Be Different to Make a Difference with Tayo Rockson | Ep. 137

Hello, welcome back to the Holistic Inner Balance podcast. We are here today with such an amazing guest who we are obsessed with, Tayo Roxon, who is the author of Use Your Difference to Make a Difference. And has a number of TED Talks, has a podcast with over 700 episodes. He's really incredible, just prolific in his writing and his speaking and all the things. And we are today talking about identity, and we are talking about inclusion and Diversity, and really getting like digging into all of these things and how it can impact our mental health as individuals and then also as collectives, as, you know, different institutions, different educational systems, wherever you are in a workplace or just in family systems. And we are going to dive into all of that today.

Let me tell you a little bit about your new favorite human being, all y'all. So This is, uh, out of his book. This is his bio, and there are so many more things that we could say, but I want you guys to be able to get to the episode while you're like doing life. And so, Tayo Roxon, he's the CEO of UID Management, a strategic leadership and consulting firm that helps corporations improve their bottom line by incorporating diversity, inclusion, and social justice strategies. He is an authority on cross-cultural competencies and international branding strategy. And as Hadlee said, he hosts the popular cross-cultural podcast called As Told by Nomads, and he's been featured in media outlets around the world, including where I got to meet him on Tamron Hall. And I'm telling you, we get into a really, really great conversation. Some, some highlights is no one person has one identity. We get into perfectionism is its own system of oppression. We talk about our non-negotiables. We talk about truth. We talk about business and sour gummies. So—

We talk about sour gummies for a while. You'll love it. Facts. We also talk about our favorite word, which is nuance. So we go deep into, into all of that. And, um, yeah, it's really, it's really good, you guys. You're gonna love it.

Are you ready to jump in?

Let's do it.

Hello, Tayo. Meet my good friend Hadlee. She's my Uh, co-host here at Holistic Inner Balance, and Hadlee, meet Tayo. I feel like kindred spirit. We met in the most beautiful, fun way. We got to do Tamarin Hall together.

We did.

That's so cool.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was a fun experience. So it was, it was good. How have you felt since then, by the way?

So grateful. So grateful. I've been— it was really fun when the She launched, I think, like 3 little excerpts about it, and then my book went to number 1 for anxiety and phobias. And so it was really fun and exciting. And this is like a masterpiece.

Oh my gosh, you're way too kind. Um, way too kind.

It's so good.

It's so good.

Ah, well, thank you both.

I've been loving it. I've been— I'm not fully— I'm not fully through it all yet, but I've been loving it. And I've been also binge listening to your podcast as well.

Yes.

Which is fabulous.

Well, thank you. I'm pivoting soon. I, you know, so because it's like every time you need a new direction, and I— that was, was 2012. So 14. Yeah, almost 10 years of my life. Um, and so I got it.

Wow.

Yeah, I was getting drained and burnt out and all those things, and I was like, I need to honor my current self. So it'd be interesting. Yeah. And I, I started your book, but I'm gonna— I'm still going through it. So I love the tips. You have so much information, so I feel like I have to take notes every time. Like, okay.

Oh yeah.

I didn't know that. I didn't know that. I know. So

yeah, it can be anxiety-provoking just to look at it. It's like when it came, when I got my first edited draft of like the book, you know, they sent out the preorder books. I was like, this is a beast. This is like a tome.

I— so because I read it like via PDF, like—

Oh, you did?

So I did before, before it was published. And so when I got the book in the mail, I was like, damn, this is why it took me so long to read.

That's amazing. So how do you two know each other?

We met through mutual friends.

Yeah, yeah, we met— we like e-met through a mutual friend, and we were e-friends for like a year almost, I think. And then we finally met in person because we're both, um, well, I'm from Michigan and Nicole lives there now. So

I'm in Michigan. Yeah,

so

we just like cackled like lunatics the entire time we hung out together.

Understandable.

Which is, which is the promise of a great friendship.

Yeah, yeah, lunatics being the bond. Everyone's crazy.

Exactly. This is— and we're like, let's just record our lunacy and make a podcast. So it's just like an outlet for our fun friendship. And

yes,

it's great.

I love it, I love it. That's good, it's good.

How have you done since Since we were together last. So this was October, right, when the show was recorded?

Yeah, it was October. It came out the 29th. My birthday was the next day. Uh, there was the elections. Um, and then—

Yeah, yikes.

Yeah, that—

it was just not a great time to have a birthday.

Yeah, I know, it was just— and then, uh, yeah, just been preparing. I'm from Nigeria, as you all know, so I'm going there in like less than 2 weeks. So I've been planning and then pivoting as well, because the current administration or the next administration is not going to be a fan of a lot of my work. And so it's about working with people in my circle to figure out how to repackage it in a way that's, I guess, more palatable for audiences. But yeah, you know.

Yeah.

Just figuring out that. But yeah.

I'm in awe of you. Seriously.

Everything.

Literally, I'm like— because I've been having these conversations with people after the election, and it's just like, what do we do? What do we do? And you are the leader. And it is really—

We don't know what to do. But to your point, a lot of what you wrote in the book and what you believe as well, Hadlee, is I've had to figure out how to ground myself. Not try and be thinking about the forward and the worst possible outcomes. But, you know, totally sure it's gonna make a good story someday.

I kind of want to expand on that. It's with this podcast, by the way, we just hit the ground running and we just go. It's super informal. And so I'm curious about the idea of the pivot and how do we find, and how are you figuring it out as you go, the, the nuance between I'm pivoting and I'm almost compromising or sacrificing my voice and my truth and my message in maybe a fawning way, as opposed to pivoting in a way that feels more authentic, more empowered, and also perhaps more palatable for the audience that you're trying to target. Like, how are you— how are you doing that?

Well, the first part for me is just to remember the big picture. So I created this big picture architect for myself. And I was like, okay, you want to ensure that people effectively know how to connect across cultures and are eternally curious so that they are, you know, recognizing what each person needs to succeed, right? That is something that we have struggled with throughout civilization. It's the reason for a lot of the wars we've had. People couldn't agree on a certain religion or a certain idea or a certain law, and then— And so, okay, That's the big picture. Then you start creating your list of non-negotiables. All right. Are you willing to water down your message for profit? And, you know, I don't feel good about that. So I'm like, no. If someone tells me that I have to, you know, edit out certain words that will benefit the people that I want to be seen, I'm like, all right, can't do that. And so you start going down through that list. And then you have to look at yourself and then There's a forgiveness that has to happen because a lot of my work is mission-based. And I keep thinking, okay, and I work in this with my therapist, am I doing— am I sacrificing or am I going away from what I believe to be true just so I can fit in or go along? And then it's about figuring out what the truth of that is versus what you think the truth is. And so somewhere in between, I start working. Along the way. So I have my non-negotiables, I have the big picture, and then I understand, all right, at the core of what I want to do is to make sure I continue to study humans and how and why they behave the way they behave. It doesn't matter what administration exists. We always will be eternally curious. Teams will— companies will want to know how teams work together from different backgrounds. People want to know how to negotiate certain strategies. people in relationships who want to know how to deal across certain dynamics. And so start talking about it in those ways. And they're like, all right, I feel better about myself. Right? It's like that, the peaks and the valleys of that. But yeah, that's how I've gone about it, at least.

I love that. And just thinking about your book, I love that in your book, you talk about the— obviously, we talk about like, bias and, and identifying your internal bias and all of that. But you also identify, which I don't see talked about as much, you identify your core values.

Yes.

So it's like, these are the things that I'm not willing to compromise. So like, that takes it to a whole new level, I think.

No, it does, Hadley, because I, even when I'm teaching my students, I sometimes I'll just ask them randomly, hey, can you tell me what your 5 core values are? And almost, I don't know, there are very few people in the world that can actually tell you that off the top of your head. And I always say that that's an indicator that you're not living life intentionally, you're only reacting, you know. And I feel like we live in this reactive world as opposed to reflective world. And so those core values, I feel like, are things that help us move away from performative actions, uh, but they also help us ask those deep, deep questions. You know, I'm sure many of us have been in toxic relationships, or many of us have had to set boundaries along the way. We lost sight of a value or two, and then we just sort of accepted things that never really resonate with who we truly wanted to be, right? Yeah. So who you are, who you think you want to be, and who you want to be— you keep going along that path, and it's like, uh, cyclical.

Who do you— who do you want to be?

Well, I, I want to be remembered as someone who eternally brought smiles to people because of how much I reminded them of their potential. And I also want to be, you know, remembered as someone who opened the path for previously unrecognized cultures. And so it's a big ask, right? But the, the, the reason I like setting goals so big like that is that even if I don't achieve them, you end up growing into someone that could achieve them. So along the way, you know, you stumble across a couple of stars on the way to the moon. And I'm like, all right, you know, something happened. Or you inspire the next person to take the baton from you. And then that person, you know, does something. And yeah, so—

That is such a great answer. I love that.

Oh, thank you.

Hadlee, who do you want to be?

Yeah. I

want to know what's going on in your head.

Well, I want to be someone who helps people uncover their capacity to be able to make the changes that they want to make in the world and have the kind of energy that they, that they need in order to, like, fully realize their full potential. And, and, and put forward, like, move forward the causes that they care about. That's the thing that I'm like most, most passionate about is helping people actually have the capacity to do that. Because there's a lot of burnout. There's a lot of—

Oh my gosh.

Yeah.

That's amazing, Hadlee. Yeah, but we got to turn it back to you.

Yeah.

But that's amazing, Hadlee, the capacity.

Yeah.

Yeah, I love that.

The capacity. Like, it's so empowering. It's like giving people the bandwidth, the capacity. And I feel like you both have that too, because it's like reminding people of their potential, opening up pathways for previously unrecognized cultures, and then helping uncover capacity, realize your full potential. So I feel like you two have like, it's like running in similar shooting star streams. I love that. Mine, mine I borrow from this writer Samuel Hahnemann, who wrote this in the 1800s. And it was the goal of the doctor. And when I read this, I was like, doctors could do this? This is a thing? It doesn't— what? That's not my experience. And so what— his name is Samuel Hahnemann. And what he says is the, the role of a doctor Is to help a person heal themselves in such a way that they are able to use their vessel to obtain the lofty purposes, meanings, and goals of their place on Earth in such a way that obliges wonderment by those looking on.

Wow.

I love that one. Obliging wonderment.

Obliges wonderment. So basically, like, the TL;DR, because I'm, like, trying to figure out my own way of wording this. Basically, I want to help people show up as their total true selves in a way that everyone looking at them is like, what the hell is that? And how do I get it?

Yes, it's incredible, because we have like a through line here, this capacity, showing up as yourself, you know, creating space for people that don't normally feel seen. And it's, you know, at the end of the day, I think that's the ultimate human experience where Yeah. I think at our core, we all want to feel seen, recognized for who we are, you know. And sometimes we— not sometimes, a lot of times we wear all these masks, right? Um, you know, willingly or unwillingly and, uh, consciously or unconsciously. But what you're saying, what Hadlee's saying, is giving people permission to be themselves and to even become their best selves by daring to do the thing that, uh, people may have told them they couldn't, or they have told themselves they couldn't.

So in this process, you talked about who you were, who you are, who you want to become. Do you mind sharing with us your story?

Absolutely. So yeah, I was born in Nigeria. I, you know, I ended up growing up in 5 countries and 4 continents by the time I was 17. But, you know, born in Nigeria at a crossroads. Nigeria is at a crossroads. We are Experiencing a series of military dictatorships, I spent the first ten years of my life in and out of three military regimes, and two of them were just these heinous dictatorships. And in between, my pops is diplomat, so we make a pivot to Sweden for two years when I'm one years old, and my middle brother is born there. But we're going back, and the chaos around me, I'm starting to know now, you know, manifests itself in in an interesting way where you you mute yourself, right? You have to watch. What you say so you can come back home. You don't know who you're going to offend because, again, it's a military dictatorship. So you got to make sure you're not saying things that could be whispered up to the powers that may be. And then we transitioned to civilian rule in '99. And my father's job as a diplomat begins to just take off more regularly. Like the sanctions against Nigeria are raised so we can freely interact with other countries. And so You know, so I then got to spend my middle school in Burkina Faso, which is a French-speaking country in West Africa. And I was in an international school. So an American international school. Here I am, this, you know, this Black Nigerian kid, you know, just different accents in an American international school in a Black country, but in a white school with another, with another, you know, language on top of that. And so, you know, you're trying to fit in. And it, you know, it's just an interesting experience, right? Middle school comes with its own set of challenges. I come back to Nigeria, I go to boarding school, uh, and I, you know, I stayed there for, uh, you know, till I graduated. And then brief detour to Vietnam where my father was posted in my senior year. And then from Vietnam, I go to Virginia for school. Um, and yeah, you know, and then in and out of America since then. So. Yeah, big journey.

My dad was a Marine when I was a kid, and we moved, I think, like 13 times in 13 years or something like that. And so even to this day, when people ask me where I'm from and they ask me about my culture, I'm really confused.

Yeah.

And I wonder if if that may be part of your experience too, is figuring out like, who am I and how do all these pieces fit together, especially when you're so little and you're so young. And so you left when you were less than 1. Right.

And then back.

And then back. Yeah, tell me about that, like that, that idea, that, that identity and culture and who I am and How are you navigating that?

So I've started and stopped and started a few series of books. And one of the first lines is always, I've always been on this quest to find out who I am. Who I am is the central question of my life. And I think for many people it is. But yeah, I mean, I grew up having this experience called the TCK experience. The third culture kid is when you spend the formative years of your life in and out of you know, cultures outside of your parents' cultures and your culture. So you just mixed. And yeah, I started really asking myself that question when I was in Burkina Faso, you know, this 10-year-old kid. And at that time, it's a very small school, about 120 or so, from pre-K to, you know, grade 12. So everybody knows each other, uh, small classes. But you, you want to, you want to fit in, right? And I played sports, but Everybody, you know, defines cool in a different way. And, you know, I'm coming in here without the added benefit of knowing some people who've known each other since they were kids. And so you start cosplaying as certain people, wearing different masks. And in the process, I started, like, realizing that I do have anxiety. I didn't know then. But I would have all these moments where I would start stammering. Um, and I would spend nights that I could just mimicking TV shows. Uh, She's All That, 10 Things I Hate About You. I'll like try to, you know, find a Freddie Prinze Jr. line, you know, Heath Ledger. Yeah. Or, or, you know, I'll watch, you know, Will Smith from, you know, Fresh Prince, or pick up something from Martin, and then I'll just be like, okay, you know, try to figure out my cadence. And, you know, it wasn't really who I was, but I was just trying to figure out what was cool and all these things. And, you know, in retrospect, there were a lot of stressful moments, you know. And I remember having a conversation with my, you know, my therapist. There was a school therapist at the time, and I'd never had a therapist at the time. And I— there was one day I was stressed in, you know, 8th grade, and I just casually say, ah, Yeah, I don't know if I want to stay here on, you know, continue. You know, I'm just making a comment. Is she? You know, is she to her credit? She's like calling my dad and calling everybody. Oh, you can't leave here. And I'm thinking, oh no, she's making a statement. How about do anything? And I and I'm freaking out because my father is Nigerian. I'm Nigerian, and I know, and you know, in our culture, this you know this stigma. I'm like, I can't believe I'm gonna have my dad. Leave his own office just because I made a comment that I wasn't intending to sound the way it sounded, and I'm going to be in so much trouble over this. But it was those experiences where I felt like I was showing up as one thing, but I my real self wasn't going to be accepted. And so then that was who I was for middle school. And when I came back to to high school, it was more like all right, fine. No, I'm I'm gonna try to be. this, this person who is just firm in, in his own resolve. And it was— I became this black and white guy. It was like, this is right, this is wrong. Almost like I was reacting to all that, you know. And I ended up being the, the head boy, which is the equivalent of, uh, your student body president. And in a boarding school, again, everybody knows each other. But even though I was seen as a student leader and elected to be the student leader by my senior year, I also felt like I was given. I wasn't, you know, allowing myself to have the nuance. I was just trying to live up to a certain idea almost because I felt betrayed by what I was doing in middle school. And then when it came time for college, I just remember signing this contract with myself that I would just allow myself to be, right? And like, I don't know who this person is, but it's a combination of all my experiences. I don't need to try and forcefully to find that. And I've been on that journey since, you know, sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad. But I had that, those series of ups and downs. And you already know, Dr. Kidd, I, I, um, I had the first panic attack in, in my, uh, you know, boarding school when I was 15. And now we know why, you know, I just had so much in without an outlet, but it just started manifesting.

Oh, I love that you talk about nuance. We talk about nuance all the time.

One of my favorite words.

Yeah,

yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yes. And I, I definitely relate to that need, like, as a kid and, you know, into my teenage years and stuff, of just trying to figure out, like, what's right and what's wrong,

right?

And then in college realizing, like, there maybe is no such thing as either or, right?

It's a great place to be because then it can be freeing, but then you have to also reassess some environments that you, you know, you came from, because there are going to be inevitable, uh, challenges. You know, it could be family members, all that, like, no, that's not what we taught you. But you're like, no, well, I'm— I don't know if I agree with what you said. Right. Yeah, I think it's gonna have to be okay that we disagree on this one. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

And then, you know, of course, in college, I like became like a You know, like social justice warrior, and then, you know, and then learn to refine my argument.

Yeah, that is the part, the refinement. That was what was high school for me. It's like, you don't tell— you don't have to, you know, you have to go into a big speech every time you think something is wrong and start thinking. But I was, you know, I was that dramatic. I was like, okay, just, just cool down, you know, it's not a— it's not that Oh my

gosh,

yeah,

I resonate with this. How spicy. I learned the word insubordination from my flute teacher.

Like,

what does that say about adolescent Nicole? Oh my gosh.

It's true though. Yeah, yeah,

insubordination. I

mean, you just wanted to do things. You were just curious. You're right, right? Um, yeah. That curiosity that I've always had, I allowed myself to do that more freely. I used to get punished for that by teachers when I was a kid because I was— I've always been energetic and hyper, but they just didn't know what to do with my energy. And I was like, well, what about this? What about that? Is that true?

Yeah,

yeah.

That energy is one of your superpowers.

Oh, yeah.

But I agree right now. I used to shame myself for that though. Well,

it's because it's not convenient to have someone who thinks for themselves and asks questions and is really energetic when you're trying to wrangle a bunch of kids who are all like that. And so we have so many kids who have this amazing— these unique, amazing superpowers, and just the educational infrastructure isn't built to support that. And so then we all walk around and we're all like, I have ADHD. I'm restless, I have neuroatypicalities, but rather, what if we did have a society or a culture that actually honored those superhero strengths? Like, I wonder what it would have been like for your younger self to have been free to ask all the questions and to be really energized and to do anything that came up for you. Like, whoa.

No, it would have been amazing because I would have not held so much in. That's one of the reasons I became a writer. I love writing in general, but I would always write in my journals just internal thoughts I had, you know. And I remember— I go to therapy regularly now, but I remember feeling betrayed by the therapist, even though she was doing a job.

Yeah.

But in my head, I was like— I wasn't articulating the way you were saying. I was just like— I meant like, you know, it was a frustrating day. Sometimes I feel like I don't want to be in this school. I don't want to be here or what, you know, all that. But it was It was just, you know, I was just despondent and I thought I was voicing this out. But after that, I started internally writing things almost as a rebellion. I'm not gonna talk to you anymore. I'm gonna do that. But that came from the stigma that I had adopted where I felt like I couldn't trust people with information. And I had to unlearn that before. But if I had that infrastructure in place where people were saying, you know, it's okay to feel this, you might get a headache. You're very good about saying the body parts. You might have your heartbeat this way. Yeah. And it's okay, come to me, you don't look weak, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, I would have been in an interesting space there. Yeah.

And then also, for those who are listening, is, is having thoughts about our exit strategy, and feeling like I just don't want to be here anymore when suffering is so great, is that is a normal way to feel. Obviously, it's It's a whole different story if it goes into thinking about how to hurt yourself or making intentions or plans. That's concerning. But had my now self been there with your past self, I would have been like, yeah, that makes sense. Tell me more about that. Let's unpack that.

Yeah.

And honored all vibes welcome instead of like, I'm here for you only if they're good vibes. Otherwise, you're in trouble and I'm calling your dad and this whole whole rigmarole. But then also, I have to just like high-five your younger self because journaling is such a brilliant, trauma-informed, innovative, somatic processing activity. Like, there are very few things that you could have done that were more powerful within that level of agency that you have as a teen.

Well, thank you. I still have some of my books, especially from the high school, and, and It ended up being freeing, but it was— I always tell people it helped me record observations. And I tell people to do that to themselves, record the observations around you and within yourself. And even if it's something you don't like, well, why do I always react this way? Why am I jealous here? What makes me feel unfulfilled here? And you can start to notice patterns, and you just get better about recognizing your own triggers. And the better you recognize your triggers, You know, you can, you can get to the point where you can have changed behavior. I always say, you know, in order to have changed behavior, you need to be able to recognize your triggers. And so it's so important to be able to be that reflective and have a place to write these feelings out.

Yes. And I love, Dr. Cain, that you said that it's a somatic practice too, because I think people don't really know that because they're like, oh, I'm just writing things down. So this feels very mental, but actually Actually, like, your body is moving by writing it down. You know, you're moving less if you, like, type it out on a computer or, like, you, like, type it out on your phone or whatever. But if you're writing it with your hand, totally somatic.

Yes. Pads, what was your— what was your— so I journaled. Like, it's— Tayo, I think it's so beautiful. We both journaled. I have, like, stacks of notebooks that I've been pulling out of the basement.

It's a random piece of paper. I've been writing.

Yeah, same.

Yeah.

Kindred spirit, I'm telling you. And so I have like stacks of old journals and I like looked back at them recently and I was like, oh girl, whoa. But like, Hadlee, what was yours? Like, what was your main coping skill?

Ah, well, I wish that I could say it was very healthy, like journaling. Um, no, I did journal, but it was more like, um, it was like writing down just like what happened during the day because like with books that I read, I'd be like, oh, like this is how you're supposed to journal. Um, and I didn't really write about like my feelings. Um, however, I guess one healthy thing was that my parents were super into personal development. So I was reading books like Don't Sweat the Small Stuff for Teens, like 7 Habits of Highly Effective Teens.

Oh yeah.

But I will say my coping strategy was eating. It was not— it was like a— it was just overeating. And it was very effective for not feeling any of the feelings. Like, I didn't know that I was emotional eating. Because I didn't feel any of the emotions. It was very effective in not feeling those emotions. So then I had to do a lot of unlearning and then doing— do a lot of emotional, like, work with that to stop the emotional eating and everything. So yeah, it's very

self-aware.

Yeah.

Well,

I'm

curious to hear your thoughts on this because both of you study this. I noticed that the higher my anxiety sometimes, the, the bigger my sweet tooth is. I, you know, I just— and to your point about the overeating, I'm talking about 4 bags of just gummies where I'm like, what? Where did this— I'm just, just eating the things and it just makes me feel better. Then I instantly regret it, of course. But I don't know if there's a connection with sugar and anxiety or just unhealthy eating, but it— I've noticed that in myself over the years.

Absolutely. Yeah, it is, it is, uh, it helps you. Like, it actually does calm you down. Like, it's grounding to have sugar or even like The salty taste, the sweet taste, all of those things does help us ground down. And we probably don't want to be eating 4 bags of gummies, right? And we can find other ways to calm down.

Yeah.

But yeah, no, there's very much a direct correlation. I mean, I'm sure Dr. Cain can talk about the actual mechanism of how that happens too.

There, there are so many magical things to say about that, but what sticks out to me especially is that you were craving gummies, which are kind of sweet and sour, right?

And sour, yeah.

And so we know that the act of swallowing and sour flavors in particular— remember we were on Tamarind and she had that dish of candies and I licked one of them and it was so sour, I was like, sour. It activates vagus nerve, and vagus nerve calms the body. So eating in and of itself, but then also what we crave. And then Hadlee, from an Ayurveda perspective, sour. So he's craving sour in particular. Tell us about that.

It's grounding. So sour, sweet, and salty, those are the 3 grounding tastes in Ayurveda. And so that's what we crave when we are needing that That immediate grounding. Now, there are other things that we can do for immediate grounding.

Yeah, there we go.

I mean, but, and also, it's not bad or wrong that that's what you do or that you have done. And because when you, you know, I talk a lot about like the emotional eating cycle and there's a whole, like there are different stages to this cycle. And one of the stages you mentioned, which is immediately regretting it.

Yeah.

And so, a lot of times we will beat ourselves up about that and the beating ourselves up actually perpetuates the cycle. You are more likely to do it in the future because you feel that guilt and that shame from it. So, a lot of people think that they need to be more mindful eaters and they need to break out of the cycle before it happens or even during. Stop myself at one bag of gummies, um, or like a couple. Yeah, I gotta do one.

Yes.

And we can stop ourselves in those areas, but we can also break out of the cycle from afterward instead of feeling that guilt and shame. Like, really just tuning in and being like, what led to that? Can I give myself some compassion and understanding? What happened here? And like, actually dig into that, and that will Stop the perpetuation of that cycle as well.

Interesting. Well, see, both geniuses. Thank you so much. I just, I had a feeling because it's something that, you know, I noticed and I'm like, I know I shouldn't be doing this. My, my, I feel like my dentist is perched up the wall there just watching me like, no cavities. Oh

my gosh, your dentist is on one shoulder.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And

you've got a gummy bear on the other shoulder.

Yeah, no, I have the dentist here and the, the marketing company saying, no, get us, feed your system, give us your dollars. Yeah, yeah.

And yeast, don't forget yeast. It's like, it's like the Little Shop of Horrors. It's like, sugar, feed me.

Yeah, that Candida really wants that sugar. Yes.

Oh my gosh. So this is like identities. This is parts. This is like part of me craves the, the gummies. Part of me feels bad about the gummies. And so in your book, this is a segue, believe it or not, gummies are a segue, is in your book on page 63. So by the way, um, this is my good friend Tyo Roxon. He wrote, he's done so much work, but he wrote Use Your Difference to Make a Difference: How to Connect and Communicate in a Cross-Cultural World. And this is just a brilliant book. And so in this book, you have a section on identity.

Yeah.

And what I really appreciate is that you ask the first question out the gate are, what are your multiple identities? And so I actually want to do this exercise together.

Let's do it.

Yeah, that's a great idea.

Yeah, and so, so actually, because Tayo, you've had a chance to think about this, I'm gonna— I want Hadlee to answer first.

Okay.

And then, and then Tayo, I want to hear. But, but it's neat because you guys have very different cultures. I have different cultures. Then we can start to explore the assumptions about other people's identities based on culture, based on experiences that we've had that we assume that they've had, and kind of use that as an inroad. Because I feel like culture is a really big, important part of your conversation that you're having in this world, Tayo. And so I want to make sure that, that we get to lean into that during our conversation today. Is that all right?

No, please, let's do it.

Sweet. Okay, uh, Hads, what are your multiple identities?

Uh, okay, well, I'm a woman. Um, I'm in my 20s, though I'm turning 30 very soon. Um, I'm excited for 30, honestly.

Oh, okay, this is good. I like that. I never know what it is. Yeah, right? I know people, people are scared of it.

We did actually a podcast about aging and fear of aging and all of that. So no, I'm excited about it. I am a white woman. Let's see, class identity, upper class, I would say. Growing up, thought that I was upper middle class. Looking back, Everyone says that who's upper class. So it was more upper class than I initially thought. Oh gosh. I mean, just other identities. I think of myself as a theater kid. That's a very big part of my upbringing. Yeah, it counts. Let's see. Like, health and wellness is like a big, big part of my identity now. Yeah, those are some of the ones that come to mind.

I love it. Yeah.

Yeah. I don't know if there's anything else I'm missing, but yeah.

There's a lot of layers.

Yeah. So,

so if you're doing this exercise with your, your consultees or your students or your clients with, with that first part, Like, how would you expand on that or teach on that, Tayo? Like, what comes up?

I, you know, I will often open up with the fact that, you know, the world is an interesting place. It tries to put us in a box. But if you really think about yourself, you have many interests. You probably woke up today trying to fit into several of those things. And so for you in this workplace, in order for us to get you to be the best employee the, you know, the best colleague, it's important for us to figure out things about who you are so that we can work and cater to those strengths and also understand the things you don't like and why you don't like them. And I think normally when you go to workplaces, people might just react to you like, oh yeah, he doesn't— he's never— I don't like the way he talks. Why do you talk like that? And you never really understand the reasons behind that. And so if you see someone who's very excitable You know, early in the morning, that might be because this person likes running 5 miles every morning and they're, you know, they're awake and you could see them differently based on the fact that you know that now. And maybe not as an annoying pest as you initially, as you initially thought. And then, and then the other thing that's interesting is when you start learning about people's interests, it allows you to create potential shared experiences because then you start realizing, I didn't know he'd do that. I didn't even like that. What do you think about this? Let's do that. And then you have these bonds that move past that formal relationship and you can just start proactively reaching out to someone, which then makes working together easier than it would have been in the past because it's not as awkward to start a conversation. So, it's that. And then I'll just, you know, and then we start going and then I model. I think it's very important for people to model. And so, I'll say, you know, you know, looking like— looking at myself, like you, you could say, you know, Nigerian, Black immigrant, but extremely nerdy. A bookworm, a gym rat, someone who loves a classic romantic comedy as much as he loves, you know, a thriller, you know, or a gangster flick. Mm-hmm. You know, avid writer, and, you know, big brother. You know, I see myself as, you know, big brother because I have 2 younger brothers, but I'm also part of Big Brother, Big Sister. And you start getting all these things where people are really, oh, I didn't know he did that. You know, and then it's an interesting way. And then, oh, something you probably don't know about me. My favorite superhero is Superman. And then, wait, wait, wait. What do you mean Superman? Why Superman? Why not Batman? Tell me more. And then you start going into all these things. And so, that's how you— I do it. You know, give them a brief context, allow them to envision it in their world, then model. And then they start getting enthusiastic because they can see that it can go anywhere.

Oh, okay. That's so good. And so, and so it allows— it's kind of an open-ended side door into what it means to be human, as opposed to like the closed-ended questions that we might ask. Or like, where are you from? Well, I am from— I have no idea because I moved. Yeah, right. Versus like, what do you— tell me about like all of the yous. Like, who are you?

Who do you—

what are all the things that make you uniquely you? Tell me about all of that.

Exactly. And it gives you permission to do the same things you all want people to do. You know, your, your goals in some ways to guide people to the North Star. But when you start giving permission to actually be more than whatever they're defined by, not just by their job title.

Mm-hmm.

There's an interesting thing that, you know, people experience with school, with work, and all that. And I always try to bring that type of thing to my students or even my friend group. It's like, hey, that's— you don't have to show up with this. I understand if you're having a bad day, it's okay. I understand if you're having a good day. I understand if you just want to focus on this. I understand if you don't like going out to this place. It doesn't mean we can't be friends, but this allows me to understand you more. And so it's, it's one of those things.

And all vibes welcome.

Oh, you all— oh, go ahead. Sorry. Oh

no, I was just gonna say all vibes welcome.

All vibes. Exactly. You already did the motto. And with students, it also allows me to figure out how to craft projects for them, right? This semester, I asked them their learning styles, and I was able to— I gave them a midterm cater to their learning styles, right? You know, kinesthetic learners, you know, people that like audio, all that. So there was that as well, just allowing them to learn in their best way.

How do people respond to these— this level of depth, of emotional complexity and depth in different workplaces, especially when you have people across cultures?

There's a lot of skepticism initially, because, you know, people will be like, whoa, No, you know, obviously, there are a lot of people, and it could be justified in some senses, who don't feel too comfortable revealing aspects of themselves because they, you know, might fear retaliation, or, you know, they want to give too much information to something. But, but, and then there are others who would— they would just embrace it. They're just like, yes, especially during the pandemic. I remember where there was this craving for connection and community. And so anything that really got them to think outside of work was just welcomed. You know, all vibes are welcome there. And so I think it depends on the industry, it depends on what's happening in the world, and it depends on that, you know, and all those things. Context, nuance, like we're saying.

I love it. I also wanted to ask you about, like, you know, people might be listening to this and being like, yeah, you know, like, Inclusion work is really important, and like, based on my values, I want to do this work. Some people might have a little bit more skepticism, like you were saying, in like the different places that you consult in and everything. So I wanted to ask you, like, how does it— how have you seen it actually improve not just the individuals who are within the company or the institution or whatever, but how does it actually, like, drive results for that institution, results for the company as a whole, and yeah, the community as a whole?

So I see a lot of the work I do as something that connects the invisible to the visible, right? Maybe it's a bias, it's invisible, something you're struggling with, it's invisible, the many layers of you, usually invisible, and you're connecting into the visible. And so in terms of policies, It allows a lot of companies to end up expanding whatever resource they have. Like, oh, maybe they had a mental health resource, but it catered to the extrovert as opposed to the introvert. Now you understand, okay, so this allows some sort of privacy. This allows a feedback loop that can go here, you know, regardless of that. Someone is a mother but doesn't talk about it. But then, because they're a mother, they have to go up, show up to work at a certain time and leave at a certain time. It led to some assumptions that this person is not as involved in workplace, but they're trying to be. A mother. But now you have resources and an employee resource group where parents and, you know, can work together and talk and share resources. You have young students or young interns or older employees who are trying to fit in, but they feel like sometimes other people think they're out of touch or different generations. And then you start understanding, like, no, we have a group for you here. These are the resources here. It impacts the way you lead. The policies you have, but also just understanding the people around you because you start seeing them more. And I always tell people, you don't have to show your full self in the workplace. I want us to get to a place where you are comfortable with the amount of self that you show while understanding that showing those layers are not going to be punitive, right? So, you have the psychological safety. To do that, and so that those are the ways that I've seen itself. Then the conversation doesn't end up being like that in you know in the long run because sometimes people like to simplify it into one or other things. But then when you start with what you were saying, the multiple layers of who you are, you're like, "Oh, I need this. I need that. I struggle anxiety. I struggle with depression. It gets triggered. My burnout happens here. This da da da." And then I'm like, "Oh." I know what to do for you. You should go do that.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

Ooh. I, you had mentioned like way at the beginning of this call, you had mentioned performative action.

Yes.

And I would love to, for anyone who doesn't know what that is, um, if you wanna just speak to that a little bit and how we bust through that so that what we're doing is not performative action and instead is actually helpful.

Well, in the theater of our world, we have very, very interesting actors and actresses. You know, some give Oscar-winning performances and some give Razzie-winning performances. But a lot of people now know what the clichés are because of the influx of information. And you can say it, you can drill it down to a slogan or something, right? And what I feel like that does is it doesn't allow us to understand How a saying became a cliché, or why something is more important to someone. And so I feel like, especially even since COVID we started hearing all these words that we now know. Oh yeah, no justice, no peace. Black lives matter. You know, me too. All these things. But we don't spend enough time understanding what led to that and why someone wants to say. Me too. Why someone is saying Black Lives Matter, why someone is saying you know no justice, no peace. And so it's in and then what would happen is the news outlets to say this or certain you know TikTok or influencers or whatever would say something and then you feel like you get the sound bites. However, I honestly feel like that dehumanizes the people that you claim to want to be an ally and an advocate advocate for because you're not. Reflecting on the level of privilege you have and the advantage, and the advantage it gives you. And so I'm going to use myself as an example. I have privileges as well as you know things that I that I might not be as privileged in, right? Being a man is something that is a privilege in many instances. I live in New York. I can walk at nine p.m. without really worrying about my safety in certain areas, and many women can't do that, right? That's a privilege. It doesn't mean that sometimes when I go to the airport because of my citizenship. I end up going to longer lines or having more questions. Those 2 things can coexist. But people who are sometimes performative feel like once they have said the word and they have understood, they have created a policy or they have thrown money at something, that they have done the job. But no, you have not. It is about understanding, well, why does the problem exist? And how can now— I can now use my resources other than money to ensure that I am in the communities around me are not perpetuating these things. And so they get— that's, that's just the, the extra step that you have to take, you know, um, in terms of that. So,

um, yeah. Will you say a little bit more about like the— yeah, the how you can have privilege in some areas and, you know, not in other areas and stuff too? Because I think that's really important.

Yeah, you know, it comes down to the— I always say this, you know, in a world of nuance, we're governed by binary options. Right. Yeah,

writing that down.

Oh my gosh, soundbite. And so someone could look like me. So we could have, you know, 2 other Black people here, right? And you could make the same— you can make an assumption. But maybe me being a Nigerian gives me an advantage here versus someone who defines themselves as another citizen, or vice versa. Or you could have someone based— who has a different shape and looks the same But because of how society views certain shapes, they could, you know, instant access, go in, come out, all that. And then you could have someone— this is very invisible— who struggles with anxiety and depression but presents as someone who is very confident. And so he or she, they are in a room, uh, you know, filled with so many people who apparently present as confident, but that person is struggling due to all the, the, you know, the triggers and the sounds and all those things. But the way you've catered the environment is you've made an assumption without understanding who that person is. And and it's I just it's a dance of life, right? You you just have to understand where you are allowing someone to have a better advantage, whether it's not on purpose or on purpose, or whether you yourself have an advantage. And then how do you then create a safe space or an invitation for someone to say? Hey, before we start this event, these are the, you know, items that we're worrying about. But just so you know, if you need a break, there's a break room here. If you need an opportunity to pump, there's a pump room here. If you need whatever. And then, you know, you have all those things. And I think understanding that no one person has one identity, no one person that looks the same shares the same privileges all the time. And no one person that looks the same shares all the same marginalizations. You invite yourself to dig deeper to understand what makes that person them and how to be a better, you know, advocate in general.

I love the second question that you have. I wonder if allows us to not just make assumptions about the many ways that individuals identify and have needs. And so you write, Are there any aspects of your identity you wish could be expressed more and why?

Yeah, I think it's a question we should ask ourselves, but also anyone in the privileged position to ask. If you're a parent, for example, you can say that to your kids. If you're a teacher, you can say that. If you're a CEO, a leader, or in a one-on-one meeting, you know, are there aspects of this or are there things that we do that make you feel uncomfortable? And you might not always get the answer initially because you have to work up the rapport and build the trust, but the consistency of asking and them knowing that there's an opportunity to eventually share is, is going to be important. And it even happens in romantic relationships where someone might have an overwhelming, you know, emotion and it might just be in their feelings and not say anything. And then maybe 2 days later, it's like, you know, when you, you know, you asked that, this is actually, you know, but just because you allowed that space to exist, you are creating a pathway eventually that can lead to something.

I, I appreciate that so much. I work in a mental health clinic. I own— I'm a co-owner of Health for Life in Michigan, and we have 30-plus counselors. And all these counselors have their own culture and their own— almost all of them, probably all of them come from trauma. We're all wounded healers in many ways.

Yeah.

And sometimes it can feel like walking through a landmine, like mortars, like in the ground. You're like walking, you're like, sure, everything's gonna be fine. And then you say or do or don't say or don't do something. And it's like, holy crap, that was a big mistake on the part of leadership. And so I really appreciate and wish I would have had this 10 years ago when we started this company, because I think it— this is trauma-informed. This is trauma-informed leadership. Being—

Yeah.

Being able to look at someone like no one person has one identity. And in a world of nuance, we're governed by binary options. I just feel like the conversation is so expansive with this language that you're bringing to the table.

Yeah, and that's why I get frustrated with the dialogue around what inclusion equity is, because I feel like we're, you know, we're letting a lot of people down, honestly. Yeah. Because, you know, in the context of this conversation, mental health is, you know, and it's one of the things I've really enjoyed diving into in recent years, is it is so vast, you know. And if I didn't have my personal lived experience, I could have made a lot of the same mistakes that people made with me just because You know, you we just assumed. But I understand how certain things happen now based on my you know conversations with my therapist and you know and other and the environments I've shared people that have similar shared experiences. But some of these shared experiences that we're talking about, they operate in silos and they don't end up becoming you know part of what needs to be the main conversations. But I don't believe that a lot of the leaders and people that we you know, interact with aren't struggling with some sort of something, but we're not doing a good enough job of giving them language. Not you, but the leaders, the systems, the systems around those are not doing a good enough job of giving people language to communicate their feelings. Like systems, I mean by schools, systems I mean by workplaces. We spend most of our lives in some sort of education system or some sort of workplace, sometimes even more, a lot of times more than the people you, you live with and love with.

Yeah.

You're not equipping them with the language. What are we gonna do? You know, they feel like they have to conform to some sort of things, and they struggle with a lot of things internally.

I want to really, really, really point out what you just said here, is really emphasize that when I started creating an Instagram and writing blogs and doing this podcast, is I had a colleague who was like, in 10 years, are you gonna think about things the same way?

Mm-hmm.

And I was like, I hope not. And he's like, well then why are you gonna put yourself out there? Because then people are gonna say that you're inconsistent or you're wishy-washy. And I, I think that we have an opportunity to do better, to allow people to be in positions of leadership. And to express things that may not be perfect.

Yeah.

And then to give them the grace to be in that space, kind of looking at them with just a perspective of greatness, like you are doing your very best, I see the greatness in you, and then allowing them to evolve, even if that means that they let go of something that they believed in in the past.

Yeah. Yeah.

And I think we as leaders need to be Like, I mean, I watch, I witness myself try to do it right and do it perfectly the first time. And I think we as leaders need to be like humble, humble ourselves enough to realize that we are going to mess it up and that we like absolutely need to call ourselves out and to be like, let ourselves be called out and stuff too.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Perfectionism, it's its own system of oppression, by the way, and suppression, right? Perfectionism is its own system of oppression and suppression because whatever you decide is perfect, right? Perfect body size, perfect language, perfect everything. You end up, you know, trying to fit into something that you lose an essence of who you are in the process. And to your point, Hadlee, if we don't start actually just modeling and saying, hey, you know, just so you know, I didn't get it right the first time. This is like my 7th business, or I made a mistake, or I hired this and all that. You, you give a lot of people permission in your circle of influence to understand that it's safe. Keyword safe. Safe to fail. Like, it's just safe to fail. And then, then, then that works backwards. Okay, I can forgive myself. I can give myself grace. It doesn't define me. Right? You have all these— it doesn't define me. I'm not defined by this. I can pivot, I can move, I can do all these things. And so there's, there's so much importance in that ability to accept evolution, Dr. Caine. So yeah.

So if you had a TL;DR, which is too long, didn't read, kind of a soundbite, if you will, because this is audio format, And you're thinking about your big picture, your non-negotiables, distilling truth with my truth. And this is a long question. And your core values and your why, what you're here on this world to do. When you think about all of that, we do a giant zoom out.

Yeah.

If someone is only able to hear just one small piece of wisdom or a piece of advice or something to think about, what do you want that to be?

You know, my mission statement is use a difference to make a difference. That's why I titled the book that. But I want someone to understand that what makes them different doesn't make them less important, right? And so the TL;DR would be, okay, start off with the, the differences you have, anything that you feel is uncomfortable or you feel like deviates from the, the norm or the convention. Start off there and then connect your value systems to all those things. Now, you might start realizing that there are some things that are different about you that you feel like are rooms for improvement. It's also beautiful, right? But understand the things that, you know, that trigger you and that make you feel Different, and then accept that it doesn't make you less important, but also know that it's, it's a key to you achieving your greatness. And there's so many things that could happen from that. There's a whole map system that the big mind map would be, this makes me different. And then you start pulling these branches, this, this, this, like this, like that, no, this good. It's like, you know, a scientist there, like it's A Beautiful Mind. But I, I think that that's the one thing I want people to start looking into. And then you, you find your individuality, you find your identities, and, um, you then find your tribe.

Oh, so starting today, what's one thing our listeners can do today?

Start off with the mind map. What makes you different? And let's start building our identity map from there. And it can be a series of mind maps, by the way, uh, because you operate in different, different ways in different environments. And you'll be very surprised by what happens. You know, it could be— nothing is too trivial in this exercise, uh, by the way. If it's— if it's you like to stay up watching reruns of Friends, uh, specifically on Mondays, yeah, right, put it there. Uh, whatever, whatever it is, um, and then, um, and I— then I think you, you get close to those hidden layers because A lot of us were so passionate about something when we were younger and we just, you know, just ditched them. You know, some people were great artists and they, well, it doesn't make money, so I'm just going to do this thing that I hate. And then you find, well, I can actually do this on weekends and I can create an Instagram page about this, or I can have a website where I talk about this. I could interview, you know, there's so many things that could come from the exercise based on that. So.

I love that. And I also love the, um, the values exercise that you have in your book. So everyone go buy the book.

Go, yes, please.

And do the values exercise. I mean, the identity exercise too that we did today. Um, but yeah, the, the values exercise is so— I just think it's so different from a lot of the things that I've learned too, um, in this space. So yeah, it's Thank

you.

Really cool. Yeah.

I think whenever anyone gets in trouble, it's because they deviate from the values. Any company or someone embezzled money, it's not what was on the mission statement or the vision statement. Yeah, you'll see, I vowed to steal all my stakeholders' money, you know. So the clues are always there. You crafted that mission statement and then you went away from that.

Yeah.

Do something. So yeah.

Yeah.

Oh, that's great. That's so great. Um, so Hadlee, before we go, I have a question for you.

Oh gosh, are you putting me on the spot again?

You just always surprise me and delight me with your answers, so I, I want to know, and

And I've also thought of so many other identity things since, since we did this exercise, of course.

Really?

I'm like, oh, I should have said this. That's the

beauty of it.

Yeah, right, right.

Write it down, write it down.

Yeah, definitely.

I, I want to know what your 5 core values are. So Taya was talking about that at the beginning. What are your 5 core values, Had?

Yeah, yeah. I, um, Purpose. So feeling purposeful. And like I said at the beginning, service is a really big one for me. That's a theme that comes up all the time, that has since I was a kid. My mom was really into how can we be creative in serving the world essentially. Hmm. And we did some really fun fundraising things and stuff. She was She was a teacher too, so she was like, like a 4th grade teacher and she was really good at kind of being creative with that. But so service, purpose, which kind of go together. Let's see. Nuance. That's so good. Being able to see like both sides of something. And not looking at it as black and white because that is my tendency. And so, nuance is a constant. Like, I'm always thinking about that. Fun is a really big one for me too. I can tend to be serious. And so, fun is always my medicine. Fun and humor is always my medicine. So, that's 4, I think. Let's see, 5. Joy.

That's one of mine. That's one of mine too. I wrote that down.

Yeah.

Guys, we have so much in common.

Oh my gosh.

Yeah, we do.

I feel like we could talk to you for literally hours and hours and hours.

The feeling is mutual.

We'll have to continue the conversation. Yeah, I mean, anytime. Invite me.

I love talking about these things. I think there's, you know, there's so much nuance. There's this— yeah, um, but yes, no, I love it.

Yeah,

thank you for being here, everybody. This has been Tayo Roxon. Please go buy his book, follow him on social. You're on Insta, you're on TikTok, you have a ton of great resources online. Um, we'll make sure that we have links for everything in the show notes so you can go and click on that. And it's been sincerely an honor and a joy, and we look forward to staying in touch and having—

Likewise. No, Stephanie, thank you both. This has been so much fun, so much fun.

Oh my gosh, yay! All right, everybody, thanks for being at the Holistic Inner Balance. We'll see you next time.

Bye, everyone!