Can Someone Actually Get Rid of Anxiety Forever? | Ep. 118

Hello. Welcome back to the Holistic Inner Balance Podcast. I'm Hadlee of Happy Healthy with Hadlee, and I'm here with Dr. Nicole. And we are going to talk about a hot topic today. I'm very excited for this one. We've been having this question come up A lot. Well, Dr. Cain specifically has been having this question come up a lot in her world recently, and that question is, can someone get rid of anxiety for the rest of their life? Can you actually get rid of it and not have it anymore? And I think you guys are going to really like the response today. I think that we're going to get into some good juicy conversation on it. So shall we get started?

Yeah. This conversation, I've been thinking about it for a long time. And part of it came because the title to my book is Panic Proof: The New Holistic Solution to End Your Anxiety Forever. And that was one of the questions that came up. And I realized that that question was being asked from a non-Panic Proof paradigm.

Mm-hmm.

And so the way that we think about it is very, very different, pre-Panic Proof paradigm, as opposed to the paradigm that I endeavor to teach in the book Panic Proof, that I see in my clinical practice, that I see with my patients, that I've seen from traditional methods. And so I'm actually grateful for the opportunity to, to have this conversation. And so I'm kind of curious, Hadlee, like, when you hear this question, like, what comes up for you?

Well, to me, I think it's— I love, I love that your answer is, you know, ending anxiety forever. I think there are going to be people who are going to be like, no, that's not true. And so I'm really excited to have this conversation. Like, what comes up for me is like thinking about how some people are like very strongly in the camp of like, no, you have— you will have anxiety forever and you just have to deal with it. Um, and so I love that your answer is the opposite.

Yeah. So when we think about anxiety, if you were to like shoot out some words that, that come up for you when you think about anxiety and the disease of anxiety and the diagnosis of anxiety and what we mean when we say anxiety? What are words that come to mind for you?

Well, I think of it through the paradigm of Ayurveda. So it's potentially a little different from a typical person thinking about it, but I think of it as There's fear. And I think of it as vata. Like, there's a lot of vata involved, and there could be other doshas involved as well. We've talked about how, like, the different types of anxiety can manifest with different doshas. And if you're a new listener and you're like, what the heck is a dosha? You can go back and listen to some of our episodes about the doshas and specifically about vata dosha. But So I think of it in terms of— Vata is the element of air and ether. So I think of it, there's some fear involved and there's an airy quality, so it feels ungrounded, not grounded in the body. Those kinds of lots of like movement and movement in the mind, but then also like, can there— that can be manifested in the body as well. There can be like a lot of movement with nerves and also like muscle twitching, things like that. So that's kind of what comes to mind for me.

Mm-hmm. So you're kind of describing like a psychological biological process. That is giving data about what kind of an imbalance may need to be restored, right?

Yes, totally. Yeah. And to me, from my paradigm of Ayurveda, it's like, yeah, you can balance the doshas and you can totally come to a place where you no longer have those things happening for you anymore.

Yes. And to answer my own question too, because I want to contribute to what you're saying, is when I think about anxiety and being an anxiety warrior, warrior myself is I think about disempowerment. I think about my body is taking control over me. I don't know what's happening. I don't know why it's happening. And so people feel like they're out of control. They don't have power. They don't have control. They don't have agency. They're living on the edge of their seat and they're wondering when it's going to happen again. And our dominant medical model treats anxiety as a problem to be solved. And treatments target suppressing the signals from anxiety. And so like, a sassy answer to that question could be with the right amount of benzos, you can never be anxious again. And I mean, I feel like that's pretty inarguable. You could just, you know, benzo yourself into oblivion and then you won't feel really anything.

Right.

But I think that there's an even richer answer to that conversation. And so if we think about— I want to think about 2 scenarios. One scenario was, let's use the example of you told a story on a previous podcast episode that we did, Hadlee, where you were at the top of this mountain and you were in autonomic arousal. This was your birthday episode, right? Yes. haven't heard it, you gotta go listen to it and learn all about Hadlee. And so you tell this story. What mountaintop was that in?

It was in Iceland.

So you're in Iceland, you're climbing this mountain, and you're having these thoughts of like, oh my goodness, this is very dangerous, this is really scary. You were describing to me like, what was the word that you used of like gravel and like sand?

It was very— it was chossy. It's so funny because it's such a, like, bro-y word. It's like, that's— it's like really chossy rock. Like, it just means like it's like crumbly.

I'm not a bro, so I didn't know that word. Or maybe I just don't hike and get enough—

get out enough.

So you were having anxious thoughts, right? You were having worried, scared thoughts.

Mm-hmm.

And then your body was Responding. So for those who haven't listened to the conversation, like, what was happening in your body?

It was— my stomach was in knots. I felt kind of like a buzzing sensation in my hands. And I would say probably like, I always, I always describe it as sort of like a buzzing sensation around my forehead. It's not like on my forehead. It's like around my forehead when I feel that anxiety and fear. Constriction in my chest, kind of like slumped over shoulders, like, you know, that protective stance. And like wobbly, just like wobbly and a little trembly.

Mm-hmm. Maybe a little bit less like coordination where it's like, Like, totally tremble, but like a little bit of like incoordination as a wobbly.

Totally. Especially when I would pause. When I would start moving again, it would kind of like instinct would like kick in. But then if I took a break, it was like, what's going on? Yeah.

Totally. And so these sensations that you described, so you're on this mountain, you're climbing, you're in this chossy terrain. And so then you're getting gut anxiety, stomach anxiety. So your stomach is in knots. And so you're having a physical response in your gut. You're getting this buzzing around your forehead and in your hands. So this is a manifestation of nervous system anxiety. Some of this is epinephrine and cortisol. So we have the less blood flow going to your extremities. Mm-hmm. Maybe even less blood flow to your nose and your forehead. It's sending it to the runaway muscles. You have constriction in your chest, so the muscles are getting tight.

Mm-hmm.

Um, you might have been hyperventilating a little bit, maybe even a little bit higher altitude. So it's possible that you were getting a little bit more acidic cuz you're maybe hyperventilating a little bit or less oxygenation. So that could have accounted for some of that. And then all of that adrenaline is like making you have more energy in your muscles. So you might be trembling a little bit, less coordinated. So your body is in autonomic arousal, right? And so your body is releasing these physiological responses, and those physiological responses are passing through your brain. And then what is your brain doing?

Panicking.

It's panicking. It is a response. To context that has been programmed into you, right? So it's a programmed response. So then if we look at another scenario, like maybe public speaking, right? Like, have you ever gotten nervous going up on stage? Maybe you don't. You love it.

Typically.

Or your wedding day where, you know, you're such like a non-anxious person. A lot of us May get really anxious publicly.

I get anxious in other situations. Just—

I know, like, things too that you're like, actually, I really like those. So I'll use an example of— I was so excited for my wedding day. I was like looking really pretty. And so when we're excited, some of us may have similar sensations. Oh my gosh, like, I'm so excited. But I feel like my— I have butterflies in my stomach. I have a knot in my stomach. My hands are shaking. I've seen brides that are so excited walking up the aisle and they're trembling. They may be crying, right? And so the chemical process that happens when we're excited is biologically the same as when we're frightened. And what is different about it is the contextual assignment that we give to it.

It's so good. Yes. It's like,

yes.

Is it anxiety or is it excitement?

Is it anxiety or is it excitement? And the whole message of the Panic Proof Paradigm is to change how we look at the data that our body is giving us from a place of, oh, this gets me emotional. Like, I'm just getting goosebumps as I say this because, my loves, you have power Your symptoms are data. It's just chemicals. And then the brain has been programmed to assign meaning to these chemicals. And so when we use the language anxiety, that is a narrative, that is a meaning that we are applying to that experience. And my goal for you, when you read the book Panic Proof, is to be like, oh, this is my body telling me what needs healing and how. And I have an opportunity to alchemize these symptoms into something that gives me more power, more control, more agency, more life, more energy, more information, more ideas, and more healing, right?

Oh, my gosh, it's so good. It's like taking the parts of vata that are not serving you, and you're literally transmuting them and making it so that these parts are like— it creates excitement and creativity and movement in the ways that you want it to create movement and all of the things. I mean, I don't have a lot of vata in my constitution. I love hanging out with people who do have a lot of vata because I'm like, I need a hit of your— just that movement and that creativity and all of the things. So good.

So can we end anxiety forever? And I believe that it is a frame of mind. It is a value system. It is a judgment about what is happening. And I really believe a big part of that is a personal sense of power. The difference between like, I'm excited about my wedding day versus like, I'm on the top of this mountain and I could fall off, it's really personal power and agency. Like, I'm choosing to walk down this aisle and get married. In a lot of circumstances, I understand that's not— we can't just say across the board that. I understand that. But generally speaking, the difference is power. You didn't know if you had power to not fall off of this mountain. Right. You did the best you could, so you, you felt disempowered. You felt afraid. You then had a corrective experience where you pushed through that fear and you did conquer it. And so you repatterned yourself. But when people ask the question of, can I really heal from anxiety forever? The answer is you can choose to. And the 4-step Panic Proof process that we talked about is from the book Panic Proof. It walks us through exactly how to do that, how to heal the nervous system, how to reprogram the context of the brain. I remember when I was learning Transcendental Meditation, My teacher would like— we would be doing the meditation, and then I would be like, oh my gosh, I'm having this thought or this feeling, and does it mean this? And he's like, your brain just wants to attach meaning to everything. Just notice it. It's just your body releasing stuff.

Totally. I remember the same process. I did it with him too. Yeah.

And at the time, I was really annoyed with him. I'm

like, yeah, of course.

It's like very CBT trained in the beginning of my career. And so I was like, no, I think I really need to psychoanalyze this and like give meaning to it.

But I'm the same way. Yes. I was literally in— I was in school for biopsychology. Yeah. It's like, yeah. Yeah.

So the question is, is am I just having an argument of semantics? Is like, can you really end your anxiety forever? Maybe the question is, can you never go into autonomic arousal ever again? And that, I think, is a more interesting question. Is that, do we want to live in a vessel that never gives us data of autonomic arousal? And I would say, like, I'm grateful for autonomic arousal.

Mm-hmm.

I'm grateful that I can run on a treadmill and that my heart rate can go up. I'm grateful that when my partner gives me a kiss and I haven't seen him in a while, that I get, like, butterflies in my stomach. I'm grateful that when I'm driving and someone tries to T-bone me in Phoenix, that I get this, like, flush of, of maybe worry and worry or fear, like, and then I can respond quickly before thinking about it. Like, I'm grateful for that. So I would— the goal of being panic-proof isn't to end autonomic arousal, but rather to change your experience of what that autonomic arousal means and what it's trying to do for you and what you can do in response to that.

Ah. Preach. It's so good. I love it. I did not know what you were going to say, and that is just, like, even better than I could have thought.

Thank you. I'd be curious to hear what you guys think and if you agree with me or if you have something to add or if you totally disagree. I would love to hear it because, you know, really, this is a co-creating journey of what it means for each of us to do to become our own self-healers. So let us know. I'm curious.

Yeah, let us know. Message, message Dr. Cain on Instagram and also buy the book. Buy the book. Yeah, buy Panic Proof. We'll put the link in the show notes because it goes into obviously all of this, but it also gives you a roadmap for actually coming to a place where you no longer have anxiety anymore and you are— you have the tools and the capability to actually transmute all of these things into an experience that you actually want to have in your life.

I love it. Thank you so much for asking that question, Hadz. Thanks for being here.

Yes, thank you so much for illuminating us on this topic, and I'm really excited to hear from you all, and we'll see you in the next episode.

We'll see you next time.

Bye, everyone.