Can the Enneagram Help You Heal from Trauma with Brendan Cole, LPC | Ep. 129

Oh my gosh, what an awesome conversation. I'm so excited for you guys to listen in on all things Enneagram. And also, I love the way that we kind of framed this episode where we got to talk about the Enneagram and how it relates to healing trauma, because I think a lot of times, you know, people are like, oh, the Enneagram, like, cool. It's like, you know, a personality type, kind of fun to learn about and then, you know, just move on. But we talked about how to actually dive in and utilize your type and the types of the people around you to be able to actually be in relationship with them and also to heal trauma and like parts of our past that how we responded to different situations and different events in our lives might have been influenced by just like the person that we are. It might have just been influenced by the type that we are in the Enneagram. So it was really fun. What did you think?

I was wondering about Enneagram, and I feel like we answered that question.

Yeah.

And I also love that we got into my Enneagram, your Enneagram, Had, and then Brendan's Enneagram, his wife's Enneagram. We even talked about how the Enneagram could be a tool for helping people who have received diagnoses like schizotypal and schizophrenia. Like, what other Enneagram podcasts are you guys going to listen to where that aspect of the Enneagram is explored? And you got it all here. And I had so much fun. So this has been probably one of my faves this year.

Totally. And Brendan is a wealth of knowledge. It was just so fun, just the 3 of us chatting. It was— you guys are going to love— like, you'll feel like you're just in the room with us.

Yes. Are you ready to dive in?

So good. Let's do it.

Hi there. Welcome to another episode of Holistic Inner Balance Podcast. I'm Dr. Nicole.

And I'm Happily Hadley.

I am Brendan Cole.

Brendan, we're so happy that you're here. You're gonna talk with us about the Enneagram, and we're gonna go beyond the hype, and we're gonna actually look at the Enneagram from a trauma-informed lens. I'm really pumped about it. And so Before we jump into all the goodies, let's learn about who Brendan is. So, Brendan, can I read your bio?

Absolutely.

Yeah, make sure that— we'll make sure that I get it right because Brendan is pretty outstanding. He and I have known each other, by the way, y'all, for like 5 years. We worked together at Health for Life. He's a very trusted, incredible clinician. So there's like a little slide of my endorsement before we get into all of the fun brag board techies. So Brendan Cole is a therapist, uh, in Grand Rapids here in West Michigan, and he serves people both in person and telehealth. He has extensive experience working with adults, young adults, and teens. And I want to interject too that he is amazing if you are looking to improve athleticism, athletic performance, if you just want to level that up. That is something that I personally can endorse that Brendan is awesome at. He's helped people overcome issues with athletic performance, business performance, relationship conflict, trauma, depression, anxiety, and so much more. He is trained in EMDR. We have other podcasts about that. So if you're interested in learning what this 4-letter acronym is, we've definitely got the answer for you. He also knows cognitive behavioral therapy, narrative therapy, strength-based therapy, and he helps you meet your goals. He's a dad, and he has an amazing, beautiful, brilliant partner named Libby. His daughter is Hattie. And I just love your family so much, and I'm really glad that you're here. So thank you, Brendan.

Thank you. It's very good to be here.

So one of the things that I hear a lot at Health for Life is Like you walk into a room and someone's like, oh, Nicole, of course you just suggested that in the group chat. You're such a 3. Yeah. And then I'm like, not false. I am, I am an Enneagram 3. And you would say that because you're an 8. And then someone over here is like, hey guys, simma simma now. And we're like, you're such a 9. And so we have these kind of Russian roulette dances where we're kind of spitting out these numbers as forms of identity or explanation about who they are. And so tell us about this phenomenon. Tell us about the Enneagram.

Yeah, so as far as personality types are concerned, this is probably my favorite means of exploring myself, getting to know other people, especially within relationships. But the concept of the Enneagram essentially teaches that there are 9 different personality styles where each one of us tend to then gravitate towards or adopt as a child to kind of find meaning or To cope or feel safe. And from there has been used to be a very powerful, valuable tool to kind of learn not only about how to strengthen some of those personality characteristics of your type, but then also how to grow or stray away from maybe some of the more negative tendencies, or they're also called like the sins of your— of your type or your number. So you'll kind of know if you find your number or your type when you're reading it, and you're like, wow, this is great, this is awesome, I like this. And then the next sentence you're like, oh, I don't like that at all. That— sorry, I just dropped something. That doesn't feel good at all. Make you kind of feel like a little sucker punch to the gut or something like that. That's usually when you found your number, because it'll kind of point out maybe some of those Parts of you maybe you don't like that are a little bit more difficult to kind of reconcile with. So that's what the beauty of it is. It's a— it kind of highlights the full version of you that is all beautiful and unique and allows you to kind of go from there. I had a good friend tell me this once, and I don't know if this is true of the Enneagram, but he told me this and it's stuck with me ever since, where The true goal of the Enneagram is to kind of not be identifiable as any number type, you know, kind of achieve this certain level or status of health that people would have no idea if they were to kind of put you in that box. Now, is that possible? I don't know, but I kind of like that challenge mindset behind it, kind of achieving the better version of yourself. So that's how I'd summarize the Enneagram.

Hadlee, what is your experience with this?

Yeah, I love— I, let's see, when was I introduced to the Enneagram? It was probably like 7 or 8 years ago. Um, my, my parents introduced it to me, of course, because my parents introduced me to all of the, like, the personality tests and the personal, personal development things. Um, and Yeah, I resonated with mine so much, which Dr. Cain and I have the same one. We're both 3s. Nice. And yeah, that's the achiever one. And there's definitely some really great things from it. And then there's definitely some things that are more of that shadow side of it that I have Like, been working through since I learned about it, right? Is, and accepting, accepting, and then also, you know, working to balance them out. Like, you know, a lot of times we talk, we talk about the doshas in Ayurveda on this podcast, and it's about really, it's about noticing the, noticing our type. and accepting and loving it and, you know, being really excited about all of the strengths and stuff. And then we can do things to balance out the weaknesses and the things that maybe don't feel so good. So really excited for all of, all of our listeners to, to hear, hear more about the Enneagram. And if you, if you don't know your Enneagram yet, I'm really excited for you to, to learn your type.

We'll put a link for a free quiz in the show notes. So if you're listening to this and you're like, ah, I need to know what my type is. You can definitely— it's like a 15-minute quiz. There is one that you can pay for, but I found that especially if you're just sticking your toe in the water, that they seem to give you pretty consistent answers. What do you think, Brendan?

Yeah, I would agree. A lot of reading material too. You can kind of read on each one as well. So yeah, quick quizzes and lots of reading to learn about all of them and kind of Yeah, explore more of that.

Right. And you can kind of read through and be like, this is the one I resonate with. You don't have to necessarily take the quiz. It's like, this is just which one I resonate with. It's not like determined by the quiz itself.

Well, I also— I'm kind of curious about the nuance in when you take the quiz and your ego state. So we've talked about on this podcast internal family internal family and ego state and parts of ourselves. And I'm kind of curious about— this is a little bit more like, just like went for it, you know, probably should do a flyby. And Brendan, you can kind of teach us about it in general. But then I'm super curious about like, okay, so if I'm in a particular activated ego state, and this particular family system is more my 12-year-old, and then when I was 12, I dealt with stress in this fundamental way, and I dealt with trauma in this fundamental way, or my biggest fear at this age was this way, versus like, if I'm like feeling really happy and in love and supported, and I just got an award, would I answer that from a different ego state with a different number? And then if that's the case, then is there a value of the identification of being a number? Or are we really a composite of numbers that tend to ebb and flow throughout time? So there's the baton, Brendan, we're running a relay race. I just passed you the baton. What do you got?

Nice. Uh, well, first off, I, I forgot to mention, I am a, I am a 7 wing 8. So I am the enthusiast. Um, with the wing 8, the wing 8, the 8's a challenger, um, which we'll get more into. 8 is one of my favorite numbers, not because I'm a wing 8, but actually because I feared 8s the most. Um, and then— Same. Yeah, I've learned that they are like one of the most misunderstood numbers. So, and then I married an 8. My wife's an 8. I was like, that doesn't— how does that happen? Um, actually, when I learned she was an 8, I was like, oh gosh, get out. You know, this is not— this is terrifying, right? But got to really learn the true intricacies of an 8 and the beauty behind it. Um, but yeah, when finding, uh, finding out your number and learning about it, it can definitely change through time. You know, like I said before, it can manifest at an early age, and depending on what has happened or what's resolved or unresolved, it can continue to persist and represent different numbers or types. Um, knowing where you're at too, you know, you can— maybe you, you know, think you're a, you know, a number 2, for example, right? And that is a, that is a different number when you're on health. So when you look at the Enneagram, to kind of be more specific with what I mean by that, You'll pick your number, and it'll kind of explain to you what numbers and qualities you try— you tend to kind of go towards in health, or when you're in stress, or growth or stress. That's what I mean. And so a lot of people could be mistyped when they're in a state of stress or a state of unresolved trauma or things like that. And you can also find yourself changing over time when you've outgrown things or matured or left the house that was maybe a more stressful environment. So yeah, the environment— your Enneagram can definitely change, and being open to that change, um, I would say is very important in that process. Now there's this fine line we get to ride between making it your full personality versus completely avoiding or keep, you know, keeping yourself out of it. Um, but we'll be able to touch on that in a little bit, I believe.

So I'm curious about the different types and how, how we even arrived at the concept of the Enneagram and the different types. And I know that, and correct me if I'm wrong, but as I recall, the Enneagram was created to help us understand the ways that we respond to adversity, stress, and trauma in our lives, and that By looking at these patterns of responses, they've kind of created 9 main different categories. And so can you, can you tell me if that's correct or provide the nuance to that and kind of tell us more?

Yeah. Well, uh, a lot of what you'll read about the Enneagram will kind of show your motivations by, uh, fear and desire, but they'll kind of say that they're also one of the same, where if you don't have that desire, you're going to be stuck in a state of fear, or you're almost afraid of not having that core need met in some way, or that desire met. So yeah, so I guess as far as each of the numbers, right, like we can, we'll kind of go right into it.

Yes.

So 1, the reformer, core need, the core needs of the 1 would be more of to be good or to be right. So that's like to achieve that would be The ultimate, ultimate goal for a 1. If they achieve that, they're like, I am at— that's where I'm at. If they're not there, they may feel, I don't know, out of control or insecure or anxious about— and I guess a lot of these numbers are gonna be anxious about the relationships in their lives, which we'll be able to talk about. But then we have the Type 2. The core need of the 2 is to be wanted and loved. Mm-hmm. We have the Type 3 being valuable, being admired. We have a Type 4. This one I always had a hard time with. The Type 4, I always think of like they want to distinguish themselves or be like authentic or different than everyone else and like define or distinguish themselves as such. I actually don't know a whole lot of 4s. So if any listeners kind of tap into that or have their input on that, I'd be curious as well.

I have a 4 wing.

Yeah. DM us. Yeah. You're a 4 wing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I like to be different.

Yeah. Interesting. I'm a 2 wing.

You're a 2 wing. That's, that's so predictable, Hadley. You always want to help everybody. So the— we can expand on that. So let me, let me recap and make sure that I got— because there's 9 of them and I, I don't want people to like zone out with this because I want— this is really cool stuff. So you said Type 1 is, you said the reformer. And their basic desire is to be good, to have integrity, be balanced. And then you kind of talked about like fear and desire being like 2 ends of the same thing. And so then that is like being what the Enneagram research that I've seen is like being bad or defective or evil. Yeah. And then we can like get into like the wings and stuff. But then you said Type 2, which Hadlee has this as a wing. This is the helper. We see this a lot in the healthcare profession is, you know, the desire is to be loved to— if they go to the 1 wing, you know, so you have a 2 and on the right side you may have a 1 and then on the left side you may have the host of the, the achiever, but there's this desire of being loved and the fear of the helper is like, I'm not lovable.

Yep.

And then the 3, which Hadlee and I both identify as like, my value comes from what I achieve. And if I don't achieve and I'm not valuable, then I am worthless.

Mm-hmm.

And then number 4, you said, Brendan, before I interjected talking about myself again, is that this is the individualist. And so these people, they, I've always heard that these types, you tend to wanna be really different. You wanna be an individual. You don't wanna just go with the flow. like everybody else. And there's like a lot of sentimentality and big feelings that could come with that. Did I kind of track what you were saying so far?

Yeah, no, perfect. Absolutely perfect.

Is that the, like, that's the kind of like artsy type, right? Too, like—

Yeah, the Bohemian is one of their subtypes.

Yeah. Okay.

Yeah, that's, yeah, that's the vibe I, I'll get from 4s as well. Yeah. Awesome. And we have a Type 5, the Investigator. Their core need, desire, being competent, being capable. They tend to be very, like, perceptive types. Very— I don't know, the 5s I know are very, like, organized and like to be kind of in control in that way, but not always in an unhealthy way, but just to know everything and be competent, make sure that they're capable. And we have a Type 6, the loyalist, Courtney, being secure, being supported. And then we have a Type 7, which is myself, being satisfied, being content. Being content was oftentimes very hard for myself, always wanting the next thing, having a hard time sitting still. The moment of conversation, you wouldn't even get boring or disinterested. I'm like, all right, time for the next thing. being scattered. So, you know, to be satisfied, be content, is a very leveled, relaxed, um, 7. And we have a Type 8, the Challenger, uh, you know, powerful, dominating type. The core need for the 8s is being more independent and the desire to, or feel capable or confident in their ability to protect themselves and others. They're like giant Like mother bear, father bear kind of personalities, um, who tend to come across as like abrasive or hard to connect with, which is why they're the most misunderstood type, in my opinion. And then we have the Type 9, the last one, the peacemaker, uh, being at peace, uh, being harmonious with others, connection, things like that. Be the core need of a Type 9.

So to summarize what you said, so the Type 5 is, you said that that's the investigator type. Their desire is to be capable and competent. Brendan and I have a mutual friend who's like so in their 5 and her, she needs to know everything. And if she doesn't know something, it creates a lot of stress. It makes her feel useless or incapable or incompetent. She gets really embarrassed. And so she like needs to solve all the problems and know all the things. Yeah. And then you said the loyalist, which that's my blind spot, Brendan, is I really struggle to like identify and understand the loyalist. But I know that it's like you feel that way too.

Yeah, I'm like 5 and 6 has always been kind of a black hole for me. I'm like, I don't really get it. I don't get those types that much.

Apparently Sigmund Freud was a 6. Whatever that means.

Yeah. Yeah.

Uh, Ellen DeGeneres is a 6. I don't know.

Yeah.

Whatever. Frodo Baggins was a 6. I, whatever that means to you.

But these are like, that makes sense.

Frodo, right? They're, they're like committed. They like security. They're reliable, hardworking, trustworthy. They can also get really defensive and evasive. So they need security and support and they get really activated or stressed out if they feel like they don't have support and guidance. And then number 7, you call the— I call that either the Adventurer or the other name is the Enthusiast, right? Yeah. And I've always thought of these as like, this is like the Enneagram type we all wish that we were. It's like, I wish that I wanted to have adventure and like, I just need to, to do high jumps and like, what's the pole jumping, right? With your pogo stick. Pole vault, not pogo stick.

That too, though.

That too.

Pogo stick.

So it's like, but it's not necessarily like, I need adventure, but that desire to be satisfied, like you said, Brendan, to be content and to avoid pain. Like, they're playful, high-spirited, practical. But they can become scattered, undisciplined, and you, these might be people in your life who it's really hard to pin down because maybe they don't want to be, they don't want to lose their freedom. They don't want to be tied down. Yeah. You resonate with that?

Yeah.

The challenger. I've, I'm really eager for this conversation because I've always struggled with people who are in their 8, but unhealthy 8s, I think, where they're like, Really trying to protect themselves. And the way that it can come across sometimes is like they're looking for confirmation that we're out to get them or attack them or controlling them. Yeah. And so then it can feel like walking on eggshells a little bit. But I love that you used that kind of maybe mama bear for description of an 8, especially if they have that 9 wing, they have that Peacemaker side. So the 9 is that peacemaker, like you said, where it's like— this is my husband, he's, he's a total peacemaker. Like, stress and unhappy feelings and a lack of inner stability or a lack of peace of mind or peace in his environment creates a huge attachment trauma where he feels a loss, separation, anxious, stressed. So his entire mission is to create peace. So

Well, same with my husband. Totally. We're both threes and our husbands are both nines. So

it's why we have so much fun hanging out, the four of us. It's like, oh yeah, we get it.

That's great.

Yeah. Paul and Todd just tolerate Hadley and I. We're like, we're gonna do this, we're gonna do that. And we're like, and they're like, oh my gosh.

Yep. Pretty much.

So tell us more, Brendan. I'm loving this.

Yeah, I— you had me thinking there for a second. I was— I kind of looked at my— some old wedding pictures recently, and I— all my groomsmen are either a 9 or a wing 9. Um, and I was like, interesting, why is that? Where, where from my own life or development did I feel drawn in that direction? You know, like that piece. And maybe, I don't know, some of the calm or stability that some of them provided. Um, I don't know. I, you know, but that's had— that had me kind of thinking about that a little bit. But, um, yeah, I think so. Kind of pivot— not really pivoting a little bit, but kind of going into the trauma-informed lens. I love the Enneagram as a source or resource for people to use in the process of healing, but not as the, like, foundational, like, intervention or the reason behind, like, we go deeper or why they're healing in any way or form, because you kind of need a— you need more. You need more than that. And I word it like that because people can put their full identity in their number and It could actually cause more harm than good. It eliminates growth. They put themselves in boxes. They can put other people in boxes. And that's something we definitely want to be careful about, which is, I think, also why I like the approach of trying to be unidentifiable as any number, right? Because you're trying to, you know, but you can take a lot of pride in your number, right? There's a lot of beauty in each of our numbers. And so navigating that for yourself is why I love implementing it into a trauma-informed approach, because it has helped people feel so validated on a very deep, almost like childlike manner. Because for this entire time, they may have felt like they were, you know, crazy or defective or something like that. And then they read their number and they're like, oh, this is actually okay, or this is normal. And this is a result of an experience I had and where I went to, to cope or feel safe, right? And they can kind of almost pick up where the number leaves them at and then go from there. Uh, use, use it kind of as like a sounding board or reference point. Um, and it's different, right? People, you know, children can have almost like the same experience but react differently. Like, uh, an Enneagram 1 child who felt heavily criticized by Both or one or both parental figures may have experienced self-judgment as a child, whereas the Enneagram 8 may have experienced betrayal, right? And so they're able to kind of, again, like in their timeline of life, pin where they were at or where they learned something like that, and then start healing from some of those old wounds. Again, using the other trauma interventions that are out there, and then this as like a reference point. Of course.

Can I interject with this? So to kind of recap what you're saying is that the Enneagram can be a therapeutic tool for understanding ourselves, understanding our trauma, understanding how we experience stress and how we cope. And it's important to be mindful to not use it as a bypass, where that's kind of what I was jesting about in the very beginning of like, oh, you're such a blank, you're such a 3, or you're such a 5, where we identify and it's like, well, I'm never going to stop doing X, Y, and Z because that's just who I am. And you're encouraging us from a trauma-informed lens. Okay, we, we offer radical empathy and clarity as to why you may think, feel, and behave in certain ways. And then we can use the strategies with a greater sense of understanding to create opportunities for healing. Right? Is that kind of— am I tracking?

Yeah, perfectly.

Yeah, I think that is the tendency for us with any system. With astrology, it's like, oh, yeah, sorry I was so mean to you. I'm an Aries, so what do you expect? Or like, oh, sorry about this. I'm a whatever. And, yeah, that can bypass the actual learning experience and what we can move through. Yeah. Instead there. And I love that you are talking about how I think a lot of times when we think about trauma, we think that, oh well, something happened and that caused this response in me. But I love how you're saying, well, actually, with, with having the Enneagram as a tool, it shows us how we might have responded to something that It's not just a cause and effect, like this, this happened to me, this traumatic thing happened to me, and so therefore I responded in this way. But really, it's like there, there can be the same cause and a different effect based on kind of who we are, who, what we were just like born as. Even, you know, conditioning and stuff contributing to that. But it doesn't have to be. And I think that's— It's a really great explanation of why people respond in different ways to different, to different traumas and why people respond to maybe something that was like absolutely devastating for one person didn't affect the other person as much or just affected them in a different way that seems like it didn't affect them as much, but it did it just in a, in a different manner because of their, their type.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Love that too. Yeah, I, I think it highlights the responsibility each of us have, right? The Enneagram is like a proactive tool, right? It's a, it's, it's something to be more, maybe even more specific with how you can take responsibility now that you kind of have a framework of how you work or how some of your tendencies work, or the ones that you align with at least. Um, so it's a proactive approach and a Again, the responsibility, I would say, is that key word there, which I love— taking responsibility for how you cope or your tendencies, your behaviors, and all that. Yeah, so I love that.

Totally. The, the next part of, of looking at this from a trauma-informed lens to kind of move, move forward and learn more about what you were introducing is that there's growth And then there's stress. And so can you teach us a little bit about that?

Yeah, so as you know, the listeners here kind of dive more into their type, they'll start to kind of see that there'll be like a lot of the visuals, especially when you find it online, will provide like a circle of each of the numbers and then almost like a triangle of how they're kind of— how you're connected to all the different types. And I'm sure as you read through each of the types, you'll see different parts of yourself in all the numbers in some way or form, and it's the one that you most align with. Um, and so, you know, I mean, if we were to start with— we'll just go with 8, you know, because we're gonna, we're gonna have fun with the 8 today, I think. Um, so, and we'll talk more about each of the numbers because it can kind of get a little confusing, but you have the 8 Enneagram type. And an 8 that is in a place of growth, okay, or moving towards growth, are gonna kind of resemble more of the strengths or positives of like a 2, of like a Type 2. And a Type 2 are like, you know, they're— when I think of a 2, I think of them almost like behind the scenes constantly. They're like very caring and they're proactive in how they are helping and doing things for their friends, family members, sometimes at the expense of themselves, which isn't always good, but are very selfless and very intentional too. And then, but then in stress, you know, we'll find them like 8s will find themselves like at a 5, more of like the negative sides or the faults of 5. I'm trying to find a different word for that. I mean, we all have faults, but— Um, where you— they can almost find more the abrasiveness or lashing out, or, um, which could be different for a different number, which is again why 8s I think are the most misunderstood. Um, it's like the most caring, the most thoughtful, or it's like the other side of the spectrum where you're like, run away, this is an actual bear chasing me down, you know.

Um,

So as far as growth and stress is concerned, that is also a great way where if you're having confusion with your number, you can look and see if you're like, okay, I think I'm between like a, you know, a 2, a 3, and I don't know, we'll say a 6. You can look at where each of them go to in growth and stress and kind of see if you identify with any of those specific stages, and you can kind of do a process of elimination. And identify where you're at in this journey of self-exploration and healing, um, to kind of, yeah, really identify who you are, right? So it's like, oh wow, maybe right now I think I'm a— I can be like a 3, but I, if in hindsight, was in a state of stress that entire time, I was in a really crappy job, living environment, roommates, whatever, when in reality I was actually I'm actually a 6 when I'm in health because of the not— like, okay, so let me backtrack. Okay, so a 6 in stress goes to 3, a 6 in health goes to 9, right? So if I am trying to pinpoint what I am, and I think I'm a 3, but then I notice I'm in a stressful state, I could look to then where a 6 goes to in health, which is a 9, and see if I can match or align with any of those. Quality. So again, this is where it can get confusing, where you like, you find yourself bouncing all over the place. You can almost like create this giant roadmap on your wall with all the red yarn and just like, you know, try to figure out where you're at and what's going on. But it's also the fun of it. You get to learn about a whole lot of numbers naturally in that way. I

highly recommend pulling up a picture of this because I put— I just pulled up a picture and it just makes so much more sense when you have the— just, just literally Google Enneagram and you'll see there's like a circle and it— with all of the numbers around it and then all of the lines that go to the different numbers. You'll understand so much more of what we're talking about.

Yep.

I'm curious, can you expand on— so we know that there are levels of development and you were kind of talking about that earlier in the conversation. So there's unhealthy 8s, so which would be like level 9. And then as the number decreases, it indicates a greater number of health all the way to 1, which is like an 8 at their best. And so what is the difference between an unhealthy 8 who's in a level 9 versus an 8 that is then in stress going to a 5?

And so when you say that, are you— you're not talking about the types anymore when you're saying like the level 9, the level 1. This is not the types anymore. It's like a level of how healthy or unhealthy it is.

Yeah. And so they— so the Enneagram Institute kind of teaches about this and like levels of healthiness. So you can be a really stressed out, out of balance 8. And so that's a level 9. And so this is— I'll read you the description of it and you can see why people get scared of 8s. Is that this is what the Enneagram Institute says is in a level 9, if they get in danger, they may brutally destroy everything that has not conformed to their will rather than surrender to anyone else. They're vengeful, barbaric, murderous. They have sociopathic tendencies, generally corresponds to antisocial personality disorder. Wow. And so like, that's like the greatest amount of instability that we see in a type 8. Versus like a healthy 8 at their best. It says the level 1 is they become self-restrained, magnanimous, merciful, forbearing. They master theirself through self-surrender to a higher authority. They're courageous. They are willing to put themselves in serious jeopardy to achieve their vision and have a lasting influence. Historical greatness, true heroism. So that's like 2 ends of the spectrum of an 8 and then everything in between. And so, you know, we all probably ebb and flow along the spectrum of our, our Enneagram type. And so what I'm curious about, Brendan, is what is— how do you explain that? So if someone is like a level 9 Type 8, but then they go to a 5 in stress, what does that mean? And if you don't know the answer to that question, it's totally fine. I know that's like a very woo question. That's what I do.

Yeah, no, it's all good. Well, an 8, I mean, as far as sticking to the 8 theme, if they're at a 9, I don't know if there really is anything I could do at that stage until they figure that out themselves or have that reason for it. But, you know, knowing more about them, I guess, you know, and I think we'll touch into this a little bit as far as how to integrate relationship dynamics if, you know, you have an 8 in your life or something like that. But the going to a 5 in stress aligns with the 8 so well because an 8's desire is to be so, I don't know, like capable or— well, the last thing an 8 wants to feel is helpless, for example. The last thing. Absolutely right. And so, but because this 8 is so— they're such a strong type, instead of Owning up to these feelings of helplessness, I kind of like to think of like an animal backed into a corner, right? What's it going to do? It's going to fight. It's going to lash out. It's going to block off those feelings or emotions and kind of put on this more tough exterior, this tough front, be more abrasive to protect themselves, right? So, and that's, so that's where, you know, when you think of like a 5 going into stress, it's The basic fear of a 5 on its own is already to be incapable, right? We talked about our mutual friend that's a 5, right? One needing to know everything, needing to be competent, right? Um, and so helplessness is one of those terms used to describe a 5, or a basic fear of a 5 at least. And that's one of the last things an 8 needs or wants to experience in that regard. And when it gets so bad, right, it can then manifest into like a personality disorder, right? Because it's just the wound is so deep and then manifests as almost this completely new personality motivated by their defense mechanism.

What a compassionate way of approaching severe mental illness symptoms. And so I looked at 5. And so we have the same kind of scaling. We have level 9 is at their worst and level 1 is at their best. And so, if we just look at somewhere towards the unhealthy level, so if we look at a Level 6, so we're a Type 5, pretty unhealthy. As you were saying, Brendan, is they can take an antagonistic stance toward anything that would interfere with their inner world and personal vision. They can become provocative and abrasive with extreme and radical views, cynical and argumentative, which sounds quite a lot In theme with what I was just reading about the 8, where it can then, if it gets even more severe, a 5 at a level 9, like the least healthy a 5 could be, is they may engage in self-harm or have a psychotic break, be explosively self-destructive. And we see this in more of a schizotypal or schizoid or schizophrenic type overtone. And so if we were to look at somebody who's coming in, And they're psychotic and they're aggressive and they're engaging in these very antisocial patterns. If we were instead be like, oh man, you satisfy the criteria for schizotypal personality disorder and we're going to suppress you as much as possible, is what would the implication be if we were able to see, okay, this may be a level 9, 5 stress, Of a Type 8 and look at the basic need of that person.

Yes.

And then use the strategies that we have outlined for the Type 8 in combination with the strategies for the Type 8 that is in stress to a 5, and then actually help that person heal. That's, that's, I think, the trauma-informed implication that you're touching on.

Yes. Yes. Uh, yeah, I, I love the relationship approach. And again, so to this, the website that you're Talk about for the viewers, Enneagram Institute will actually provide you links you can click on where, okay, I'm a wing or I'm an Enneagram 7. What does that look like if I was in a relationship with someone who is a 1 through 9, whichever one, right? You learn that your partner is a 1, you get to click on that 1, you kind of get to see like, oh, how do we complement each other? How do— how maybe we don't complement each other? I'm pretty sure there's a section for like potential avenues of stress or potential problem areas, which is great to read on. But yeah, from that trauma-informed lens, it's a— again, I like the word proactive here because we're not putting anyone in boxes here, and it allows you to walk alongside them in their journey to achieve whatever they're trying to achieve You know, within their story. And knowing that, knowing where they're at, knowing their number, them knowing your number can be just such a valuable tool to provide whatever need that is, right? It's, it's, you think of love languages, right? If, you know, my wife's love languages are different than mine and I'm serving her in a way that I want to be, you know, loved, right? I'm doing the right things, but it's It's not her love languages. So how good is it, right? Sure, she can appreciate it, but I'm not necessarily meeting her needs. So knowing what these numbers are allows you to then put those efforts that are inherently good, but funnel it into whatever that specific number is with whoever you're working with or in a relationship with.

Right.

I love that example.

Oh, yeah, go ahead.

Oh, no, I want to hear what you were gonna say first, and then I'll give you—

well, I just, I love that it, that it gives us you know, there's like the personality type part of it, but it also is like, but these are what your needs are as this type. Like, this is what you need in order to feel loved. And, you know, I always call it like in balance because that's kind of my Ayurvedic lens. But this is how you— this is what you need to basically feel good. And then we can look at that from a lens of like relationship and be like, this is what my partner needs to feel good, to feel safe, whatever the need actually is. You know, I want to provide that for them. And then, you know, you can communicate your, your needs as well based on your type. Not that we put ourselves completely in a box, but, you know, it's a really great tool for being able to communicate our needs and to, and to acknowledge the needs of our, our partners and just friends. people in that we're in relationship with.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I, as a clinician, I've used the Enneagram quite a lot to help me create, uh, mindfulness strategies and self-help techniques for my clients that feel much more specific and useful, as opposed to just sort of the general things you're going to get out of a CBT workbook. And so here's the example I wanted to share. Of a way that you can support personal growth for somebody who is in their Type 8 Enneagram. It's just the first one that's on the Enneagram Institute website. So it writes, it goes against the grain, but act with self-restraint. You show true power when you forbear from asserting your will with others, even when you could. Your real power lies in your ability to inspire and uplift people. You are at your best when you take charge and help everyone through a crisis. Few will take advantage of you when you are caring, and you will do more to secure loyalty and devotion of others by showing the greatness of your heart than you could ever by displays of raw power. I love that.

Yeah, very powerful. So good. Yeah, I, uh, I often, I like sharing the story, uh, related to my wife and learning more about the Enneagram and the 8 and how if an 8's vulnerable with you, it is like, it is huge. It is like, it is one of the, it is bigger than, you know, any other number in my opinion. If you, if you realize they're vulnerable with you, you're like, oh wow, this is, this is very serious, right? This is, this is a big deal. Um, and then the other side too, if If you like, one of my good guy friends is an 8 and he loves the banter, right? He loves that abrasive banter, but it's fun. He wants you to be a part of it, right? And he's like, he'll know that you're in or you're gonna be connected with him if you kind of dish it back, right? He'll lay out the most, especially playing sports, like just a well-crafted insult and all he wants is you to play, right? He wants you to dish it back and then that's how you kind of foster that close connection there. But, you know, with my wife, right, you know, think of me as a 7, just always going, always looking for the next thing. You know, I would go open a bag of chips, eat the chips, fold them back up, throw them in the drawer, do this again every couple hours, right? And my wife came up and she's like, hey, can you put a clip on the bag of chips when you're done using them? Right? And immediately I was just like, well, I'm going to finish them by the end of the day anyway. Like in my head, I was like, and inside I was like, I'm not doing anything wrong. Like I'm just going to eat these. That was my argument. That was my justification. But in that moment, I kind of realized my wife has an 8. This was like she was being vulnerable and coming to me to ask me about something that was very simple, right? And how I respond here was going to dictate a lot of how our conversations were going to be handled moving forward, right? And then I really sat there and I was like, a clip for a bag of chips isn't really that big of a deal, right? But it's much bigger than the chip clip. clip bag. It's really hard to say. And more so about what that conversation represented, right? And it was an act of vulnerability. And I was like, I can do that for you, right? Just, it's, it's not that big of a deal. Um, but noticing my own reactions behind it, my own justifications, and then being able to change it based off who that person I was interacting with was huge. And that could be huge for you and learning about those people in your life and how you respond and engage.

Well, let's talk about the basic fear of, uh, Type 7. It's to be deprived and be in pain. And so you're like, I want to eat these chips, and it's so many more steps to have to fold it up and clip it. And I don't want to be deprived of the pleasure of just having the convenience. I could just walk over, stick my hand in, chomp some chips, and walk away so that you can meet that desire to feel content and satisfied. And so what I love about this story Is that you're acknowledging that need within yourself. You know about that need.

Mm-hmm.

And you also know about her and her needs, and you chose to show her love and care and compassion without compromising yourself by putting a clip on the chips and not making something more into it. It's not as though you were being deprived of something like really fundamental, like you picked your battle, right?

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

I can still get the chips. I just— there's one extra step, and it's well within my means. Yeah, I can— I'm capable of doing that, right?

I love that. Yeah. So if she had asked you something that, you know, was actually depriving you of like a more fundamental need, then it becomes another conversation where it's like, well, these are my needs, these are your needs, and now we can, we can go deeper in that. So I love that.

100%.

Yeah. Like, if she was like, you can't go to jiu-jitsu anymore because I have a book club I want to go to during jiu-jitsu.

Yeah.

Now that would be a conversation. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Hadley, Brendan's a— he's like a jiu-jitsu king. He's so good.

Oh my gosh. Amazing. I should connect you with my husband. He loves— like, he hasn't done jiu-jitsu, but he loves— he's done capoeira and some different Like types of, uh, martial arts and stuff.

That's awesome. Yeah, that'll be fun to connect in that regard. Yeah, I love jiu-jitsu.

Yeah.

So before we run out of time here, we touched on this, but I don't feel like we, we covered the wings in as much detail as I was hoping. And so what the heck is an Enneagram wing and how is it relevant?

Yeah. So how to best describe that? I think I almost word it differently each time I describe it to someone, um, and I kind of try to simplify it at— well, as far as explaining it initially so people don't get stuck. I'm like, what am I, a 2 wing 8? I'm like, no, that's not how it works. So your wing will be on either side of your number, so you don't have to go super far in exploring, uh, you know, more That. But, um, so when I think of your wing, it's kind of more of like a, like subcategories that you align with. Um, and again, so it's going to be either or. So I'm a 7 wing 8. I could have been a 7 wing 8 or a 7 wing 6. And you can kind of explore more of what your wing is by doing some of the same things you did to find your number, by exploring the growth, exploring the stress. And there's usually enough Uh, examples or specific, uh, character traits that will make that part easier for you. Um, and honestly, I had a hard time figuring out what my— like, my wife was an 8 because her wing 9, for example, was so strong, right? So she was almost silently— she's like silently strong. Uh, I'm like, you're— I think you're a 9. She's like, no. I'm like, okay. Um, whereas, you know, 8s that are a 7 wing, right, 8 wing 7, you know, have that strong personality of an 8, but then that like high energy of a 7 as well. So you'll know, you know they're there, you know they're in the room kind of thing.

Yeah.

Um, so those are fun to kind of like— I look at it as like you have your number and then you're almost armed with, uh, like some sub-characteristics or qualities of yourself in addition to that that you can kind of use to further Um, you know, understand yourself and others in that regard.

So does everybody have a wing?

Everyone has— I would say everyone has a wing. Um, yeah, I'd say everyone has a wing.

And it's only on one side of— like, it's only from, like, your number. So I'm a 3, and so it would only be a 2 or a 4?

Yes.

Correct.

Is that right? I always, I always thought I had balanced wings.

Oh yeah. Okay. So I, yeah, that would be, so that would be outside of even my scope. I would be, I guess the percentage of that makes sense, right? Maybe you like lean, like if you're feeling real good or, you know, you'll lean towards one wing versus the other versus maybe one in stress. Or if you, like you said, balance, you pull from both sides. Um, I want to explore more of that. I actually, I haven't, I just, I get, I got stuck in the, oh, if you're, you're either one or the other, but I don't necessarily think that. is 100% right either.

Let's let— if somebody who's listening to this, let us know, weigh in. What do you think? Maybe I just want to have— I'm like, I'm like Mortal Kombat and I got like this skill over here and that skill over here. So I'm like a 3 and then I got my helper side and then I got my 4. Like, I like to be different. I, I have a pair of parachute pants, you know, I was talking about earlier at lunch today about how I'm going to wear those out tonight.

They're super cute. I've seen them. Are those your green ones?

Do I have multiple pairs of parachute pants? These are— they're like shiny silver.

Oh, okay.

David Bowie night.

Love that. Love that. But yeah, I feel like for you, like when you said that you were a wing 4, I was like surprised because I was like, you totally have the wing 2. So yeah.

Yeah, I love— I feel like great value from being able to feel useful caring for people. But I also, when I take the quiz, I know the 4 questions in there. I'm like, oh, this is a 4 question and I want it because I want to be different, which is such a 4— just such a 4 thing to say. Yeah, I always retake it because I'm like, I just want to be a 4. I don't want to be a 3. Um, But I can be whoever I want to be regardless of what the quiz says, I think.

I

would agree with that. Yeah.

Yeah.

I think now that you say that too, if I, you know, so I, I'm a 7 wing 8. When I notice that maybe I'm more stressed or even anxious, right? Like a, like a 6 are like known as the loyalist, but also known to be more anxious in regards to, well, safety specifically. So the people that are in their lives, finances, things like that. Those, those rise right to the surface. If, you know, overwhelmed or starting to feel burnt out or stressed, you know, it's all about like, who's in my life? Who am I gonna hang out with? Who's with me? Right. And I'll start to kind of focus on those things. So now that you say that, I kind of noticed that, yeah, maybe you do, you can fluctuate and pull from each side, but maybe, you know, I'm just more dominant as like a 7 wing 8.

I always thought that you were a 7 with a 6 wing, the entertainer.

Yeah,

but

what do I know? Maybe I'm definitely Wing 2. I like— only because I am so not a Wing 4. Like, I'm so not the, like, creative, artsy, like, wanting to be different. Like, I just want to achieve.

Yeah, yeah. So you're, you're for Sure. So an Enneagram 3 with the 2 wing, they call that the charmer. You are—

Oh, funny.

You are the charmer, charmer, hands down. You're the charmer who everybody loves, as they should, because you are charming and you are so accomplished. Like, yes, of course you're a wing 2. So you're like banking. You're like a bird and you're just banking. You're not— you're not like I'm like, nah, nah, nah. I'm like going back and forth, like leaning on my wings. And Hadley, you're just like, like banking into your, banking into your 2.

That is so funny. Oh my gosh. Yep.

I love that.

There you have it.

There you have it. Anything else, Brendan, that you wanted to mention that we need to know as now Enneagram experts?

Yeah, there's, there's so much to go on it. There's a lot of tools out there. Please look into it from the lens of being, you know, again, I would just— I can't emphasize enough— proactive, right? As a means to learn about yourself and enhance yourself and others for— to grow, to grow, not as a means to kind of default or, you know, avoid responsibility. So it's really wonderful and beautiful in that way. And you could— I mean, we probably could have done this for 3 hours because there's so many layers we could dive into with it. So have fun with it. You read through all of them, you have no idea, sit on it a little bit, then come back to it. I love telling people to read through all the types first before they even take a quiz, because they'll, they'll know, and they won't find themselves taking the quiz and answering the questions based off what they think they want or think, you know, this ideal version of themselves. They'll kind of, um, and usually it's the one that kind of like makes you feel good and then also like punches you in the gut a little bit is usually, you know, kind of trust your gut there, you know, trust your intuition with that. Have fun with it. So.

Totally. Yeah. Yeah. I've taken the quiz before and I actually in a state of major stress, I took it a few years ago and I got a 1. And that was really interesting. And so, yeah, like taking it a few times can be really helpful because, yeah, I definitely think I'm a 3. So,

or you have an ego state who's a 1.

That is— that could very well be true because that the perfectionist tendency was like very strong in me, especially, you know, a few years ago. I've done a lot of work on that since then, but Yeah.

Ego stage religion too. I know a lot of, um, a lot of girls in my life who grew up in the strict Christian household that they are supposed to be more in line with the 2, so they just assume they're a 2, right? I am this submissive, helpful, you know, woman in the 2024 era, right? I'm a 2, you know, and I love having that conversation with Them about that. I'm like, are you a 2? Or, you know, did the Bible tell you to like that you're a 2? Or did you grow up, you know, in the, you know, the white Christian church that you're a 2 or something like that? Right. So I love, you know, religion ego states as well. Right. What was that upbringing like?

Totally. Yeah. I think conditionally. Yeah. I actually had someone tell me who, who is like an Enneagram expert. She was like, I feel like you're just a 3, but your wing 2 was because like you were supposed to. Yeah, there you go. That makes

some people angry. Yeah.

Yeah, I love

that.

And Hadley comes from a family, all but one person in her family, they're all 3s.

Yeah, well, my sister's a 2 wing 3, but then, yeah, there you go. My brother's the only— yeah, my parents are both 3 wing 2s, and yeah, my sister's a 2 wing 3, and then My brother's the rebel. What is he?

Is he a 4?

So he— I think he took the quiz once. He's, he's still so young though, it's like hard to tell, but he got a 9.

Oh,

so

yeah, interesting.

Yeah, I would say probably a 9 wing 8, but

yeah, yeah,

yeah.

We'll see how it like—

Yeah, how it evolves. Yeah, because it was a few years ago. He— I think he might have been in high school still when he took it. So like, it's, yeah, hard to say.

So, uh, one more application. So we talked about like personal improvement, we talked about relationships, we talked about identifying maybe our stress vulnerabilities. And another thing that Hadlee, your family does that I really love is your mom and dad put people's Enneagram numbers on their business cards, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. My dad has a mortgage business and they— it's, it's super helpful because with all of his employees and everything, like, they all know each other's Enneagram and so they know how to communicate with each other. It's really, really a cool tool for being able to interact with each other, not just in the— in like your home life and in your like friendships and stuff, but in your In your, uh, career as well, in your corporate— the corporate world, it can be really, really helpful too.

Yeah, I love that.

Yeah, so cute.

Yeah. So Brendan, if people want to connect with you more, what is your favorite way to be connected with? Someone hears this episode and they're like, oh my gosh, I want to learn from Brendan.

Yeah, email. Yeah, my email's always on. Um, maybe I should set a boundary with that, but I always have it on. So I just, I don't wanna, I don't wanna miss anything. Right. That's my, I think that's just a 7. I am like always ready.

FOMO.

Yeah, exactly. Right. So I'm always like, what's next? Who's going? So, you know, email's great. I'll, I'll respond. Um, like—

And we'll put that address in the show notes in case it changes over time so that we don't have it like being one email that you say in the recording and then like any year you change it. So sure.

Yeah,

we'll include that in the show notes. So for sure, reach out to him. And Brendan, I've been— love this conversation. An hour went by like in the snap of a finger. So thank you for your wisdom. That was so great.

Thank you for having me. Yeah, I had a lot of fun. Yeah, I love talking about this stuff. So yeah, it was wonderful to meet you, Hadlee.

Oh, so great to meet you. Yeah, I'm glad. I'm glad to be connected. Thank you so much. And for all of our listeners, I hope that you really enjoyed, and I hope that this kind of lights a little spark for you to learn, learn more about the Enneagram and how you can, how you can use it in a really proactive way, um, and in a way that is, that serves you and, and the people around you.

Yay. All right, all, we'll see you next time.

Bye.