Fall Asleep Faster, Rest Deeper & Wake Up Refreshed Using Sleep Science with Devin Burke | Ep 151

Hey, everyone. Boy, today is a really powerful conversation, especially for me. And I don't know if we've talked about this a lot on the podcast, but my journey kind of hit this sort of catastrophic climax When I stopped sleeping in 2015. And it was at a time where I was pedal to the metal. I was like fully in my achiever zone. I was entrepreneuring all of the way, and my body just decided to hit the brakes and it forced me to stop. But I didn't get to slip into blissful unconsciousness. I was awake and it got so bad. I ended up taking benzodiazepines like Valium and Xanax. I took Ambien and I was losing weight, losing functionality. I lost my period and I felt like this is the end for me. I wasn't sleeping. And nobody knew what to do about it. And so that's, that's where my story begins, really. I know that I'd been at it for a while, but really that moment of climax into the horrific throes of insomnia was really beginning of something new and incredible. And so we're going to talk about sleep and insomnia today, and it's particularly important. For me, because I am an insomnia warrior and I've done so much to heal. I know there's so much healing to happen. And so that's what we're going to explore. And I'm really excited for you all to be a part of it.

Things that came up for me when you were saying that is you girl bossed too hard and that was your rock bottom. That was like your come to Jesus moment. And yeah, I'm really excited for everyone to be able to listen to this. If you're listening and you're like, this is— that's where I am right now, or even if you're not necessarily in that place, this episode is going to be amazing for you. So let's get into it. So we're going to be interviewing Devin Burke, and he helps high achievers and exhausted insomniacs get and stay asleep so that they can wake up with more peace, power, and presence. He is a bestselling author. He's a TEDx speaker. a coach, and founder of Sleep Science Academy, which helps people stop suffering and start sleeping using a unique holistic approach based in science. He was also named one of the top 25 health coaches in America. So we are just absolutely graced with his presence today. Very excited for you to listen to this episode. Shall we get into it?

Let's do it.

So this is A topic that is so near and dear to both of our hearts. Dr. Cain was just sharing about her insomniac experience and how that was really the catalyst to a lot of shifts that she made for herself in her health and wellness. And it was also the catalyst for me as well. Wow. When I was in undergrad, it was actually not insomnia. It was more of a lack of value around sleep. kind of always known that sleep was important, but I got it in my head at some point during college, like around sophomore, junior year of college, that it wasn't as important as exercise and it wasn't as important as having fun with my friends and it wasn't as important as school.

Yes.

And, I went to University of Michigan, so it was a very work hard, play hard mentality. There was no rest hard included in In that. And so I also had a rock bottom with all sorts of health issues. I was getting ear infections. I was like, I didn't even know you could get these as an adult. I was getting all sorts of illnesses and all the things. So this is something that we both are really passionate about, and we're really excited to have you on here with us.

I'm excited to be here and talk about sleep because it is the foundation of An amazing life and amazing longevity. And it's connected to everything, right? It's not— that's the cool part. I mean, well, everything's connected to everything really, if you think about it. But a lot of times people put sleep in this— they think about it as a separate thing, which sort of makes sense because we're unconscious when we're doing it. And we have this negative stigma that's sort of starting to shift now. Now it's a little bit cooler to sleep. There's not so much bravado around, oh, I only got 3 hours. Now when you say, oh, I only got 3 hours, people are like, man, you're dumb. Like, before it was like, yeah, like, go, yeah, you're hustler. But now I think the, the, the culture is shifting, which is amazing because we know how important it is. It's like, man, it's so important. Yeah.

And you've been a pioneer in helping us shift this culture.

I'm, I'm doing the— I'm, I'm doing the best I can over here. I really am. It's tough working with Sleep-deprived people. Wow. I mean, the interesting thing, you could be the nicest person, and then after 3, 4 months of 3, 4 hours of sleep a night and probably on some medication, you become pretty angry and fearful and frustrated and negative. It's amazing to see people's transformations from meeting them in that place. And then 8 weeks, 12 weeks later, seeing them back to who they actually are, and you're like, whoa, this is like, you're a different person. And you're like, no, well, this is the person I normally am when I actually get sleep. It's crazy. It actually blows my mind. Um, and it just, it's just a testament to how important it is, right? To our emotional health, to our mental health. I mean, there's so many things, right? So yeah, I'm excited to talk about this and we, and We do things a little different at Sleep Science Academy, a little bit different. So I'd love to share some of the things that I've discovered and sort of created, I guess, or at least, I don't know, anything identified. I'll use the word identified that have been so helpful for a lot of people that we've been able to support. So I'm excited to get into it.

I want to just stimulate the amygdalas of our listeners. And so for those who are more like my brother, who are like, oh, well, you can sleep when you're dead, is that there's an opportunity to look at sleep from a broader perspective. And they did this study with women, and they deprived the women in this sample size of sleep for 3 consecutive days, and they were able to reliably reproduce symptoms associated with fibromyalgia. And so if you're listening to this conversation and maybe you don't necessarily feel tired, but you do struggle with aches or pains or muscle soreness or even other physical symptoms that we'll probably get into during this conversation, is just allow yourself the luxury of just giving this a little bit of a listen. And then the other thing that I hope that we can take as an angle is to not just talk about that you should sleep and, you know, have set aside time for rest is I really want to get into the space for people whose bodies just simply weren't going to sleep. I have— I had a therapist once who told me, oh, the tired brain will sleep, don't worry about it. And I said, well, a tired brain will sleep unless there's an obstacle to the tired brain going to sleep. And so I want to honor and talk to those people as well. And so you mentioned with that volley up, Devin, you mentioned that you guys do things a little bit differently. And so I'd love to hear about that. I also am very curious about your personal story and your why behind this work that you do.

Yeah. So I guess I could start there. And I'll start with also prefacing, there's really 3 buckets that I put people in when it comes to sleep. And depending on what bucket you're in, It's very contextual, the information, cuz for some buckets, the information actually can keep you stuck. And I'll give you an example of what I mean by that. So the 3 buckets. So there's a large portion of the population that sleep pretty good. They don't think about sleep. They're not really, maybe they're not getting a lot of great quality sleep, but they're getting enough sleep. They don't really think about it. It's a big, that's one bucket. There's a smaller bucket over here of people that have tried everything under the sun, all the supplements, the therapies, and they're still not sleeping. They're on multiple medications. They're still struggling with their sleep. They're the really sleep-challenged portion of the population. And then, on the other side of that, there's the biohackers, the people that are obsessed. There's this term called sleep maxing. Have you heard of this sleep maxing? Okay, so

this is writing it down.

Yeah, sleep maxing. So this is it's a kind of funny thing. It's kind of fun. I I think it's hilarious actually because it's just sort of ridiculous. But sleep maxing is people that are trying to optimize every second of their sleep. So you can think of like the Brian Johnsons, 100% sleep scores. They're doing like you know hyperbaric chambers and they're. And they're doing anything they can to optimize their sleep score. And, you know, there's— it's kind of funny in pop culture now, the Oura Ring, like Jennifer Aniston versus, you know, uh, Kim Kardashian. They're doing like sleep-offs with who has the better sleep score. And it kind of has become this thing, for better or worse. I think there's, there's positive and negative. Aspects to this whole sort of sleep maxing trend. Uh, but there's, there's people on that side of things where they're like, they're sleeping great, but they just want to sleep better. They just want to really get the juice for the squeeze. So, okay. So those are our 3 buckets. And again, depending on which bucket we're talking to, certain information will be helpful for people in that bucket, or it could be detrimental, very detrimental. The information that I'm sharing for the people that are sleep maxing Often is very detrimental to the people that are in the position where they're literally trying to do everything and sleep's not happening for them, right? So, um, so yeah, so let's, let's keep that in mind during this conversation. And how I got into this, it was actually not through my own struggle. A lot of people were like, wow, you must have had like terrible sleep. And I'm actually an incredible sleeper. Like sleep is a gift. My family used to kid around and call me narco. Because I could sleep, I can sleep anywhere. You could put me on a park bench and I could fall asleep. In an airport on the floor, I could fall asleep. It's like a gift. So it's so ironic now that I help people that really have the worst sleep challenges. Um, but it was really outta someone else's struggle. So it was, I was working with a lot of super high-performing, very driven, successful people as a health and life coach, performance coach. Most of these people weren't sleeping. And one person in particular was like, listen, this is really starting to affect my life. I don't want to go on Ambien. I don't want to go on, you know, any of these benzos. What— is there anyone you know? Is there any— like, do some research and get back to me. I'm a busy person. I hired you to figure this, this thing out. I'm like, I don't know anything either. So long story short, I start doing some research. I find CBT-I, which I was like, okay, some of this makes sense to me. The cognitive restructuring, the reframing, a lot of the things that we— I was actually implementing in my coaching. Some of it didn't make sense to me. It was like the sleep restriction. I was like, I could see maybe if somebody doesn't have hyperarousal or high levels of anxiety, I was like, okay, maybe that could work. Increase sleep pressure. That makes sense. So long story short, I started to sort of look into solutions, experiment with this person. He was like, listen, I'll be your guinea pig. Let's just try things, see if we can figure it out. Started experimenting, got some results. It was great. Told his friends that had sleep issues. More people started coming to me, started more experimenting anecdotally of what worked, what didn't work, why did it work. And eventually there's sort of a protocol kind of arose and I was like, okay, well, if I'm getting consistent results and I'm really seeing what, what's working for most of the people that have these, this challenge, then there's definitely something here. And that's when I started Sleep Science Academy, and that was 8 years ago. So it took me probably a good, I don't know, year and a half of just messing around and like looking at different techniques and tools and patterns and behaviors and, and, uh, And really, I'm so grateful for all the people that were willing to just be like, yeah, see if you can help. I'm like, okay, let's try this on. And so, yeah, so that's what got me into this work. And it's been an evolution of just learning and growth and understanding ever since.

That's amazing. Hadlee, I felt like you had an expression of ooze. And you're thinking of things. So that's why—

Well, I was thinking about how I am the same way. Like, I can sleep. Like, my dad, my dad is probably more like you. He literally can sleep. Like, we used to make fun of him because he could fall asleep at a party. Like, he could just like plop himself down and sleep on the couch. Yeah. You know, I can't quite do that, but I can pretty much fall asleep any night. But It is. I have said before, like, my clients will ask me, what is the most important sleep habit? Or what's the most important habit for our health? And I'm always— the answer is always, always, always sleep. And so I resonate so much with your story. And like I said, I was just undervaluing sleep. I was like, oh, I can push through or whatever, but I could fall asleep. Yeah. Pretty easily. So I was in, you know, still in that camp of not getting enough sleep, but like, you know, could get enough sleep. But I've had to learn how to help my clients who are insomniacs and who, who can't get enough sleep. When you were talking about the, you know, I kind of grimaced when you were talking about the like, I forget what the word was that you used, but basically, like, undersleeping to, like, force yourself to sleep more later on.

Sleep restriction. It's draconian. It's so painful for people. And not to say it doesn't work for some people, because there are some people that it works. It can work. But it's like, oh, you're already sleep deprived, and now you're telling this person you can only be in bed for a certain amount of time. And usually the reason why people aren't sleeping in the first place is because there's stress and anxiety. So now there's stress and anxiety. gets shot up even more. Cortisol, adrenaline's shooting up, hyperarousal. Now we're anchoring that to the bed and bedroom, and, and now we're telling them, no, you can only be in— it's like, no, that doesn't make any sense. I just— now, for someone that doesn't have any anxiety or stress, they have a healthy relationship to their bed and bedroom, they have chronic sleep maintenance insomnia, and they're open to do it, and they're okay, cool. Maybe. But to me, it's like— and I get it physiologically. Let's increase the sleep pressure. Let's play with the adenosine. Let's reset that. Let's get the circadian clock aligned. So from a biological standpoint, yeah, I see the logical thinking there, but we got to take a look at the whole person and consider, like, hey, Yeah. Anything that's going to put more pressure or focus on sleep is going to reduce the chances of sleep happening.

Totally. Yeah. I've had so many clients who are like, I just need to make sure that I don't sleep too much or whatever. And I'm like, is that working for you? Is that sleep restriction? Is that actually working? Because if it is, then amazing. But let's work on something else if it's not actually working.

And it can end.

I feel like it comes from, like, well, if you're going abroad and you're going into a different sleep time, like, okay, stay awake so that when that comes. But that's a little different than I'm in autonomic arousal, my body can't relax, or there is an association with stress and strife at nighttime. And so I'm eager to hear the better way because I need this. My past self needed that.

Yeah, and there is a better way. It really is. And the way that we view sleep at Sleep Science Academy is we view it as a teacher. So if you're not sleeping well or you're not getting enough quality sleep, all it means is there's something to learn. Something either in your life needs to be balanced or in how you're thinking about it or in what you're doing about it. And so It's not— if you have insomnia, and again, I'm talking to this specific bucket of people that have insomnia. If you're not sleeping, if you're taking all the medication, supplements, you're doing all the sleep hygiene things and sleep's still not happening for you, all it means is there's something to learn. That's it. It doesn't mean that you're broken. It doesn't mean that you're gonna have to deal with this the rest of your life. All it means is your body is communicating something to you. It's like your engine check light. Sleep's a result. It's not the problem. So let's look at what is the cause. Like, sleep's an effect, right? Just like in your work, you talk about this with anxiety. It's very similar, right?

Yeah.

And so it's up to the person to take responsibility, to get curious enough to be a scientist, to be open and willing to look at, okay, well, what is this here to teach me? And I found some very interesting things. Patterns that come up for people that it's these are what they the opportunity we actually we call when somebody has a we used to call it an off night of sleep now we call it an opportunity night it's an opportunity to learn or practice a tool or understand your mind and body at a different level so we don't say good and bad we we say you know it's An opportunity if you're not sleeping well. It's really like how the words we use, the framing we use—it makes all the difference. And one of the the big patterns that we often see, at least with the people that we serve, is control. Control is an underlying pattern. People that are doing all the trying to do all the right things, usually they're perfectionists, usually they're highly intellectual, and usually they have a big heart. They care. These are the people that find themselves stuck in this little box of I'm taking medication. I'm doing sleep hygiene. I'm doing all these things and I'm not sleeping. And, it's really looking at, well, in what ways are you trying to force and control something that we have no control of, something that's happening? That's letting go, not pushing through. And, that's a big one that when people really clearly see the pattern and the little subtle ways in which they are attempting to force and control. Something we have no control of and they let go, man, it's a mirror. It's like, it's like a miracle sometimes. It's like instantly the body responds and sleep happens. And they're not thinking about it and they're not doing any special routines or they're not in— and there's a time and a place for all of that. But for, for certain people, it's very interesting to see how that one discovery, when you can see it and you have the awareness around it, now you have a choice. And until you have the awareness around it, there's no choice. You're just in it. And so there's a couple other interesting patterns we've also identified, and I'd love to share, but I'm going to take a breath here and see if you guys have any comments on what I just said.

So I love the language of I had an ideal, great night of sleep, super happy. And then the idea of, ooh, I had an opportunity night. Opportunity night of sleep. And I'm really curious about the information that that's telling me. And I'm interested in that underlying pattern of control that you talked about and what are the ways that you're trying to force and control, because I imagine that directionality energetically of trying to obtain control is quite different than releasing control and going unconscious. And so that pattern is— I'm super interested in that, and I want to learn more about all the things.

Yeah. So that pattern alone. So if you think about it, even the terminology we use, falling asleep.

Yeah,

falling asleep. Falling is like a let it— you're falling back. There's a letting go. There's a trust, even in just our common language around sleep. And a lot of times people, they don't trust, they stop trusting themselves because they're putting their trust in something else. Often what are they putting their trust in? In a medication, and maybe a supplement, maybe a routine, and maybe a perfect environment that they think they need to have. It needs to be completely quiet. There can't be any noise. It has to be this way. It has to be that way. It has to be all of these things, all of these conditions. Which create a lot of constriction in the body and a lot of pressure in the body. And then the body, of course, responds to that.

So this is why you were talking about how when you're talking to people who are sleep maxing, that's why it's detrimental for these people.

100%. And it's so frustrating because the people that are not getting the sleep that desperate, they feel like they're starving and sleep's their food. They're online looking to these amazing experts as well. And, these experts are talking about sleep hygiene and the neuroscience of cold dark rooms and all the things, which is amazing and beautiful and great for those other 2 buckets. But, this bucket, they're like, man, I'm doing everything right. And, it's so frustrating. It's so frustrating. And, it's also people often get to a place where they feel very hopeless in that insomnia bucket. They're like, man, I'm just— that's it. There must be some weird thing that I can't figure out that has my body not being able to sleep. And sometimes they get to a really dark place. We've helped people that have been literally suicidal. Like, people become alcoholics because they're, they're taking the Ambien, and then the Ambien stops working, and now they're going to, you know, you know, one of the benzos or whatever it is. Those eventually stop working, and now they're— They're drinking a bottle of wine every single night, and it gets to that level of desperation. And these are healthy function— I'm talking like very successful, healthy functioning people that are doing this. Like some of them are doctors and pharmacists and therapists and, you know, moms and business owners. It's not like— it's very interesting where people go when they They get to that place of they feel like they're doing everything and nothing's working. And that's the people that we help. We can definitely talk about these other 2 buckets too, because I love— I mean, it's so fun. There's so much information to talk about within this whole realm of sleep.

I want to hear about the other 2 buckets.

What's that?

I think we're saying the same thing. I think we're both saying that we want to hear about the other 2 buckets, and if we have time, then we can come So this first bucket that you're talking about is like the bucket that I like peek over. I'm like, how would I pull myself out of this? And so I want to know more about that from my own personal, but I also think it's important for everybody to also get their needs met. And so to hear about the other kind of patterns you see.

For sure. Yeah. So, so the, the large portion of the population is really, they don't really think too much about sleep and they're doing things that are getting in the way of their bodies getting into deep restorative sleep. So they're eating too late at night. They're getting blasted by all of these devices, the blue light from the devices, the hyperarousal that comes whether you're aware of it or not, the comparison from being on social media. There's all of these things that are getting in the way from people getting into the deeper stages of sleep. And I really believe one of the reasons why we're having an epidemic of men that have low testosterone and fertility issues is because this large portion of the population, they're not even aware that their bodies are not getting into these deeper stages of sleep. They're not aware that their caffeinated beverages are keeping them from getting into the deeper stages of sleep. They're not aware of eating late at night and how that's impacting their deep sleep and REM sleep. They're not aware of— Yeah. They're just not aware, right? And because it's not painful enough and they're not really seeing the direct correlation, they're not very motivated to prioritize, to do the things to actually— that would make such a huge difference. So that's a— I would say that's the biggest bucket. And to me, I'm like, oh, that's the bucket too of people that are getting in car accidents because they're not getting enough sleep. But it's not— they're not quite in that other bucket where they're obsessing over it and they're anxious. They're just— it's just not— that's the bucket of, you know, sometimes nurses or doctors that are in the operating room. I had— I was in a hospital, uh, well, giving— I wasn't giving birth, but we were giving birth to my son. And I looked at one of the doctors, one of the doctors, amazing, well-rested. I could tell. I was like, this guy He's, he's our main doctor. The other doctor, great guy, huge heart. I looked at him and I got scared. And I heard him say to the, to the nurse that he's been up since— I forget, it was like— but I looked at his face and I look at people and I could tell if they're well slept or not. And I'm like, good God, this guy's operating on people. He's about to assist and operate, you know, on my, my wife. And That's a big portion of the population that are just, they're underslept. And if they're getting enough sleep, it's not the restorative sleep that they actually, their body's craving. So that's, and there's so much, so much to talk about. Often with that population, I try to put a little fear in them.

Yeah.

Because, because it's like, wake up, wake up, wake up, wake up. You're missing out on this amazing gift. That could help in so many areas of your life, protect you from Alzheimer's and dementia, help you emotionally regulate, be more creative, have more energy, you know, feel your hormones to connect better with your spouse and be more intimate. Like, that's, that's this bucket. Sleep maxing bucket. That's— I'm kind of in that now in that bucket. And we can go there too, because there's some weird stuff like mouth taping and red light therapy and there's some sleeping on an incline. There's all these fun little things that we could talk about there as well.

I want to validate or kind of emphasize the second bucket that you were talking about. I did a pulse ox sleep study last night. And I'm going to do another one tonight. So yesterday I went to an airway dentist, and so their expertise is helping identify signs that the airway may not be open and optimal. It may not be categorically apnea yet, but as you were saying, Devin, is that people can experience symptoms of deprivation in sleep or oxygenation long before they're snoring and they would have apnea on polysomnography. And so I'm really eager to learn more about that, where so many of us, I think he was saying over 60% of us, especially people who had orthodontics, were pulling in our teeth and we're narrowing the airways so that if you are sleeping, you may not be getting sufficient oxygen. And then the body is having to produce more cortisol and adrenaline and have forced breathing. So you may not be getting into that deep restorative sleep. And then we're all running around with risk factors for, as you said, Alzheimer's and depression and car accidents and other inflammatory states, fertility changes. So that second bucket, I think, is really important. And I love the idea of a functional structural approach as opposed to, like, CBT-I. Where it's like we're trying to talk ourselves or habit or even unhabit ourselves into releasing control and falling asleep. But looking at, is there a structural obstacle to cure here? What is the data that this sleeplessness is providing me so that I can figure out what needs healing and how? So I love that, and I really wanted to emphasize that second bucket there.

For sure. And it is important to— and there's a lot of reasons why people have sleep apnea. Right? It could be structurally. It could be the myoglossus muscle, the muscle that supports the tongue, isn't strong. There's actually a really cool device that came out of University of Miami, I think, like one of their pilot programs, that sort of shocks your tongue. And it's almost like, you know, those commercials in— maybe it was like in the '90s where you put those things on your abs and it kind of like six-pack abs without

My husband bought one of

those. Did it work? Does he have a six-pack?

He was like, my abs are so tired, and then he quit using it.

So

it's, you know, sorry, Paul.

Well, listen, hey, I don't know, maybe those things work. I don't know. It kind of sort of sort of makes sense, uh, I guess if you had— I don't know. But any— so they have this device that you put in your mouth That sort of acts— it sort of stimulates that muscle through electrical current so that people that have that snore or they have mild sleep apnea because their tongue is slipping back there. So, there's some really novel ways of solving some of these oxygen issues throughout the night. Structural dentists for sure if you have a deviated septum. If there's something structural, it's good to get that examined. Also too, the face, the, our face structure and the muscles in our neck. It's, it's very interesting. There, there are exercises you can do to strengthen the muscles in your neck and to strengthen your jaw. And there's this gum that you can chew. It's like a whole other thing.

Whoa. But that's like bucket 3 over here. Yeah.

Yeah. Maxing sleep, maxing sleep

gum,

hooking up.

We're jaw maxing. Um,

electrocute my tongue. I don't care. Will I sleep better?

No, I mean, that's— this is, this is definitely where— and it's, it's a real thing. It's, um, it's some— and some people unfortunately have to wear those terrible things called CPAPs.

Yeah.

The, the most non-compliant medical device out there and probably the most important.

Hmm.

But it's just, you know, you're like Darth Vader and it's, it's really— but yeah, I mean, breathing, obviously In terms of survival, it's air. Next is water. Then it's sleep. Then it's food and movement. So sleep's third, but air is number one. So if we're not breathing, and I think that's also another reason people are experiencing a lot of sleep issues as well, is just we're not, we're not breathing. We're anxious. We're stressed. We're shallow breathing. We're not getting enough oxygen. And of course, there's a cost to that. We're taking our days right into our nights. So, but yeah, it is good if you're somebody that wakes up, you feel like you get enough sleep. And what's enough?

Yeah, I was going to ask about that because I've had clients who are like, well, I get 7 hours a night. And I'm like, is that enough for you though? Are you tired all day?

So, for some people, that is enough. A lot of people make the misconception though, they think, and I used to make this misconception as well, I'm in bed for 7 hours, so I'm asleep for 7 hours. Right. But, if you actually track your sleep, most of us, even if you're not aware that you're waking up, you're awake at least 45 minutes to an hour throughout the night. You're just not even aware of it. You're coming in and out of the sleep cycles. You're just unconscious for that. And so just because you're in bed for 7 hours doesn't mean that you're getting 7 hours of sleep. And that's where sleep devices and sleep tracking are very helpful for these other 2 buckets, actually all buckets, especially if you're getting support. If you're not getting support, it's not helpful for that insomnia bucket. But—

Can you tell us a little bit more about why that is so people are aware of that?

Yeah. So people that, if you have chronic insomnia, trouble falling asleep or staying asleep 3 days a week for longer than 3 months, and you've, you're doing all the things and sleep's still not happening, if you start measuring your sleep, all it's gonna do is create more frustration and more obsession. That's it.

That's me.

Yeah.

It's like, okay, my, my Oura Ring, my Whoop strap, my Apple Watch, my whatever it is, is telling me I slept like crap. And I'm,

yeah,

I'm doing all the things that I feel like I'm supposed to do and I'm still not getting enough sleep or deep sleep, or I'm waking up and I don't know why. the hell to do. And now I'm really frustrated because I spent a lot of time and a lot of energy and a lot of money already on trying to solve this. And so it just creates more frustration. And if you were working with a practitioner— like, we use the Oura Ring at Sleep Science Academy because we found it helpful for our protocol to see when people are actually implementing what we're asking them to do. They can see it in their data, and then we can also look at their data, and then we can also make recommendations based off of what we're seeing in their data. Kind of like getting a blood test. If you got a blood test, he's high cholesterol. Okay, we have choices. We can change our diet. We can get on this medication or supplement. So, but really you can't. It's very difficult to improve things if you're not measuring it, especially if what we're measuring is unconscious. When we're not, there's no. So most people are very they they have a skewed perception. perception of how much they've slept and how well they've slept. And so that's where these devices are very helpful. They're not 100% accurate, nothing is, but now they're precise. And that's what I look for. I look for precision. So that's consistent. Is it going to give me a consistent reading? Mm-hmm. And then you can see, hey, when I'm doing this, whatever it is, Is that improving my sleep or is it not? Is it detrimental to my sleep? Like, I know if I have alcohol, I know it affects my sleep. I can feel it and I don't need a device to tell me, but actually seeing it is helpful because then it makes me make that choice of, okay, tonight's probably not one of these nights I'm gonna have a glass of wine just because I want to be fresh tomorrow and I don't want to wake up. And feel lethargic and foggy.

So what do we do for people who are in bucket 1? They've tried all the things. So I'll share with you a little bit more about my story is that I was told that my sleep issues started when I was like 4 years old and my mom went back to work nights. And so I was at home with my dad, who I didn't really know because he'd been gone in the Marine Corps for a long time. And so they said that I would wake up in the middle of the night screaming. And so my whole life I've been a very, like, light sleeper. And I would go to sleepovers as a teenager and all the girls would fall asleep and I was awake.

Mm-hmm.

And so I was always sensitive, but I didn't put too much thought into it. Until 2015 when I was bossing too hard, as Hadlee said, girl bossing too hard. And then I just stopped sleeping. Yeah. And so then I tried to girl boss fix it. So I was like in Pitta mode, if you will, like trying to fix it, doing all the mindfulness, hypnosis, neurofeedback, supplements, homeopathy, Ayurveda. Acupuncture, all of the things. I ended up taking a ton of diazepam, a ton of Ambien, antidepressants, and they even gave me an antipsychotic.

Wow.

And I could take all of these things and not sleep. And so that was a decade ago, and I still very much struggle with sleep. And the biggest thing is falling asleep. And I've mastered the mental space. So the CBT-I, Wouldn't be very effective for me. It's more a body-based sensation, and the body won't relax. And in fact, when it was at its worst, when I was going to sleep, I would wait, I would like jerk up and I would be suffocating. It would be like, like someone took one of those heart things, it's like, ow. Yep. And so that's like ongoing to sleep. So it was very body-based. And so For those people that resonate with my experience, God, I'm so sorry that you guys are going through that. It's awful. What are the things that we can start to look at and do differently with that data?

Yeah. And, man, I can just— a lot of people, we work with people like yourself 10 years ago. So everything that you just said is very common for people that we So sad. It is. It's like the most scary place to be.

Yeah,

very. And that's part of the challenge is when the body is in so much fear. But here's, here's, here's the first thing. So when you look at sleep like it's a problem that needs to be solved, that's— you're already setting yourself up So this is what a lot of people do. They, they're going to do all of these things. Hey, I'm going to do all of these things so that I sleep.

Huh?

What that does is it puts sleep on a pedestal. What put— putting sleep on a pedestal, and it's tricky because it deserves to be on a pedestal. What that does is it creates more pressure, more pressure and tension and focus to sleep. So it's these, we call them the 3P patterns. And it's the problem solver pattern. So looking at sleep like it's a problem that you need to solve and then doing things to solve that problem when sleep's not the problem, sleep's a result. And then putting it on a pedestal, and it deserves to be on a pedestal. So it's tricky. That one's tricky because people are like, only if I could sleep, if I could just sleep, everything would change. My hormones would balance, my skin would improve, my gut would heal. And that's a lot of that's true. And what does that do? It props it up even more, and it's like makes you want it even more. And the more you want— sleep's one of these, the few things in life that the harder you try at, the worse you get at. And the more you do things so that you sleep, the less you actually sleep. So you could be doing all of the massage and the acupuncture and all of these different things, even whether you're aware of it or not. to sleep. And just that association is putting it on a pedestal, making it a problem, and then sending you into some sort of control, perfectionistic control of like, hey, I'm gonna figure this out, I'm gonna do something. And it's not a doing, it's more of a letting go. It's the opposite. It's like often we find it's— we help people do less. Like, let's do less. How do we, how do we get to a place where we're not doing as much and it's not even a focus? And from that place, usually the body relaxes. There's a release. There's a, there's like an energetic unwinding that can happen. And this happens even for people that have had, like yourself, patterns from childhood. I've seen it with people that have really like trauma with a big T that have had like really traumatic situations in the middle of the night with caregivers and different things. And it's an unwinding. And so it takes time and it takes awareness and it takes a willingness, I think, also to be open to meeting the resistance that's created. With a lot of compassion and a lot of presence and a lot of grace, and then practicing letting go. Like, a big part of acceptance is we say it's not a strategy, it's a way of being. And acceptance is when you can accept what— like, if you're gonna sleep or you're not gonna sleep, either one's okay, and you can really honestly own that. It creates the highest opportunity for sleep to happen. If you're trying to use that as a strategy of, oh, I'm going to accept my sleep, now you're making it about sleep. Now you're trying to— it doesn't work. So that was actually really surprising to me, how powerful the practice of embodied acceptance. And that's a practice, and I think it's an awareness, and it's something that's cultivated and It's something that we can learn. That actually has the biggest— makes the biggest difference for people that are really in that place. They're like in it. So I'm not sure if you've ever come across, uh, Dr. Cain, any of those types of practices, but we see it every day work miracles for people that are in those places that you once were.

So How do we get through, like, practically speaking, how do we work through the mental gymnastics of I'm laying in bed, I've been laying in bed for 6 hours and my body isn't letting me sleep. And I've been just sort of like, well, it is what it is and I accept that.

Get out of bed. This is another thing. Get out of bed. Do not lay in bed. This is a huge mistake. One of the biggest mistakes people make is they lay in bed and their body's activated. Let's just call it activation, and they're staying in bed.

Mm-hmm.

And logically, it's like, well, if I'm not in bed, then I'm not— there's not even a chance that I'm going to sleep. I don't want to get out of bed. It's not comfortable to get out of bed. But that is the thing that needs— wherever there's like the most resistance, often that's the thing that we need. And that makes all the difference. All the difference. So get yourself out of your bed. Do not lay in bed even if you're coming in and out of sleep. If it's— there's any type of activation in your mind and body, remove yourself from the bed and bedroom because you're just going to anchor that and associate that.

For how long? How long do you get up?

This is where it depends. So we say go to your place and have a plan. And your plan is not to get back to sleep. And we instruct our clients to only get back in bed when they actually feel the sensation of sleepiness. And if they don't get the sensation of sleepiness, then they don't get the sensation of sleepiness and they don't get back in bed. So that's a little bit—

So what do you do when you get out of bed? What, like, go hang out on your couch? Do you read? Probably not watch TV, but— Yeah. And this is another

super common question where people get really confused or want me like, do this, then do that, then do this.

Yeah, which is the opposite of what they need.

Do whatever would— do something that you would enjoy that's relaxing and calming. And so for some people, actually, that is watching Seinfeld or something. We try to be a little bit flexible around That it's like, just do something that you would enjoy that wouldn't be hyper-arousing, that wouldn't activate you. Don't read a novel or read a business book. Don't do some— so it's really about not doing things that are gonna like wake you up or activate you or like stimulate you more. And so for some people fold laundry, some people do puzzles, some people pray, stretch. Some people journal, um, some people clean the kitchen, you know, like people do all kinds of stuff. And for us, it's not so— it's, it's more important. It's not just what you do, but it's how you think about what you do. Mm-hmm. So if you're doing the thing, and this is a really important distinction, if you're doing it with any sense of I'm doing this so that I can get back to sleep, It's not going to be effective. And that's subtle. That's a subtle thing.

It's so spiritual. I guess what I keep thinking about, it's like the inner self. And yeah, it reminds me of the quote by Carl Rogers, famous psychologist, where he was like, the curious paradox is only when I fully and completely accept myself can I change.

And spiritual. No, it absolutely— you know, it's, it's interesting you say that. When you study spirituality or any religion deeply, you'll find in all religions there's an element of acceptance in all of them. And well, actually, I can't say that because I haven't studied all of them. In all of the ones that I've studied, and I've studied quite a few because I'm very interested in, in spirituality and different—

Same.

Yeah, but it is a spiritual thing, right? To get to a place of just being okay with something, even if it's not what you like or what's comfortable or even what you want, but truly to get to a place where you're okay with it, that actually creates the most harmony in the body. And then sleep happens.

Yeah, it's detachment from the outcome.

Yeah, in all the ways. The mind is such a little trickster. It's so tricky. Our minds are so tricky. Like, I've seen people, man, that have— are so strong-willed and they have like the trickiest little minds. And like, it's, it's so fast. I get fascinated by it because it's just like the little ways that people do things and they're not— it's like, can you see that that's actually like you're still trying to control? And they're like, oh my God, I didn't realize. You're right. But it's like, it's so subtle sometimes. These, at least in the work, again, the work that we do, things are very subtle. It's often the subtle things that make the biggest difference when realized. And most of us, most of the time, we're in our boxes. And it's very hard to take the box off unless you have someone else that's being— asking you questions or challenging you or helping you gain perspective in a different way, or— It's tough. We all live in our own box, whether we're aware of it or not. That's something totally different.

Completely. Totally. That's why we hire coaches and practitioners and the help that we need, because we have blind spots. We all do, including the coaches, including the people that we're hiring.

Yes, it doesn't matter.

Exactly.

Yeah. It doesn't matter what level of understanding you get to or what level of presence or wisdom, you're still in a box, you're still in a body. And that means that there's still things that you're not aware of or can't see. That's why it's so amazing to have practitioners and people that can help us see that we're in a box.

Probably why our pets don't have insomnia. Literally don't care. Like, I'm awake. Okay, I'll walk around and bite something or

chew on this toy

or like, go

take a drink from the water bottle or—

yeah. And then I'm feeling a little sleepy. I'll plop down right here.

Like, such—

I'm like, I'm going to feel like crap tomorrow. Yeah.

And that's a real thing. Like, one of the biggest things I think also that keeps people up that this is a pattern for This is really common, is they think about how terrible they're going to feel the next day. And that's a really scary thing. And then we're taking the past and we're bringing it into the present, projecting into the future. And then there's, there's an energetic emotional residue that stays with us. Usually it's fear or like just like frustration. Yeah. Which I think fear's below that. And yeah, so that's a lot, a big thing people get caught in. They're like, they just can't seem to let go of the idea of if they don't sleep, how, how much pain they're gonna be in the next day or how little they're gonna be able to get done or how terrible they're gonna look or how, whatever, fill in the blank. And that people get really hung up on that pattern massively. And then once they can kind of, again, accept it or see it, And can let it go and just be okay with it, then all of a sudden the pressure gets reduced and the body responds and sleep happens.

Yeah. So what I hear you saying, Devin, is that I need to go and live on a beautiful beach where there's no pressure. That was it, right?

No, that'd be nice. That's not reality.

Hadley, I'm going to retire.

No.

What I'm really saying is just be like your Your little puppy. Just be like your dog.

Yeah.

Just care less. Don't be careless, but be like, yeah, be like Shiva. Just care less and be—

The fact that your dog's name is Shiva also, like, can we get more spiritual with this conversation?

Yeah, that dog, I mean, that dog has some wisdom for sure.

She does.

She's probably like, she's got more of the answers than us.

Yeah.

I love that, though. This has been incredibly valuable and thought-provoking for me. Hadlee was laughing at me earlier because I'm always taking notes during episodes, and I feel like I have more questions than I did when I started, if you can believe it or not, because I like to boss babe my sleep, which I'm going to work on not caring at all about sleep. And so I'm sure I'm not the only one with more questions. So how can people find you and learn more about all the things?

Yeah, so sleepscienceacademy.com, and then we have a great YouTube channel. I think it's great, at least.

I do too.

Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah, so the YouTube, we got lots of free information on YouTube and Your Sleep Coach podcast, which you are an amazing guest on that got released, I think, like last week.

Yeah.

Go and Your Sleep Coach, it's on all the streaming apps and all that. Yeah, that's where, that's where people can find us. So we'll be there.

That's amazing. We'll make sure to share all of that and we'll tag all of your accounts. And sincerely, this is such a great topic and thank you for the work that you're doing. We desperately need it. And one last closing question before we go is, do you have like, what was the most outrageous bucket number 3 sleep hack that you've seen people try to do?

Oh my God. I

mean, I feel like tongue electrocution is up there for me, but maybe it gets like higher. So as we— what would you say takes the cake?

Yeah, I mean, oh gosh, there's— well, the mouth taping thing, which has become a very common— I shouldn't say very common, it's not very common, but that was the thing that when I, when I walked into the bedroom with— I had tape on my mouth. This was like many years ago before it got super cool and trending. My wife just looked at me and she was like, what the hell are you doing? And we had our bed on stilts, so it was angled like this. And I was doing all kinds of crazy things like grounding our mattress, which I think is a great thing to do, by the way. That's something I think that everyone should consider doing is grounding their mattress.

How do you do it?

Yeah, so there's a couple of companies that make different products. And there's a company in particular that I really like called True 47, and it's silver. They make this silver thread, and silver is very conductive. And what you do is you take this little plug and you put it in your outlet in the grounding portion of the outlet, and then you just— it's like an alligator cord and it just snaps on to your silver. And grounding is important. Yeah. Most of us, most of the time, are not Totally. We're disconnected from the electromagnetic field of the Earth. As hippie and weird as that sounds, it's true.

No, we love it.

Okay, cool. So, yeah, that to me is, I think, one of the simplest, lowest-hanging fruit things you could do is just ground yourself while you sleep. And there's a lot of benefits to that circulation. It helps just with inflammation, a lot of benefits. But yeah, the sleep maxing thing, I think that— yeah, I think you're right. I think the tongue shocking might be the furthest. Yeah. I mean, again, there's all kinds of things that people do. There's all kinds of weird, strange things. I actually had a client once. This is kind of interesting. The only way he could sleep is that his wife would drive him around in the middle of the night because that's, I guess, what maybe his parents did. Yeah. Yeah. So it gets bad. I mean, it can get bad out there. Yeah.

His

poor wife too.

I know, right? What an amazing woman.

Yeah. They need one like a Waymo. Just plop them in a Waymo. You guys heard that?

Well, we were able to help him. We got him out of the car, onto the chair, chair to the bed, chair to the bed. But yeah, it's— yeah, the trick is not to get obsessed about it. And I think it's amazing. We're asleep for a third of our lives. So why not really get curious about how we can make that one-third maximize the two-thirds that we're actually conscious? It's like, why not?

Awesome. You're doing God's work, my friend.

I was just thinking the same thing. Literally doing God's work. You're making us— you're making the population into more compassionate people by giving people the gift of sleep. Oh, man.

Yes.

Well, thank you for— I accept the recognition, and I tell my team that all the time because it's— I do feel like it's God's work, honestly. And I feel like that's why I'm here, is to help people. Because when people are well slept, they are nicer, less road rage. Less, you know, kicking the dog, just nicer people. And when people are not slept, I know how I get when I'm not well slept. I'm not like the nicest person. I'm not.

Totally. Yeah. No, I feel the same way. It's so good. Thank you so much for being here. This has been such a rich, amazing conversation. I can't wait for everyone to listen.

Oh, thanks for having me. I really appreciate you both. Thanks for the work that you're doing in the world. And, uh, yeah, hope This served the people that felt called to listen to it.

Yeah. Thank you.

See you later, everyone.

Bye.

Bye.

And then we wrap. This is my fancy way of telling our editor.

Very technological.

Well, then you're just wonderful. Thank you. That was a great conversation. And I know that I have so many clients, especially because they're like, oh, you have problems sleeping? Maybe you can help us. And so they call me and they're gonna love your work. I'm gonna send all of the people your way. So—

I appreciate it.

Yeah. Yes.

Send us, send us your worst and we'll, we'll send them back.

I'm, I'm your worst. I'll, I'll probably be calling you.

Oh no. Like seriously, if you, I mean, if you're really still in it and you kind of feel like some of what we talked about, I'd be honored to get you on the other side. We can work, we can work out a deal. We'll get you sleeping and then you send us your worst clients.

Oh yeah, I would be the loudest, proudest testimony. It'll be great. Oh yeah.

Oh, for sure.

That sounds amazing. Thank you.

Yeah, yeah. Most of my clients are in bucket number 2, but there are some who are in bucket number 1 and I will send all of them to you.

Oh, I appreciate it. Yeah, thanks. Yo, any, anyone that we can help, We're trying to help as many people as we can. So, yeah, if there's someone that you think it would work for, send them our way. We'll take good care of them.

Amazing. All right, y'all, it was great to see you.

So great to meet you.

We'll email you, Devin, with the go-live dates and files and pictures and all that stuff. Stay tuned.

Nice. You guys are way more organized than me, so kudos for that. I need somebody like your husband who does all that. I'm like, man, We had somebody, we had somebody like that, and then unfortunately things didn't work out last year. And so now we're trying to like replace this person. You really do need somebody to do it. It's a lot.

Let's, let's email about it because I might have a VA that might be helpful for you. So pop me over an email. Oh, cool. Yeah, my next meeting's trying to get in, so I'm gonna log out and appreciate you all.