How to Become Panic Proof | Ep. 127

Hello. Welcome back to the Holistic Inner Balance Podcast. I'm Hadlee.

And I'm Dr. Nicole.

And we are here with a very, very special episode for you today. I am— I've just been, like, so excited to finally share this with you. We are going to be talking about Dr. Kane's new book called Panic Proof. And you guys, I am so excited. I read it, I devoured it. I didn't just read it, I devoured it. It is so, so good. I can't wait to get it into the hands of as many people as possible on this planet. Even if they don't suffer from anxiety, like literally every single person needs to read this book. There's so, so, so much. And we're gonna talk about it today. Are you excited?

I have been looking forward to this conversation for so long. This is like my favorite conversation material. This book has been on my heart for literally years. And so to get to just like play in the world of Panic Proof is so fun.

It's so good. I was just, I was just telling Dr. Nicole before the, before we started recording, it's like the anxiety Bible. Like it is everything that you need to heal your anxiety. Every single piece of it, and it's so interesting because I feel like a lot of times people focus either on okay, we're going to go into like the the therapy side of things, and you know the top-down approach, but then also bottom-up approach with like trauma healing and that kind of thing. But you know they do that, or they focus on the the physical side of things, the body, you know the testing, all of that. But you cover all of it, and you do it in such an amazing way, in such a way that actually is super understandable. So I'm super excited to get to give people a little taste of that today. And then obviously, you got to get the book. But I wanted to first ask you, what made you actually want to write this book?

This is the book that I needed when I was at rock bottom in anxiety. And so exactly what you were saying is I would go to the bookstore, jump online, And there were top-down books on cognitive behavioral therapy and all sorts of worksheets and workbooks on how to address the thoughts. And when you have a thought, what is the sensation that you feel in your body and what is the emotion? And so there's a lot of, as you said, top-down approaches. And then I would look and then I would see more of the medical approaches, which is, do you have thyroid disease and how do you know? And, oh, do yoga and do this mindfulness. But I didn't really see anything that I felt connected the bridge. I'm kind of envisioning, like, an arrow pointing down from the brain down to the body, and then an arrow pointing back up from the body to the brain. I didn't see anything that I felt like really connected the dots. And I really want to thank Hadlee or Haley. I want to thank you, Hadlee. But I really want to thank Haley for the wording connect the dots, because when we were creating the Holistic Wellness Collective membership, I would talk to her and say, well, obviously you do this thing next. And she's like, but how did you get to that from where we just were? And so a patient would come in, they would say X, Y, and Z, and then there's a gap that I was able to leap over to then come up with a plan, whether it's running testing or starting a medication or supplements or mindfulness or a habit. She's like, how do you connect the dots? And I was like, that's a really good point, is that there isn't information that's bridging that gap from top down to bottom up, but it's also not connecting the dots between understanding our story and what is coming up for us and then what to do about it. Mm-hmm. And I found that with my clients, I was just repeating myself constantly, and my clients would be taking frantic notes, but there were always gaps. And so then I started recording my sessions with them. And that was incredibly valuable. But I was like, what if I could just write this down? Then it would be so much easier. So I started making tons of handouts. My clients loved the handouts. And I was like, what if I could just make this available for everybody and they don't have to spend thousands of dollars on going to see somebody to get this information? They can get the information and then bring that to their doctors and be empowered. So that's why I wrote the book. Is so that I don't have to think about it anymore, number one. Number two is that you now, as the audience, you have access to all of this information and you can be powerful. You can feel like you have a semblance of control over what's happening. And it's an opportunity to change the paradigm of how we think about panic and anxiety from being a problem, but rather to being a solution. And so all of that wrapped into this book is like my my dream. It's like my happy, my happy place of literary gloriousness.

Oh my gosh. I think that it's so empowering. Like, while I was reading it, I was like, this is such an amazing thing to be able to have as a patient, as a, you know, as a layperson, you know, that hasn't gone to medical school, to be able to be like, oh, Like, that could be the thing, or that could be the thing. And I think that we do— we have this, obviously, this medical model that is so like, the doctor knows all and you should listen to the doctor. And like, the doctor might know a little bit more about health than, like, than you do, or a lot more about health than you do, but you know your body best. And so I think that this book is such a great tool for everyone to be able to see like, this is what I've been experiencing, to feel seen, and then also to be like, and this could actually be why. And then be able to bring that to their doctor rather than just being like, you know, kind of like pounding our head against the wall and being like, I have this thing, you're not listening to me, you're not listening to me, or like, you're not pursuing this other avenue. Like, we can be the people, the empowered ones to be like, could this be it? So I just— yeah, just so good. I'm so glad that you wrote this book.

Thank you. It feels collaborative, too. I like the way that you said that, where we can't expect our doctors to know everything. And in this insurance-based economic system, unfortunately, they just can't spend the time with us that we are worthy of. And so if we can think about it collaboratively and do our own work and then come to the table with like, okay, doctor, this is what These are my assignments. This is what I was thinking. This is why. Can you help me again bridge that gap, connect the dots so that we can work together? Because your doctor wants you to get better. You want to get better. You have the same goal. But I think this book, my goal for this book is to help you get there and get there more quickly.

Yes, I can see that being the case for everyone who reads this book. I have not really struggled with anxiety much in my life. I have a lot of pitta and a lot of kapha and not as much vata, and vata tends to be more of the anxiety. But I've had bouts of anxiety for sure. And reading through this, I was highlighting in different colors based on like, oh, this is good to know for myself. Oh, this is a great way of describing things in pink. And then I was highlighting everything for myself in blue. Like, all the things. But, yeah, I was highlighting left and right, like, oh, this makes so much sense for what I've gone through with— the audience knows my experiences with mold toxicity and how that impacts your pathways and all of the things. So I would love to talk a little bit more about Well, I want to, I want to talk a bit about the, like, really science-heavy portion because I loved it. I mean, you know, I love to nerd out about things, but I think that everyone is going to actually really love the science that you brought forth in this. And like, that sounds kind of weird because people are usually like, oh, I don't want to, like, read a textbook, right? But the way that you wrote it, I was just telling Dr. Kamen before this, Like, you feel smart as the reader reading this book. You're like, oh, I'm reading all this sciencey stuff, but I actually understand it. Like, I get it. So you're going to feel really, really smart. You're going to feel like, oh yeah, like I can understand all of this. It's because the writing is just so good. Only the things that you actually need to know are in there. You don't go off on like weird tangents or anything. And it is. It's just, it's absolutely brilliant. Do you want to speak a little bit to why it was so important to you to include so much of the science and, like, the, you know, some of the different pathways and stuff going into this book instead of just talking about, like, here's what to do?

I think that a big opportunity that we have as practitioners of integrative and complementary medicine Is to understand why we're doing what we're doing as opposed to memorizing protocols. And I get a lot of colleagues that reach out to me and they're like, what are your top 3 supplements for anxiety? And I would ask, well, why are they anxious?

Yeah.

And then they're like, well, they have a lot of stress in their job. And I'm like, okay, well, what is happening? In their mind, their body, their nervous system, and their other organ systems that have collaboratively produced a state of continual fight, flight, freeze, autonomic arousal, sympathetic overdrive, so that they feel anxious? Where are those adaptive mechanisms occurring and how do we reverse engineer them? So if we don't understand what is happening, then what we're doing is we're just suppressing, and then we're no better than the pill for an ill model.

Right.

So looking at the science, I think, is really important because you can give the same thing for different reasons. It's not about the thing that we're giving them or the intervention we're doing. It's about why we're doing it. The other reason it's so science heavy is because when I'm coming to the table and I'm providing integrative and complementary options is I think that sometimes we can get a little bit lazy with being science-based and science-informed. And a lot of practitioners from both ends of the spectrum can lean on theorizing a little bit. Like, well, I think theanine works because I've seen it work 100 times. And it's like, well, yeah, but I think I deserve, as a customer, I deserve better than your theory and 100 other people. And so everything in this book, all of the statements and the claims in this book are backed by peer-reviewed science and studies unless I say otherwise. If I say from my experience or this is how I like to do it, I make it really clear to differentiate that. And then the bibliography is like 30 pages of just like straight references. And that was really important to me. So when you read this information as a layperson or as a physician or a researcher, is that if you want to know more about this and you really want to understand it, then the research is there. It's not just my theories and my conjecture.

Totally. I love that. I mean, I always want to know why. Like, why am I taking this supplement? Why am I doing this thing? And I think that we have, like we were saying before, we've gotten so far away from from teaching why we're doing something, because a big part of that is because we don't have a lot of time with our doctors, right? Like, we don't— like, it's like, you here, do this, it'll fix things, right? And we have that pill for an ill model in large part because of that, as well as lots of other factors. But there's this zeitgeist, this like mode of being in our society where it's just like, I'm going to tell you, you know, what, what I'm experiencing. And anxiety is kind of a catch-all word too, right? Like, there's so much going on behind anxiety, right? There's 9 different types of anxiety, which you talk about in the book. And there's, there's so, so, so much going on here. And then we bring in like Ayurveda and stuff. And it's like there's so many different causes for these different things, and they show up in different ways and all of that kind of thing too. And so I'm curious about— and we don't need to go into all of the different types of anxiety because we've done podcast episodes about each type of anxiety, but I'm really curious because you kind of open with that in the first part of it. You've got 3 parts of the book, and you have everyone kind of take a quiz there. And so I'd love to have you just talk a little bit about the, the 9 types of anxiety. You can kind of just briefly, you know, touch on it. Um, but why it was so important for you to bring forth all 9 of those types of anxiety rather than just saying Oh, this is what you're supposed to do for anxiety.

Yeah. Anxiety presents differently for everybody, and it's such a nonspecific diagnosis. Right. And so if you go to the doctor and they want to know if you have hyperthyroidism, that's a very specific diagnosis that we can nail down with a test. We have a blood test for it. It's really specific, and there are well-researched methods For treating that. With anxiety is I think that we have opportunities to do better research to figure out why someone has the symptoms that they have. And so I think that by getting more specific with the unique manifestations of anxiety, it provides us with opportunities for, for deeper investigation. So, for example, one of the 9 types of anxiety is gut anxiety. And so somebody goes into the office and their doctor is just like, oh, you have anxiety. You feel worried more days than not. You feel restless. Your appetite changes. You go through the DSM, which is the big purple book. It's purple right now, used by the American Psychiatric Association for diagnosing generalized anxiety or panic disorder. These are very general symptoms of autonomic arousal. And then they give you a general treatment. My teacher used to always say, general symptoms, general treatment, general results. But if you get specific symptoms, specific treatment, you're going to get specific results. And so then gut anxiety, we're like, okay, so you have all of these general symptoms of anxiety, but now let's look at them in a little bit more detail. Just like if you looked at all the general symptoms of hyperthyroidism, That could look like lots of conditions. There's lots of things that can look like hyperthyroidism, but we have a diagnostic test that allows us to specify that. And so the 9 types of anxiety, like gut anxiety, if we look at that, we're like, okay, if I look at all the symptoms in the research that people tend to report most commonly of anxiety, categorically, there are types that manifest in the gut. And so if we see it's manifesting in the gut, Then we have an opportunity to research what's happening with the gut, what's happening with the gut-brain access. So that people are talking about, is there a blood test for anxiety? And some researchers are trying to find one. But what if the anxiety is coming from an imbalance of the bacteria in your gut? Is that going to be found by the same blood test as anxiety that's coming from menopausal hormone changes? Probably not. So the 9 types of anxiety provides us an opportunity to do more specific research so that we can get faster diagnosis and then faster, more specific treatments to get people relief that actually improves their health and reduces the incidence of panic, as opposed to a general treatment that's just a Band-Aid that makes your body unable to produce those symptoms, like a benzo or an SSRI like Lexapro, right? So instead of silencing the body and making it creative and send those symptoms elsewhere, which That's a whole other conversation. Right. As we see that the body, it's like a game of whack-a-mole. You hit one mole and another one will pop up. You suppress anxiety, you're going to get likely another symptom side effect. So this allows us to get much more specific. And I'm really hoping that this book will be the beginning of lots of conversations about it. Criticisms, critiques, research, research and development protocols that other great people after me can then create to help people get relief.

Yeah. Oh my gosh, it's so good. I, I think that having that— the quiz, there's like a short quiz at the beginning of the book where you're like, what are the different— the 9 different types of anxiety? It's genius because it helps you, the reader, to be able to be like, oh, now I know how to navigate the rest of this book because— and then you have it throughout, like, okay, If your thing is chest anxiety or if your thing is endocrine anxiety, which hyperthyroidism might be a player in there, then let's go look at this. And I think that everyone should read the whole book, but if you want to go right to the one that you discover about yourself, that's going to give you so much information. To start with, I think that it's absolutely going to be life-changing for people. Even when I was reading through it, I feel like I, you know, going through the quiz and everything, I was identifying things where I was like, oh, I actually do have some of that sometimes, you know, like, and it was surprising. So like, I'm excited for people to take it and to actually be like, oh, I didn't think that I had this, but this symptom is relating to to this type of anxiety. How interesting, you know?

Yeah. And we start the 9 Types of Anxiety chapter with a story from Esme.

Yes. I love all the stories.

She was— she's based on a composite of a couple of real people that I worked with, and she's just so fun and spicy. And so you guys will learn about her. But she was dealing with her mental health with one clinician, and then she was seeing another clinician for another issue and another clinician for another issue. And she felt like her symptoms were all over the place and there's no rhyme or reason, which made her feel really disempowered. She's like, my body and my mind are at war. My body is broken. She calls her uterus a sadistic organ that's out to make her life miserable at one point.

Mm-hmm.

And by the end of her journey through understanding the 9 types of anxiety and then that invitation that they gave her to do deeper digging, we actually were able to figure out why she felt the way she felt. We were able to figure out what's going on. Mm-hmm. And then she got better. Her anxiety got better. And so the other thing I wanna point out with that is, as, as people take the 9 types of anxiety quiz, is that it may change over time. And so I teach my clients about, I call it your canary. Which is something that lots of healers— Kelly Brogan's talked about the canary. Lots of people have talked about the canary. But what that may be is the first sign that you're going from feeling green and good and relaxed and calm, kind of that green light zone, into, oh my, I'm getting a little stressed. Because if you can catch that first symptom of anxiety, whether it shows up in your gut first, then you can employ interventions. Before the red light crisis mode of anxiety kicks in, where now you have dissociation and brain fog. And so you might notice that your symptoms, as you take the quiz, you might be like, I have every symptom. Well, then, and that's not uncommon, but then plot the symptoms on a severity spectrum. And then not only can we look at the different systems that may be involved, but then you can apply interventions right away. So somebody might not realize A lot of people say, like, panic attacks come out of the blue. And I would argue that in almost all circumstances that there was a canary and you just didn't see it or know it. The body will whisper, and then if you don't hear it, it will have to shout. And so if you can look at those types of anxiety and know that it's just continual data about what's going on or what is absent that you need to be going on, then you can plot it and intervene early. So that's, that's the 9 types of anxiety I really wanted to point out because a lot of people give me the feedback like, I have all of them. Yeah, yeah, you probably do at some point or another.

Totally. Yeah. Well, and I think that even just having this book as a reference to be like, oh, that's not like a just like a normal thing. Like, you know, it's maybe common but not normal. Like, it's like Oh, yeah, I guess I have experienced that. Like, that maybe that's the canary that you've just been like, oh, yeah, I always get like heartburn or, you know, whatever. Or I, oh, yeah, I always get this. And I just, you know, do what I need to do to like cope with it or manage it or whatever. And I love how you're like, at one point you said in the book, it's not called panic palliation, it's panic-proof.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

So like, you don't have to, you don't have to just manage your anxiety. Like, there are ways to actually get to the root of it and not have to deal with it anymore, which I think is just such a controversial statement and empowering thing to think about. Really empowering for those of, those of us out there who are like, Am I ever going to be able to not live with this?

Yeah, we did an episode about that is, can I actually heal from anxiety? Because I think that's going to be arguably one of the biggest controversial statements of this book. And go listen to that episode. But really, just in a little snippet, is if you fall down and you scrape your knee, Your body will heal that scrape even if you don't think about it or pay attention to it. Lots of kids fall down, scrape their knees, and forget about it, and then it will heal. And so if your body is able to heal itself, heal a scrape on the knee, and with respect to the research into neuroplasticity, why wouldn't it make sense that we can actually heal from panic and anxiety? It just doesn't make any sense. That argument— is not interesting or convincing to me.

Totally.

And the research into trauma-informed psychology, trauma-informed neuroscience shows us that we can actually heal the brain. And so the science backs it up. It's just a matter of, like we were saying earlier, connecting the dots between, okay, well, how do we do that then? Look at what's going on and then connect the dots, which this book will help you do so that you can create a plan to heal that.

Totally. And, and I love that you are such a big advocate for looking to obstacles to cure, because I think that that is like, once people realize, oh, it's because of this other thing, it's like, I can't believe that I've gone this long without anyone telling me that it could be this, you know? Like, we— I mean, with my example that we were talking about, like, In the mold episode, like, I was, you know, I was experiencing more anxiety in the past few months and stuff. And I was like, what is this? This is so weird. And it was because I was being exposed to mold. And so, like, there's environmental obstacles to cure. There are biological, chemical, genetic. But even if there are genetic things, there are things that we can do about it. And so, like, I think that that's just so powerful. And I love that you have a big chunk of the book dedicated to that.

That was for my recovery, is when I was at rock bottom anxiety, is I did all of the— I'm doing air quotes for those listening— all of the things. Yes, I took all of the herbs, I did acupuncture, I did meditation, exercise. I spent thousands of dollars in functional testing. I took the supplements, I took the homeopathy, I went and saw the psychiatrist, I took the benzos. I took the antidepressants. I even had an Ayurvedic practitioner pour oil on my third eye. I got massages. I cried through the entire things, and I still wasn't sleeping. And so it wasn't about adding all of the things.

Yeah.

And doing all of the things. It was, for me, there was an obstacle to cure, and it was my circumstances, my job. I was a new business entrepreneur, and it was just a very non-healthy environment for me. And it wasn't until over a year of horrible turmoil that I finally was able to step back and acknowledge that that was a big part of my healing obstacle. And then I moved. Like, I had to just do a giant pattern interrupt and I moved. And it was then when I removed that obstacle to cure that all the other stuff that I was doing started to work. Right. But I had to move. I was in a situation that was toxic for me, and so I had to get out of it. And so I really wanted to emphasize that. So if you're listening to this, it's kind of like your toe hurts and you go to the doctor and they treat your toe. They give you, I don't know, an ice bath and a painkiller and some acupuncture, and you're like, yeah, my toe's better. But then you go bowling, you drop the bowling ball on your toe, and you go back week after week after week. Your toe is not gonna get better until you stop dropping the bowling ball on it, right? So it's an obstacle to cure. And so as you, as you read the book, think about, and there's journaling prompts and things in there, but think about what might be getting in your way of being free from anxiety and what elements of that can you control? 'Cause, you know, some of us are anxious about the election that's coming up. Some of us, we're probably all quite anxious about that. Bipartisan, right? And we're anxious about the planet and we're anxious about the economy and we're whatever, you know? And so you can't fix all of the politics and all of the planet and all of the things, but looking at what is causing you to feel anxious or contributing to your anxiety and then figuring out what you can control, because anxiety and panic is all about personal sense of power. So what can you do to get back your power? to combat that obstacle to cure of powerlessness.

Yes, it's so good. And I love that you have all of those reflection points throughout the book, because when I'm reading a book, I usually don't stop to reflect unless there's a point where it's like, okay, yoo-hoo, Hadlee, stop. You're supposed to reflect now. And, you know, and it's, it's little short little pieces. Like you're not having us like write pages and pages and pages. It's very accessible. very doable to just like write out, oh, these are the symptoms, you know, or circle the symptoms or whatever that I experience. Here is like a potential obstacle to cure. Here's a potential, you know, here's a potential piece of the puzzle that could be contributing to my anxiety. And you have it with the different types of anxiety. You have it with the stoplight exercise, which you were talking about a little bit before, where it's like, The green light is you're in a good space. And then there's yellow light and red light, which is like panic. That's the panic point. And yeah, you have really, really great reflections in there. And I feel like it's sort of like a treasure trove. Like each chapter has like, ooh, now I get to take this little quiz. Like, ooh, now I get to do this, like the little stoplight exercise, which is It like, it's almost fun in a way, because I mean, especially if you're the type of person that likes to do the like self-inquiry kind of work, which you probably are if you're listening to this podcast, like to do that work. So it's, yeah, it's almost like a little treasure hunt where you're like, oh, there's another little thing for me to do for myself here.

Yeah, yeah. Another, another character, another avatar in the book is Aria. And she was like that too. She's based on somebody who would always come in with the iPad and they're like, I want to do all of the homework, like give me homework. And I was like, oh my goodness, I have to come up with homework. And, and so if you're that type, if you're an Aria type, and like, you're going to be happy.

She might be my favorite character.

Really? She's probably like you. She's

like, she's so pitta.

She's so pitta, but she's like a little bit more ferocious than you. You've got this like layer of sweetness. Yeah, she's intense. And then I have videos and workbook things for all of this. So if you're reading through this and you're loving it, then there's more to this. Actually, tell Penguin you're interested. I'm pitching a workbook, which the whole thing is done, which will go through every single exercise and expand on it. And I already have videos, and those are in the Wellness Collective. So if you're like, oh, want to know more about stoplight strategies, I have all of that for you because it's all about how can we give you the information so that you know exactly how to heal.

Totally. Yeah. The Wellness Collective, you guys, you need to join it. It is really awesome. It's so cool. I've had some of my clients join and they kind of go, they take what they learn with you and what they learn with me and they kind of bring it together and then they'll be like, okay, So Dr. Kane said this about these test results and all of that kind of thing. How do I now implement this into my lifestyle habits and all of that kind of thing? And then we work on that. And I've never seen anything like it. It's so comprehensive and tailored to you. You guys, you just got to join it. And it's so affordable. So definitely get on that.

Yes.

It's really cool. Yeah. Do you want to talk a little bit about the characters in the book?

Yeah. Oh, my goodness. I adore them all so much. So we have Esme, we talked about whose symptoms were a moving target. You'll have to read the book to find out what the root cause was. But she's San Francisco, and she's really struggling with all of these environmental factors, like the economics and Identity, being a first-generation immigrant and being a minority and a woman, her sexuality. So she's really able to kind of represent, I think, maybe more of the Xennial generation and what they're struggling with. And she, she makes some really powerful discoveries, especially we do a parts work exercise with her. And in the parts work exercise is I've taken conversations, and like I said, I started recording all of my sessions because I'm like, this is such good information, these people need to have access to be able to read it again. So I've got years of recorded conversations doing parts work with people. And so I transcribed kind of a composite of different clients and, you know, to protect Esme's privacy. And so you get to see what doing parts work is like and get to see her being vulnerable and see what's coming up. And there's a really surprising discovery about some of the root causes and how quickly she clears it doing parts work, which you can learn to do reading this book. Like, you can do it at home. It's amazing. So we have— That's me. Didn't you love her?

I loved her. Also, I was like, while reading these conversations, I was like, wow, these are very specific. specific. Like, I was wondering how you, like, remembered everything that happened in these conversations. And it's because you recorded them. I was like, these are so specific. Like, how does she remember? Like, oh, like, she laughed at her own joke. Like, oh, all of these things that I'm like, wow, she has a really good memory.

It's all excerpts. And so, like, you know, I have, like, 50 women over time that I have recordings with who there may be a hormonal component. And so our conversations about how they describe what it feels like. And so, okay, I'm gonna take this piece from this person who said these words, and then I feel like this person had an aha that was articulated really well. And so I do wanna put in the disclaimer that all of these avatars are composites of real people. And so if you're like, oh my gosh, this is my sister Susan, it probably isn't. I tried to make them relatable to a lot of people, but they're not— Esme's not one person.

Right. Well, that's what I was gonna say. They're super relatable. Like, if you're experiencing something like what, like, you know, a gut anxiety like Matt, or, you know, endocrine anxiety, like, you will relate to their stories. It's really, really, really cool. So

yeah,

yeah. Tell us more. Tell us more about the character. What are some of your other favorite characters?

Matt. I love Matt so much. Matt first came into my office many years ago, and the biggest thing was getting Matt to come in in person. And when he did come in in person, he was covered in cologne, cologne from head to foot. And so you'll read in the story why that was. And so his main thing was agoraphobia. He was afraid of going out in public. And in his story, we talk about the gut, we talk about trauma. He's so darling. And with him, we talk about benzodiazepines and how for him they were quite life-saving until he had the resources to figure out what his symptoms were telling him needed healing and how to heal it. So it was like a life raft that got him into my office. It was a life raft that kept him afloat so that he was able to actually heal. And his story is so beautiful. So I can't wait for you to hear more about Matthew and, as you said, gut anxiety.

Yeah, yeah. I, I think that I love how you talk about benzos and SSRIs and different medications and stuff in such a nuanced way too. Like, these things are not bad. Like, it's not bad to do like a not quote unquote not natural path. It's just that, is it serving you? And if it's not, then it's— it can be that life raft for a little bit. Yeah. Just like our coping mechanisms are, just like, you know, eating ice cream on the couch was our life raft for a little bit, and now it's not serving us, right? Same, same thing, right? Yeah. And I love that you, that you speak to that in such a nuanced way where it's not like you're not like pro or anti really anything. You're like, any of this can be helpful.

Yeah, I sound like Switzerland.

Well, Switzerland is my favorite country, so there you go.

It's quite beautiful. I love Switzerland. Yeah. But I really appreciate you saying that because that's the heart space I want to go into it with, is that we're all honestly, in the end, we're all really just doing the best that we can with the resources that we have. If we can have radical empathy and radical compassion and radical acceptance with what happened to us, what didn't happen to us, and where we are right now, then you're halfway there in not feeling that you're at war with the doctors or the medical system or the things that you can't control, or thinking about like Gosh, I wish this doctor— when I went into college, I had 6 prescriptions and it made me sicker. And yet my doctor and my parents were doing the best that they could. And now I know how to do better. But it's my responsibility to acknowledge that, accept that, and then to make different choices going forward. Because if I hold on to that resentment or that anger, Then that will serve as an obstacle to cure for me moving forward. And I don't mean to be enabling of continued problematic patterns, but rather where can I learn from something, take my power back, and then make choices going forward? And I think that having that acceptance of, okay, I feel a lot of people contact me and they're like, I feel so much shame. I'm on a benzodiazepine. And I'm like, that's what you needed, what you were prescribed at that time. Better or for worse. But now what are we going to do differently? Don't hang on to what was. We're going to process it and clear it, and then let's figure out where you want to go. And maybe that is continuing to take a benzo, whatever you and your doctor decide is best. But maybe that also means putting a semicolon there and getting off of the benzo, in which case I'll help you with that in this book. You could bring it to your doctor.

Yeah. Oh, my gosh, I love that. And I mean, even what you were saying earlier on in the conversation, Where you're talking about how your obstacle to cure was this environment, this environment that was toxic for you. I like that you had that little piece in there because it's not to say like these people were toxic and they're just like energy vampires and all that.

Yeah.

It rather, it's just like this was, this was an obstacle to cure For me, I had to remove myself from there for me. And we don't have to blame and shame our, our past selves or the other people or whatever. And I think, you know, the, the third part of the book is really helpful in, in like parts work and, and having compassion with ourselves and all of the different parts of ourselves, including the part that was judgmental and, you know, that has a lot of anger and all of that stuff. And once we are able to feel it all and let it go, that's when it won't hold us. It won't be another obstacle to cure, basically. Yeah.

And Jenny discovered that Jenny had a lot of stress and trauma with her mom.

Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

She had a lot going on with her mom. She was in a terrible car accident, so she had this stored So she had this adaptation that was stored in her mind, body, nervous system, and other organ systems that kept her in a state that would prepare her and protect her from continuation of those developmental difficulties being with her mom and her mom, that relationship being really challenging. And then when she moved out of that, the symptoms were sticky and it was like she was stuck in the past. And I refer to this a lot as the sticky factor. So it's like we go through things, but do we go through it? So it's sort of like you live in the UP in northern Michigan and it's very cold, and so you put on a big fluffy warm coat and then you migrate to San Diego where it's nice and warm. So adaptations in the mind, the body, and the nervous system and the other organ systems will be like putting on a warm coat in the UP where it's cold and then taking that coat off when you move to San Diego. And it's the same thing as we— our bodies, our amygdala will look at our environment and decide that it's dangerous. Mom is tumultuous, dad is absent, or in Esme's case, violent, right? And so I'm going to— my amygdala is going to produce a pathway that activates the autonomic nervous system. So now you have cortisol releasing so that you can fight, flight, freeze. Flop, fawn, fracture, whatever that F6 is that you meet in the book. And then when you leave that situation and you no longer are needing to be in that warm coat of autonomic arousal or that cortisol production, then later that stickiness of that symptom, that adaptation becomes a problem. It's like moving to San Diego. Now you're hot, now you're sweaty, and the coat's too much. And so We want to look at our symptoms over time and identify where they may be stuck, where they may be sticky, and then have compassion for the past, but then destick ourselves from the past.

I love that. And it relates to what you were saying about, I don't want to enable behavior that is problematic, but It's not about the other person, it's about freeing yourself, right? And then the same goes for freeing ourselves from whatever sticky situation we were in or whatever coping strategies we had that are now like a down coat in San Diego. Although I feel like you would wear a down coat in San Diego.

Yeah, maybe that wasn't Arizona. You know, it's like 120 there.

Yeah, there you go. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

yeah. You guys, Dr.

Kane like comes to San Diego and is cold here.

Every time I go to California, I have to buy a sweater or a coat because I like always forget. It's so cold, actually.

Oh my gosh, I love it. You're a desert— you're a desert girl.

I am. I love the desert. 120. I'll take it over anything, like, under 70.

Can't handle it. I know. I need it to be, like, in, like, low 70s is my ideal.

That's your pitta. No higher. Yeah. Yeah.

So funny. Oh, my gosh. So good. Okay, so is there anything else that you feel like you want the audience to know about Panic Proof and about, well, yeah, any, anything you want them to know about Panic Proof and any message that you want to leave, leave the audience with.

The third part of the book is really fun because I give you my, like, my best recipes. And so these are recipes that I've been using for over a decade that actually really, really work. And so all of the recipes are there. So what happens as you work your way through the book is I give you every single step to create what I call your panic-proof protocol. And in the back, it's a tongue twister.

Panic-proof protocol.

Say that 10 times fast.

I love it. I love the alliteration.

I know. I love these alliterations. And so as you go through the book, you are going to finish the book and you are going to have your own protocol, and that protocol is going to include habits that you need to incorporate, supplements that may be valuable for you. I teach you how to formulate your own herbal tinctures.

Yes, I loved that.

Oh my gosh, it's so fun. And so you have chest anxiety, your supplement protocol may be different versus if you have gut anxiety. And then if you have Pitta chest anxiety, that's going to be different versus if you have Kapha chest anxiety or If you have endocrine anxiety and you have no iron in your body, you're not going to get better on any protocol unless you get your iron back up. And so there's protocols for endocrine anxiety in there. And so it's not only just like meeting these amazing characters and learning all this incredible science, but it's actionable in that you're going to get a step-by-step guide to walking away with your plan so you know exactly what to do. And then if you want more and you need videos explaining it, or if you have questions, then I have tons of resources for you. And you can find me on Instagram or in the membership. Hadlee and I are here doing this podcast. We get into all this stuff in more detail. So if you're like, oh my gosh, anger anxiety is like my thing, you only have 10 pages on anger anxiety. I want more. We have that for you in the podcast. So my goal is that you buy this book and whatever they sell it for, I don't know, like $20 or something, whatever the bookstores sell it for, that you walk away with knowing exactly why you're anxious and what to do about it, and that you get better, and that you give the book to your friend, or better yet, have them buy it so that the publisher will let me write more books because they want to make money.

Well, and so they can fill out everything and really—

You gotta write in it. Yeah.

Yeah, totally. Well, and it's so cool how you, you You weave the, like, kind of like, it's not necessarily a workbook, but you weave those, you know, those inquiries, you know, and you, there are places to write in the book. So it is a little bit like a workbook, which I actually, I like really appreciate because I actually really like writing in my books. So you have that throughout. And then at the end, when you're having the reader, like, fill out, okay, what is my protocol? You're like, okay, go back to this page. This is what you wrote here. And you can kind of copy that over to really inform the next steps for you in, okay, now these are kind of the supplements, these are the different habits, all of the different things that you can do based on what you wrote before. And so It just weaves it together so seamlessly. And yeah, by the end, you're like, I'm an expert on my anxiety. Like, I know exactly what needs to happen next. And you're like, now I got to do this, this, and this. And you're good to go. Yes. And

you

can do more testing. And you also really, really, like, write out everything that they need to know about testing too, which I think is so valuable. I think a lot of times that part gets kind of like skimmed over. And it's like, Talk to your doctor. But sometimes people don't have doctors who are willing or able to do the kind of testing that you talk about in the book. And you give resources for how to actually get those tests done, which I think is really unique to the whole industry of mental health and medicine in general. It's not just like, just talk to your doctor and they'll run the tests for you. You give them the exact things that they need to do, which is awesome.

And there's a secret link in the book to a link on my website that isn't just findable on my website. So when you get the book, I'll tell you where the secret link is. And when you go to that URL, you are going to find links to every single bundle. You're going to find links to every single test. You can order your own tests. I advise that you bring your test results to a doctor to help you understand them. But you can order your own tests. And so I show you where you can order them from, and that's going to continually be updated. So this book comes out in 2023. Lab companies change and supplements change their names and things. And so this secret link is just for you buying this book so that you can go and find all of this. So it's not like I have to figure out where to buy all the herbs and what are good brands. I got you, boo. It's all there.

That's so sweet. So valuable. Oh, my gosh. Because you could wade through all of the stuff on the internet for years and have no idea. So that's going to be massive for everyone. Oh, my God.

You're like, okay, endocrine anxiety. I need to test my thyroid. Click.

Yes. And Dr. Nicole has done all of the research for you, and you can trust it. Doing this for quite some time. It's all there.

It's all there. And yeah, I know I've said this disclaimer a couple of times, but like, boos. This is not a substitute for getting a good counselor. This is not a substitute for seeing a doctor. I want to teach you how to be your own self-healer, and this isn't medical advice. That's the disclaimer in the book. So work with your doctor. Empower your doctor to be the best advocate and ally. They might help you see blind spots. It gets a little complicated. You just want to make sure you have someone you trust who's got eyeballs on you. So, yes.

Right. And you do say talk to your doctor, but you say it in a different way than most people say it. You say talk to your doctor about this, about this thing that could be the thing, instead of being like, well, with testing and stuff, talk to your doctor about that. Just kind of like, here you go. You're giving the actual possibilities for what to talk to the doctor about, which is So important.

Yeah. What kind of magnesium test is an accurate one? So if you just ask, you say, well, test your magnesium, and your doctor is like, and they just circle the first one in the lab slip, that might not be the one that gets you what you need. So I'm really specific. So thanks for noticing that, too.

Oh, yeah. Oh, my gosh. The book is absolute genius. So excited for everyone to read it. It's so good. Oh, my God. Yeah. And you give all of the resources and stuff in there, too. So if there's ever like, oh, I want to know more about endocrine anxiety or whatever, you give the exact place to go and everything. So it's not like people are like, what do I do now? You actually have the links and stuff in the book too, which is really helpful.

Yeah, it's all there. And it's just so grateful that you were able to read it and willing to read it and our conversations and how They've expanded on these topics and added juiciness on these topics. And so thanks for being a part of this process.

Oh my gosh, absolutely. It's been so fun, and I'm so honored to get to read it before it comes out.

Yeah, it comes out October 8th. And so just a pitch for the book is that earlier orders are better. It tells the publisher that people want it. It tells the bookstores how many to order. And so So it really means so much if you can preorder the book. And so we'll make sure to include the links in the show notes. I have a website dedicated to this, so it's panicproof.com, and there's a free gift. So if you preorder or order it now, I have a free gift on there right now. And so you'll see a link to download it for free if you buy the book.

Oh, so you can download it right now so you don't even have to wait until—

You don't have to wait. You can get it right now. Yeah. But yeah, please preorder it and then you're going to get your beautiful copy and It's so pretty. You're going to get your copy in the mail. Launch is October 8th.

So pretty. It's so pretty. I'm so excited. Yeah, I am really excited. And also, you guys, like, whatever— I don't know what the free gift is, but whatever the free gift is, you— it's going to be super highly valuable because everything Dr. Cain does is super highly valuable. So get in it, do it. Preorder the book, preorder it for like, buy it for all of your friends. Like anyone that deals with anxiety or that deals with anything else, any other— I mean, you talk about depression in the book too. And I mean, because it's so intertwined and there's so much anything with mental health, but also there's a lot of value with lots of other health conditions and stuff in there too because it's all interconnected. It all goes together. Yeah, buy it for all your friends, all your family members. Start a book club. It's gonna be amazing.

We should make book club questions.

Ooh, definitely. That'll, that'll be really good.

Good inspo, Hads.

Yes. All right, so start your book club. Start your book club, everyone, and we'll get you some book club questions.

Yeah. Thanks for the interview. This is such a fun conversation. And all y'all, thanks for being a part of this. Couldn't do it, wouldn't be here without you.

Yes, it's been so fun to be able to talk about all the concepts, you know, in these podcast episodes, but to see it all just like in one place and just so well mapped out and everything, I'm just, I'm blown away. So thanks for, thanks for telling us all about the book, and everyone go ahead and preorder it.

Okay, thank you. See y'all later.

Bye, everyone.