The Joy of Less: Finding More in Simplicity With Courtney Carver | Ep. 139

Hey, Hadlee. I think giving our all is highly overrated. What about you?

Oof. What a, what a thing to say. And I would, I would follow that up with consistency is so much more important than intensity.

Oh, girl. You guys, We just had the most beautiful conversation with Courtney Carver, and just because her writing is so beautiful and her bio, I think, describes her personality so beautifully, I'm gonna just read you just a teeny little excerpt from this bio. So it says, Courtney Carver writes things. She wrote a book called Soulful Simplicity and the simplicity blog, bemorewithless.com. She shares things that make her laugh and cry on Instagram @bemorewithless. She doesn't know her Myers-Briggs type, but she knows she's an introvert because she needs to be free from humans several times a day. Bracket, cats and dogs are always welcome. And aside from her seasonal wardrobe, she doesn't count her things. Courtney is the author of her brand new book, Gentle Rest More, Stress Less, and Live the Life You Actually Want. She's also authored other works such as Project 333 and Soulful Simplicity. And you can connect with her on her website, bemorewithless.com. And of course, on Instagram @bemorewithless. And I'm really, really excited for y'all to hear this conversation. What for you, Hads, what stuck out?

I mean, there were so many things that she said that I was like, Wait, that's a whole— that's a whole thing that we need to unpack, like, completely, because, because there were so many pieces of the conversation where she just dropped this wisdom that was totally— that's totally counter to how we think in our society. And so there are— I mean, for me, and I talk about this stuff, like, a lot of the stuff that she was saying, like, this is my jam. I do a lot of this stuff with my clients, but The way that she communicates things, I had a bunch of mind-blowing moments. I was like, oh yes, that, it's so good.

Hadlee and I were both writing notes down.

Yeah,

actually, I always, when I'm writing notes, I always then like lift my pen so that they can see the visual cue that that's like why I've like looked away so much, is I don't want them to think I'm like Instagram scrolling or something, that Like, actually, I'm so engaged, I can't not write. I don't know if you ever noticed that. I just, like, casually, I'm like, I'm leaning on my pen right here.

I love that. That's so cute.

You're gonna see it now. You're gonna be like, oh, there's Kane.

Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Oh my gosh.

Yeah. Yeah.

You guys are gonna take a lot away from this. Um, it's, it's really about designing the kind of life that you want, but in a very gentle and simplistic way, because that's what our souls really want is simplicity. We don't want necessarily all of the stuff and all of the busyness and all of the things. And she has some really practical, tactical ways to get to a place where we have— where we feel more of that simplicity in our lives.

Oh, without further ado, let's dive in then.

Let's do it. Thank you so much for being here, Courtney. I am so excited for this conversation. I've been loving listening your pop-up episodes of your podcast and checking out your books. And I'm really excited to read the new book. Thank you. Yeah. Do you want to tell us just a little bit about yourself, a little bit about who you are, what brought you on this journey? And I would love to hear about your other books too, because those are also very rich with awesome stuff. But yeah, do you want to just take us on a little journey of Of, uh, where you came from?

Sure. Well, I started really sharing my life online in 2010 with my blog, bemorewithless.com. And I started that to share my health and simplicity journey because prior to 2006, neither of those things were super important to me. It was more of a, like, getting all things done all the time lifestyle, doing whatever I could to make ends meet, constantly overachieving, giving my all, doing my best, like, climbing the ladders. All of the metaphors you could possibly think about were my life. And in 2006, all of that changed pretty rapidly after being diagnosed with multiple And ironically, I was diagnosed while I was completely burnt out at work and volunteering and training for the MS150, which is a cycling event here in Salt Lake to raise funds for multiple sclerosis.

Hmm.

Yeah. So my boss had MS and I was riding for him. And when I got sick, Of course, that never crossed my mind. And after months of testing, I had that diagnosis. And after some fear and uncertainty, I had this giant permission slip to finally prioritize myself and whatever it would take to feel better and be well and live my life in a— Yeah. A way that resonated more with me versus what I thought I was supposed to be doing in life. I don't really think I understood the benefits of adulthood until then. It was just like, it just felt so full of responsibility and like, here's how you're supposed to act and these are the things you should do and should want in your life. And this Diagnosis changed my life in the best way because it said, throw that all out the window. It's not working for you. How do you really want to live?

Okay. I love what you just said, that you didn't recognize the benefits of adulthood until that point. Like, I feel like people talk about adulting is so hard, right? Like, oh my gosh, adulting is so hard. I've always kind of thought of it in that similar vein. Like, I do not want to be a child again. I actually had a pretty good childhood, but I love being an adult and having agency and autonomy. And so what you're saying, it sounds like, is taking back that agency and autonomy and being like, this is how I get to be in adulthood.

Right. Making it look like everyone else's adulthood, I guess. And I learned this late in life, late in adulthood, but it made such a difference for me. And not that I figured it all out right away, that's for sure. But just to be able to start asking questions like, how does this make me feel?

Hmm.

What happens when I sleep a full 8 hours? How do these foods Yeah. Make me— how does it affect my energy? Like, just really simple, basic questions that I didn't have time to ask. And when I did have time to ask, I certainly didn't have time to listen to or trust the answers that I had. And I think part of that was because it's so noisy out there. Like, everyone else has great answers too, so it's sometimes hard to dissect. what is coming from inside and what's coming from outside. And I think part of it too was being afraid to listen to the answers because once I knew, then I would have to make changes.

I was thinking about that as you were saying that, is you're going in one direction and it sounds like very high achieving and doing, doing, doing, and then There's this letting go that has to happen to get from point A of that doer mindset to where you are now and where you are today. And I, I know for me, I resonate very much with the always say yes, always do all the things, and how I desperately need to let go of probably most or a lot of that at least. and step into more gentle living. But there's this, like, fear and grief that can come from point A to point B. And I was wondering if you could talk more about that.

Sure. You're reminding me of this woman that I talked to at a book event years ago, who I was there sharing my story, kind of what I've just shared with you. And how I've slowed down as a result. And she also had MS, and she said, I don't understand. Ever since my diagnosis, I've been really speeding up because I'm afraid that if I don't, I'm not gonna get everything done before I get really sick, as if that was a foregone conclusion. And my thought pattern was, if I keep up this unsustainable pace, I am going to get really sick. But perhaps if I slow down and realize that a lot of the stuff that I think I have to do, I really don't have to do. But because we're so used to this, like, kind of proving ourselves by our accomplishments, by how much we get done every day, by how fast we get things done, it's hard to break out of that. And I think that— I mean, for me, there wasn't a lot of grief around letting that go, only because it felt so good to slow down, to take a beat, to rest. And I noticed the benefits pretty quickly. So I wasn't afraid of letting that part go. I was more afraid of, you know, not being able to help my daughter with her homework. Or waking up and not being able to see, or not feeling my feet hit the ground. Those were the things that were scaring me. It wasn't, I'm gonna miss out on a bunch of stuff. I'm not gonna do all the things. I'm going to be saying no a lot. Those are the things that actually propelled me to feel better and better.

Yeah, I hear it. It's sort of like, well, I'm not saying no to a faster car. It's I'm saying no to not being able to feel my feet or not being able to see. It's like the trade-off is different when you're, you're doing it in, in awareness of the effects on the mind and the body. And I think that's a powerful sort of reframe of, well, you're not just letting go of getting a Bentley. You're And you still could get a Bentley, who knows? But you're letting— you're, you're choosing your health, you're choosing longevity, you're choosing getting to do homework with your children and, you know, do these other things. And so I appreciate that.

Yeah. And I think through that process, I realized that the things that I thought I cared about, um, weren't the things I really cared about. And I mean, Cars were never really it for me, but if they were, it, it started— everything, I guess, seemed to be more about function versus, hey, look at me in my fancy car, or look at me in my great suit or new dress or high heels or whatever it was. And not that I was consciously running around thinking that, but— Once I unpacked it and kind of shed that version of myself, I could see how much proving I was trying to do. I really wanted people to see me in a certain way, and that isn't even who I was, which I don't know, it's a lot of unpacking if you start digging in.

How does that process look for people? And so I'm kind of wondering about this, like, contemplation phase of change. So someone reads your book, they listen to this episode, and they're like, okay, I'm willing to, I'm willing to dabble, maybe not let go of it yet. So let's start unpacking and see. Tell us about that.

Well, it didn't start with any of these realizations at all. I didn't know. All I knew is that I wanted to live with less stress because my research showed that I would live better with MS. with less stress in my life. And I was really focused in the beginning on the how-to, like, how can I take action? What are the steps I can take? What can I change in my life to reduce this stress? And so I think that approaching it in a practical way like that can be really helpful because it takes away that overwhelm of everything that may have to change and how you may evolve. I mean, Who really knows until you get started? So, for instance, debt was a huge stressor in my life. And I had gone into debt when I was 18 and never came up for air until this MS diagnosis. And I and my husband, we together, we decided we would become debt-free. And we didn't know how long it would take or what that would look like, but we just started the path. of pulling back on our spending and paying our debt down. And in that process, we could also start to look at other things like our stuff, the stuff in our home. It was stressful, and I had never seen it that way before, and maybe wouldn't have if I hadn't started paying the debt off. But the stuff in my home was a constant reminder of that debt. Like, why did I buy all this stuff that— I don't even practically notice in my house anymore. And why do I need it? Just because I bought it and spent money on it, does that mean I'm responsible to hold on to it until the end of time? Or can I let go and see what it's like to have more space in my house? And so that, from the debt came the— our clutter-free portion of simplifying. And from there it was, wow, like, I don't have any debt. I don't have as much stuff. Maybe we don't need so much house. Maybe we could downsize, which we did. And then now that I don't have this ridiculous mortgage and all of this stuff to take care of and these other needs that I thought I would always have, do I need to keep this job I have, or might I do something that I enjoy more? Each thing led to the next thing. So I think the most important thing to do is to start really small, and don't worry if you don't know what you're doing, because I don't think most of us do when we start. But the more space that I created, the more room I had to listen for those bigger revelations.

I love that you talk about that because a lot of times I feel like when people are talking about You know, going more minimalist and paring down and all of that kind of thing. They talk about like the clutter in their house. But I think taking a bird's eye view and looking at the big things too, not just the little things that are cluttering our homes, is huge. And that's something that I've actually talked a lot with my husband about, is a lot of times when we go to buy a home, We actually end up paying way more than we ever would for to rent like an apartment or whatever. It's like, well, I don't want to buy a home that only has one bedroom, even though I would be renting a place that only has one bedroom for like the next couple of years if I weren't buying. Um, and so taking all of that into consideration, I really love that you say that.

Yeah, I mean, there's, there's so much to consider. I mean, I, I don't know if we have time to talk about buying versus renting, but yeah, right. I don't think there's a one right answer when it comes to that. I've done both. When we downsized, we went from— I think we had over 2,000 square feet, pretty big house for 3 people at the time. And when we were done decluttering, we had empty rooms in the house.

Yeah.

So we knew that we could easily downsize, and we downsized to a 750-square-foot apartment with no storage space, And there were a handful of things that I had in boxes, and I thought, I'll just put these in storage in the new place and decide later what to do with them because they were important to me. We didn't end up taking them, and you couldn't pay me to tell you what was in those boxes that were so important. I have no idea. It wasn't that important, but we love to trick ourselves into believing so much of our stuff is so, special. But I feel like when you have too much stuff, then nothing's special. It's like, when everything is, nothing is. And so we lived in an apartment for a long time, and then in 2020, we purchased a house. Still less than, I guess about half the size of our first house. But we— it was so interesting to look at what was important to us then, because we had already gone through this big process of decluttering and really figuring out how we wanted to live and how we wanted to spend our time in a space. And so we weren't looking for the big closets and the extra cabinets and storage space and a big garage. None of that was important to us. Like, the top of our list was light, natural light. Mm-hmm. We just wanted the house to be flooded with light. And that was something I had never even considered when looking for a place before. So it was just so such a great way to see how our, our needs and wants and, and values had changed.

I love that. I feel like that, you know, it's a concept that we can talk about as an example with the house, but I feel like it's such a great concept for all facets of our life, all areas of our life where it's, it's not just about decluttering the stuff, but like What are, what are my values? What do I actually want to be living on a day-to-day basis?

Right. And that really having a good understanding of that helps you with your to-do list, with your planner and calendar, with your career planning, with your conversations. I mean, really everything, because I think for a lot of us, the natural solution to our problems is more, like seeking more of more money, more time, more energy, more whatever. And yes, we do want more energy, more sleep, more of a lot of things, but a lot of other things we want less of. I mean, if we have fewer things to take care of, for me, having fewer choices in my closet makes a really big difference in terms of how my day goes. You know, I don't want to be obsessing over things I don't care about. And it makes it a lot easier for me to say no to things, or when things pop up in my Instagram feed that have nothing to do with me, for me to just get out or keep going or whatever it is. It's very hard to— for me to get caught up in the drama of anything or— Just things that remove me from my life. I just don't have time for it anymore.

I think about how these things could also be representations of unmet needs. And I think about how, like, I have a box in the basement in my house, and it has gifts that I got as a kid. It has, like, really special stuffed animals that I loved as a kid. And I grew up in a house where there was a lot of emotional neglect. And so those objects, it was like, oh, I got this gift from my dad when he came back from Japan from being away for a year and a half. So this is that love that I missed out on. And so I still have this doll. And, and so I think that there's an invitation here that you're inviting us is to look at what is coming up for us when we think about this item. And we're trying to make that decision between, do I keep this item or do I let this item go? And if there's something that's being activated with this item, is, is allowing ourselves to be curious about what it means. And if there's something for healing going on, or maybe it is something that we keep, maybe I'll always keep that little doll. But I love that it gives us space that this like art of less, this art of simplifying, and we're figuring out what really matters to us is that then we have this gift of being able to do some really deep inner child work.

Yeah, and I think you will also become much more discerning about what you bring into your life. In the future because you'll have that background to work with, like whatever it is that you have come up with in, in doing those, that analysis of your connection with certain things.

Oh, I so, so feel that. I, I used to be like, you know, the kind of person who like anytime you got freebies, I'd be like so excited about like the freebie things. And now I'm like, don't you dare give me that freebie. I don't want it in my house.

Right, right.

Yeah,

I was really big into the, you know, you buy this thing and then you get this thing. You buy this thing you don't need and you get this, uh, free thing that you don't want.

Right, right.

So you wrote this book and it's, it, it's like brand new and I'm so excited about it and it's called Gentle Rest More, Stress Less, and Live the Life You Actually Want. And you've broken it into 3 sections. There's Rest, Less, and Rise, right?

That's right.

So yeah, they—

yeah.

Yeah, I'd love to learn more about that, more about each.

Sure. So the Rest, Less, and Rise are the 3 seasons of Gentle, and each season has Yeah. Chapters that are actually practices in those seasons. And the practices help you connect with, know, and trust the gentle you, which is a way of saying yourself, your inner self. Not your inner critic, not all the voices that have seeped in over the years from other people, but the real, Gentle You. And each practice comes with tiny steps because I think that habit change and kind of changing our lives is tricky and overwhelming, and we need small— a small, tiny way in to kind of close that gap between inspiration and action. And then I've also included a gentle step because sometimes the tiny steps are too big. Yeah. Yeah. You know, if we're in a period of life that we're just really— have too much going on, we might need the gentlest little step. And I think the whole book gives you permission to start giving yourself permission to take that tiny, tiny, gentle step whenever you need it. So I think oftentimes throughout the day, we'll deny ourselves certain things. Like if we're working, we'll say, okay, as soon as I'm done with this, then I'll go get that drink of water, or then I'll go pee, or then I'll have a snack. But why can't we give ourselves what we need when we need it? I mean, granted, we're not going to interrupt our podcast conversation to do that unless we had to, I guess. But there's multiple times during the day where we can take care of ourselves that Yeah. We put it off because on some level, we think we have to earn it or deserve it. And one of my new rules of adulthood is you don't have to. You can just take it. So that, I think, applies to rest, to self-care throughout the day, and to simple pleasures, which is a chapter in the book about giving yourself simple pleasures every single day. Like, you don't have to earn your treats anymore if you have been. And I think simple pleasures are often already in our life, but we just then romanticize them a little bit. So it might be our morning coffee or tea, a walk, you know, things that we might take for granted that are happening, but that we're just rushing through or we're doing them while we're doing 10 other things. Yeah. Can we make them more special and really enjoy that particular moment? And then I guess I'm kind of bouncing all over the place here, but the cycle or the seasons of gentle, rest, less, and rise aren't a one-and-done. They're things that you might go through over and over again depending on where you are in your life and what you're working on and focused on. And so you may feel like, Yeah. You need a little extra rest, and then you wanna clear some space for this next rising, whatever that is. And I think at first when people hear, you know, be gentle, be soft, connect with yourself, there's a little bit of a disconnect because you think, well, if I'm going to be gentle, then I'm not going to accomplish my goals or stand up for what I believe in or support the things I want to support. But actually, this is just giving you a platform. Like, the gentle you is the ground that you need to rise from and do the things that you actually want to do. And I just think there's a big difference between rising from that place and being exhausted and trying to give from that place, or— At least for me, there was always this feeling of like trying to get there. Like my goals and the way I was living my life was always to get there. I don't even know where there is anymore, but to get there. But every time I was trying to get there, I didn't get to be here, which that's all we get. This is it. So I think to, to really let yourself off the hook, For trying to be some version of yourself that you're not really helps you start showing up for yourself in the moment.

Yes, I love it. Instead of doom scrolling and being in a freeze state, you actually go do the things because you're allowing yourself to be gentle with yourself all of the other times of the day.

Exactly. Or you rest, or you set a timer when you turn on Instagram because you are more intentional about how you want to live your life and spend your time.

I love that. Can you speak a little bit to the listeners who might be listening and being like, okay, yeah, I want to, um, I want to have more of this, these simple pleasures, um, or not even have more of them, but actually enjoy the simple pleasures. What about the people who they kind of, they maybe do have these simple pleasures, but they're not allowing themselves to really like, soak in them because they feel guilty about having those simple pleasures.

I work with a lot of people who have talked about this, and this comes from this, like, instilled feeling of having to earn our joy, earn our rest, prove that we're worthy of enjoying our lives. And It's some pattern interrupt. You really have to break that cycle by noticing that guilt when it comes up and also deciding, like, is this guilt because am I doing something wrong by listening to great music while I drink my coffee? Or do I feel uncomfortable because I'm really taking care of myself? And I don't normally do that. And I haven't— I know I haven't proven myself worthy of this to anyone today, including myself. That's uncomfortable. And practicing. So feel the guilt, have the simple pleasure, and then do that again and again. And I mean, sooner or later, the simple pleasure is going to win. Because you will see that this isn't changing anything other than making you more excited for your life. You deserve joy. You don't have to earn it. And it is something that we've all, I think most of us, been conditioned to believe, you know, or that's why we don't take a break until our 2-week vacation, if we even get a 2-week vacation. And now everyone's checking their email on vacation. So when do we get a break? Like, and who's going to give it to us is the bigger question. Nobody but us.

Uh, I love that. And I love that you said, is it even guilt? That's a big reframe. Like, is it even guilt or is it just an uncomfortable feeling because we haven't done it in the past. My mind is blown.

I mean, wow, I'm glad. Guilt is, I think I'm defining this right, it's feeling bad because you did something wrong. I mean, is anything about enjoying a simple pleasure wrong? And is resting wrong? Is taking care of ourselves wrong? Saying no, wrong. No, it's not. And I think we're— at least I'm picking up that there's a shift happening. And I think the more that people talk about it and demonstrate it, the more accepted it's going to be and the less discomfort there's going to be around it. But also, I think there's a long road for sure.

And I think so much of it is programmed. It's like inherited programming. Right.

And, but what we have to remember is that we're then programming the people around us by continuing this cycle. So if I'm always around my daughter saying, oh my gosh, I'm so busy, or I don't have time to do that, or I got to cut this call short because I have to do all these things, or no way, I could never stop for coffee, then won't she internalize that as well? I mean, I, I want the joy for myself and I want it for her. I want her to take it without a second thought. So the deprogramming of ourselves impacts everyone around us. And especially for people pleasers, I think that might offer a little incentive because you are doing great things for the people around you by taking care of yourself in this way.

So how can we tangibly start doing that? I know in your book you talk about Little Saturdays. I found that to be just lovely. So maybe you can talk about that and then other tips, like little tips or gentle tips that our listeners can start to use as they're gearing up to get your book.

Sure. So Little Saturdays are Yeah. It's a Nordic tradition, and I hope I don't pronounce it wrong, but it's originally called Lillerdag, and it's about taking a day during the week that is like a little Saturday, a bit of the weekend. So they typically celebrate on a Wednesday night, and we started incorporating this after just feeling the rut of the weeknights and, you know, eating dinner, watching TV, and really kind of falling into that autopilot life. And we decided— we still, we weren't really wanting to like go out and do anything during the week on a school night, but we wanted to make it a little special so that it didn't seem like such a long stretch between Monday and the weekend. So we started a ritual where we made a list of our favorite movies, and once a week we would choose our favorite movie, order takeout or delivery, go for a walk until the food was delivered, and then enjoy the takeout and watch the movie. And I think people can celebrate a little Saturday in any way they want, or come up with another ritual that— breaks up the week for them. So again, it just— I guess for people especially who are really like, trying to push through to get to the weekend, this gives you a little stop in between and maybe gives you a chance to slow down and rethink what the hurry is and how things might need to change if you are trying to hurry through.

I love that. Yeah, that's something I talk about with my clients is, you know, waiting for a vacation, waiting for the weekend, whatever it is. What if your life was like designed in a way that you didn't feel like you needed to have a vacation all the time or the weekend all the time?

Yeah, I mean, I certainly still like to travel and take vacations and do fun things.

Same.

But I like having a much slower pace so that by the time I get to take a vacation, I'm not completely worn out and have to spend like, 3 days just figuring out the slowdown, and then it's time to come home. And then in terms of gentle steps, kind of, I think really figuring out where you are and what you need the most is really important. Yeah. And to be able to take just small chunks of time to check in and see how you're feeling, because it's hard to do that on the go. So even if it's only 5 minutes, if you can sit quietly and just take a deep breath and check in and just have a conversation with yourself— I mean, maybe to yourself if you're in public, but like, how am I feeling? What do I wanna do today? What would make my day better? What's some small way that I can take care of myself today? It doesn't have to be this life-changing thing that we're doing. I think consistency is so much more important than intensity. So to every day have those 5 minutes will be so much more powerful than 2 hours over the weekend trying to plan out your life.

Oh, you are so speaking my language. Consistency is so much more important than intensity. I love that.

And I hear, I hear resistance coming up. And so I'm thinking about a patient that I saw yesterday, and this patient is working 3 jobs, and over the weekend they'll go 36 hours without sleeping. And so they come in and they have Really high blood pressure. Their, their bottom number is always over 100. That's their diastolic. It should not be that high. Oh. Yeah. Very, very high blood pressure. They have, their labs are abnormal. They have really high stress hormone cortisol, just a lot of pain, all anxiety, insomnia, all these things. And I was trying to have a conversation with them about why are you working 3 jobs? What? This could be an obstacle to cure for you. How could your body not be in this state? I don't know how that's possible. I don't think that there's enough supplements that I could give you that would counterbalance that. And for this person, it was pure economics. And so they, they acquired debt, and the cost of living is really high. They're trying to obtain an education, so it's school is really expensive. And so some people, they have the ability to make a big overhaul and some people don't. And so what I love about your work is that it doesn't have to be big and drastic and demanding. When you were saying like consistency, and I know that stuck out to you, Hadlee, is that even just 5 minutes a day. can have a big impact if you don't have a whole Saturday to take off, if you have to work, is at least if you can carve out little gentle wins. And so I'm curious if you could speak a little bit more to that.

Uh, sure. And I'm really glad you brought that up because for starters, I think there's a lot of privilege in being able to make changes in your life. Um, when I was making these changes in my life, I was working all the time. I was very deep in debt. It felt like an impossible time to change, and it also felt like there won't be any more times. I'm not going to get a lot of other chances if I don't figure this out. And so I completely forgot the actual question, but I'm just thinking about how for people who are in a difficult phase of life, Trying to undo, whether it be the debt or the overwork or whatever it is, taking steps that they may not have considered before. So, for instance, I don't know what these 3 jobs are, and I know you weren't asking me to contribute on this, so feel free to cut it out. But how much time and energy is she giving to the jobs, and how much could she cut back without anybody noticing? Because we're also— not only are we programmed to deny ourselves rest and joy, we're also programmed to give our all, do our best. And I think giving our all is highly overrated because then there's nothing left for us. I mean, it's just— Yeah. And I remember when I was working full-time, when I started this whole journey, really cutting back in ways that I thought would derail my work, and it never did, and nobody ever noticed. Yeah. So I was working a lot less, and in my job, it didn't affect anything. And even now where I work for myself, I could work all the time, that's for sure. There's plenty of work, and I love it, but I also know that my work is so much better when I'm rested and have taken a break. Yeah. But I think to be able to look at a situation and say, this is temporary, and for your client, for instance, if they knew how long this 3-job thing had to continue before they got to a place with their debt before they could cut something out, I think is really important to know so you don't think this is a forever gig. And then also, like, maybe it just has to be a slower process. So, well, if, if you were paying down debt, I think it took us probably 3 years to get out of debt. But if it needed to take 6 years because I couldn't work as much, then that's what it would have taken. So we have to, again, remove that guilt. Sometimes that guilt and shame is what keeps us really determined and punishing, literally punishing ourselves to make something happen in a way where it doesn't have to be. So punishing. And to get to the point where you're literally making yourself sick to do it, I mean, that's dangerous.

Yeah. And we're like assigning morality to the debt. Debt is bad.

Of course.

And we're assigning morality to whether or not we're giving it our all. I love that you said giving our all is highly overrated. You have a lot of really good tweetable. Oh,

too bad I don't tweet anymore.

Yeah. I love that. Yeah, it reminds me when I was in grad school, I actually, I stopped trying so hard for my grades. I, I realized like, I'm actually— why am I striving for these grades so much? And then I ended up getting way better grades than I did in undergrad because I was taking care of myself and I had more mental clarity and I was able to perform better.

Yeah, it's so interesting. It's so interesting. I think for sure though, like Figuring out when, when you're making this big change, how to do it gently makes all the difference. And removing that guilt and shame and blame gives you permission to do it your way, do it the way that serves you the best. And I think, I know for me, this wasn't the first time I had tried to pay down my debt. So I did have that, that feeling of like, oh, You're— this is never going to work. You've tried it before. Like, what are you doing? And really shamey-blamey. But this time around, I decided it was just going to take as much time as it was going to take and had a clear picture of what that looked like. Like, how much debt did I really have? And I was afraid to look at that before because I knew it was going to be scary. But— Yeah. The interesting thing is once I actually knew the number, the fact took away the fear of it. It was like, okay, now I'm addressing this, and I don't have to punish my way all the way through. And I know there— we're getting stuck on one particular topic here, but there are a lot of financial advisors out there, like, publicly who take the shamey-blamey route, like, you should just eat rice and beans or whatever until you're finished. And I don't agree with that. It doesn't work. You can't sustain that kind of change for a long period of time.

So if listeners walk away from this episode and they're empowered to make maybe one or two changes and without knowing them, and I know it's a little difficult if you don't know that person's circumstances, but do you have a couple of words of wisdom that people, when they, they're like, okay, I'm gonna do this?

Yeah, I would say rest first. So we're always, when we feel motivated to make a change, we want to jump in. I hear from clients that they want to hit the ground running, and these are all just ways of saying like, push through, buckle down, go big or go home. But instead—

Work hard, play hard.

Yeah. If you would take a minute, maybe a couple days, maybe whatever it takes, and rest, and whether that means laying down and going to sleep or curling up with a book or Just resting your body and your brain, you'll have more clarity on next steps for yourself and what direction you wanna go in. I never think that's a bad idea to start with rest, even if you're very motivated to make a change. Mm-hmm. And then the next thing is to give yourself what you need throughout the day, like we talked about before. Like, ask yourself, what is the gentlest thing I could do for myself in this Yeah. And I ask that of myself certainly when I see myself start to scroll. Like, what am I looking for actually here? Nothing. Or if I feel nervous or stressed about something, where my normal go-to would be to add a bunch of things to a to-do list and get myself busy so I don't have to bother with the anxiety, instead I say, what is the What's the gentlest thing that we can do? Like, should I call my sister? I know she's gonna make me laugh. Do I need to watch an episode of Gilmore Girls? Like, what would feel really good right now? And then I give it to myself without the guilt and without delay.

Brilliant. I can get behind that. It's great. Last night I was talking with my husband, and he'd listened to a podcast about how if you want to really be creative and you want to be in your flow and you want to contribute something that feels like really uniquely bright and brilliant and yours, is that this person was advising that you have 4 hours of uninterrupted time a week. And My partner Paul, he's like, I don't think that I could possibly carve out— Hadley's laughing because this man is like a 2-pedal-to-the-metal kind of person.

Yeah.

And then some. And he's like, I don't think I could possibly ever carve out 4 hours. And so what I'm gonna— what I'm gonna take home from this conversation, what I'm gonna go— I'm gonna make him listen to it and read your book, obviously, but I'm gonna talk to him about What is the gentlest thing that I can do in this moment? Instead of it being, you now have to clear up 4 hours of uninterrupted time, is doing these periodic check-ins and asking himself that question. And then he might get a little bit more comfortable with what it's like to not be in autonomic arousal, and it might be kind of a gentle shift into that 4 hours if that's his goal.

Yeah, that would be interesting to see. And it would also be interesting to know if he took that 4 hours, what he felt like afterwards and how that impacted his workflow. Because I know for me, and I mean, I'm sure you know after just writing a book, if you try to push through that writing and like grind it out, it's not gonna be great and it's not going to feel good. But on the days that you're writing, when it is flowing, it, it's just a dream. Like, it is easy. Um, and so I typically wait for that, and when it's really hard, I don't do it.

Hadlee, you talk about easeful living.

Yes. Yeah, easeful living. And I love that you said, what's the gentlest thing I can do versus like even the question of like, what do I need right now? Because I think the what do I need right now, we can get in our head about like, what's the right thing? What's the perfect thing? But what's the gentlest thing I can do already brings in that, that like feeling of coziness where you're like, it doesn't have to be the perfect thing. It's just gentle. What's the gentlest thing?

Yeah, as soon as I hear that, the word gentle or gentlest, like I feel this relaxation through like whole area of my body, like neck, chest, just a breath. And so I think maybe just even saying the word in that sentence will help to relax a little bit.

I learned this approach called Havening. And she, the person who taught me Havening, she was talking about touching your body. And Hadlee, you also teach about this, is, is the importance of loving gentle touch for self-touch. And so she talks about different Havening is you could say like gentle, gentle, and then gently touch yourself. And so for those who are listening, is you can butterfly cross your arms, start on your shoulders, and then just drag, gently drag your hands down as though you're like dusting off your shoulders, like your sleeves down your arms. Or you can even start with your hands on your forehead. And then as you say, gentle is just gently draw them down as though you're, you're cleaning your face and saying the word gentle. And that's a way I wonder if we can get into the body like you're describing that relaxation in the throat and the chest is to then invite the body to enjoy that gentleness.

I love that. The other thing that really brings me into my body and gets that whole mind-body connection going is just putting one hand over the other on my heart and breathing there, like actually feeling my heartbeat and then making that physical connection. That in itself has helped me to trust myself so much more because It's like, I got you. I'm here for you. It really works for me. But I love this idea of Havening, and coming from a very dry climate, I like the idea of maybe having a little lotion as well.

Yes!

Yeah. So yeah, I think there's a lot of great things that we can do for ourselves in that way.

Yeah. Oh, wow. This has been amazing. Tell our listeners how they can find you. What's What are your projects coming up? The book? Would love to give all the resources.

Well, they can find the book Gentle anywhere books are sold, and I'll be in Salt Lake City, San Diego, and Portland on book tour if they want to attend and say hello. And they can find me online, bemorewithless.com, and on Instagram @bemorewithless. Uh, and say hi. I love to make social media actually social.

Yeah,

that's—

bring back the social and social media,

please.

Yeah, awesome. Amazing. Courtney, thank you so much for your time, for the gift of this book. Thank you for sharing your story. We're sincerely grateful for you. And everybody, please do go and find her online and Continue to be lovely, loving, and gentle with yourselves.

Thanks everyone. Talk to you soon.