Does Red Light Therapy Really Work? | Ep. 109

Hey, everyone. Welcome to Holistic Inner Balance. This is Dr. Nicole and Happy, Healthy Hadley. And today we're going to be talking about phototherapy and red light therapy. And I was sort of inspired by this topic because there are some friends of the family that swear by red light therapy. Have you heard of it, Hads?

I have heard of it. I haven't done a whole lot with it, but I've heard of it, and I've heard that there's some really cool evidence for healing and whatnot, which I'm really excited to get into today.

Yeah. And so the question that I had is, is all red light therapy created equal? What is red light therapy? And it turns out that they're not all the same. And so these family friends are going to a tanning salon and they're laying down in tanning beds that have fluorescent lights that are painted red, and they're calling that red light therapy.

That's wild.

And so I'm like, hmm, I wonder if this is actually creating physiological benefit because when they emerge, they're like, well-being is enhanced and they feel like more awake and alert and warm and healthy. And so they rave about it. And so the question is, is it placebo or is it real? What's actually going on? And so we're going to get into all of that and more in today's conversation.

Yay, I'm so excited. This is something that I've really heard of it from my dad. So it's so funny that we're both hearing about it from family members and friends of family members and stuff. But my dad has been into Huberman, if anyone knows the Huberman podcast. super popular. And so my dad has been really into learning about red light therapy, saunas, and different things like that. I have done it, I think, like once or twice, but I am really excited to hear more about what the actual benefits are.

Yeah. In this podcast, definitely be sure to check out other episodes where we've dabbled in this. We've talked about the importance of Sunshine. We've talked about using a happy light for seasonal affective disorder. And so today we're going to expand on the whole spectrum, pun intended, of light. And so let us know what your experiences are. And if you haven't, it would be amazing if you could give our podcast a lovely review. It helps us get the word out and improves our accessibility when people are searching for podcasts. That would just be amazing. amazing.

Yeah, getting out this information is like what our goal is, to help as many people as we possibly can. So if you are— if you enjoy the podcast, if you feel like other people would benefit from it, then we would really appreciate it.

So let's break down the different wavelengths of light that come from the gold standard. And so when we think of the gold standard of light, it is golden and it comes From the—

Sun.

That is right. It's this big ball of happiness in the sky, and it releases all sorts of wavelengths of light. And in particular, we have visible light, we have ultraviolet or UV light, we have infrared light, we have X-ray light, and we have gamma ray light. And we're going to kind of dive into some of these different types of light because they affect our mind, our body, and our nervous system differently. Are you ready?

I'm so ready. I love talking about light in general because I am such a big, huge proponent for circadian rhythm, like syncing with our circadian rhythms. And so it's something that I talk about a lot with my clients, actually, is like, we need to be getting light on our bare eyeballs in the morning, in midday, and in the evening so that we can actually sync our bodies with our circadian rhythms. So I'm really excited to learn more about the different types of light as well.

So we're going to introduce the different types of light by introducing a giant word. And then because the giant word is so cumbersome to say, we're going to abbreviate it. So the giant word is photobiomodulation.

Yes.

And so photo is the, the light, the photoreceptors in your eye, the light, and the bio is the biology, the body. And then modulation is how it modulates or changes your body. And there is a specific type of phototherapy called photobiomodulation therapy, otherwise known as PBM therapy. So we're going to be starting with that. Are you ready?

I'm so ready. PBM. Okay, get that acronym in our heads. PBM.

PBM. And so this is a form of light therapy that is considered sort of the umbrella, and it covers Several technologies that use differing forms of wavelengths of light for therapeutic purposes. And so it encompasses other forms of light therapy. So as an umbrella term, when we're referring to that, it's kind of nonspecific. And so if you're Googling and wanting to learn more about the PBM therapy, you want to get a little specific and ask the researcher or the person advertising it, like, what are you actually talking about? Yeah. And by the end of this conversation, you'll know more about what they're talking about and the kinds of questions to ask so you can make educated decisions about where you're spending your money and if you're getting what you think you're getting with their service.

Awesome.

Okay, so let's first talk about what the heck PBM is and how it works. So PBM, it is a form of Wavelength-like technology that does a ton of stuff. Number one is it stimulates the production of ATP. Do you remember what ATP is, Had?

Of course.

I love quizzing you about science. It's so fun cuz you always know the answer.

Not always. I, I didn't know about photobiomodulation until today. So

we found something she didn't know, y'all. It's like a red letter day.

But ATP, of course. I mean, you learn it in like What, freshman year biology in high school? And then you learn about it like in every science class after that. So

Hadley remembers it. Yeah.

So it's my kapha mind. My kapha mind is, is good at memorizing things and keeping it in the steel trap.

Your kapha mind is a steel trap and I admire it. So PBM works by stimulating ATP and that is the energy currency of the cell. So it gives your cell energy. And anywhere you have cells, they have energy, and the cells have energy to do all of the things they need to do. And so we're talking healing these cells, we're talking about repairing tissues, we're talking about detoxification, all of these things. Head to toe. When you energize the cells, you feel more energy and your cells can do what they need to do. So that's like, just on its own, that is incredible. Light therapy, PBM light therapy will do that for you.

That's— I mean, that's what we all want, right? Yeah. So

give me some of that.

We did an episode on energy management. We want more energy. So yes, please.

More energy, more tabs open on my computer. Hadley's like, no, no, don't do that.

No more tabs open.

So PBM also has other jobs. Are you ready for it?

I'm ready.

It's thought to work also by reducing inflammation and reducing oxidative stress. This is really—

Love that.

This is—

yeah, we've got lots of that going on in our culture.

And this is a mental, emotional, mental health and Holistic Healing Podcast. And if we talked about nothing else besides inflammation and oxidative stress, then we could fill hours on the air talking about how to heal from anxiety, depression, the effects of PTSD, all of it. By just— if you make one change in your life, that could be to bring down inflammation. That would be the most bang for your buck. And light therapy can do that.

That's pretty awesome.

Yeah. So that's kind of the umbrella term, but let's get a little bit more specific. So red

light therapy, actually, do you want to explain a little bit more about— I mean, people have heard of inflammation, people know what inflammation is. Do you want to talk a little bit more about oxidative stress though?

Yes. So if you see iron, have you ever really gone out by the— you guys live near a lake, right? So if you go to a lake and you see where they have an old dock built and if they used any sort of metal or iron, you'll see sometimes rust forming. Does that resonate?

Oh yeah, totally.

So that's a process of oxidation. This is the rusting that can happen. And so oxygen, even though it's important, it binds iron. But if you don't have antioxidants to balance that out, the oxidation can cause damage to the cells, just like it can rust the metal on your your dock out in the pond.

Right. And this is when oxygen molecules are not paired together. Right. So they become free radicals when it's just one oxygen molecule. If you've done a lot of science class, you know that O2 is what oxygen is. And so when we don't have those paired together and when it's just one oxygen molecule, it can bind to stuff in our cells and create the oxidative stress. Is that correct?

Yes, exactly. Oh, I love the level of science you just got into in there. And so if it's unstable and it's circulating around and binding where it's not supposed to and damaging cells, we wanna combat that. And so antioxidants are huge for that. Sources of antioxidants are like the brighter the berry, the more antioxidants that it's going to have, the greener the vegetable, or the more richly colored vegetables like kale or carrots or collard greens. are going to be really rich in antioxidants.

Yes, we love antioxidants, which I'm sure listeners have heard of antioxidants. I just don't know if they know why they're important. So they bind to those free radicals, which free radicals are those oxygen cells, those— or not cells, oxygen molecules that are just like free-floating, and it binds to those. And so it gets those out so it's not creating that oxidative stress.

That's brilliant. And phototherapy can do that too. So by being exposed to these wavelengths, you can actually get that benefit so long as it actually permeates through the layer of the skin, which we'll get into that detail because there is a difference if there's sun on your car but you have all of the windows up and you have like a snowsuit on and you're covering every part of your body, those wavelengths may not be permeating deep inside, as opposed to if you're, like, basking in the sun. Right. There's blocks, and we'll get there. And so we have more energy in our cells, we have more healing and repair, we have less inflammation, we have less oxidative stress, we have less damage to cells and tissues. So we have less predisposition to disease, including body pains, chronic diseases that Like cancer or fibromyalgia or gastrointestinal symptoms or brain symptoms, Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, forgetfulness, anxiety, all of that, right?

Mm-hmm. Yeah. We want, we want lots, we want to combat all of that stuff. So this is, this is really exciting.

So red light therapy, this is where we get into one of the subcategories of PBM. And so Red light therapy is a form of PBM. And so red light therapy is unique in its wavelength. And so we're going to start giving you some numbers, and they're all going to be in nanometers. And so this is how deeply into the body the wavelengths of light can permeate. And there could be light getting into your body that isn't visible to the eye, and we'll get into that later. So The permeation is the most important thing, is you can be getting effects from light that you can't see, but we can measure it. And so red light uses the wavelengths between 630 and 700 nanometers. So 630 to 700 nanometers. Red light is visible on the light spectrum, and it is able to get into the skin about 8 millimeters, right? And so When we look at the research, and there we're going to reference all of these articles. When you look at the research and you look at the effect of phototherapy on anxiety and depression in particular, there is an optimal nanometer zone, and this is 800 to 830 nanometers. And so we see that red light therapy doesn't quite hit that goal. So it's 630 to 700, and we want it to be closer to 800 to 830.

And is that— is the light spectrum that hits 800 to 830, what is the light on that, on the light spectrum then?

What kind of lights are going to do that for you?

Yeah,

I actually have a specific brand. There's one machine that I found doing a ton of research on the market that actually delivers this.

Okay. So, so yeah, so it really is not all red light is created equal.

Not all red light is created equal. And so red light has some research behind it, but there is a technology of PBM that is within that optimal 800 to 830 wavelength. And stay tuned because later in this episode, you're, you're gonna wanna finish this episode because the goodies are coming. This is like, what can I do now? And so it's coming. So red light therapy, we're finding it doesn't get to that optimal mood zone in terms of nanometer wavelengths, that 800 to 830. But there is some mixed research that shows it can be helpful. Some studies suggest it can increase serotonin in the brain. It can reduce inflammation. It can improve mitochondrial function. It can reduce oxidative stress, and it can increase the growth of new neurons, which is called neurogenesis.

Ooh, we definitely want that.

We definitely want that. Neuroplasticity, healing the brain, neurogenesis. Those are all very good words. And so red light therapy can do that, but you want to make sure that the red light therapy device is going to be within a light spectrum that is therapeutic. And so true red light therapy is going to be 630 to 700 nanometers, that can have some limited benefits. But if you can find a phototherapy that's between 800 and 830, you're gonna be even better. But some of this does depend on the individual. So some people, their body can take that 630 to 700 from a red light therapy treatment and they can have appreciated benefits. But some of us may not.

Right.

So That's why maybe some people, they're like rave about it, but other people, they're like, I literally feel like warm and that's it. I feel nothing.

That was me. Yeah.

You go into a tanning bed, they have the actual red light lights and not just painted fluorescent lights. And you're like, I feel, I don't know, that was like a warm experience, but you may not notice a difference. And it may be because it's just not truly therapeutic enough for you to have benefit.

So interesting. Okay, so when it's the 800 to 830, that's the, that's the range that you want to, want to have, right? Does that still count as red light then?

No, red light isn't able to penetrate at that wavelength.

Okay. And so, but there is a machine that includes red light and this other light, light spectrum or this other frequency.

It's a different one under the umbrella. So the first one is the red light.

Okay. Okay.

We're gonna do, so Hadlee, when you got married, you had, it was a rainy day. Good luck.

You

had these like beautiful umbrellas. And I'm going to imagine that that umbrella is like a jellyfish, right? Mm-hmm. Because you had the clear, the really cute clear ones.

Yes.

So red light therapy, imagine attaching a streamer to that and make it a red streamer. And that's hanging down like a little jellyfish arm. And so that's going to represent red light therapy.

Okay. Yes.

We're building our jellyfish. So we have red light therapy. Red light therapy is generally between 630 and 700. It can be in some limited research, not all research. It can be helpful for some people in the ways that we mentioned. But if it is ineffective for you, then we might consider other forms of PBM.

So interesting. And do we know what types of people— like, my mind immediately goes to the doshas. It's like, which dosha can actually, like, take in that frequency and benefit from it? And I would guess it's vata because vata tends to be more sensitive to things and to be more receptive to things like that. But I don't know.

I think that's really an awesome key. I think that's an awesome takeaway. So you're listening to this podcast, and so I would love it if you could do Some boots-on-the-ground research for us is number one, is take the dosha quiz. You can find it on Hadlee's Instagram, the link in her bio. You can find it on my Instagram if you go to my website, which is the link in the bio. The quiz is free. Like, take the quiz. Go to Hadlee's and take it there because Hadlee's the Ayurveda guru. She'll send you like list love email stuff and it'll be way better than all my list love. So go there. Do it there. It's good, I swear. And so the number one is then you'll know at this time what your dosha imbalance may be focusing towards, because remember, it's a fluid thing, like a jellyfish. It's fluid, it changes. And then go and get true authentic red light therapy done and then send us the report. Like, I was in a vata state, I got red light therapy done, and I felt 30% better. And so then if we can start collecting all of your data, then we can start to create correlations. But I think

he's so cool.

We need you guys to do it. So.

Yeah, right? Yeah. Oh, I love it. Okay, well, and you also, Dr. Cain, you have more vata, so you got to go try it out. I'll go try it out too and make sure that it's like the legit red light therapy. I'll go try it out too because I'm more pitta kapha, don't have as much vata, and I'll try it and see.

The 2 people I was talking to you about at the beginning who really swear by red light therapy, they're both Vata.

Makes sense.

Yeah. You're— you said your dad really benefits from it, right?

I don't know. I don't know how much he's done it. I just know that he's interested in it. So—

Oh, he's interested. Yeah. So have him do this. So, Dad, if you're listening, this is a call to you.

Yes.

Please, please take our quiz, Dad, and go do some red light therapy and report back.

Yes. He's also Pitta Kapha, so he doesn't have as much Vata. So it'll be an interesting experiment for sure.

All right, we're gonna start collecting data. We'll report back, y'all. So let's, let's add another attachment to our jellyfish, shall we?

Let's do it.

The next one, I waited, y'all, till Hadley took a big drink of water.

Yes. Sorry.

I timed that really well. The next one is near-infrared light, and there are different kinds of near-infrared light. We're going to abbreviate it NIR when we write our show notes, so it's going to be near light, near-infrared light. And so there's mid-infrared, near-infrared, and far-infrared. And near-infrared is the only type of light, uh, the only type of infrared light that can actually penetrate the skin. So that's kind of interesting, right?

Yeah. Interesting.

Yeah.

What is the— what is the, um, how many nanometers, or what is the frequency?

The frequency of near-infrared light, I wrote it down, is they use— in the research, they can use wavelengths at 850 nanometers, but there is a near-infrared light spectrum of 700 to 1,400 nanometers.

Oh wow. Okay.

So now we're getting into that, the like Goldilocks zone range of where we're getting some therapeutic benefit. Right. And so there was a study that was done that was published in, let me see what year it was. I think it was a recent study. Yeah, this was a 2023 study that was published in the Journal of Biology. And they were looking at the effects of near-infrared light on well-being and the health of human subjects. These human subjects had mild sleep-related complaints, and this was a double-blind randomized study. And they were looking at the effects of near-infrared or near-light therapy. And what these researchers found is that it can have a positive effect on well-being and health, specifically Improving mood, reducing drowsiness, reducing inflammation, and reducing your resting heart rate. So this would be valuable for you based on these findings. If you tend to get chest anxiety where your heart rate is palpitating or it's faster, if you find that you're a little bit more aroused, it's difficult to sleep. And maybe if you have a little bit of depressive anxiety, like you have a little bit of a low mood where it's kind of depression mixed with anxiety. Is that according to this study, this double-blind study, is that near-infrared light can actually be helpful for you if it's used within that nanometer wavelength that we've already seen in the clinical literature to be like the Goldilocks zone.

And that's the 800 to 830.

Exactly. And so they're like at 850 in this study and it was still helpful, but you can modify it to try to get to 800 to 830 because it was within a range. that spectrum, that near-infrared spectrum of 700 to 1400 nanometers, which is awesome because then we have a little bit more wiggle room for individualization. Like, okay, I feel better at 800. And then Hadlee's like, actually, I want a little. And then Todd's like, bring me on, 850. I need a little bit more. Right?

Totally. Yeah. And I'm curious, you mentioned that there's near-infrared and there's far. Yeah, moderate and far. Um, and so what's the difference between those?

Far infrared light has way farther wavelengths. I think that's maybe why they call it far infrared light. And so—

Okay, so it just— they just go further.

The nanometer distance. Yeah, the wavelengths of far infrared light is 3,000 nanometers.

Wow. Okay.

Okay. It can, it can go really, really far. So 3,000 nanometers all the way to 1 millimeter. And so, and it's the lowest energy region of the infrared spectrum, and it is invisible to the human eye. Like, we can't see far infrared light.

But we can see near infrared.

Yeah, we can see near infrared light. And so when we talk about near infrared light, the most important thing for us to know is that it can be useful, that it's on a big spectrum, that if you're looking for therapeutic device, you wanna make sure that it's an FDA-approved device that actually has been studied third party, that it is emitting the wavelength that you think that it's emitting, that they're telling you that it's emitting, and that it's somewhere within that Goldilocks zone that, like you said, the 800, 830. In this study, they're showing that 850 is still effective for people when it's near infrared. Awesome. And so it could be good, especially if you're like, feeling kind of that wired and tired, heart palpitating, depressive anxiety kind of symptom.

Amazing.

Yeah. So we need more studies to confirm if it's effective or not in terms of light therapy for mood disorders and more of a diverse population. But the research is promising and the technology of near-infrared light is something that we've been using for a while. And so that Opens a lot of doors.

That's amazing. Do you know how long we've been using it?

I don't know, but if somebody's listening to this and they know, please comment.

Yeah, definitely let us know.

Yeah. So let's add another jellyfish arm, shall we?

Yes! I love this. I love this analogy.

Have you heard the song, If You Move Like a Jellyfish, Rhythm Don't Mean Nothing?

Oh, who is that? That's hilarious.

Bubbletoes. It's Jack Johnson song. Oh no way!

Oh my gosh, I do love Jack Johnson though. Oh,

I was gonna say I love that you don't know what I'm trying to say. I was gonna be so proud of you for not being a Jack Johnson fan, but then you just said that you love Jack Johnson.

The reason I love Jack Johnson is solely because my uncle—

try to backpedal, try to backpedal—

my uncle plays a lot of Jack Johnson songs and then we all sing along with him like around the campfire. So it's like the sweetest thing ever. So that's why I like Jack Johnson.

But he doesn't sing about the bubble toes and the jellyfish.

Oh, can't say he does.

Maybe he does.

He hasn't for, for my family.

You tell him to add it to the playlist.

All right, I will.

Uncle Hadlee, please add this to the playlist. I'm glad you're listening. Thanks for listening.

Thanks for listening.

All right, UV light. Are you ready for UV light?

Ah, yes, let's do it.

Okay. The research for UV light on mood disorders is really mixed. It's not great. It's, it's so some UV light can improve your mood and reduce symptoms of depression and anxiety in some studies. Other studies are like, no, there's no link at all. Interesting. And we think that the, there's a possible explanation for that. And one may be the wavelength of the UV light. Cuz remember, like some of these are in a spectrum and are they using the right spectrum? Are they not? The other is the amount of exposure. So, like, how much of the body is getting exposed to it? How long are they getting exposed to it? And then the other part is what you were suggesting earlier, Hadlee, is someone's sensitivity to UV light. There's all sorts of individual variation, which maybe has to do with your dosha.

Right. So cool.

UV light has its downsides too. And so the question is, do the benefits outweigh the risks? And so the number one thing we want to think of is skin cancer. with UV light. And so if you're looking for phototherapy for mood optimization, I wouldn't start with UV light. And guess what? Besides the sun, manmade, what is the most common manmade source of UV light if you had to guess?

Tanning beds. I've never done one. I've never gone in a tanning bed.

Oh, that's amazing. And you always look so tan.

Well, they live in San Diego. Oh,

you're, you're a very smart girl. That's very, very good.

Yeah, my mom was always like, you're not allowed to go in the tanning bed. Like, no, no, no. So

you listened?

Yeah,

yeah. I would have been like, challenge accepted.

Yeah, right.

10 times. I'm such a rebel. Yeah, not really. I was a good kid, actually, but I like to think of myself as a rebel. So tanning beds, no bueno, my loves. Like, you may be getting a little bit of phototherapy from a tanning bed, and it may feel warm and it may feel good, but the risks in many cases outweigh the benefits, especially because we have better technology for getting you the benefits without the trade-offs. Right. And so again, UV light can increase the risk of skin cancer. And these are used in tanning beds. Tanning beds emit 2 types of UV light. It's called UVA and UVB. And UVA is a longer wavelength, and that's what makes you tan. UVB has a shorter wavelength, and that's what gives you the burn for a sunburn.

So interesting. I didn't know that.

Yeah. UV light has a shorter wavelength than near-infrared light, which we were talking about near-infrared light earlier. And so UV light, because it's shorter, it has more energy, it's more intense. And tanning beds are so intense and it's so concentrated that it emits 10 to 15 times more UVA light than the Sun, and it only emits a little bit of UVB light, not as much as the sun. So you're getting all of this UVA, and that's why you get super tan and you don't get as burned. But again, you're getting all of the skin cancer risk with it.

Okay, so interesting. That's why people don't burn as much in the tanning beds. Okay, got it.

And so then the wavelengths again, like, remember, what is the magic Goldilocks zone that we really want to stay in? It is

800 to 830.

You got it. And so UVA is 320 to 400.

Okay.

Nowhere near where we wanna be.

No.

And UVB is 280 to 320.

Oh,

again, nowhere where we need to be.

Mm-hmm.

So as I was looking up about tanning bed UV lights, of course I had to know, well, what kinds of bulbs are we talking here? And so I was curious because not all tanning beds are made with the same kind of bulbs. And so I was wondering if we could get UV light from fluorescent bulbs, and the answer surprised me. I'm curious what you would've guessed, Hads.

I would've guessed no.

That's what I thought.

Yeah. But now I'm like, but if the answer surprised you, then it's probably yes.

Bulbs can emit some UV light.

No way. I'm just like tanning, tanning in my You're tanning with a fluorescent bulb.

This was also very, very bizarre to me is that fluorescent lights have been like hated on for so many years, but the research was a little— the research was surprising. So let me tell you what I found. So yes, they can emit some UV light. It's a very small amount of UV light, and here's the air quotes, but it's generally considered to be safe.

Yeah, whatever.

They work by sending an electric current through a gas. That gas emits the UV light. The UV light then excites the phosphor coating on the inside of the bulb, and so then you have the bright light from that, right?

Um,

so what kind of light is released by fluorescent bulbs? They can actually release different types of light wavelengths, which was wild to me. Number one is that fluorescent bulbs can release visible light. We know that, and that's about 400 to 700 nanometers. They can also release ultraviolet light, so UV light, 200 to 400 nanometers, and it can release infrared light, 700 to 1,000 nanometers.

Oh, interesting.

Yeah. So Going back to the people I was talking about is, so if you go into red light therapy and you look at the bulbs in the tanning bed and they're fluorescent bulbs that are painted red, what is the most likely type of wavelength being emitted? And that is the wavelength of 630 to 700 nanometers.

Mm-hmm.

So that is the same wavelength used in red light therapy devices. And the efficacy again of red light therapy is kind of Questionable, but some people who are really sensitive to it, even if it's a fluorescent bulb, they can get some therapeutic benefit, which just like blew my mind. I was like, if it's fluorescent, it's gotta be garbage.

Right.

That's not the case, is that for some people, the specific type of fluorescent bulb can actually emit a wavelength of light that can be helpful for anxiety and depression and things like that.

There you go. That's pretty cool.

Teach me to judge.

Yeah, right.

Yeah. But again, it has the UV light, which makes it feel not worth the trade-offs for me. So remember, UV light can be very, very bad.

Yes, we do not want the skin cancer. That was why my mom was always like, no to the tanning beds.

Your mom, she is so wise and So lovely and so beautiful. You guys are the best parents.

I know, they're pretty awesome. Shout out to you guys if you're listening to this. We love you.

So other jellyfish arm, are you ready for it?

Okay, so we've— we have red light therapy, we have infrared, near, far, all the infrareds, we have UV. So those are the 3 arms of the jellyfish so far.

Yeah. And you actually always do this, but you think like 3 steps ahead of where I am and it's really impressive. But the arm that I wanted to expand on, even though you already asked about it, not everyone was as advanced as you were. So can I talk a little bit more about far infrared?

Yes.

Yeah. The research of far infrared for mood disorders is still in its early stages, but the research can be— the research is really good. And remember, this is like way farther wavelengths than what we're seeing is therapeutic for mood disorders, because that's the 800 to 830, right? Far infrared light goes way farther. So that's more like 3,000 nanometers to 1 millimeter, and it can have other benefits. So I'm going to share 4 main benefits of far infrared. So a lot of people may have heard of far infrared from saunas, like a far infrared light sauna, right? So what the heck is the deal with this light? What can it do according to the research? Number 1 is improve circulation. We're both nodding and smiling.

We definitely want that. I definitely want that. I don't know. I always have cold hands and feet, so let's please improve circulation. Really? Yes. Isn't that surprising as a Pitta?

Yeah, you're so pitta.

I know, I know. But I've got that kapha, so I need to get things moving along in my body. Otherwise, they stay stagnant.

And I love the idea of improving my circulation while I can be horizontal.

Yeah, please.

Count me in.

That sounds great.

I don't have to use my muscles or be vertical in any way. I can lay down and just

Sounds lovely.

Sounds lovely. So far-infrared light can improve circulation because it can dilate your blood vessels, increase blood flow. More blood vessel dilation with more blood flow means more delivering of oxygen. It also means more delivering of antioxidants, which Hadlee taught us about earlier, which means more flushing healthy deliciousness for your organs, like your liver and your kidneys and your brain, which can improve mood and cognitive function. So that's function number 1 of far infrared. Number 2, reduced inflammation. Woo-hoo. We talked about inflammation, so we love this. It can decrease cytokines. Those are inflammatory cells, and that is really cool. And I would love to see if there's research on far infrared and microglia. glia, which is an immune system cell in the brain.

Brain. Yeah. Interesting.

That would be profound for neurodegenerative disorders, and the implications of that would be interesting. So yeah,

if

you're listening to this and you feel like taking that baton and running with the research, please let us know.

Yeah. Sounds great.

Number 3 is that it has been studied to increase the production of serotonin, which we think plays a role in mood regulation, even though the chemical imbalance theory did debunk that low serotonin means depression and high serotonin means no depression. Like, we—

Wait, really? I didn't know this.

Oh, Hadley,

is it just— is it just a ratio kind of thing rather than like high versus low?

There's more to it. We thought that it was like, oh, more serotonin in the brain means more better mood. And that's just not the case because people can have high serotonin in the brain and be Very depressed. People can have low serotonin in the brain and feel fine. And medications that are modifying serotonin levels may be doing things other than modifying serotonin to create benefit. Like some antidepressants are actually antioxidants and anti-inflammatories.

Right. Oh yes. Awesome. So interesting.

Yeah. Ooh, maybe we should do—

We should definitely do an episode on this.

Yeah. I write about it in the book. Panic probably talk about that. There's like a whole chapter. So we like increased serotonin production for some people. That is interesting though, because if you do have a diagnosis of bipolar disorder, using certain types of light and phototherapy can be difficult for your nervous system to balance. It can cause mania. So before getting a phototherapeutic treatment, then you might want to talk to your doctor just to make sure that it's going to be safe for you. Because I've had patients who have used the happy light or other forms of phototherapy that got anxious or developed mania from that. Wow. So just because of the

serotonin boost,

we think it's because of the serotonin boost.

Wow.

Yeah.

So interesting.

Which is interesting because melatonin and serotonin live on a teeter-totter. So serotonin is a precursor to melatonin. So that means when you have high amounts of melatonin, you have more bioavailability to make serotonin. But if you're using up your serotonin, you're going to have less melatonin. And so they teeter-totter each other. That's so cool.

That's like circadian rhythm 101.

It's so amazing. And so that's why when we use light therapy, you're shutting down that melatonin pull, you're having more bioavailable serotonin. And so then you can experience anxiety or mania depending on whatever your constitution is. Interesting. Yeah. The 4th thing is that far-infrared light can reduce stress. We see that it can result in activation of the parasympathetic nervous system. That's like your rest, digest, reproduce system.

Oh my gosh. Yes. We love that.

So we love that. So the, the big question is, does phototherapy really work? And we think yes. It can work.

Sounds like it does.

It can be really effective. And so when you finish this podcast, I want you as a listener to know a few things. Number one is wavelength matters. So when you're looking at treatments or devices or doctors recommending things, make sure that the wavelength is somewhere within that Goldilocks zone of 800 to 830 nanometers. That is what we see is the best. Got it.

So good.

Number 2 is you want to know the power density. We didn't really get into that a lot, but generally speaking, this is the amount of light per unit area, and they measure this in milliwatts per square centimeter. And so the study that was really this main study that we're talking about here, they studied the most amount of efficacy was when they had a power density in PBMT, that kind of, that light therapy, that umbrella that jellyfish were talking about, is they found the best results if you're right around the 250 power density.

Okay. Which is different from the 800 to 830, just to be clear for all the listeners.

That's the wavelength.

Yep. So that's the wavelength. And then this is the power density.

And again, that wavelength, that best wavelength we talked about that's going to get you that 800 to 830 is going to be in that near-infrared spectrum.

Okay. And so I'm curious, you mentioned a bunch of different things for the far infrared. Do we just not have enough research to know if that's true for everyone? Whereas with near-infrared, it's more robust, the research.

And I think that the— yeah, that's a really good question in terms of I think it could just be exclusionary because the researchers in this, this best study that I found were really focusing on near-infrared. Oh, okay. And I think that's because we have really good technology presently for that.

Oh, okay. Got it, got it, got it. So it's not necessarily that it's not as effective, that far-infrared isn't as effective as near-infrared. We just have better technology for near-infrared.

Because the far-infrared is like overshooting that 800 to 830. Right. It's like at 3,000. So if we can like rein that in and have it not go so far, then does it become near?

Yeah, right. That's super interesting. I'd be, I'd be curious about that.

It might also be the mechanism of action, you know, so they like can both sort of hit you in different ways to get the same result. But the mechanism of action is really well studied for near-infrared in terms of improving anxiety and depression at the 800, 830. So the way that—

And do you know, do you know like what, like what does it look like if you were to go to a like go somewhere and do near-infrared? Is it a sauna? Is it like a tanning bed type contraption? Like what? I don't even know what it, what it would look like.

Yeah, I have only seen a small number of gadgets that will actually deliver this, this sort of energy source at the right wavelength of 800 to 830 at the right power density that actually has the strength to get to the parts of the brain and nervous system that you want, that 250, and then the enough energy in joules, which is 600 and 120. And that energy density means the total amount of light energy delivered to an area of tissue. And so you want to have enough energy to produce a therapeutic effect, but not so much energy that it's like roasting or damaging the tissues.

Right.

And so, like, I know that this is getting like a little bit more into physics than I think may be valuable for most of us, but there is one gadget that I found that is FDA approved that seems to satisfy these criteria. And it's, I have like no affiliation with this company. And so just as a disclaimer, like I, I'm just like researching FDA cleared phototherapeutic devices that's like actually giving you photobiomodulation. With the right amount of criteria met, and it's called a Vielight Neurogamma 3.

Okay, well, if the makers of Vielight Neurogamma 3 want to sponsor the podcast, hit us up.

Please hit us up. That would be amazing. And yeah, it's an $1,800 device, but if your doctor buys it, if your doctor has it, It has, it looks like, so I'm wearing headphones that are kind of over the area of the brain. So it has something that sits on the top of your head and it kind of goes from your forehead down in front of your ear. And so then it also has something that hooks around the mastoid in the back of your ear, and then it kind of, it's like a little helmet. And then you actually have something that's shining a light up your nose.

What?

You wanna have light, you wanna have that phototherapy. Sent to the ventral side of the brain. So, whoa. Yeah. Yeah. That's really cool. Hadlee.

Oh my gosh.

We'll include the link in the show notes too. And so if you find a doctor that has this machine, you know, wash the nose thing, but it could be very therapeutic. And so the general recommended for, according to their, their research, and they have a ton of articles that are just so interesting showing how this device actually works. Is they say to use it once every other day before experimenting with more frequent usage. And they recommend maybe 6 days a week maximum dose. And then you would do it for a duration of like maybe 30 minutes to 60 minutes depending on the person. But some of that is theoretical because we just need more research. Okay. But that's the one device that I found. And so that's not really accessible to most of us, but there is one source that is accessible to almost everybody. And do you know what that source is?

Is it the sun?

It's going back to that golden ball of light in the sky.

Oh, that makes me so happy. I was gonna ask about that.

Yeah, so like, close your eyes because we don't look at the sun directly. It's like Medusa, don't look at her directly, right? But like, tip your face, open your mouth, let the sun in your face through the roof of your mouth. Did you know that if you shine a light in the roof of the mouth, that you'll be able to like look up someone's nose or look in someone's nose and see the light through the roof of the mouth. Like, like, you can see—

That's so cool.

Yeah, the light shine in your mouth. Let the light shine into your eyeball, like your closed eyeballs. Let the light shine up your nose. Like, let the sunlight just bake you in the face. Okay. Those lights. And so not all of us have $2,000 for a fancy gadget, but we all have the sun. Well, unless you live in Michigan in the winter, which

we both escaped. Michigan winter.

But I mean, that was a lot of information about red light therapy at all, et al. So how was that for you, Hadz?

I mean, I'm super psyched about it. And okay, I have a question, and this might be kind of a dumb question, but I don't care because other people might have the same And whatever. Um, all, all of these things we can get from the sun, right? All of— every single thing that we've talked about.

Yeah. So the sun, remember, it relieves— it releases visible light, UV light, infrared light, X-ray light, and gamma light. So it releases all of these lights.

Awesome.

Yeah, we love that. We try to create robots and machines to do that, and

Right.

They're just never as— they're never as good as the sun. And so then there's some people that are like, remember, it does have the UV light, so watch out about skin cancer. Yeah, put your zinc oxide on your face to protect yourself from the effects of UV light and skin cancer. Eat lots of antioxidants to combat the effects of it. But remember, it's not the same as sitting in a concentrated tanning bed where you're like roasting yourself. Being out in the sun is different. And so protect your skin, but you can also absorb the wonderful benefits, especially from the, from the infrared.

Awesome. I am excited to do some open-mouth tanning.

I just had a thought that I'll save for after the recording.

Oh my gosh. Oh, I love it. Yeah, I Never thought to like get the sun up my nose, so I'll start doing that. Can

you please do a reel?

Yeah. Oh my gosh, that would be so funny.

Nose tanning. You like open up your nose in the reel and make yourself look like really piggy.

Yeah, right, right. Flare your nostrils.

You get squamous cell carcinoma up your nostrils.

Oh no. Sorry.

Is that so dark? Hey y'all, thank you for listening. This is so fun. You had to listen to me talk for an hour, but I hope that you learned something. And so the takeaway is get out in the sunshine or get your doctor to do a business write-off and buy that gadget.

Totally. And try out red light therapy, try out the infrared saunas, try out the different things and see if they work for you because it sounds like they do work for some people.

Yeah. And report back. Take your dosha quiz, do the therapy and report back and we'll conduct a study by proxy.

Yes, I love it.

Thanks for listening, all

y'all. Thanks, everyone. Bye.

Bye.