had decided that for me, theory wasn't going to be the way I wanted to approach this topic. And I really wanted to make making choices much more easy and accessible for people. So I focused on starting a retail company to do just that. So I started the company in D.C. and to tell you how the lazy environmentalist came about and kind of where I'm coming From, in late 2004, I decided that we really need to move the company to New York because. Because we were going down a design path and that's where some of the best design was taking place, particularly sustainable design. And a lot of it was happening in Brooklyn. So at the time when we launched the company in dc, I had one employee working with me and she wasn't making the move with me up to New York, but she'd been my office manager and my admin and was helping me move to New York. And I was actually. She had packed me up and I was selling her my car, which she was going to take back to D.C. and that would be the end of our relationship. And it's about 10:30 at night this last day. We're on the New Jersey turnpike. It's been a really long day, getting packed up, moving the company, and we're both a little irritated, a little tired, and she's in the passenger seat and she's like hyperventilating. And it's like, I'm like, are you alright? And she says, listen, Josh, I need to ask you something. I have to get this off my chest. I couldn't ask you when you were my boss, but you're not my boss anymore, and I really need to, you know, I really need to ask you something. So, you know, I typically thought I knew it. She's always been attracted to me. I secretly suspected this from the beginning. And my mind flashes forward to this new apartment I'm going to. Where's the roommate going to be? What are the logistics? How's this night going to work out, Right? All within like a nanosecond, right? So. So I'm like, yeah, you know, it's cool. You can ask me anything you want. And she's like, all right, well, I don't want you to take it the wrong way. No, no, no, it's cool. You can ask me anything you want. It's all good. So she says, all right. Are you really an environmentalist? And so immediately it became very clear that this night was not going to go how I had thought it was going to go. And she just started laying into me and she's like, you know, it's like you're always in the shower. It's a pain for you to recycle. You were going to take your bed to the homeless shelter. You were going to take your bed. You were going to throw out your bed. I took it to the homeless shelter. You don't act like an environmentalist, you don't talk like an environmentalist. What's your deal? And I really knew where she was coming from. So two days later I wrote a blog entry on our website called the Lazy Environmentalist. And I wrote, look, I'm going to be really honest here. I do care about the environment, I really do. But I also take long showers. And the reason why I take long showers is because I do my best thinking in the shower. So as much as I care, I'm probably not going to take shorter showers just because I know I should conserve water and conserve energy. But what I'd really love is for someone to invent a shower where the same 5 gallons of water gets filtered through. So I'm not using too much water. And let's run a solar panel out the window to heat it. And I will buy it and I will use it, but I'm probably not going to change my behavior. I mean, if I'm really honest with myself as much as I'm selling this eco friendly product, right? And when I make a lot of money, I want an Audi TT convertible. That's the car I want. I'd love for it to be a hybrid because I would get it, but that's the car I want. And we can either continue on just kind of talking about what we should do, and I think many of us would when we can acknowledge to ourselves that even while we know what we should do, very often we, we're not doing what we should do. We're just kind of living our lives and we're doing it because we're busy sometimes, yeah, we're a little bit lazy, but we've got a lot going on and the environment is important to us. But it's not always like the primary driver of our lives. So I wrote this blog entry and a couple of months later a producer for a radio station called me, an Internet radio station said, what's your story? What's this all about? I told him what I was doing. He said, well, do you want to be a guest on the show? I said, sure. We said, do you want to have your own show? So. Which probably should have made me be a little more suspect or skeptical about their network, but I was like, yeah, I'd love to have My own show. He said, well, what would you talk about? I said, well, I would talk about all the designers, the entrepreneurs, the people who are actually making green living really possible today in a way that's going to fit our lives. And he said, great, let's do it. So I tried it for about three months and I was actually Internet talk radio. So I was broadcasting out of my apartment in Brooklyn, and I. So Brooklyn's a fairly noisy place, so the quietest place in my apartment was my closet. So every Monday at 4pm Eastern Standard Time, broadcasting to the world from my closet in Brooklyn. And the first guest we had on the show that first day was this guy, Graham Hill, who many of you may know this website, treehugger.com, which covers a lot of. I mean, it's a little tongue in cheek, but they really cover, like, green with a modern aesthetic. That's a lot of what's behind that idea. So he was on the first show with me, and the quietest place he could find was his bathtub. So here we are, like, broadcasting to the world, right? This new green mandate and all this change, innovation, and that's how we got started. And a few months later, I eventually wound up on Sirius Satellite Radio, where I do the show now every day. And about a year and a half ago, I got the idea to write the book. And again, so the book, like the radio show, is this conversation about what's really going on out there. What is so innovative that, let's say you could care less about the environment. What is so innovative that you're just going to be excited about it? And so, you know, just so totally cool for whether it's technology or style or whatever, an idea that it's going to be something that you're going to want to know about. So one of the things I write about and I talk about quite a bit is the some of the things that are going on with toilets. And I know it's just because there's so much innovation in this industry, and I know it's a little weird, but I want to tell you about one toilet in particular that I write about in this book, because it also kind of. There's a number of interesting things behind the story. This toilet system came to market in the fall, just this past year. It's called the Aquis Toilet System. And the website, if you want to see it, is watersavertech.com and of course, you can read about in my book. So what this is is that when you're brushing your teeth or you're washing your face and the water's going down the drain. The. There's a container now that you can put in your vanity or behind the wall or under the floor, depending what you want to do. It's pretty easy to retrofit into your vanity. It captures that water, filters out the particles, the dirty particles, captures the water. Then there's a little tube that runs to your toilet. So now when you flush your regular toilet with this system, you're actually using gray water from your sink as opposed to using clean, drinkable, potable water to flush your toilet. So, well, what's the big deal? Well, a little system like this, for an average couple sharing a bathroom, would save about 5 to 7,000 gallons of water per year, right? It costs about $250. It saves you about 60 to $70 per year on your utility bill, some of your water taxes. So there's actually a payback. And now the reason why, when I think about lazy environmentalism, why I like this product so much, is because now when you're using it, you're just doing the same thing you would do anyway, right? You're just flushing that. You're just flushing the toilet. And. And now you're a hero of the planet, and you don't have to go out of your way to do something that's going to have a major impact. And it's that kind of thinking that seems to me really fits again, where we are as a society and the decisions and the choices we're really willing to make in our lives. I mean, it's these kinds of things. It's like, well, why wouldn't you do that? And the other thing that I like about this company is that it's this guy, Mark Sanders, who started in Louisville, Kentucky. And I only bring that up to say that the solutions are coming from everywhere. Now, this is really not. I mean, of course, California, and particularly San Francisco with the radio show. Very often our guests on the show happen to have their companies based in this area, and we do a lot in New York, where we're broadcasting from, but it's really happening in such a pervasive way throughout the country, which is one of the things that I also find really exciting. And to give you an idea also of kind of how I see this manifesting, one of the things that I write about in the book and I talk about quite a bit is kind of the idea of green becoming a little more inconspicuous. Green just being the qualities of green being integrated into the products that we use every day. And I think that this is part of the phase where we are, and one of the areas where I think you can kind of see it manifesting, and it's pretty interesting to think about is with Toyota and the Toyota Prius, for example, which is a very conspicuous example of a green product. And some people like that design. For others, they don't really care for it, but it's conspicuous. And the fact that it's so conspicuous has another added value. When you're driving a Toyota, everybody knows you're a great person, right? Everybody knows that you really care and you're conscious and you go through the tolls and they high five you and everyone's on. And that's a great thing. And why not? Why not have green products that have that reinforcement mechanism and say, wow, I should do more of this, because the more I do it, the more I get this positive feedback. But then Toyota comes along and last year introduces the Toyota Camry hybrid. Now, what's particularly interesting about this to me is that the Camry is already the best selling, most popular car in the United States. So now here's a different choice. So now you can say to folks, look, this is the car you want anyway, right? You don't have to change your design aesthetic, what you prefer, but here's a hybrid version that's going to get about 40 miles per gallon, and it's the exact same car you want anyway. And that's the shift that's starting to take place. And that's one of the things that I think makes it particularly exciting. Even the clothing that I'm wearing today. This is from a company called nau. Has anyone heard of NAU Nautical? It's a pretty new company. It launched just this past February. They're based in Portland, Oregon. And like this little jacket that I'm wearing, this is made from 100% recycled polyester. It's actually a cycling jacket. It's waterproof and windproof. And the idea that now came out with they basically brought together this rock star team. Folks from like Patagonia and Adidas and Nike and elsewhere in the outdoor industry came together and. And for two years before they launched, they said, let's come up with a company that's going to offer performance, highest quality performance, outdoor wear, outdoor gear, essentially, that can compete with anybody else on the performance criteria. Let's also make it fashionable, a little more stylish, so that you're actually unlike a lot of outdoor gear. It's actually going to look kind of cool. And you Might be able to wear it to work instead of just when you're out bouldering or cycling or whatever. And let's use the most sustainable materials that we can find and let's just bring these three things together and let's do it. And the reason why I mention this company is because I think they're doing a pretty good job of it with their first lines. I've seen some of their fall lines, which are amazing. And the other thing about it is in that industry, let's say you're out hiking or climbing or bouldering, whatever, and suddenly someone's looking particularly cool, like, oh man, that guy's got some nice clothes on and he just came down the mountain. It stands out. And I like the fact that it stands out. So if you go over to that person, say, what are you wearing? What is that? And say, oh, it's now, oh, well, that's like the coolest jacket or shirt, or organic cotton pants or whatever. Or pants, right? And you're like, yeah, it's organic cotton, it's eco friendly. And now you're communicating the message in a way that says, wow, this is great gear. It looks cool and it's better for the environment. And it's starting to make the choices really appealing. So often what we're talking about on the radio show or what you'll find in the book are these kinds of choices that are really saying this can just plug into your lifestyle. It can fit your lifestyle. In many cases, it can improve your lifestyle. Some things we talk about are really easy to do. Like for example, in over 35 states right now, there are 600 power utilities that actually offer green energy options to homeowners, to renters. So what does that mean? Well, in New York, I get my power through Con Edison. So I go onto their website. I actually check a box, just a little box on the website that says 100% wind energy. And now that means for the power I'm using in my home, when I turn on my lights, when I watch tv, I don't have solar panels on my roof, I don't have a wind turbine on my building, my apartment building. And for, let's say, use 300 kilowatt hours of wind of energy, the power utility is now buying 300 kilowatt hours of wind as opposed to fossil fuels on my behalf. It's a one to one ratio. Whatever I use in my home, they're making that Choice. There are 600 power utilities that offer this. Some of them are, of course, here in California. And if you go to epa.gov greenpower you'll find those choices. And I pay maybe five or six dollars more per month for that choice. But I haven't spent thousands of dollars on equipment or made a major investment to do something so phenomenal. And this is where the industry is right now or where a number of industries are. So it really enables us to plug into this across our lifestyle in so many different ways. So while I think mostly about how do we get people to do to make these choices without having to change much about their life, you can still sit on your couch, you can still watch TV. The TV's now powered by wind. You could actually get a really energy efficient TV from a company from Sharp, Their Aquos line of flat panel TVs. It's the most energy efficient in the market, also has some of the best picture clarity. It's also made in a factory that runs on one third solar power. And that's important because flat panel TVs actually use more energy than just about anything else in our home from an appliance point of view, except probably the refrigerator. So these kinds of choices plug into our couch potato lifestyle. And we're selling furniture so you can have something nice to sit on while you're doing it. So I think about those choices, but I also think about the choices. What's going to get us to shift our behavior a little bit? How do we do that? Because as much as I'm talking about lazy environmentalism, things that are going to work for us that just fit how we want to live, and I feel like as a society this is mostly what we're willing to do right now. Realistically, if we're again very honest with ourselves, how do we start to shift behavior? And one of the things that I look at and I know it's happening here on the Google campus is like the SIG water bottles, right? Isn't that a program that's been enacted? People have. You guys have sig your reusable water bottle. See some nods, right? So 30 million plastic bottles, water bottles go to the landfill every day in the United States. I mean it's like a staggering number. 60. So there have been water bottles or reusable water bottles in the past. That's not a new concept. What SIG, this Swiss company has done is they've created for 2007, 144 different styles and they have designers who are submitting designs to design how these look from all around the world and they look cool. So getting people to say, hey, why don't you bring your own water? Instead of having the convenience of going to the local bodega or the convenience store where there's water bottles, you know, everywhere. Here's a company that says, well, if we're going to shift behavior, it's not just like offering a water bottle. We have to offer, like, the coolest reusable water bottle we can find. And they're catching on. And students and young kids are like, calling this company. I know, because we had them on the show about a week and a half ago. And the president of SIG USA was saying, we've got clubs forming in schools around the country, you know, that want the cig bottles. The kids want these bottles because they like the style, they like the design. Design. So that kind of thinking seems pretty important to me. And I think about it, too, in terms of, you know, how are we going to get ourselves out of cars? Well, it's kind of, you know, this doesn't apply to everybody, but I. Or every kind of locale. But like the Vespa motor scooter, you know, Vespas still look cool. There's a design heritage there. This is, you know, an Italian company, so you've got Italian design, and they get about 70 miles per gallon, which is better than any hybrid car on the road right now, and they cost a whole lot less. And I think you can still look reasonably cool on a Vespa. Right. And so that, to me, seems like the kind of solution, the kind of thinking that also can begin to get us going in a direction where we might be willing to actually shift our behavior a little bit, to make some different kinds of choices. I'm going to take questions in just a minute. Just wrapping up here. I've got a couple more really important things to say, but anyway, I can go on and give examples, but this is what's in the book. And the book is about 20 some odd chapters covering fashion, to furniture, to alternative energy, to everything for every room of your home, to education, the outdoor industry. So. And really highlighting the innovation, but just, you know, kind of to wrap up the critique that comes back or the question that comes back to me often is, you know, Josh, are you just saying that we can shop our way to sustainability? I mean, is this just an excuse to keep to go on consuming? Hasn't consumption gotten us into the problem that we're in right now? And, you know, and I empathize with that point of view a lot, because the only reason I actually started doing what I was doing, because I was feeling particularly frustrated for a while with our consumption and production. But when I think about it now, on the one hand, I think, well, what else is there aside from what we produce and how we produce it, to what we consume and how we consume it? What else is there that causes the environmental challenges that we face, be it climate change or pollution or, you know, you could list a number of them. I don't think there is anything else that causes those problems. So I'm not sure that we can shop our way to a sustainable planet. But this sure is a really important area to focus on, and especially because so many of these solutions are here right now. And the other thing that I would say, and the reason why I focus on particularly lazy environmentalism, is because I really believe the choices have to. Environmental choices for how we live in 2007, although this is shifting, have to be like zero friction for the great majority of people to make these choices. The eco friendly product pretty much needs to be at the same store we go to anyway. Very few of us are willing to go out of our way to make these kinds of choices. And if we're looking for something that's design driven, it has to be design driven. If we're looking for something that's going to be, you know, save us money, it has to save you money. And some green products definitely do. But there has to be, in my mind, zero friction for us to really start to gravitate toward these choices without political leadership that's going to come along and say, all right, you know what, these challenges are really, really significant. And guess what, guys, we're all going to have to be a little bit inconvenienced in our lifestyles. And we all are going to be together, but there's no exceptions. We're all in it together. And in it together we will start to take steps to really solve what we face. But without that political leadership, creating the political will that will actually go along with that. And we'll say, okay, I agree with that. We do have to kind of, you know, tighten our belts here a little bit or be a little bit inconvenienced in our society. I really believe that the way to make the most inroads is to just feed it to people in a way that it's very easy for us to embrace and accept and also, again, use the same exact levers that Madison Avenue uses and the most sophisticated marketers and branders use to really market solutions that are very substantive. And so the solutions in the book and some of the things that I'VE just mentioned these are substantive choices that we can all make. And that's again, what the book is about and that's what lazy environmentalism is about. So, yeah, that's it. And I again, just appreciate the opportunity to be here and share the topic with you. So thank you. So we'll open up for questions now. If anyone wants to, to start right over there, there's a mic. Is this on on? Yeah, thanks very much. This is a great talk. I was curious about. You talked about the Con Edison. Check the box and get your power from wind on that topic. So how does one know that that wasn't just wind energy that would have gone into the grid anyway? And all you're doing by checking the boxes and just paying Con Edison five bucks more, or is it genuine, an extra whatever worth of energy going into the grid? Yeah, it's a great question. And the energy, this whole energy debate, it's complicated. And I think that's of course, why the questions come up. Certainly some states, like New York and I believe California have mandated that the power utilities buy a certain amount of renewable energy. So in some instances, what you're doing is you're actually buying what's already been mandated. So you might make the argument that it's coming into the grid anyway. It does seem to me that if this were, if you're talking about companies like Con Edison, I mean, of that scale and it were fraudulent, I think that that would come out. I mean, I don't know what the particular guarantee is to say that if I'm checking this box that they're actually doing what they're saying. But I can't imagine a company of that scale would get away with it for very long. But where this does become somewhat more controversial is in the idea of wind energy credits or renewable energy credits. The idea, this whole notion of carbon offsetting. We can offset our lifestyles by buying by renewable energy credits. And a number of companies will sell these credits. Are you guys familiar with, I would think we're pretty familiar with this conversation, with this topic at least. So here the idea is, okay, well, my car, for example, maybe emits 6 tons of pollution per year or something like that. I can go to a couple different companies and I can buy credits that are saying, okay, they're going to go plant trees on my behalf or they're going to go invest in wind farms on my behalf in some way that's going to relate to that 6 tons that comes out of my car and it's going to therefore offset it and bring my consumption or my car usage down to zero in terms of carbon emissions. That's the concept. But there's an organization called green E or green-E.org, which will certify the claims of companies that are offering these kinds of solutions. Because it is an area where it's hard to know who's really offering something that's legitimate and who's maybe offering something that it's harder to verify the claims. And I think that it's an evolving industry, so skepticism is very healthy in that area when deciding to make those kinds of choices. I'm sure I didn't answer your question exactly, but that's kind of where we are. I mean consumer still has to do some research in that area. In the book I highlighted three or four that I happen to think are particularly credible. Native energy, renewable choice energy. So your guess. Sorry, your guess is that if you the con Edison, for $100 more of energy power will be created a month in New York. On your. Yeah, I mean certainly that's the assumption I'm going on. And then of course, why is that important? Because if you're buying, you know, if more people come into this program and as people hear about it, I mean, a lot of people are gravitating toward these kinds of programs going, wait a second, I can just get wind in my home. I just had to check a box on a website. I mean, it does, it is sending that market signal, right. If more people do it, then wind energy companies will or those who build the wind farms are getting that demand signal that people actually want this. And I do believe it's a way for the market to send the right signal so we get more of the kind of solutions that we want to see. Yeah. I actually have three questions if you don't mind. The first one's really easy. What are those solar panels on your bag? That one I can definitely answer. Yeah, those are solar panels. What do they do? This is a company called Voltaic Systems. So the solar panels will charge anything up to a laptop for now, a phone, iPod, GPS. They also offer backpacks. We've actually sold some to a. The producers of a reality TV show that were going into the jungle. So they needed a power source that they could have with them. And part of the reason why I really like this kind of product, I actually have another one here. This is called the Solio. And this is again, portable solar. It fans out. You've got three different solar panels so you can charge your gadgets on the go. But what's particularly cool about this to me is that the solar power in this case is an enabler. It's a lifestyle enabler. You couldn't have a power source with you unless it were going to be solar because you can take that with you wherever your lifestyle is taking you. So, yes, solar panels. And then how do you feel about carbon labeling, sort of like on consumer products? I don't know if you've seen this. I think they're trying in the uk where literally on the labels will be this costs this many tons to produce or this much carbon. Is that something that's useful for your discussion? I think it's awesome. Timberland's also, I think doing it. They're starting to put on their packaging, certainly some of their footwear and I think most of their products actually an environmental label that's telling you. I'm not sure if they're doing that carbon labeling, but I think it's really important. And one of the things I see happening, particularly now in 2007, is that as more consumers, as more of us are gravitating toward this and saying, okay, we're willing to make these choices, the question comes up often, how do I know if I. How do I know I'm getting the claim that's being made behind it? How do I know the company's credible? And there are more certifications or I shouldn't have to say more. There are some credible certifications that are gaining more prominence. For example, something called the fsc, the Forest Stewardship Council, which is. There's a number of non governmental organizations involved in that. And they have set certified over 100 million acres of forest land around the world, that the practices that's going on in those forests are sustainable, are responsible the companies that are harvesting that wood. So if you see the FSC label, for example, and you see them also called Greenguard for indoor air quality. So the same thing with carbon labeling. This is a key concept and it's a complex concept. Right. If I have a pair of shoes, shoes from Timberland, which I do, and Timberland said, these are organic leather, which I'm still trying to figure out exactly what that means, but I think it's probably a good thing. Where are they made? How much energy did it take to ship them here? These are complex things that we haven't really thought about before. So if you can label in such a way that it becomes very easy for a consumer to quickly assess. Right. Educated enough carbon label. Okay, I get the rating system. This is A good product. I'm going to. I think it's really important. Cool. And my last question is about, you talked about cool and making things cool and how that's a really powerful force in our culture right now. How can we assure that the people, the early adopters are early adopters that will sort of see full on adoption of a technology as opposed to what happens sometimes with cool, that there's a backlash or people feel left out or that was just a FAD and that 2012, no one gives a crap about it. How do we make sure that it's the first case of the initial wave and then everyone else adopts the technology as opposed to a fad? Right. Well, I think cool. Cool is again, one lever and we could have a whole conversation about what actually makes something cool. To me, a lot of the ideas that I write about I happen to think are particularly cool. For example, there's a company called Recycle Bank. Has anyone heard of Recycle Bank? They're mostly based on the east coast now, but this company is like so innovative. They start in Philadelphia and it's a pretty young entrepreneur guy, Ron Gonin, I forget his partner's name, he went to Columbia Business School, they went to the city of Philadelphia and they said, look, last year you spent $100 million landfilling product that could have and really should have been recycled. You spent $100 million, you spent $100 million of taxpayers money. Here's what we're going to do. We're going to charge you $80 million. So we're going to save you $20 million and we're going to retrofit your recycling trucks. The municipality actually has recycling trucks. Many municipalities do. They just like don't use them. And we're going to retrofit them with a scanner. And what we're going to do is we're going to put inside each person's home, we're going to put one container and into that container they can dump their cereal box, their Coca Cola can, their glass from whatever, all the recyclables into one thing. They don't even have to separate it out. There's going to be a barcode on it. And when the truck comes to pick it up, it's going to scan the contents and scan for weight and we're going to take it to the recycling facility and then that homeowner or renter is going to log on to recyclebank.com see how much they've recycled and they'll be able to redeem that amount in recycle bank dollars at places like Whole Foods, Starbucks, they'll actually get paid for doing the right thing. So consumer benefits and it's convenient, and the environment benefits because stuff gets recycled, and the city benefits because they save money. Right? Win, win, win. Now, to me, that's a very sexy, cool idea. You know, and I mention that because I just think that what's happening here is we're seeing like an infrastructure go into place. We're seeing some companies again, focused on style or design. But it's just one lever of what's happening. And I think, to me, probably the biggest indication that. And there may be a backlash. I mean, you have so much media attention on this right now that people may kind of get tired of it. But to me, that just seems like. I think it will be like a little blip. Because when you look again at what's happening here in this area with Silicon Valley and where the same venture capitalists who basically gave us like Google and Amazon and the information revolution are now investing billions of dollars into clean tech, into the future of solar, into these renewable energy kinds of companies. And these people, as we know, don't make philanthropic bets, right? It's because they only do it because they see a market and they see that at some point there's going to be a major return because this has to be the way we go in the 21st century. So, you know, there's some real significant indicators to me that we will continue down this path. And again, it's just trying to use the levers that are effective for appealing to people. I mean, you can talk about LG just introduced a steam washer and dryer. So it's actually like cleaning your clothes with steam as opposed to necessarily lots of water. So it's going to save water. I believe the process also saves energy. And when your clothes is done drying, there's no wrinkles. You know, I mean, who's going to look at a washer dryer and be like, that is a cool, sexy product. I'm not sure how many people are going to do that, but lots of people would want that product and would continue to want it whether there's a fad or a trend or whatever else. And that's the innovation that I think will continue to drive this forward. So what happened to the jacket that you had before that? And why can't you still wear it? Let's see the jacket I had before this. Well, I still have one of them. I actually have a 1995 Patagonia fleece that people have been begging me to put away somewhere or give away or something. I think the idea of saying, again, we're going to go shop, go buy new stuff when we have stuff, why should we be making that choice? I assume, am I gathering that that's where the question is coming from? And also sort of longevity of things. I think it'd be very easy. Easy to make clothing and other items last a lot longer than they do. So I have two thoughts, I guess, on those two questions, maybe, or maybe it's one. But on the one hand, I think I happen to believe that when I'm supporting a company like now, or supporting, I'm actually going out to buy this kind of product. I happen to also believe that we're actually directing our, our money toward companies that one, are doing good. But two, as these companies grow, they're hiring people into jobs. A lot of us come out of school. I mean, I came out of business school and undergraduate and left a PhD program and have been with so many people that have thought, you know, here are my values, here's my kids, my expenses, my house, whatever. Here's what I want to do, here's what I'd like to go work on. But there's no job for me in that that's going to pay me enough to have a lifestyle doing something I believe in, that supports my lifestyle. And I do believe that as we're shopping and supporting these companies, we're shifting our dollars to where the jobs are going to continue to be. But on the second point of longevity and kind of obsolescence and things of that nature, I mean, Patagonia, for example, has started to implement a program where they will take back items and they will recycle that fabric into new items. And I think if you look at our culture again, and you just look at the fashion industry, it's very difficult to approach the fashion industry and say, stop designing. Some companies come out with new products every few weeks because this is how we're shopping. But it's very difficult to try and even start, slow that engine down. But if you can start to say, hey, what if you can find a way to use the same fabric so we're not just constantly using virgin materials to have the new look this season. These are new ideas. But I have seen some companies that are starting to create some programs in that direction. My favorite shirt lasted a lot longer than any other shirt, primarily because it had leather patches on its elbows. And, you know, there's simple things like that or replaceable collars so that you could get, usually the collar wears out before anything else where you could, you know, make clothes more longevity, last longer and be easily repaired. And I don't see many features like that on clothing from companies like Patagonia. Right, that's actually an awesome idea. I hadn't heard of that before, but again, if you had like say American Apparel did that, right? Because like they're forward thinking company, they make all their stuff in la, it's socially responsible, get paid a fair wage. What if they're like, and now we have, you know, new collars, you can get a new collar, keep your shirt. But it just seems to me that in our culture you would still have to do it in a way where you would be marketing it and saying, great, keep your same shirt. Now it's a whole new fashion statement and all you have to do is change the collar and maybe, you know, change the patch on the arm or something. Okay. And that backpack, I've seen a lot of sort of combining two or more different things into one item. So you have solar panels and a backpack, but you could have just as easily bought a pair of portable solar panels and slapped it on your old backpack, Correct? Yeah, that's definitely true. And if you're out hiking, I mean there's a number of options now with some really good product for that. So I think you're absolutely right. And I actually think one of the things that's pretty cool great right now is that in this environmental, if you're talking about environmental products or products like this, you have choice. We're not all going to gravitate toward the same solution. So of course we could totally, totally do that. But now there's some other options also. Yeah, I guess I see the backpack as interesting, but sort of a gimmick that just encourages you to buy and use another backpack when you may already have one that perfectly suitable. And I think we could probably go back and forth for a while. But I would just say to you, I think maybe it is a gimmick, but the reality is if someone's going to go buy a backpack Anyway, as like 100 million school kids are going to go do this fall, why not give them a choice that actually might get them a little bit more off the grid? And I just, I'm only saying that I would mostly agree with you, but again, I just look at where we are as a culture of consumption and at least how do we get people moving down the path of better choices? Okay, thanks. Thanks for the talk. I Found it most inspiring. And so my question is about other marketing companies trying to make things that people think are uncool into things they think are cool. Like, for example, windmills. I hear that in some regions of the country, people think windmills clutter the landscape. They don't want them anywhere near them and so on. But people like me think it's cool. But then I'm a geek, right? So how do you change people's perceptions of things? Well, I have an idea. And actually, so maybe we should talk about. Well, you tell me if you like it, because we're looking for funding, right? But I think again, what if you just do you know how this. More and more we're hearing this conversation about reusable shopping bags. And in San Francisco, I believe, banned petroleum or is trying to ban petroleum based plastic bags from the big box stores. What if you did a reusable shopping bag and you put it on organic cotton canvas and you got like the best artist or some really famous designer to design a windmill, right? And it just says windmills are beautiful. I just really think we're a culture where if the right medium is presenting the message, there's a great many Americans who are like, oh, okay, windmills are beautiful. You know, I hear it enough. Windmills are beautiful. Windmills are beautiful. I mean, or maybe you could dress them up like the Dutch windmills. You know, people go to see them as tourist sites, you know. Yeah, exactly, exactly. But some people are going to come along, right? There's actually a building. I'm not sure if they've broken ground on it yet. But, you know, I think it's like the biggest mall at least in New York State. And maybe beyond that, going up near Syracuse, New York. And I believe the guy who's doing it is planning to power the entire thing on renewable energy. And I think that means a lot of solar, means a lot of wind. And his idea is to make the renewable energy, all of the environmental practices very prominent, very conspicuous. So you're going to come have this incredible whatever you do at a mall experience. And the green is going to be integrated in a way that's again, trying to make it like, oh, look at that. And make it like spectacle. But I think again, it's just thinking about what works, what gets people excited, what gets people thinking. That's the coolest thing again. And then using that understanding to try and use it for the environment. I actually saw, I was in Nashville a few weeks ago for, on doing a book talk and talking to some interior designers. About green interior design. And that particular day they had, like, there was a concert going on and it was evangelical, something far right Christian and rock bands. And the music was great. And not only that, they actually had this. These motocross guys who were doing these incredible stunts, you know, and they'd all found Jesus and they were doing like, these incredible stunts and like back flips and they had skateboarders. And I just sat there going, that is so smart. You know, how do we, like, bottle that and go use that approach for the environment? Because, you know, it works. And I think that kind of thinking is great because it's what works. Is it great? I don't know if it's great, but it's effective. So trying to find the stuff that's effective. Thanks. So interest in the environment and willingness to do things to help the environment or address climate change and so on is pretty uneven nationally. Geographically, it's uneven based on education level and so on. What's been your experience with the radio program in terms of acceptance growing or not growing among regions or among people who typically have not been interested? This almost seems like a planted question because this is like one of my favorite topics. Again, what I find so inspiring right now is that, yes, you come to California and this is just. Green is part of the culture in New York. Green is kind of part of the culture, but there's some really interesting building and stuff going on. And people are like. And certainly a lot of the media stuff with the radio show. A lot of the people who either email or phone in are in places that may be a little bit unexpected. We have a very strong following in South Carolina, and we have a very strong following in Tennessee. And we were doing a show about fashion recently. We had this woman, Kyan Sayer, who's an eco fashion expert on the show. And we were talking about some of the new materials that you can work with, bamboo and how soy is being made into really new fabric. And this guy from central Iowa called in. He said, I just bought a farm. I'm trying to renovate and make a greenhouse. What crop should I grow so I can plug into this whole eco fashion thing? And I just thought that was like the most amazing thing to me. So the short answer is, I really believe that this is happening in a big way, or there's interest in a big way all over the country. When people get information that they can act on, you know, they really want to do it. They really want to do it. And that's, for me, personally, so inspiring. When I get that kind of feedback. Thank you. Well, yeah, if there's no more questions. Thank you. Been a great conversation. Really appreciate it. Yeah. Josh has offered to sign books if you want to come up front.