Wanda Harding: A Journey from Stars to Students

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I'm Guy Kawasaki and this is Remarkable People. We're on a mission to make you remarkable. Helping me in this episode is the remarkable Wanda Harding. A former NASA engineer and rocket scientist with over 20 years of experience in the aerospace field. Her knowledge stretches from the stars to the classroom. She worked on the International Space Station program and managed the launch of the Mars Science Laboratory mission. But her journey didn't end there. Today, she's using her expertise to inspire the next generation of scientists and engineers. As an 8th grade physical science teacher at Young Middle School in Atlanta, Wanda is also the author of a book called When I Consider God's Amazing Universe, a children's book about the connection between God and the universe. Wanda holds a bachelor's degree in electrical engineering from Hampton University and a master's degree from the Georgia Institute of Technology. She was the only woman of color on the team during the Mars Curiosity rover mission. Get ready to be inspired by Wanda's incredible journey and the impact she's making on the world. I'm Guy Kawasaki. This is Remarkable People. And now, here's Wanda Harding. Wanda, you could say as a test, houston, we have a problem.

Ha. All right. Houston, we have a problem.

There you go. So if you had said no, Curiosity would not have taken off. I mean, that's the kind of power you had.

And when you put it like that, the answer is, wow. Yeah, I guess so. The way the launch pole work, it gives everybody an opportunity to highlight and say, if something doesn't quite go right, then we're sitting on the ground for whatever the duration is for it to go well. And by the time we got to our actual launch date, I think we were at that point where we were actually sitting on console. And the weather for that day, we literally had just the right opening in the clouds for us to do a takeoff. And so everything just had to come together. And it did. It did. But yes, that is what happens if someone gives a no. Then we sit there until we figure out the problem.

But I'm just curious, okay, so at that kind of moment, is it a real binary decision? Like all the gauges are green? Let her rip. Is it a no brainer? Or are there some things that are yellow, some things green? Something's Red. And then Wanda says, nope, we're going. How does it work?

So the reality of how it works, my role as a mission manager had a lot more to do with getting to the launch date. And when you're sitting on console, it's everything that happened up to that point. If any part of that comes apart, then my no go would be based on, wait a minute, everything that was supposed to be in place didn't quite happen. So when you ask if it's binary, it really is. And it's the likelihood, it's probabilities, it's just everything coming into play of your role, your part. And if it's green, we're good, we're go. And you're talking about not just my input for it, but you have the program manager for the actual Curiosity rover. You have the ULA representatives who are responsible for the rocket itself. Our role is NASA bringing all of that together. And yes, it's that binary. And you're just sitting there on console, you're like, everybody has to give that green light. And by the time you get to that final countdown, if it's there, we're good, we're off the ground.

But are you saying that at the point that you say go, everything is perfect? I mean, there's nothing that is not quite right, but okay, we can still.

Go for that type of investment. You want to make sure everything is as perfect as it can be. And I've been in the situation with prior campaigns where we got to a point where we had to do a no go for lunch. And that's because there's so much on the line. If we give a go and everything is not perfect, Curiosity doesn't get to the planet. And you have just now pretty much destroyed any opportunity to confirm whatever Curiosity was going to discover. And here we are ten years later, and everything had to go right. Everything had to go right. Everything.

This is definitely not the Elon Musk theory of management.

No, everything has to go right. And part of it too is that your tax dollars at work. And you want to make sure that that investment is well worth what we said it was going to do. And our team, you know, we were the bridge from Earth to space. So getting it off the planet, that was our job. Separating the spacecraft in its right point for the trajectory once it left Earth on its way to Mars. If we didn't insert it in that right point, there were correction maneuvers that they were going to have to do before they landed on the planet. So yes, it had to be right as A matter of fact, we were two years later than the original launch date. So we have to take those gambles. They had to take those chances. So. Yes.

Can you just give us some idea of the scale of what it takes to send Curiosity to Mars? You know, I've been involved with the launch of Macintosh, which is like probably on a scale of 1 to 10 compared to curiosity is like a negative one. How many people are involved, how much money's involved? Just give us an idea of the scale of what it takes.

Okay, so the scale is 50 years long, because when you think about it, you're going all the way back to Mariner. So you got Mariner, and then you have the Viking landers, which prove that you can actually touch the surface. And then you have Sojourner that you can move around, which was in the early 90s. So by the time you get to Curiosity, when you're talking about the scale and what it takes to get to something like that, there's a long history that gets you to the point where you can send something the size of a small car to another planet and expect it to maneuver. And in the case of Curiosity, we're even beyond solar power. We're using nuclear power to help provide and recharge the battery that's on board. So it's even a larger scale on so many levels. And my role as mission managers, making sure that whatever happened during the launch environment, making sure that the integration that's required for setting the spacecraft and the launch field together and then making sure trajectory wise, we are sending you and putting you on the right path. It's a lot that's involved in it. And the teams are huge. I mean, just from our Kennedy Space center side of the house, we had about 200 people involved in different aspects of it. But then that doesn't count. The large team that was at jpl, responsible for actually developing and building the rover itself, the team from Lockheed Martin for their role with the heat shield and the encapsulation, the role for ULA for putting their rocket together. So it's a huge team. It's a lot that's required to bring all of that together. And it's exciting when you get to console and that day that it's ready for liftoff. And just because it clears the tower, that's just one part of it. But it's the successful separation from the launch vehicle that's another piece of it. And then you have the journey. And then, of course, that famous, you know, seven minutes of terror for it actually to get to the Martian surface and land there. A lot involved. But once it's behind you, you're like, wow, okay, that's good. Let's get on to the next one.

How do you test something like this? I mean, are you firing rockets at JPL all the time? And listen, I'm pretty technical, but I have a hard time wrapping my head around how something like this is done. You don't go and just spend 50 million bucks to shoot off a rocket booster just to see if it'll. I mean, I don't like, that's how ignorant I am.

And again, I will go back to the more than 50 year history of getting to Mars. And each step is incremental. You, you're building off of the success of the prior missions. And so, for example, the Atlas V launch vehicle that we used for that mission, it's a heritage of the prior pedigree of Atlas launch vehicles that were in place. And so when you're getting ready for a mission like Mars, the trajectory that you used, you're refining something that was used. You had the opportunity and spirit missions that served as predecessor rovers for it. So as you're wrapping your head around it, you just kind of have to appreciate the fact that each time you're just building on the success of the predecessor mission. Kind of like in life you do it better than the next generation, hopefully, but you're just learning from the successes and you move forward.

So going back in time to 1994, how did you get the job at NASA?

So it wasn't anything that I was pursuing. As a matter of fact, I was working with an electrical contractor here in Atlanta and was ready for a change.

Wait, wait, stop right there. When you say electrical contractor, are you saying like someone who puts light switches in a house? Are you talking about electrical engineering?

No, I'm actually talking about. I was a project manager with an electrical contractor. We did commercial facilities, so we were putting wires in renovated buildings.

Oh my God.

Helping to modify some of the signals in transit stations here. So from that perspective, it was the hard hat and the steel toe boots as a project manager. So I was not actually doing that, but I was telling the people who were what to do, if that makes sense.

Okay, so now how did you get from that to NASA?

So from that to NASA, yeah, it is a huge leap. But I recently finished grad school at Georgia Tech and so wanted to try my hands at the hands on world and started just floating my resume out. And good friend knew some people down at the Space Center Passed my resume along. And when they took a look at it, I got a phone call asking, when would you like to start? And my first response was, wait, I don't know about rocket science. They said, that's fine. Based on your resume, you can easily learn about it. Come on down and join us. So October of 1994, I packed my stuff up and headed down to Kennedy Space center to start working with the International Space Station program and the ground processing group there at Kennedy Space Center. So that was the start. It was a huge change. It was a big shift. But it was one of those things where NASA came in. I don't say they knocked on my door, but I wasn't running to their door because I sent in my information and didn't follow up and got a phone call that said, didn't you get the information we sent? Would you please go ahead and follow up? So I did, and the rest is, sorry. So I look at it as a blessing. It was just one of those things. I have this philosophy in life where each opportunity that comes along just prepares you for what's next. And you never really know truly what is next, but if you just take advantage of the opportunities that you have. So my work with the electrical contractor gave me some great project management skills which were easily transferable to the role that I inherited when I started with NASA. And my work in the International Space Station program gave me opportunities to work with engineers not just domestically, but the name international. I had a chance to work with engineers over in Italy for the component of the space station that they were responsible for. And those skills were transferred and found, you know, provided an opportunity to change and join our Launch Services program, which was responsible for sending spacecraft, rovers and other satellites to orbit. And that path led to opportunities to work with JPL on the Mars Science Laboratory. And the rest is history. So it goes back to that. Each experience, each opportunity just builds on the success of what happened before. And you just keep going. Which is what threw me into the classroom, which is another. You talk about a huge leap from electrical contractor to NASA. Well, it's even a larger leap to go from NASA to the classroom, where kids are looking at you like, why in the world are you here? And why did you leave that kind of job? And from my perspective, I jokingly tell them they're going to be the future taxpayers. And I can't complain about you if I don't do anything to solve the problem. But the reality, you know, I want to contribute. I want to push that next generation. I had A great time on my career. But, you know, it's time for somebody else to take that position. And so I want to be a part of the foundation development for our 21st century leaders that are going to move us forward.

Oh, my God, Wanda, my head is exploding. I thought you're going to tell me some story about, you know, you had two strikes against you. You're a woman and you're black and you had to overcome prejudice and there were 200 white people in front of you, but you clawed your way to the top and you're telling all you have to do is answer the phone.

Well, for that case, I did. I had to answer the phone. And I hear what you're saying, and I've had people to ask me about that before. And it was one of those things when I started working with NASA, yes, it was very obvious. You're looking around the office and you're like, there are not a lot of people that look like me. But you can either spend your time looking at that and wondering, or you can just jump right in and do your job and have fun while you're doing it. And so that's what I did. I knew that I was qualified, had degrees in engineering from Hampton University and Georgia Tech, had the experience with project management. And like everyone else there, you're learning on the job as you go because you're doing something that's different and unique and just having fun with it. And to say that I didn't have any issues where I thought maybe I might be held back because I'm a woman or because I'm black, but. But like I said, you can either dwell on it or you can just dive in and do what you gotta do. And that's what I chose to do. Dive in and do what I gotta do.

And one of. Do you have to get over imposter syndrome? What am I doing? Last week I was at Home Depot getting 220 volt switches, and this week I'm at NASA. Or did you just hit the ground running?

I had to hit the ground running. And that's because, as I mentioned before, I accept that every new opportunity that comes is because I was being prepared for it in the previous scenario. And so the term imposter syndrome is something actually my nephew introduced me to not too long ago. And I had him to explain what exactly is that? And yes, sometimes you do get into that situation. How did I end up here? And from my perspective, I look at it as I'm here because I was blessed. God opened up an opportunity. Boom. I took it, and I ran with it. You dive into it. The things you don't know, you spend some time learning about it. I was blessed to have quite a few good mentors. And I will have to admit, all of my mentors look nothing like me. And that was something I had to get over because I thought, you know, in a lot of cases, that would not be the scenario, but the people that, you know, identified and said, hey, Wanda, I think I want you to come join this team. My boss, and I'll just throw his name out there. Ray Lugo was one of the biggest advocates that I. That I had looked nothing like me, but he saw something, fortunately, in me that I didn't see in myself and provided just the encouragement that I needed to move forward. And that's when I realized, you can't use your skin color as a barrier. I ended up being asked to be mentored by people that didn't look like me. And I appreciated that, because then you just start to appreciate people as people. Kind of get beyond the exterior and just say, hey, let's see how we can work together and make this happen.

I have to ask, was there a convenient woman's restroom in 1984? Did you have to go to another building?

So I always tell people, read the book. Hollywood does its thing, and they have to, because otherwise the story is a little bit more boring than perceived. But, no, to their credit, those who were working at Langley, they did experience a separate lunch cafeteria in that case. And when you consider, you know, the fact that we were in the south, when you talk about Texas, you talk about Stennis in Louisiana, you talk about Florida, which they do have the Confederate flags hidden behind Mickey's ears in the palm trees. But it was one of those cases where the one thing I do appreciate that they portrayed in the movie was that they were competent and they were skilled and they knew what they were doing despite the obstacles that may have been put in their way. And so capturing that history, the scene where he's tearing down the sign with the sledgehammer for the bathroom is like, okay, yeah, that. That's Hollywood. It's dramatic. We get that. But I think the biggest obstacle was just having the buy in that people could be competent. That didn't look like you. And that was probably the biggest message to come out of the film.

But did you have to overcome that, too?

I think I had to overcome it less because by the 90s, there were enough trailblazers who had proven that you didn't have to Question or doubt the competence of your co workers. Now, for me to sit up here and say there probably were people who never had any doubts would be fooling myself. But I will say I did have a co worker at one point that told me, whoa, you have a degree from Georgia Tech, you must be okay. Which means that for people who didn't know about the degree for Georgia Tech, I don't know what may have been running through their minds. And I did have coworkers, you know, at Kennedy, who were there in the 70s and in the 60s, and they did have some unfavorable experiences. But by the time I came along, fortunately, you know, we were beyond that. And. And so I had less of that to deal with.

So now, looking back, advice for young people, how did you rise to the position of mission manager? What did it take?

So, looking at advice for young people, the rise to mission manager, what does it take? It takes courage, willingness to accept assignments as they come, because you never know who's watching. And by that, in some cases, the assignment may be very mundane. Data collection or serving on a team that may have nothing to do with the mission you're working on. But being willing to take those extra assignments is a plus, believing that you are still someone who can learn and does not mind learning. The biggest thing I always tell people also is teamwork. If you can work with the worst of people, you can work with the best of people. That allows you to move forward. It goes back to, you never really know who is watching you, because in most cases, you'll end up getting an invitation as opposed to having to scramble to compete for a position. And to be perfectly honest, that is what happened in my case. It was not so much that I ran and said, hey, I want to go and do this, but it was, we've observed your work. We see what you can do. We'd like to give it a try, have you come join the team and see how you like it, and you do it. You work with the people, you learn as much as you can. You are not arrogant about it. They recognize you're willing to learn, you're cooperative, and it just goes from there. And I guess the most important part is having fun with it. If you can enjoy what you're doing and you're having fun with it, then you're definitely going to rise.

Kind of question from left field. So how did your work at NASA affect your belief in God?

So my belief in God was solid before NASA, and it remains so after. And the one change that NASA brought About was the opportunity to see from a perspective that I probably would not have being a civilian, is the insight on not only the missions, but, but meeting the people that are behind the mission and just understanding the types of questions that they're asking that would drive them to go off and do the type of research that they did. And as I became exposed to what they were discovering, reading the reports that were published, my faith, I guess it grew in some cases, because what we take for granted and what we think we understand. But as we start to learn more, I'm more convinced that there had to be a creator behind everything that we see. And I don't see the science as a way of discrediting a creator. I just really see it more as a way of crediting a creator. Because it's organized, it makes sense. And the more we discover, the more questions we start to ask and the answers that we get as we start to discover more, it just reveals some sense of awe, if I guess that's probably the best word that I can put there. It reveals a sense of awe that makes you go, there's has to be a point to this. It's. There has to be a point. There has to be a point.

Going off in a different tangent here, based on the last few weeks of Elon and Twitter, kind of changes my perspective, but from the outside looking in, so you realize how little I know about space and space travel. But cutting to the tastes, the question is, is SpaceX a big deal? Is like Elon Musk showing NASA and the US Government how to do things better? Like we can do reusable rockets? Why come you never did reusable rockets? How do I interpret SpaceX?

So to be perfectly honest, a lot of us were very excited about SpaceX. And the reason I say that is one of the things that our government does is it wants to foster industry, it wants to foster commercialization. And for the launch industry, for so long there had not been that commercialization, that commercial competition. And what Elon did with SpaceX was provided and opened the door for a commercial, a more commercialized approach for access to space. And by the Falcon 9, providing competition for the at the time Delta launch vehicle or even our Atlas V launch vehicles, it was actually very welcomed. And even when you think about access to the International Space Station, outside of the Russians, our space shuttle, those were the only two nations and only two vehicles, the Soyuz and our shuttle, to access International Space Station, which meant in 2011, when we ended, and I keep saying we, I'm not with NASA anymore, but it's an old habit. But when we ended the space shuttle program in 2011, our only access to the International Space Station was through the Russians. And so from that perspective with SpaceX being able to provide that access to the space station, it was great. It said, hey, look, we've been wanting this commercialization to open it up. And SpaceX demonstrated that it could be done. It could be done. So that's my take from being on the other side was, hey, yes, it was welcomed. It was welcomed. It was what we wanted. It was a part of expanding the scope of space.

I must admit, I never expected that answer to like, after this interview, Wanda, I'm left to put my brain back in my head because my head is exploding with your answers here.

I guess that's the interesting thing. Now that I am a schoolteacher and observing what's happening in the space industry from the other side, having seen and understood some of the paths and the journeys example, even with the most recent Artemis 1 launch that happened within the past week, it was exciting. A lot of people were curious when they made the big announcement and had all of the social media people coming out getting ready for the Artemis launch and then they had to end up scrubbing it. And I had some friends to ask me, were you surprised about the scrub? And I was like, absolutely not. Because the last thing you want to do is is issue a go when you know everything is not 100%. And so it was a relief actually that they had to scrub the first few attempts because it was reassuring that you know what quality is important and because eventually they are planning to put humans on that vehicle. You want to make sure that you have checked off every system and everything is functioning as it should. Because the stakes get higher when you start to put people on there. The most precious of cargo that you could ever send up.

There's never moments like Joe Biden or George Bush or Barack Obama, he needs a win. We gotta launch this week. Because that's like your mission manager, you don't give a shit about all that. Just like it's either perfect or it's not.

I don't give a damn about anything else. It's got to be right. And it's, you know, a lot of people wonder, it's like, how risk averse do you need to be in order to be successful? The stakes are high. You make those calls. And that's part of, I said, you know, before you get to the countdown, there's a lot that happens and a lot of decisions that are made that we had to even make when it came to integrating the spacecraft with the launch vehicle. There were some issues that we had to resolve before even ULA said, hey, you've got to get this straight before we'll even go forward with the integration. And you have to take it seriously. Yes, there is a schedule, there is a budget, but you have to weigh. There's probably more to lose with an unsuccessful mission than there is without, if that makes any sense. And so you. 99.9%. Okay, we can. We're good. But if it's 80%. No, let's go back. Let's get it right. We've got to get it right. There's more at stake for a successful mission than an unsuccessful.

Yeah, so I'm sorry, can you tell me so. Not at all. Don't apologize. So, Wanda, do you think that humans will be living on Mars at some point? Well, some point is a long time. But, like, why? Why are we trying to. Or are we trying to live on Mars? I mean, what's the plan here? I don't understand. Like, why don't we just fix the Earth? Isn't that easier?

I think that question is probably age old. Why are we trying to get to Mars? What's the big deal? What's wrong with Earth? And I have two answers for it. The first one is because it's like a really cool thing to just go off and try to do. But the second one goes back to. I call it the big question that David had back in Psalm 8. It's like, you know, when I look up there and I see everything, you know, what is. What is man? And sometimes I believe it's hard for us to believe that we're special created beings. And we're in search of an answer that tells us we're not special, if that makes sense. Now I'm going off into another tangent. But anyway, the reason I say that is because if we're not special, if we're not exceptional, then I don't have to believe that my life is purposeful. Because I can look off and say, well, there's nothing special about Earth. I can go colonize Mars. Why am I just limited to Earth? And all of the money that we're spending and the great research that we're doing just to prove that Mars is habitable is answering a big question. Why is Earth the only place that I know of in our solar system that I can go outside and not have to wear a spacesuit? What makes it so special? Why. Why here? Why Us. And so, yes, I do think that at some point, we will send a human expedition to Mars. And what will they do? They'll replicate everything here on Earth.

Really?

That's all we know when we're looking for. What is it that we need to survive? You think about the movie the Martian. He needed food, so he ends up doing what? Creating a garden. Yes. You could do in your backyard. I need the oxygen to breathe. I need companionship. So, you know, everything. All of the conveniences that you have here on Earth, when you go to colonize another place, you're basically replicating those comforts and those conveniences just so that I can survive. And not that I oppose the exploration. I think it'll be interesting for those that are brave enough to go and take that journey. But when you boil it down, we have the best of everything right here.

More pieces of my brain just left my skull. But no, you know, you brought up a interesting point here. So someone like you reads or watches the Martian. You know, the book. Is it like, yeah, like you're. You are showing how sexy and interesting this is, or is like, oh, my God, they got so many things wrong.

It's a combination of things. And it. I love the fact that Hollywood is not afraid to combine imagination with fact. And the reality is innovation is that as well. It's combining imagination with fact and saying, hey, we can do something a little different in some regards. You're watching the movie, like, yeah, that could never happen, but it's still fun. It's fun, it's creative. And if you're focused on trying to influence a new generation, you've now planted something new in their mind for them to go off and think about and say, well, just because they said it couldn't happen, does that really mean it can't happen? Let me see what I can do to change that.

There's been movies made about Steve Jobs and Apple, and I've not watched any of them because.

Why not?

One is ptsd, but the other.

Okay, okay, okay.

But. But the other is I know they're gonna get stuff so wrong, and that'll just aggravate me. So, anyway, well.

And that's. But I'll interrupt you because that's the way I felt about the movie Hidden Figures. Like I said, the biggest message that personally I wanted people to get out of it was, fortunately, you can now see that competence is not limited to one skin tone. It's not limited to one gender. Big message. The rest of the movie I enjoyed, but I was also cringing because, like, that's not what was in the book, and that's not the reality, but it's good for Hollywood. And anybody that asked me about the movie, my first response was, it was cool. But read the book. Get the facts. Get the facts.

So you touched on this before, but now I want to ask you directly. So, you know, you're at the end of your career at NASA, and you go and you decide to become a teacher as opposed to going to work probably for a lot of money at one of these contractors. So what was that decision process?

So, believe it or not, it was actually me following through on a commitment that I made in undergrad. My favorite professor at Hampton was a retired IBM engineer. And. And I love the fact that he came to the classroom with an abundance of credibility. And teaching was something that I always wanted to do, but I said I wanted to be like Mr. Jenkins. I wanted to come in my classroom with experience. And so my initial plan was to work for NASA for, like, three to five years and return to Georgia and become a teacher. But I was having too much fun. And that three to five years turned to 10, turned to 15, 20. And I realized that if I was going to go in the classroom, I better do it quickly before I change my mind. And an opportunity came up through the Woodrow Wilson Teaching Fellowship Program, where they were actually looking for STEM professionals to transition from their careers into the classroom. But the target was urban school districts and providing that face, providing that experience, that exposure to a different set of students to see if, you know, you could still gin up that interest in stem. And for me, it was the perfect bridge out of NASA and into the classroom. And I had to do it before I changed my mind. But looking back. Yeah, looking back, there are no regrets. The only time I do think about it is often because I still have students that will ask me, why did you leave? And when I tell them, it's because I do believe in them and I want to contribute to their future, their response is usually like, yeah, right. Okay. They don't believe it. And that's. That part is because I know why I'm there, and it's intentional. And when I have a student that I'm at a point now where students that I've worked with have graduated high school and they're now in college, and when they can come back and thank me for being there, taking an interest, providing some additional insights or new insights, then for me, that's worth it.

So that is a beautiful answer. You're teaching math, right?

I am Teaching math this year? Yes.

So how is math being taught where you are and how do you think math should be taught? Because this is a very hot topic these days about the U.S. ranking in math tests and should it be taught this way and whoever is going to use calculus, etc, etc. So talk to me about how you think math should be taught.

So the first part of that question is, and I always, I laugh. Not really, but I do. I kind of laugh sometimes at people who propose different ways for teaching math because they are the ones who learned the traditional way and they've mastered it. And so it's a matter of how do you take the best out of what worked well for you and then diminish what often causes people to be afraid of math? And I think part of it has to do with how we have not really confessed the reality that math is like a language. It's a language, and for anyone who does physics or science, they can appreciate when I say math is the language of science. And so I think if we are honest with ourselves and try the approach of teaching it within the context of its application, that it may carry over better a little differently, as opposed to just an isolated stovepipe approach of saying, okay, well, this is algebra and this is algebra 2, and this is precalculus, this is calculus, and not really presenting it in its integrated form. The theorists would probably not appreciate what I'm saying because they look at math a little bit differently. But for those who apply it, I think that's one of the things that Covid has forced a lot of us to do is to revisit education, the approach, what's really important, and how do we best make that integration with our students? So that's one of the things that I want to make sure that I do is that they're seeing how the concepts are helping us to communicate as opposed to just learning the concepts in isolation, if that makes sense.

Up next on Remarkable People.

With this next generation, what we're trying to get them to appreciate and to understand is you have the opportunities that three generations ago didn't exist. And so be a part of the solution, and that's why I'm in the classroom, is to help them equip themselves, get the foundation so that as the opportunities come, you're prepared to take your place in leadership and move us to where we need to be.

Want to know when there's a new episode of remarkable people? Simply text 831-609-0628 if you live in the US or Canada, don't miss upcoming shows. Take a moment to follow remarkable people in your app or podcast player. Welcome back to Remarkable People with Guy Kawasaki. What does it mean to a black kid that two black men are running for US Senate in Georgia?

You probably have to ask a black kid. But I will say that not since Reconstruction would you have that kind of scenario. But the irony of it, and you know, the interesting historical piece of it, is that both of them, to their own merit, have a link to history that is unique and significant. In the case of Raphael Warnock, his link to Ebenezer Morehouse and Martin Luther King is one trajectory. But then to Herschel Walker, where from the sports arena, the Heisman Club is such an exclusive group, athletes and men, that they're both been recognized as being at the top of their respected careers, if you will. But when it comes to politics or who to best serve, this generation has probably seen more of a diverse. And when you think about my students as ninth graders who were born in 2008, which means that they grew up only knowing Barack Obama as the first president of memory for them. So to see two black men in Georgia running for Senate, okay, no big deal. We had a black man as a president for that generation. And that's the way we have to start thinking now is for that generation, it's normal, it's not an anomaly.

But wouldn't you say that in the past six years it seems like we're proving that we're a racist country? Or do you think I'm overblowing?

No, in the past six years, we haven't proved that we're a racist country. In the past six years, we've just more exposed the reality, if that makes sense. So it's not that there's something new or some breathtaking, earth shattering revelation that is out there. It's now that social media, we now have instant access to everything that's out there. We're just having to come to terms with it in a different way. And by different way we're talking about, you know, we're just really 55, 56 years removed from John F. Kennedy, Lyndon Johnson, Martin Luther King being alive and going through the whole Civil Rights act of 65 and all of that and the issues that they were trying to resolve then we've made progress on. But I would dare say within the past six years, what we've probably exposed is that there's another aspect that we, and I heard it on one of your other podcasts, I'm going to just point that out. But America's Caste system blended with racism has just become a little bit more exposed now. And so again, the mere fact that we have the two black gentlemen running for U.S. senate, they're not the first to have run, but they are the first to have made it as far as they have Warnock being the first to actually be elected to that position. But with this next generation, what we're trying to get them to appreciate and to understand is you have the opportunities that three generations ago didn't exist. And so be a part of the solution, and that's why I'm in the classroom, is to help them equip themselves, get a foundation so that as the opportunities come, you're prepared to take your place in leadership and move us to where we need to be.

And what is your interpretation of Stacey Abrams not winning? Because I'll tell you, if somebody said to me, guy, I'm going to give you a silver bullet, you can have anybody you want on your podcast. Anybody alive anyway, right? Michelle Obama, Barack Obama, Tom Brady. I don't want Tom Brady. And if somebody said, you know, you could have anybody, Greta Thunberg, anybody, I would say Stacey Abrams. She would be my number one pick. So I don't even know how to wrap my mind around the fact that she lost.

And I would agree with you. She would be an excellent, remarkable person. Incredible story that she has and quite the inspiration because she's an HBCU grad from Spelman right here in Atlanta. And she was able to garner great attention even though she had also served in our statewide legislature and pursuing the opportunity to take the helm. And it's just opened up the doors and the opportunities for others to say, hey, you know what? It's possible for me and you go back to that generation again of what has become normal for them to see starting, like I said, Born in 2008, my ninth graders, seeing a Barack Obama in the White House, being able to see a woman like Stacey Abrams take it as far as she did for the campaign, the upcoming elections that we have now. America still has a lot of growing to do, a lot of growing up to do, but I think I keep going back. We're putting a lot on this next generation. But I think the 21st century holds some wonderful promises if we prepare them to take the challenges head on.

And you, Wanda Harding, are doing that. One classroom at a time. That's what it's going to take, right?

That's what it has to take. One classroom at a time. One classroom, one smile, one student at a time.

And 20 or 30 years from now, somebody is going to be interviewing somebody and they're going to say, I had a teacher named Wanda Harding, and she taught me how I could accomplish whatever I wanted to accomplish. You're going to inspire a lot of people, Wanda.

Truly, that is my genuine prayer. I just want to be an inspiration. I want to point people in a direction where the encouragement that was provided to me as a youngster, the nurturing that I received, I just want to be a part of giving that to the next generation. And from Atlanta to Mars, back to Atlanta to whatever is next, that's what I want to leave to that next generation.

To put it mildly, this interview did not go as I expected.

Some new thoughts, some new ideas hopefully came to mind.

No, I'm not expressing disappointment. I am just thrilled at the diversity of your answers. Wow.

That's life, right? That's the way life sometimes comes at you. It's the unexpected. And when you're looking at different perspectives, you're never really quite sure what is on the other side until you flip that coin over and you're like, oh, wow, okay, I hadn't thought about it that way, but now I can.

Are you, like always, this positive and uplifting? You ever have down moments?

Because of course I have down moments. Human.

She's the most positive person we've ever had on this podcast.

Of course I've had down moments. But life is too short to dwell in an abundance of down moments. People are counting on you. When I say people are counting on you every encounter that you make. I have an uncle that used to walk around and say, there's something eternal about every moment. So you don't know what kind of impact you're making. You just need to make sure it's a good one. When all is said and done, man.

Well, Wikipedia's entry for optimism. They should show a picture of you. My goodness. And there you have it, folks, a remarkable conversation with Wanda Harding. From her journey as a NASA engineer and rocket scientist to her current role as an inspiring teacher and authority, Wanda is truly a shining example of what can be achieved when we pursue our interests and passions and use our skills to the fullest. Thank you, Wanda, for joining us today and sharing your remarkable story. Remember to tune in next week for another exciting episode of Remarkable People. Until then, keep reaching for the stars. And speaking of stars, my thanks to the stars of the Remarkable People team, Jeff C, Peg Fitzpatrick, Shannon Hernandez, Madison Nismer, Luis Magana and Alexis Nishimura. Until next time, mahalo and aloha. This is remarkable people.