Using Psychology to Make Investment Decisions

Sam, Really optimistic and happy today because my wife got her first moderna shot yesterday, so I have both. She has one, and we stay away from our kids, basically. So Happy Wednesday, Vaccine Wednesday. V for vaccination. Yeah. So first I want to ask you something. So it's getting very sunny here in Santa Cruz, so I'm in the sun too much, really. So yesterday I made a big decision. So this was my old shade of foundation, and yesterday I went to this shade of foundation because I think I need to go darker as I get tanned. And the reason why I use foundation, it's not vanity. Well, I guess it is vanity at some level, but it's really about trying to take the shiny spots and high spots and cover the burn when I get sunburned, even though I use sunblock. So, yeah, that can be the icebreaker question. You like my new makeup? It is l' Oreal True Match super blendable powder. And you would think they would put a number on it. So you could say, hey, I'm. Oh, oh, I am just so, you know, C as in Charlie 8. So if you want to match my makeup, and I don't have to disclose that this is a sponsored makeup plug, because I'm not sponsored. I bought it from CVS in Soledad, California, where we got vaccinated. So anyway, yeah, ask your questions in the comments. Be happy to take questions. Today's guest on the Remarkable People podcast, remarkablepeople.com is Nikhil Kamath. He is the co founder of Zeroda. Zeroda is the largest brokerage firm in India and it. Well, first of all, if for no other reason, you should listen to this podcast because, oh, my God, that guy is the definition of calm and stoic. I have never interviewed a guest who is more calm and more stoic than that. So, yeah, so check out that interview. We, we go into a lot about investing, such as and entrepreneurship. So some key conversation points in the. In the interview was, first of all, the genesis of his company. You know, there's this kind of made for Bollywood story about he was a chess champion and then he worked for a call center. And then he started this brokerage firm with his brother, which my interpretation is he's kind of a combination of Slumdog Millionaire, Queen's Gambit, and Charles Schwab. So think of it that way. Although we did bust the kind of myth that, you know, he was a chess genius and that helped him with his trading. He said that that really didn't have any effect. And what Zero has done is it has removed the barriers to stock trading in India. It is one of the places where you can get stock trades for free. The, the kind of revenue who gets is because of more sophisticated ways of trading, particularly intraday trading. So that's what he monetizes, but not the regular trades. And so one interesting aspect of this particular episode is the value of removing barriers to customers and how that creates entrepreneurial opportunities. A second thing is, you know, how does he monetize? Because the brokerage business is a very competitive business. Almost everybody offers free trades. So how do you monetize? What's your business model? And everything by everybody is all given for free. So what do you monetize? A third topic is that he has never raised venture capital, and that has set him free. So there's some discussion about the advantages of not raising venture capital. And a fourth topic is about investment. And, you know, what he uses for investment criteria. And his primary criteria is sort of the sentiment about a company and about an economy, as opposed to looking at fundamental numbers and stuff like that. He tries to gauge the sentiment of the market, which is more, I think, social psychology and behavioral economics than, you know, hardcore quants. Next thing to my surprise, we discussed cyber currency and cryptocurrency, and he's thumbs down on that. And I was surprised. I thought, you know, this young millennial in India, high tech kind of guy, he'd be all into cyber cash and all that kind of stuff. And he's not. Neither am I, by the way. But that's a different discussion. And then, as I said earlier, we talked about his calm demeanor, and he actually discussed the positives and negatives of a calm demeanor. So that's today's podcast. That is Nikhil Kamath, and he is the co founder of Zerodha. Last week was Brandy Chastain. She was the World cup participant in 1999. She's the one who scored the penalty kick goal against China that enabled America to win the World cup in California. It was played live in California. And what an exhilarating moment and what an interesting personality Randy Chastain is. So if you're into football or soccer, check out last week. So last week was soccer, this week is investments. We cover everything in remarkable people. So let's see, you got any questions, and. And I have a favor to ask of you. Okay, so I was interviewed by a podcast this week and I asked the person, well, how do you get new subscribers? How do you increase the number of downloads? And he said that what he does is, is in the middle of his Podcast. He asked people the following question, which is if you know somebody who would like this podcast, who would find value of this podcast, just do me a favor and send a text or an email and ask them to listen to it. And he said roughly he gets an increase of 10% whenever he does that. So I'm asking you now if you know someone who would enjoy the Remarkable People podcast, listening to people like Jane Goodall and Brandy Chastain and Steve Wozniak and Margaret Atwood, Jane Goodall and Nikhil, please send them a text or an email and suggest they check out Remarkable People. It is@remarkable people.com okay. You could also just click the button and share it. But you know, text or email, I think those are the two most effective things. And, and speaking of text, I have started a text messaging service for my extended ohana. If you want to sign up, go to 831-609-0628. I will tell you though, this only works with US and Canada. I'm sorry, that's just the limitations of this kind of platform right now. So if you're in U.S. and Canada and you want to get notifications and messages from me now, this is a one to many service. So I text something, lots of people get it, but if you respond only I get it. And from then on we're in a one on one conversation. So I think that more people check text than email. So if you want to get into a one on one conversation with me, join this service at 831-609-0628. It may mean that you have to move to America or Canada though. What can I say? So okay, questions, what's your questions, Elliot? Been too long without my healthy dose of you guys. Well, Elliot, it's only been a week. What are your thoughts on equity crowdfunding? Equity crowdfunding? You know, this is the democratization of venture capital. And the theory is that, you know, why should it be that only Sandhill billionaires can invest in the next Google or Apple or Cisco or Yahoo or you know, whatever. Not we work and not Theranos. And you know, I understand that concept. I'm all about democratization because I think Macintosh democratized computing and Canva certainly has democratized design. By the way, Canva announced the late, its latest round with like a 19 billion dollar valuation. Hallelujah. So, you know, so I understand that concept. You know, why should these investments be limited to extremely rich people? But you know, the, the, the thought that, okay, so investment is easy, we should democratize it. Everybody gets out there and can invest in stuff. And so you could have a piece of the next Google or Apple or Microsoft or Facebook or, you know, whatever. That is a very deceptive logic. But because the mathematical probability of you investing through some of this crowdfunding stuff in the next Google or Apple or Facebook or Pinterest or Instagram is basically zero, the odds of a venture capitalist investing in one of those unicorns is basically zero. So can you imagine the odds of you investing in one of those is really basically zero. And then I think equity crowdfunding, the other sort of danger is that, you know, it's going to be so ripe for abuse because those pitches that you read, every one of them is going to pretend like they have patent pending, curve jumping, paradigm shifting, world class leaders in a large and untapped market with very few competitors, none of whom can do what they do, which is basically total. So, you know, you, you always got to keep in mind that the quote, unquote, little old lady or the little old man who's investing their retirement dollars thinking that they're putting it into the next Apple, because statistically that just ain't happening. Now, on the other hand, if you're using crowdfunding for Kickstarter, because, I don't know, you want to support the next generation of, you know, cooler for beer, or you want to support the next generation of iPhone case, or you want to support the next generation of, I don't know, new kind of surfboard and in exchange for taking a bet on Kickstarter, you get a deal, you get early, you know, access to the product or something. I understand that. All right, but in that case, you might lose a couple hundred bucks, right? So you pay a couple hundred bucks and you think you're going to get the next greatest, you know, iPhone battery case, super solar powered, nuclear powered, you know, whatever. Right, I understand. At so you could lose 200 bucks. That's not equity though. You are losing your money. It's like you paid a deposit and you know, the company didn't produce that. But the game of equity funding is typically much larger than just buying an iPhone case, and that's dependent on the company shipping and being successful and then having a liquidity event. So, you know, most companies who start don't have a liquidity event, they have a liquidation event. So anyway, I hate to, you know, piss on your parade, but the concept that, yeah, equity funding via crowdfunding is a great thing is democratize venture capital so everybody can have a piece of the next Apple I think is very, very, very flawed. What else? Kudra. Kudrat is the person who made the interview with Nikhil possible. What is the most surprising thing you found out about Nikhil after speaking with him? I have to say, I just did not expect him to be so calm and stoic. Oh, my God. I have never met someone as calm and stoic as him, and I wish I could bottle what he has. Forget the stock business, man. Just like Kudrat. Calm lotion or Nikhil. Nikhil for inner calmness, of course. A surprise on top of the surprise was that I asked him about this, and then to my other secondary surprise, he said, you know what? But there's also a negative to being calm and stoic, which is your friends and your family. And, you know, they're. They want you to be more emotional. They want you to be less calm. So there is a negative in being very calm, too. And that was another insight that I never expected. Here I thought, I'm talking to, like, a young Indian, Chuck Schwab, and he's giving me all this life advice. So those are the two things. Well, By the way, you know, I'm expecting you to get 1% of the people in India to subscribe to my podcast. So how many people are there in India? 3 billion. So 3. What's 1% of 3 billion? 10% would be 300 million. So 30 million. 30 million. I would be bigger than Joe Rogan. You get me 30. You don't even. I'll give you a break. You don't need to give me 30 million. Give me 5 million. I want 5 million people in India subscribing to my podcast. And then I'll be bigger than Joe Rogan. I'll be so big, maybe I could get Elon Musk on my podcast. Yeah. What else? Chai. Chai, Yo. What? That. That's your name? Chai, Yo. That is a. Or. Or is that like a screen name? That is a great. If that's your name. Chai. Or, I don't know, maybe you're Jewish and it's high, but that's one of the best names I've ever seen. Any advice how to prioritize my financial gain to ensure my passive income savings do not vanish? Well, hi. Or Chai. I must admit, I am not a financial advisor, but, you know, my sort of theory is there is money you want in the bank, literally. And that is not. That's very conservative. I don't mean conservative in the political sense. Yeah, I don't. I'm not Suggesting you have Republican money. I'm suggesting that there's some money that should be stuff that's so safe that the world has got to come to an end before that goes away. And we almost reached that point with the pandemic, by the way. But anyway, so. So there's. I would say, you know, a lot of your. Your net worth should be that. And then there's some that's kind of speculative and play money. And so this leads me to why I'm so contrary to cryptocurrency. Because I think people are putting money in there they cannot afford to lose, and they think that cryptocurrency is going to. As Buzz Lightyear was saying, to infinity and beyond. And one thing I learned in my life is that trees do not grow to the sky. Trees stop, trees die. There are forest fires. The odds that you have got the tree that it's going to reach into the sky is zero. What else? Let's see. Ah, these little. I don't know about you guys, but these. These little things that say P. Are blocking. What are your thoughts on Starlink? NASA, Blue origin, A race to space. Oh, there, it's big. Thank you, Jeff. I am not a rocket science test, but, yeah, I think we should explore space. I think that they're. Just for the sake of intellectual curiosity, we should explore space. I suppose that there may be commercial benefits to this, but it's not like I'm saying, okay, we should explore space so that we can get a better orange juice called Tang. That's not exactly the goal, but I think we need to know what's out there, and there will be benefits to exploring space that we just do not anticipate right now. And the concept that, you know, with a bunch of satellites, anybody on the earth can get good Internet access is very appealing to me. So although I'm sitting in Santa Cruz, I have to say I'm in Santa Cruz. I hope none of you are in Santa Cruz because you slowed us down. But I'm in Santa Cruz and I get ATT fiber and ATT fiber. I swear to God, it is one gigabit up and one gigabit down. I mean, I am just freaking amazed. And you think, oh, it must be 500 bucks a month. It's $60 a month. $60 a month. I get one gigabit up and down. I am just amazed. And this particular. I. I have a studio here. You can see the back of it here. So I love Boca, so. Or Bouquet, as we say. So I have a studio Here and I brought the ATT fiber into the house where the studio is, so I am connected via Ethernet. So I truly do get one gigabit up and down. And the rest of the house I use a Netgear, see what it's called a Netgear Orbi wi fi mesh system. So the rest of the house gets about 2 or 300 megabits, but I get 1 gigabit and I'm a happening dude right here. So yeah, I, you know, I guess I could use satellite access, but why for 60 bucks a month? One gigabit up and down. Hallelujah. Praise God. What else? How to onboard co founder A very good CTO considering I'm a pre seed loan founder with a mighty very interesting idea with psychology or tools. Thanks. Ciao. How to onboard as a co founder Well, I would say that by definition if you're, if you're bringing on a co founder, I would say there are two things. First, I hope the co founder has a different set of skills because if you're both nerds, then who's going to sell what you make? And if you're both salespeople, then who's going to make what you need to sell? So that's the beauty of Apple, you know, one nerd and one marketeer. And so that is one concept. Second concept is I think you need to be sure you're on the same page, so to speak, that your co founder and you agree on the company in terms of variables such as you know this company is the center of your life, whereas your co founder thinks that this company is a hobby or that your co founder is trying to seek a life work balance. You better be both on the same page where you're both obsessed or you're both thinking of this as a hobby or you're both thinking of this as you know you're going to achieve work life balance. Because, well, specifically I think work life balance is a myth. And so in certain times of your life chronologically and doing certain things, just give up on the concept of work life balance. There are going to be times if you start a company, you're just going to work your ass off and there's not going to be work life balance. And if you think there is, you're deluding yourself. So make sure you're on the same page with those two things and then, I mean it would be helpful if you're on the same page. Although diversity in thinking helps also. But you know that I don't know what your product is, but you Know you're both thinking, well, this is a consumer play or this is a B2B play, you need to be on the same page. You're going to sell direct or indirect. Now all of these variables can be changed, but at least you should see that your co founder is amenable to change and also frankly, that you are amenable to change. And the last thing I would tell you about co founders is whatever you're hiring your co founder for in terms of expertise, you better make sure that your co founder is better at what you need than you are. Because if, if you are one of these control freak CEOs who thinks you're the best engineer, the best marketer, the best operations, the best finance, the best pr, the best everything, and you, you hire a co founder and your co founder is not as good as you and his or her specific role, you're headed for a disaster. So I'm telling you, you have got to find people who are better than you. A players. Hire A plus players. If you're an A player, it should be a source of pride that you've hired someone better than you, not worse than you. What else? Don't forget remarkable people. Nikhil Kamath. He is the co founder of Zerodha, the largest brokerage firm in India. I just need 5 million people from India to subscribe to my podcast. What do you think about democratizing the Internet so we have equal opportunity and reach? Andrew, I think the Internet is pretty democratized already. It's not clear to me if you're talking about access speed, which clearly is not exactly democratized now maybe satellite access, you know, that can reach Sub Saharan Africa and stuff or you know, parts of Brazil, though Brazil didn't worry about the pandemic before. They worry about Internet access. Yeah, hallelujah. I think that, you know, actually I think that's kind of a right. That's a, that should be a given. That's a human right. But, you know. Yeah, what else? Aloha. What are your thoughts on. We got that already, Jeff. Are you testing me, Jeff? Are you trying to see if I'm senile? I saw that question already. What do you think of NFTs? Okay, I like this question. Okay, so I'm totally like skeptical about cryptocurrency, but I'm totally optimistic about NFTs because I think NFTs really serve a purpose, whereas cryptocurrency doesn't. So I think NFTs helping you with the provenance of something is very useful. So let's take a Santa Cruz example. So one of the best surfboard shapers in the world is a guy named Bob Pearson. He has a shop here called Pearson Arrow. Now, if he embraced NFTs. So when you buy a Pearson Arrow, it comes with an nft. This certifies that he made that board. It's not a knockoff, it's not counterfeit. He really, Bob Pearson shaped that board. I mean, you could make it so specific that, you know, whether he shaped it or somebody else in his shop shaped it, it's that specific. But let's just say he certifies that he shaped it. So you buy the Pearson Arrow board, it comes with an nft, you really know he shaped it. And then let's suppose that you're a really famous surfer, not me. So you're a really famous surfer, and you use that board and then you decide to sell it. So now the NFT goes to the purchaser, right? And so now the purchaser has an NFT that proves that the board was made by Bob Pearson and then the board was used by, I don't know, Kelly Slater. That has a lot of value to me now. So that's something physical, right? Now, what about something digital? Like, would I pay 3 million bucks for the NFT to the first tweet by Jack Dorsey? You have got to be insane to do that. So, but having said that, let's take a more meaningful example. Let's say that you buy an NFT for photograph done by Annie Leibovitz of Michelle Obama. Okay, so Michelle Obama photographed by Annie Leibovitz. Annie Leibovitz provides that photo to you with an nft. I think that that's worth extra money. I really do, because, wow, it's Annie Leibovitz. And even if it wasn't Michelle Obama, let's say it's, you know, Joe Schmo or Tiffany. Annie Leibovitz. NFT of Tiffany or Joe Blow. That's worth extra money too. So I'm thumbs up on nft. When are you going to have Bob on your podcast, huh? I could have Bob on my podcast. Do you think that surfing is too narrow focus? And I absolutely could have Bob on for my podcast. I have, let me count here. I have. I have a 10, two nose rider. I have an 11, two glider. I have a nine, I have a 10, two just all around board. I have a nine, 11 and I have a nine, nine. And I have a. No, I have six Pearson arrows. Oh, my God, that doesn't even count. My families. I personally have Six piercing arrows. Maybe I should have on my podcast. That's a pretty good idea. Stay tuned. Stay tuned. Subscribe to my podcast so you don't miss that. Okay, I hope all of you have texted or emailed somebody to join my podcast. That's not too much to ask. Take next question. What's your view on Algo Forex trading in terms of risk and potential long term investment? I don't know what Algo Forex trading is. I must say that I'm not a big believer in currency trading, cyber or not. I just, you know, I think you should invest in stuff where people really make something as opposed to arbitrage. Now, lots of people make money in arbitrage, but that's just like not my thing. So. Surfing is a very small community. But his life experience will appeal to everyone. Jeremy, I'm on it. Okay. I could text him right now and ask. All right. Yeah, I swear. Is this camera out of focus? Let me see something. Now that truly is in focus right now. Guy, I love you. Dude, did you check out neurophones? Oh, I forgot to check out neurophones. I, you know, after last week's. I know you mentioned that and I couldn't remember what the name of it is. And then you have to understand. So I'm using ECAMM Live. Okay, so I'm using ECAMM Live and ecamm Live sends it to Restream and Restream sends it to Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, LinkedIn. That's it. And so when comments come in, like you telling me on neurophone, I don't know where that comment came in from which service, because it happened so fast and so I didn't know where to go look. And there's hundreds of comments on these things. So I'd have to go four services looking for the comments in Neurofilm 400 earphone. Okay, I will. I am at the Neurophone website right now and I can't have over the ear. So this is an in ear microphone. And the reason why I can't have over the ear or even on ear is because I think it looks too nerdy. I give a lot of keynote addresses using this setup and it looks too nerdy if your keynote speaker has over the ear on the earth. Oh, but they have neural loop. The world's smartest earphones. Wonder what makes them smart. How much does it cost? 149 bucks. That's nothing, huh? That's like the price of two fins. Okay, I'm checking it out. I'm checking it out. Okay, what else? Love your podcast. This makes you closer, engaging with your audience. Andre, are you saying the podcast makes me closer or going live makes me closer? Although the text message makes me closer too. So, Jeff, put that number up again. 8, 3, 1. I can't memorize. 60906, 2, 8. Family members are standing by. What else? How could NFT or Blockchain help the HR recruiting process? Huh? That's a good question. I don't know. When I think of NFTs, I think of digital assets or physical assets, you know, surfboards or Annie Leibovitz photos. I guess you could put an NFT on your job offer to make sure that you know this offer for half a million a year, 500, 000 shares, you're sure it's authentic, but that's a limited use case. I don't know how it could help, but I really don't. I don't, I don't. You know, NFTs are not for everything. I think it's for assets. So what else? Is there going to be an update to your book, the Artist Art of the Smart. That's interesting. I should write a book. The Art of the Smart. He's actually referring to the Art of the Start. He's referring to this book. So could there be a version 3? Let's see. When did I write this thing? You know, as an author, you forget when you write the book. I'm telling you, people think you just, you know, you know everything. One of the most embarrassing things as an author is somebody comes up to you and they read it, they tell you, I just loved your book. And you know that story you told about, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I wrote this book. See, it's copyrighted. I can't even tell you what year it's copyrighted. That's embarrassing. Why do they use a small text? I can't barely read it. This book was written six years ago. So somebody comes up to you and says, yeah, I just read artists start 2.0 and I love your story, and blah, blah, blah, blah. And I gotta tell you, I'm sitting there thinking, what the hell is he talking about? What the hell was that story about? No idea what that story. Because if it was published six years ago, it was written seven years ago. I don't remember what I did yesterday, much less seven years ago. So. So wait, getting back to your question, will there be a version three of that? Huh? Well, what has changed in the last seven years? You know, I'm not going to Write about cryptocurrency in it. Well, well, this pandemic, quote unquote, will come to an end. But I would think one thing I could add to that book is, you know, how to do the virtual pitch, virtual meeting, virtual recruitment. When that book was written, there was social media, but nothing like this live stuff, certainly not clubhouse. So there are new tools that have appeared. Learning has changed. You know, there's a handful of things that have changed enough. I don't know if it justifies a version three, though. Version 2.1, maybe, but I, I will consider that too. But I gotta tell you, man, writing a book is. Writing a book is painful. And honestly, revising a book you already wrote is even more painful. But yeah. Okay, next question. With pandemic and lockdowns around, if someone wants to think of launching a startup in these uncertain times, what area would you recommend, man? Well, Rajeev, I think that almost by definition, you should not ask somebody else what area of, or what category or market you should create a startup for. That's, I think, kind of a backwards question. So when you start a startup, it's because you truly love something, a product or service. In fact, you almost feel a moral obligation to bring it out. So, you know, you don't go around and say, okay, so guy, what area do you do you think, And I tell you NFTs. And you, you know, you could care less about NFTs, but you decide, okay, guys, at NFT, so I'm going to do an NFT company or what if I had said cryptocurrency? Oh my God. So I don't think you should listen to other people about their ideas about what segments are hot. You should do what you think is hot and what you love and just hope you're not the only person who thinks that. So I'm going to avoid your question by telling you don't ask that question, because by the time somebody like me thinks that an area will be hot, it's too late. So the, the goal of an entrepreneur should be to make an area hot, not to react to an area that is already hot. What else? What principles do you think are universal for every bead of evangelism? Well, I would say that the most important thing about evangelism is a great product or service. You have to truly believe that what you are dealing with is going to make the world a better place. And so it will, in the words of Steve Jobs, dent the universe. So, you know, Macintosh made the world a better place and made people more creative. And productive Canva has increased humanity's capacity to communicate because now everybody can create graphics that will help them communicate better. So I think the number one requirement of evangelism is fine. Affiliate or create something great. Because it's easy to evangelize something great. It's hard to evangelize. So don't evangelize. Run from. Quote me. Put that in your tweet. Run from Ikawasaki. What are you investing in now during these uncertain periods? I. Chai. Is it chai or hi is a common Thai name. Oh, you're from Thailand, huh? Huh? I, I don't invest well. How do I say this? I have, I use a financial planner. And that original question. I allocate a certain amount of my net worth to the financial planner and I don't even question what they do. They put it in all kinds of stuff. They diversify, they make it really safe, you know, because if you look at my total overall financial picture, so much of my ass is hanging out in startups that is as high risk as possible. So the part that is in the bank post tax is very, very safe stuff. Because my exposure to high tech and high risk is so great in the rest of my life that I need to have balance. I can't put everything in high risk. So that money from that the financial planner is investing is in safe, safe, safe, low yield stuff. And now, so you say, well, you know, how did you get the exposure to the high risk stuff? And even that, that's. No, not so much me writing checks. I'm at the stage in my life where I don't have to write a check to get options. People want me for my expertise, some of the people some of the time. But anyway, so people want me for my expertise, my window dressing, you know, whatever it is, not necessarily my money. So I don't need to write a check to get investments now. I can, I can get it through advice and mentorship and stuff like that. So I have a different investment model for most people and it's because I'm 66 years old. I mean, I don't, you know, you couldn't do that at 25. I couldn't do that. 25. But at 66, I mean, theoretically, your wisdom is more important than your money. How about one more question, Jeff? Sue, I would like to see you do a cameo. But it's so niche specific. Unless you have the life experience, it wouldn't seem authentic. How do we discuss cameo possibility, Sue? So, and people I just joined cameo. So believe it or not, you can go to Cameo and book me and I will do a very specific cameo for you. Now what she's addressing is, you know, my reputation or my awareness is in stuff like tech, entrepreneurship, social media, marketing, etc. A little bit of surfing, maybe California lifestyle, Silicon Valley, whatever. Right? So if, if you go to Cameo, you say, okay, guy, I want you to do a shout out specifically for cryptocurrency. You might not want to do that. If you go to Cameo, say, guy, I want you to talk about, you know, fundamentalism or I don't know, you know, my spouse is a big fan of Nietzsche and Kant, so when you talk about philosophy, you might not want to do that. But for everything else like sales, marketing, entrepreneurship, Silicon Valley, tech, that kind of stuff, that I can handle. So if that is too narrow for you, then, you know, go to Cameo and search for, I don't know, philosophers or speaking of philosophers, though, I did just interview Mark Manson, who I consider a philosopher. Mark Manson is the author of the book the Subtle art of not giving a you know what. And he also wrote another book called Everything is you know what. And wow, he was an interesting guy. Very philosophical. It's not about the profanity, it's really about his wisdom. So anyway, Sue, I don't know if that answers your question, but you know, listen, if, if, if your cameo is for a young teenager who's a hip hop, tick tock, rapping kind of dude or dudette. Yeah, go get the cameo from Snoop Dogg or something. Not me. God, what can I say? On the other hand, I don't know if you'd go and, you know, ask Snoop Dogg, can you tell my cousin how successful she'll be in her new NFT company? Actually, maybe Snoop Dogg can address that, but there's some stuff that I just, I don't have any credit. And that's the beauty of cameo, that, you know, that's it. But for 49 bucks, what do you expect? Okay, so what? One last question, Jeff. Are we done here? I can't surf today because I have a 12 o' clock and a 1 o' clock meeting. So no more questions. Jeff. Oh, what's the best advice you would give to manage conflicts in the workplace based on your Apple experience? Too bad you had to throw that phrase in based on your Apple experience because that changes the answer. But I think managing conflicts. Well, first of all, there is an upside to conflict. So conflict, depending on how you define it, conflict, or at least divergence in thinking is good. That if everybody thought the same way you might go down a path and, you know, you all think it's a bridge and it's actually a pier. So divergence and diversity and some conflict is good because it has the ability to make thinking expand outside the box. Now, if it's just knockdown, drag out, conflict, conflict. Well, I mean, that says a lot about the organization. I think the. There should be, you know, sort of zero tolerance for that. And, I don't know, Apple was an autocracy, but it was more or less a benign autocracy. You could also make the case that with Apple, when Steve Jobs was there, don't get me wrong, he was not afraid of conflict. He would just rip you. But it actually had a kind of a unifying effect because all of us employees, we were generally all afraid of him. So it brought us closer together. I'm not sure he planned it that way, but it kind of did work. So I think there should be zero tolerance for it. But diversity of thinking and conflicted thinking, I think is a good thing. Okay, so again, this is Guy Kawasaki. I'm the creator of the Remarkable People podcast. I am the Chief Evangelist of Canva. I want you to go to remarkablepeople.com and send a text message or an email to all the people you know who could benefit from listening to Remarkable People and become more remarkable too. So that's it for another Wednesday live session. Take care. Have a great week. Vaccinations are coming or here, but that doesn't mean that you should not wash your hands, not wear a mask, and sit close to strangers in bars. Okay? Okay. If you can get vaccinated, get vaccinated. Thank you, cvs. All right, take care. Bye. Mahalo. Aloha.