Recovering from Trauma and Learning to Triumph with Joe Smarro | Ep. 142

Hello and welcome back to the Holistic Inner Balance Podcast. I am Hadlee of Happy Healthy with Hadlee.

And I'm Dr. Nicole.

And we are talking today to an amazing human being. We, we just had the best conversation. So we are recording this at the end of our conversation with Joe And we became best friends. Correct.

Yes.

You'll hear us talk about it, how we became best friends. Um, just such, such a sweet, amazing soul and, um, heart-centered, just such a heart-centered human being. Um, so the bio that I'm about to give you is going to perhaps surprise you, but Joe Smarro is a decorated Marine veteran. He's a former police officer and now a mental health advocate who is revolutionizing crisis intervention. He served 2 tours in Iraq, and then after that, he co-founded San Antonio's Police Mental Health Unit and later created Solution Point Plus, which is a national training firm. He's known for his TEDx talk, and he was also featured in an Emmy Award-winning documentary called Ernie and Joe: Crisis Cops. He also has a new book out right now called Unarmed. And his whole thing is transforming how first responders approach mental health and suicide prevention. But he also works with people from all walks of life on mental health advocacy. And it's— he was just such a breath of fresh air. Like, everything that he was saying was— Amazing. So you guys are gonna love it. I really think you guys are gonna love this episode.

Yeah. And of course, it— this is another episode where there's a little bit of a trigger warning. We do get into some heavy topics. There is a powerful, powerful story of hope and triumph that comes with it. But just be ready and make sure that, that you're taking care of you too when you're listening to this podcast episode. I'm really grateful for it. And it's going to definitely be in my top 10.

Oh, absolutely. Yes. And we've become lifelong friends. Fact. Yes. So enjoy.

Thanks, everyone.

Hello.

Such a joy to connect with you. Your background looks amazing.

Thank you. I appreciate it.

We've been really looking forward to connecting with you today, and Hadlee and I were just planning the, the conversation and So she was just telling me how much she's enjoyed listening to your material.

Well, thank you.

I appreciate it. I'm excited to be here and just share whatever I can with your audience. And I'm always grateful to do these. And so I also appreciate the time you guys are giving me. So thank you very much.

Of course.

I have your email pulled up where you're expressing like anything mental health, wellness, resilience, mindset, kind of that introspection related. Top. That's, that's like your zone of genius. And I love that you're coming at it from a totally different angle than what we've had on the podcast before. I really, really like that. And so, as you've been like preparing for this conversation and doing other interviews, is there one element of that that you're really especially excited about to make sure that we zero in on that?

Yeah, I mean, I think if I think back to even just like my last 5 that I've done, it's— they pretty much go the same way, which is why I was also excited for this one, because this one was a little different from what I've traditionally been getting, other than, um, you know, obviously you guys are in the public health and wellness space, and, uh, so I— there's clear overlap, but just coming from the more holistic side, uh, which I'm a fan of. Um, but yeah, traditionally it's just been like high-level background stuff. And just to give you guys context, and then truly we can go whatever direction you want, but, um, I'm somebody with a 9 ACE score, horrific upbringing, a lot of childhood abuse, sexual abuse, and I'm open to talk about everything. Um, And, you know, acutely suicidal at 15, left home, started living with friends. My girlfriend's parents took me in junior year of high school, end up getting pregnant, have my kid my senior year. So then that's why I joined the military. But that was in 2000. Um, 2 combat tours later, I was like, yeah, no thanks. So got out of the Marine Corps, moved to— from New York originally, was stationed in California. Got out, moved to South Texas, and then joined the police department truly with my ignorant self of like, I'm going to go help people. I'm tired of being around death. And my first year was really rough. And then 364 days into my policing career, I get a call for a guy screaming. It was just me. I show up and this is in San Antonio. He's totally detached from reality, flat affect, that like no engagement. And I was like, this is weird. I don't know. I wasn't trained to deal with this. I don't know what to do. I'm like talking to him. Hey, man, you got to give me your name. Nothing. Come on, man. Like, just give me something. I got to write a report and leave. Wouldn't talk to me. And so I start walking him to my car. He's not resisting. Everything's good. As soon as we get to my car, he just, like, punches me in the face. Fight's on. Nothing comes off my belt. We're just grappling. But it was right at shift change. And so it took 7 minutes and 24 seconds for the next cover officer to show up. Hmm. And it essentially took 4 of us to get him into custody. No taser, no pepper spray, no ASP, nothing. He was on a ton of cocaine. We had no idea. But anyway, as soon as we got him handcuffed, he died. So then that like sent me into a true like spiral. Probably my first one as like an adult because I had been spiraling most of my childhood. And then in my adult life, that was where I was like, man, I really got into this thinking I was going to help people. And now I've contributed to yet someone else's death and I just hate myself. And then my drug or vice really just became like seeking any external validation I could, which came from women in pornography, not from alcohol or marijuana or opiates. Like, thank God, because that all has like criminal elements. But I like morally was destroying my life. And, um, it wasn't until I had like 3 divorces where I was like, I think I'm not the smartest guy, but I think I might be the problem here. Um, and then that was about 16 years ago where I was like, I went to the VA Started getting therapy, and I've been in treatment ever since, various modalities. Um, and then I quit my job as a cop in 2020, started my business back in 2017, but it was a side hustle. Quit. And now all I do is go around North America, me and my team. Uh, I do more on like the speaking side. Um, but I've got a team of trainers that provide mental health, de-escalation, wellness, and resiliency training all over North America for first responders. Because what I learned was The more I was willing to like show up for myself, learn about myself, heal my trauma, the better cop I was for the community. And to me, I think, um, and this is not the recorded part, but my genuine belief is that it's not that like cops are inherently just racist bad people. It's not that when they do dumb things it's because they're assholes. It's because they have like wildly deep unprocessed trauma that they don't know how to uproot or bring out. And it's, again, it's not that they're bad people. It's just we don't have a culture in America that like allows, especially men traditionally in these patriarchal organizations to come forward and say, hey, I'm suffering. Like, I'm not doing well and I'm not sleeping well and my wife's mad at me and I don't know how to be emotionally available for my kids. And so I'm just angry. And now I'm going to go take it out on the community because that's just easy. And I really think that that's what's at play here at scale, which is why we have the divide we, we, we have. Along with all the historical context and how policing got started and all that. So, um, my mission is to eradicate suicide amongst all first responders. Um, I do see it as a choice, but I just see that there's the big wall in front of them is fear of embarrassment, shame, guilt. Uh, what would people say? Am I weak? All the things that challenge the, the stereotypes of these, of these male-dominated professions. So That's like the 30,000-foot view. If there's something in there you want to pull on or touch on or have me recap and go deeper into, I'm happy to do it. But that's Joe Morrow in a nutshell for you.

Brilliant. I honor you. I'm so grateful for you. And I just— yeah, there's no better words. I so see you and I so honor you. And

that was the name of my TEDx talk. I see you.

I really, I really do. And, and it's such a story of hope and promise and transformation. And if you're open to it, we could start with that 30,000 view. And I, I would love to just keep rolling, just keep rolling with what you just said. Yeah. I, what I'm curious about is, is where that moment, where that shift What was that tipping point for that shift for you? Because so many people who have this kind of a story and they, they face this almost like do-or-die fork in the road, it doesn't always end up with them doing a TEDx talk and traveling around the world with this kind of a mission. And so I'm curious for you, maybe this is— there's maybe more than one fork in the road and it was little steps, but I'm curious how you, how you ended up taking them. road that you did?

Yeah. So for me, it really comes down to understanding that, um, what's important was that I, I, I wasn't ready to share my story, right? Uh, there's a big difference between teaching or leading from scars versus scabs. And it wasn't until I started really going on my healing journey of doing the inner child work and learning about my childhood trauma and the, and the structures that Really were developed and going through like schema-based treatment, all these different modalities that I have been through to really learn that. It's like I have a great therapist now who I love dearly, and I've been with her about seven years. But she was like, Joe, you you did this. The the sole responsibility of every child is just to survive it, and you did it. But now you have to realize that like the things that you had to develop and create to survive childhood are no longer serving you. Now I'm a forty-three year old. Man, right? And I started learning this stuff at like 37. So for the people listening to this that have a similar story, but they haven't had that, as you called it, uh, the fork in the road, trust me, there, there were many times or rock bottoms or however you put it where I had numerous rock bottoms, but I still wasn't willing to accept the fact that, oh, I have to change this, right? And it's like I tell people with all the love and grace I have, it's, it's, I don't want you to feel like You being victimized as a child was ever your fault because it wasn't. But 1000% now as an adult, we have to just have that realization that we got to wake up and take ownership of our own thoughts. We have to realize that our thoughts are not serving us anymore if they're not serving us anymore. And mine weren't. I truly believed that I was not worthy of love. I had no self-worth. I didn't think that relationships were a real thing that could ever last because I never saw it. And that's not an excuse. And that's not me blaming my parents. It's just the reality of If I've never seen this thing actually work, then why would I believe that it would work for me? And so I would self-sabotage. And anytime I was in a relationship or a marriage that was going well, I was like, well, this surely isn't going to last, so let me ruin it. And that was the pattern. And my— to answer your question specifically, it was my wife leaving me the second time. And she was like, look, I can't stand you. I hate you because I did. I stepped out again. I was unfaithful. I got caught. And that was the pattern. And, and, and she was like, but listen, something is seriously wrong with you because every time this would happen, my response would always be, well, yeah, but you were going to do this anyway. And 100% of the time they were like, no, I wasn't. Like, I was never going to do that. I'm like, no, you were, because my mom did it and every girlfriend my dad had did it and everyone's done this. Love isn't real. Surely I don't deserve it because my parents didn't give it to me. Then why would anyone else give it to me? And so I had to go through years and years of Not just trauma work, but also like really what, and I'm gonna be honest with you, like I tell people I'm a, I am a self-recovering like naysayer because a lot of the stuff I teach now is stuff I never believed in before. Like affirmations, like forget it. Meditation. Yeah, right. And now it's the things that like truly guide my life of for years I would have to tell myself like, you are worthy. Like you do deserve love. You are lovable, right? You are inherently good. And yes, you've made poor choices and you've made mistakes and you know, you've hurt people. But that doesn't mean you deserve everything bad in life to happen to you. You just have to start taking ownership now. And it was with my therapist that really helped unlock these things. And then again, it's just been a long journey. Again, it's not perfect. It's hard. But I can tell you it is worth it. And I just— I wrote a book last year called Unarmed, and it's about my de-escalation tactics. But chapter 7 in that book is called Worthy of Tomorrow, and it's my suicide prevention chapter because I've been in those dark places where I thought suicide was not just the best option for me. I legitimately thought my family would be better off this way. My, my children would be so much better off if I just was gone rather than me being a frequent reminder of what a disappointment I am. So death is the only acceptable option here. And I'm so grateful that I never made that choice because now, like, the relationships I have with my kids, even with my children's mothers, where it's like we, we can all get along, we can coexist, we can co-parent, but it's because I worked on myself. Not blaming anyone else, accepting what is, what actually happened in my life is unfair and not right, but I have to take ownership now to be willing to do something about it. And that's been the journey for me.

Yeah. You can't change how you were parented, but you can change how you're parenting yourself. Yes.

And so healing that child even, right? Like that's a lot of the work is like, how, what, what story would you go back and tell that child in that moment? And that's so much of that progression is realizing that like, hey, look, yes, like I tell people, I'm not proud of the things that I've done, but I'm certainly proud of where I'm going. Understanding that it is a journey, owning my mistakes. I've never been one to pretend that like, oh, I've never done those things. And like, that wasn't me. Like, no, no, I made terrible choices. I hurt a lot of people. I have made poor choices throughout my life morally, right? Like I was a decorated Marine that did 2 combat tours. I had a great policing career, decorated as well. Never got in any trouble. Like I was a professional, and that's where me for the mask was since high school when I was suicidal in high school. My nickname was Smiley, and I was the class clown every year in the yearbook, and everyone was like, "Oh my God, Joey's so funny! He's so funny!" Because I would rather you laugh at me and accept me for being funny than to know that I was suffering inside and that I didn't feel safe at home. And so that just progressed into my adult life to where I was like. And I, I like the fact that, like, you know of me as like a person that cheats on his spouse. Like, that's fine. Like, because other people do it. Like, it's not a big deal. It's culturally just 50% or whatever. Who cares? And I would minimize it. And I always did like the oppression Olympics, right? Like, well, at least I'm not on meth, so it's not that bad. And again, it was not the way to think about it, but that was just me stuck in survival mode. Yes. Uh, and justifica— uh, justif— justifying the, uh, the choices I was making, even though I knew they weren't serving me.

Yeah, I love that you are— you have this trauma-informed perspective where you're like, oh, it comes from trauma, and you also hold that you have to have responsibility for your actions as well. Um, I think that's That's so important.

Yeah, Hadley, some— one of the statements I make in training is, and again from myself, is no amount of trauma coming up is ever going to excuse like knowing right from wrong, right? Like, I knew the things I was doing was wrong. But here's the thing I want people to know is when you have a lot of trauma growing up, you develop apathy towards consequence. Because why? Because of confirmation bias, right? We're only going to surround ourselves with a reality that That like reinforces what we believe about ourselves, and so I knew the things I was doing was wrong. But if I could have an affair, get caught, and then my wife leave me, that validates the belief I have, which is like see marriage doesn't work, love isn't real, everyone leaves. It just reinforces my abandonment stuff that I was creating, right? And so it's not about knowing right and wrong, but when we develop apathy towards consequence, that's when problems really start to. persist because I expect to get in trouble. I expect to interface with law enforcement. I expect to get caught. I expect to have these terrible things keep happening in my life because I'm going to ensure that they do. And not enough people have had that realization yet, sadly.

Okay. I love that apathy toward consequence. That's so good. I'm writing it down. Yeah.

Hadlee and I are— I'm always taking notes with pencils and like, so if I ever look away, I'm like, oh, this is, this is great.

That's awesome.

One thing that I used to struggle with, and I wonder if you either have talked to people or resonate with this yourself, is that I have a high ACE score as well. And so I grew up, my father was a Marine. And

do we want to just explain what that means for people who are listening, if anyone doesn't know what that is?

Yeah, it's the Adverse Childhood Experiences study from Drs. Anda and Felitti. They were the original principals, started late '80s, '91. '91. It came out funded by the CDC in '94, and I can go into the whole history of it, but that's— it's basically, it was a 10-question assessment, but specifically determining public health outcomes from childhood trauma. All the questions are prior to your 18th birthday. And, um, and the last thing I'll say before we get back to what you were sharing is just because you have a high ACE score does not mean you cannot be a high achiever. There's a lot of people with high ACE scores that are high achievers. It's not a sentence, it's not a diagnosis, it's just awareness. And again, it's specific to public health outcomes.

Yeah, yeah. I love that you put that nuance in there. I think that's really brilliant, is that a high ACE score doesn't necessarily mean that you're not going to be successful or not going to be a high achiever. In fact, you and I are both, we would be testimonies to the opposite, that we're both high achievers. And so one thing that was a part of my schema growing up is that if the authority or the authoritarian perspective breaks me down and I change my behavior, then that reinforces the authoritarian perspective in continuing to use those methods. And so what I found is that I became my own worst enemy. Where I was like, I'm not going to grow and evolve and change because then that justifies all of this abuse that I experienced growing up. Because then they get to say, see, when I hit you, it just made you stronger. Or when I punished you for a month for going to a movie we didn't want you to go to, it just made you more of an achiever. So for many years of my life, I was like, I'm gonna fight and teach karma or God or my parents or whatever it was, be like, you see, I'm not gonna get better because that means that what you did was okay. So I just threw a lot at you, but as you're talking about that, that's what's coming up for me.

Yeah. And I just wanna thank you, uh, Dr. Cain, for sharing that. And I'm sure your audience that listens to you has heard your story, but I have not. And, uh, it means a lot to me. When people are willing to share, and I'm sorry for what you went through and the fact that your father was a Marine. And I think it's important to mention because again, in in my world, I train a lot of first responders and people that are former military, and similar to you, right? My dad was in the Navy, and people in our generation believe that like this corporal punishment thing because same with you. Like I never. experimented with marijuana. I never drank at an early age because I was absolutely terrified of my father. Now, if I didn't know any better, I would think like, well, see, I should be so grateful that I feared my dad growing up because I never did these bad things. And he's like, yeah, of course. See, you should— you're welcome.

Yeah.

And so now we have these people that are thinking like, no, that's what these kids need. And it's like, no, you don't realize when you are raising your children in a place of fear how much that's actually damaging them. How much that's actually destroying their ability to empathize or understand love or connection or the things that actually matter. And then the point you made too, where it's like, I'm gonna just forever play small then because I don't want to be seen. So I'm going to float beneath the radar. I'm going to always underachieve. I'm going to make sure I'm not visible to anyone because I just want to avoid every conflict possible. So how can I make myself as small as possible? And if you, you all didn't know this yet, like, we don't operate in a society that way. We operate in a society that rewards people that are seen. We operate in a society that rewards people that do get out there and that are front and center. And that's in business and politics and any achievement, athletes, you name it. Like the ones that get the most recognition, the most external reward, the most monetary value, the most whatever it is, the accolades and achievements are the ones that are the— that are seen the most. We live in a social media era. Well, now you have someone that's growing up with all this trauma and they're like, nope, I can't do that. And I'll tell you, I love that you shared that because as a business owner, this has been one of my most difficult hurdles is the social media and putting myself on camera to just share something because I'm like, no, it just feels so braggadocious. It feels like, like I don't want people to think I'm a narcissist. I'm like, I'm just— it's all about me. And like, oh, I was in a documentary and I've given a TEDx talk and I've done all this stuff. I read a I wrote a book. I'm an author. Like, oh, look at me. And so I'm like, I don't— I have not solved for how to promote myself and get out of my own head without making it bring up all kinds of shame of like, hey, never, never bring attention to yourself. Because the other side of that is when you bring too much attention to yourself, you know, there's violence on the other end of this as a child or as an adult. Now it's like there's going to be some massive instability where like your life is going to get significantly disrupted. So let's just avoid it. And, um, that's still to this day, I am trying really hard to overcome that because I do not love talking about myself. And when you own a business, that is like requirement 101. Talk about yourself, tell the world what you do and who you help. And I'm like, yeah, maybe they'll just find me on their own. So, um, yeah, it's, it's growth opportunities for sure.

It's like this— there's this fine line between self-care and selfishness and self-confidence and narcissism. And it's like we've pathologized that. And I would argue that the system is in place to pathologize that, to keep people small so that you have these power dynamics. And so then, as I'm saying that, I'm like, well, then I want to fight the system. So I'm like, I don't want to— I don't want to be complicit with the system, which is So this is good. You're actually therapizing me right now. You should send me a bill.

So then it's

a joint

session.

It's a joint session. So then it's like, okay, well then how can I fight the system? Well, fighting the system that's trying to make me small is by being big and owning that, yes, I can take care of myself without undermining the, the rights and the care of other people. And I can talk about myself without stomping on others to get to there. And, and so it's like, it's like just stilling out the nuance between this like subtle manipulation that may be taking place as a form of oppression and abuse. Hadz, what do you think?

I'm so resonating with this. Like the idea— there was a time where, you know, when I first started my business and everything, there was a time where I was like, should I even be trying to do this myself or should I be trying to like be in the background and lift someone else up who has experienced worse oppression or these different things. And I think that there's absolutely— it's important to uplift other people who have experienced more oppression, trauma, all of the things. And you also get to shine no matter what your background is. you're allowed to show yourself. And so, yeah, no, I'm resonating with this so much because that's been a really, really big fear of mine is that people will be angry with me that I am showing up in a big way when I have the privileged background that I do, which, yeah, it's a thing.

Right. Yeah. And I think It almost doesn't matter who you are. I imagine on every level someone has a very similar thought to that, is because I'm white, because I'm a man, because I'm a woman, because I'm— no matter what it is, it's like we, we all attach to us, or I don't want to overgeneralize, but many people attach to because I'm this, I shouldn't do this. And, and again, a lot of it is just thought work. A lot of it is just bringing awareness to our thoughts and then asking the hard question, which is like, Hmm. Where did this thought come from? Because what I open a lot of my training and sessions with is, if we can just start this out right away, I tell people I'm here to challenge all your BS, which is your belief system. And I tell them, if, if, if we can just accept the fact that everything we believe right now in our lives to be true is simply because somebody told us or we read it somewhere, well, what is that? Like, so many people inherit their their belief systems. It's just given to us from our parents, like why we believe what we believe— faith, money, relationships. It's just what was given to us and it's never been ours. And then there's this massive friction between like, who am I? Which is why, again, in my TEDx, If I See You, it's like I have developed the skill because I believe it is one to— especially as a cop, when I'm working on a mental health unit in a specialized unit in the 7th largest city here in San Antonio. Thousands and thousands of calls showing up to people on their worst day, whether they're acutely suicidal, they're threatening to jump off a bridge, they're barricaded in a bathroom, whatever it is. But seeing them in their worst moment of their life and telling them like, hey, I see you. And it's not about like, I don't see you as a culmination of this choice right now in this moment. I see the inherent good that is you, that there is a lot of things that had to go wrong in your life to bring us to this position today. And that's the person I want to know. Like, and I tell people, focus on the person, not the problem. The problem is what gives me permission to have my purpose as a first responder. If people didn't have problems, we wouldn't have a function, right? And so it's like, no, it's because they have their problems. We get our— we have permission to have our purpose. So now show up with that trauma-informed lens and think about what could possibly have gone wrong in this person's life to get them to this place they're in today. And instead of showing up with judgment and all this, like, you should know better because you're 30 or 45 years old and you You know right from wrong. It's like, no, no, no. Like, and I tell people, if that's your mindset, you should probably put more mirrors in your house because you've lost perspective that you also have a past. And especially for first responders and anyone that's in a position of power or influence, it's like, hey, let's not forget that many people that hold these positions are only there out of mere luck. And it's because something went well in your childhood. Not that maybe it was privilege, but maybe you just never got caught. Right? You never got caught doing that one little mistake that would have completely changed your life for the worse, even if for a short period of time. And so we have to maintain this perspective of like, okay, my beliefs are not my own. They were given to me by my family. How do I know that they gave me the best ones? And I have a belief that people are genuinely doing the best they can with what they have based on what they know. And if we could all just adopt that mindset of like, oh, It's not that this is a bad person. They just— this is, this is the best they can show up with based on what they know. All right. So it just creates neutral thinking, which to me is like a superpower. It's not about like toxic positivity. Everything's awesome always. And it's not about the doom and gloom of like everything's just terrible. But when we can really understand that the power of neutral thinking of every day is 50/50, it rains on the good and bad. Like Dr. Susan David says, the price of admission for a life well lived is suffering. Like, to live a full, robust, good life, it's going to be hard. And so we shouldn't expect nothing difficult to happen. We should anticipate for that. And we should see all those challenges as opportunities for awareness, not like, what can— what has someone else done to me? I'm a victim. But like, no, what is this telling me about me? And what splinter is this hitting on that I have not healed yet? Because anything that bothers me is because of me, has nothing to do with anyone else.

Mm. It's so good. Yeah. The idea that, well, my dad used to always say everyone is doing the best they can with what they've been given. Yes. And as a kid, it was like, I was like, it was hard. It was hard for me to get behind as a kid. 'Cause I was like, how would they not know that that's a terrible thing to do or whatever?

Yeah.

Um, but it's very trauma-informed. Um, and yeah, giving, giving everyone the benefit of the doubt while still holding them accountable to their actions too. I think that's like an important thing here as well. Um, is, is great. And what you were saying too is doing this for ourselves as well. Like you were saying at the very beginning, allowing yourself to have compassion for yourself and hold yourself accountable to your actions and behaviors and all of that kind of thing as well. So good.

So I want to talk a little bit more about how this— how you use this foundation of understanding practically in your work. Tell us about that.

Yeah. So I tell people there's 2 things that really like saved and changed my life. And, and the first one was therapy and just getting in and realizing like, oh, this isn't a scary place where I feel shame and guilt about this. And then 2 was the discovery of Stoicism about 7, 8 years ago. And Stoic principle. And I was listening to— it was an Impact Theory YouTube channel with Tom Bilyeu, and he had Ryan Holiday on there. And I'm like, He's talking about stoicism. I'm like, I've never even heard the word. I'm like, what is stoicism? What is this? But the things he was saying, I was like, whoa. And it just like woke me up. And then I became obsessed. And even like, you can't really see it because the bokeh effect on my camera, but that like frame back there is a Socrates quote and it says, I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only make them think. So as, as a person that owns a training company, I tell them on the onset, like, listen, I'm not here to teach you anything. I just want to plant seeds and make you think. And then Marcus Aurelius's quote too, of like the quality of your or the the happiness of your life depends on the quality of your thoughts. So we have a we have a model. It's a mind management model that we use, which I tell people is a culmination of stoicism, cognitive behavioral therapy, neuroscience, and life coaching. And in the model, and it's not like I didn't create this. Brooke Castillo, who created the Life Coach School. She has a model called CTFAR, and it's it's so CBT is basically thoughts, emotions, actions, actions. Life coaching—it's circumstances, thoughts, feelings, actions, results. I took that, tweaked it into STEER, which is situations, thoughts, emotions, actions, results. There's a hundred ways to do this, but the STEER model is something that we teach people of how to leverage your own mindset. Because in this life, people have taught us what to think, but nobody has taught us how to think. And I think we all have this. Great potential if we understood, like, we carry around a superpower and we just don't know how to access it. So the way I use this in my work is I've taken all of my own understanding and my own work and research and learning and consuming and reading and everything. And we've put together some training modules. We, we basically offer a 1-day, a 2-day, a 3-day, and a 5-day. training session, different packages. And it's not even just for first responders anymore. Our clientele has become pretty diverse. Our largest client is the Federal Bureau of Prisons, and so all the federal prisons fall under us. But then we have a client in California, which is the VTA, the Valley Transportation Authority, and we're training bus drivers and light rail workers. We've trained grocery store chains. So. It really is diverse. And for anyone listening to this too, wondering, like, I wonder how, you know, that would benefit our workplace. Because really what we're talking about is how to— what I call maximize the human capital, right? How can we maximize human experience to create a safe space where people get to feel valued, seen, and heard? And our testimonials are incredible. From like Hey, I came into this week absolutely convinced I was going to kill myself. You guys just gave me hope. That's high end. You can't put a price on that stuff. And then, you know, I wish I had this 20 years ago. I wonder what my career would have been like if I went through this training 2 decades ago, because for the first time ever, you helped me better understand myself. And what I tell every one of our clients is every training that your staff has gone to has always been about everyone else. Right. With the VTA, it's about the patrons getting on the bus. With the Bureau of Prisons, it's about the inmates, keeping them safe and from escaping. With police departments, it's always about the community. It's always about everyone else. And I'm like, well, at what point does it get to be about us? Like, at what point does it get to be about me? And I had that realization when I was a cop and it was like 15 years ago. I had that thought of like, all these trainings are great, but it's always about everyone else. When do we get to be selfish here? Because you're teaching me really well how to do my job, but you are not teaching me how to go home. Because when I'm home, I am suffering with intrusive thoughts and like a lot of anger, and I am mad at my family, and I don't know how to be emotionally available because I just saw a terrible situation today. And okay, so maybe you're not first responders. I don't want people to categorize this as like, well, it's not that bad. If you're sitting in a cubicle right now listening to this on a break and you just got an email that frustrated you, or you've been denied a day off for 2 months now and you feel yourself getting burnt out, this also applies to you, right? And too often we have people that are, one, doing things in their professional life that they were never really meant or called to do, but we get sucked into it. And God forbid there's a pension at the end, because then you become a prisoner to that pension. And so then you're just like, oh, I just got to do 19 more years. Like, wow, right? And there's so much voluntary suffering because we're not willing to step into our truth and take those chances of like, Yeah, this might fail, but I know I'm pursuing the thing that lights me up the most. And if we are not willing to get to that place, I, in fact, just because you asked this question, and I promise I'm not as scattered as maybe I sound, but I just want to share this because this just came in yesterday. Now, I will tell you that this is from a woman, and if she's listening to this or she hears this when I send it out. There's no, uh, ill will in what I'm sharing, but we train a lot of people. So this is— I don't know who this woman is, but she went through our training we did in Delray Beach, Florida last year, and her message to me was, Joe, I've been meaning to message you. I was at your training you did last year at Delray PD. It changed my life. Your focus on having an exit strategy opened my eyes. I started using my master's degree again on the side, and I started working as a therapist. After several months, I realized the mental toll being a cop was starting to take on me, my kids, and ultimately my family, and I was able to leave my job without any financial stress. My family is so much happier. I am so much happier. Life is so good, and I am infinitely grateful to you. This is a woman that had 2 years on as a cop, went through my training, and had a light bulb moment, was like, wait a minute, maybe I don't want to do this anymore. Maybe I want to do something else. She quit her job and now she's doing what she loves. She's lit up. Her family's happy. And like, but a year later to share that, that's the type of stuff where we come in and I tell people we don't do training, we do transformational experiences. And people really just get in a safe place, a psychologically safe place. They get to feel like this was powerful. And, and we've just put them into training modules because oftentimes that's what people are looking for.

As you're saying this, I'm thinking about all of those adaptive mechanisms which you touched on in the beginning. And so we, we have this early experience, we inherit epigenetic trauma, we inherit positive traits, we inherit toxicity, we inherit love, we inherit family, we inherit belief systems. And then from the moment that we're born, our brain is developing around that inheritance and every single experience that we have. And so I love what you're saying about how we inherit our— the way that we think. And what also happens is that the rest of our body is going to adapt to reinforce that. And so your gut microbiome is going to shift in order to aid in you being in whatever state that system has put you in. And your hormones are going to respond in turn, and your inflammation cells are going to respond in turn. And so what I think would be really interesting to see with your model as, as you work with more and more people is to actually see what happens with those. The ACEs says, you know, we have increased risk of cancers, increased risk of—

Right.

Heart disease, increased risk of depression and anxiety is to actually see not only that kind of a testimony, like how her lived experience is better, but how we're actually meeting a huge gap in the healthcare system where people are actually objectively getting healthier, that their body is getting healthier, that their gut microbiome is changing. Right. And I really love this because then the shift is not just spending thousands of dollars on functional testing and taking tons and tons of handfuls of supplements a day and trying to force the body back into the compliant state that you want, but rather going back, reverse engineering all those adaptive systems, and then letting the body and the mind re-equilibrate.

That is so beautiful. And your TEDx talk, if you haven't done one yet, because that's great. Um, yeah, yeah, no, it's powerful.

And,

you know, I tell people that When I was with the police department, no exaggeration, I was probably taking Aleve, ibuprofen, Excedrin, Migraine, something for headaches 5 to 6 days a week without fail for years. I've been gone for over 4 years, almost 4 and a half years, and I probably have taken a headache medicine maybe 3 to 5 times in the last 4 years. They're just gone. I'm down 35 pounds. And it's not because I started working out more. It's just I have so much less stress now. And the stress I do have as a business owner is like fun for me. I'm like, oh, we don't have any clients at the end of this year. Awesome. That means we got to figure this out. Like, it's fun. It's a game. And but that's very different than sitting in a fight or flight state consistently where it's like, no, I'm really in danger. I'm afraid of like I've done something terrible. I don't like this situation I'm in. And sitting in those environments where you're just constantly stressed out, because as I learned in therapy, that when you're when your normal is chaos, it is so uncomfortable to have any level of like homeostasis in your life because we don't know how to function in that space. And so if you grew up in an environment where it's there's constant instability and divorce and separation and violence witnessed or experienced, and now you're an adult, you're like, okay, well those things aren't happening. But you're gonna experience all kinds of anxiety, probably because you're like, this is abnormal. Like, healthy is abnormal. So let me create. And your body wants all of those things that it was doing to survive before, 'cause that's what it's gotten used to. And now you're like, okay, I wanna go back and reverse engineer this. Now we're talking about the whole like biohacking industry of like the good stuff. Because for me, uh, and this was my problem as a VA patient, was, hey, I have these headaches. And they're like, oh, let me send you half a gallon of Vanitol. And I'm like, I'm like, whoa, like it even says on the bottle, like not for personal use. Like this thing was supposed to go to a pharmacy and you're sending me all this, this medicine. And I'm like, I don't wanna— same thing with Lexapro. Take a Lexapro, take— and I'm like, I don't wanna take Lexapro. Like what else is there where I don't have to take this medicine and be dependent on this medicine to feel better? Like what can we do? Um, and so that's been my commitment to really trying to like understand the mindset side of this, like how I jokingly tell people my 5th book is going to be titled Monks Don't Take Medication, because I do believe that we can think our way to sickness and think our way into health. But it's just about the brain only sees what it focuses on, right? And so when you learn to supervise it and manage it, you can have an incredibly beautiful life. And I know people might say like, oh, how privileged or how like easy for you to say that. It has not been easy. But I can tell you now, as someone that used to have very dark thoughts, And now my thoughts are incredible about like vision casting and like what I want for my life and where I'm going in my business and the amount of people I want to help and influence and inspire. Like that to me is talk about such a shift. When your mindset shifts on what you focus on, you start to create this reality in your world. Your body is going to respond to that and meet you where you are. And I think we have to understand that nuance there of if your thoughts are dark and depressing and sad and scary and self-loathing and just punishing yourself, your body's going to react to that as well. And it's not serving you, um, the way you would want it to, I'm sure.

Yeah. And I love, I love that you are— often when we've had a lot of trauma in our lives, or, um, people who have just, who have experienced really, really challenging lives, the, the one thing that makes them end up being successful is that there was one person, one person in their life that was a pattern interrupter, that was— that saw something in them that they could actually be something different. And that's what you are for all of these people.

That's all I want to be. That's all. And that's so powerful. I don't know if I'm allowed to call you Hads, but I heard her do it. And so we're friends now.

But go for it. I love when people call me Hads.

Yeah, no, I love what you said, Hats. And, and for me, part of my, like, vision— so a powerful thing that I'm going to share with your audience that I think would be interesting for them to do, and even for you both, is as I was leaving my career as a cop, a mentor told me, he said, Joe, I want you to write your obituary. And I was like, whoa, man, like, that's morbid. Like, good God, man, what are we doing here? And he was like, no, no, just take your time. Don't rush it. Take a couple weeks. I really want you to think about it. And then when you're done, Send it to me and we'll set up another Zoom. So I did it. I meet with him. I'm like, what's the point? And he said, listen, most people, a vast majority of people go through their whole life, they die, and their best hope is that someone kind of close to them is going to write some nice stuff about them. But that wouldn't be things that they ever would want written about them, most likely. He goes, now you just took ownership of your life. Now he goes, let this be a living document and a guidepost as you experience challenges in your business and in your personal life. Look at this. If it's not on here, it's probably not that big of a deal. This is the stuff that actually matters to you. And I was like, whoa. And it has come into handy for— it's been very handy over these last 4 years. But in that, my last paragraph, I put basically the future of my company, where I see this all going, is I want to start a philanthropic endeavor where I love speaking at schools, high schools, middle schools, like inspiring children. Because just as you mentioned right there, Hads, I had that experience. And I didn't even know at the time that that's what's— that's what was happening until years later, over a decade later. I'm in therapy and my therapist asked me, tell me one positive memory you have from an adult growing up. And right away it was like clear as day, like, oh yeah, Janice Waterhouse, Rich Trowbridge, my soccer coach, my English teacher, like those two. And so he was like, tell me about it. And then he was like, I want you to write them a letter and telling them I'm like, that's weird. Powerful, powerful about expression of gratitude. And so I tell people this, it takes one interaction, one moment with one child, one time to totally transform their life. And so why not show up as the adult, as the mentor, as the guide to be that like beacon of hope? I love speaking at schools and just giving some talks, like inspirational talks to them. And so many times I've done these where these kids will come up and they're just in tears crying of like, hey, your home life is my home life. And like, things are not going well, but you're giving me hope that like, if this is the outcome, if I can get there. And I'm like, yes, like it is hard and you don't deserve what's happening. But like, if you just commit to holding on and figuring it out, it's beauty on the other side of it. And I never want to make it sound like it's simple or minimizing someone else's experience because it's hard. If, if you think it's hard, it's hard. But, um, all it takes is that one moment for someone to totally disrupt the pattern, as you said. And so I just, I want to shout out to my childhood influences in upstate New York at Hadley-Lazurn High School. Uh, they're just so impactful in my life and a big reason as to why I am where I am today. And I didn't even know it until hindsight reflection.

It's so good.

So those, those who are listening, is, is if you will do this exercise, is I love the exercise of writing your obituary. And if it doesn't make it on there, then it's probably not an important part of your life. And so that, that kind of helps with not sweating the small stuff and like really figuring out what's important to you, because a lot of us feel so buried By all, all the things. So I love that. And then I also love what you said about the gratitude there. If there's one person— and so I'm kind of searching the files in my mind who that person would be— and I love the idea of writing a letter of gratitude, even if you don't send it to them, but writing that letter.

Yes.

And then I love the third call to action in that, is there somebody that you could be that person for? Is maybe there's volunteer work, or there's somebody in your life that you could be that person for. One of, one of the greatest antidotes for depression is service and volunteer work. So I love that you, you mentioned that aspect of it too.

I love it. I love it. You got— you are, you are both my tribe. I didn't know you an hour ago, and now we're like besties, and you just were speaking the same language. And Forgive me for throwing myself into your tribe, but you're both in mine. I don't want to invite myself, but come

in. Yes, I feel the same.

Absolutely.

It's so powerful though. And, uh, again, I think, you know, now that you— because when I did the obituary, I didn't know what the point was. And so your listeners now know the point. And so put even more thought into it knowing, but don't make it like— I would give yourself a cap too. Like mine is one, it's one page on a Word document. And you don't have to use that, but just you don't want it to be nine pages and you're listing that you're getting in the micro level of things because again now you're just that's a thought download. But what is the thing you want to actually? What is the legacy you want to leave behind? I tell people on my tombstone when I do die, I just wanted to say Joseph Morrow, 1981 to whatever year I die, and the only thing I want on it is the word love. That's it. I don't want dedicated this that. The only thing I want to be remembered for. Is like, that guy loved hard. Like, he loved everybody. And it didn't matter if they were a repeat offender, if they made terrible choices and spent 50 years in prison. It did not matter. He genuinely believed that people deserve love, um, because for a long time he didn't know that he himself deserved it. And, and so that's all I want to be known for. And that's how my obituary ended, is Joe wanted to be remembered in one word, and that is love. And that's all I want on my tombstone. Like, it's all thought out now. I hope it's like 50, 60 years away, but I already know like that's the thing that I'm living my life to find my own alignment. And it helps you like not really get in the weeds and stress of the day-to-day mundane, like bills and kids and family and stress and politics and who's in where and all the stuff that's just outside of our control, which is why I love Stoicism so much because it really simplifies life, which is Is this in my control or is it not? This tattoo on my arm, it says amor fati, and it's just love of fate. If it's happening to you, it's happening for you. You can either learn the lesson or keep the pain. I choose to find the lesson. And, and then just one more. I love quotes, but something that comes to mind for your audience is when you can learn to become grateful for the things you wish never happened. And Nicole, you're sharing you have a similar background to me, but— and I imagine you have to experience the success in the place you are in your life. But when you can learn to become grateful, I wish I was never sexually abused. I wished I was never physically abused. I wish my parents didn't get divorced. I wish none of these terrible things happened. But I've now learned to experience gratitude in them. Why? Because it's the one thing that like shapes my entire life of what gives me the most purpose. I can go into any room and captivate an audience because they're like, whoa. That's a powerful story, and we know facts tell and stories sell. And so when you tell a story and someone can see themselves in your story, they're like instant, like, oh, like, and we want to be careful not to trauma bond. But at the same time, it's like when people can connect with you in that level, it's so powerful how you can move someone to take that next step, bet on themselves, do something that they weren't willing to do before, quit their job. Ask for the promotion. Ask the girl out. Ask the guy, like whatever you want. But stop playing small. Stop being so afraid because you're no longer ashamed of the things that happen to you. You're now grateful for them because you've learned the lessons of why they needed to happen in your life so that you could better show up and maybe help someone else.

That's brilliant. That's wonderful. So people are probably going to want to learn a lot more about you and how to be in touch with you. We'll for sure put it in the show notes. But

thank you.

Your favorite thing, your favorite way to connect with people, how can they find you?

I'm trying really hard, as we talked about, to grow my social. So Instagram, LinkedIn, Facebook, in that order. And then I have a personal website as well, which is just joesmarrow.com. My business website is all spelled out and that's solutionpointplus.com. So, and then my book Unarmed is on Amazon and it is It's everywhere you buy books, but it's on Amazon as titled Unarmed. But you can also buy it from the website as well. So that's, and I'm Joe Smarro on Instagram, LinkedIn. It's it's all the same everywhere. So Joe Smarro or Solution Point Plus is where I will be found. On YouTube, you can watch the TEDx. If you just put my name on the on YouTube, it'll come up. And then I was also featured in an Emmy Award-winning documentary called Ernie and Joe Crisis Cops. Um, and that came out in 2019. And so, yeah, you just put my name in the— in Google and you'll get all the things.

That's brilliant. I love it.

And we'll put all that stuff in the show notes too, so people can—

Perfect. Thanks, Hads.

Yay!

I just wanted to say it again.

I love that we're all best friends now.

Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for being here. This has been just incredible. So much value. We could probably talk for hours more, but they can learn all about you from your, from your book, your TED Talk, all that good stuff. And Solution Point Plus, I'm really excited about that. So Joe, you rock. Thank you. I honor you. I see you. Grateful for you. Keep it up.

Thank you both. I wish you all the best on your journeys and your podcast and be well.

Thank you. Bye, everyone.