#353 - Paula Faris | Dealing With Mom Guilt

I welcome to the Hannah Keeley podcast. I am so excited because if you have ever dealt with mom guilt. Hello. If you're a mom, you've dealt with mom guilt in some way. You need to make sure all distractions are put away. Haha. That's a joke. You can't because distractions part of your life. But I do want you to really lean in and listen to this episode because we're diving into mom guilt in a brand new way because I've got one of my friends on incredible, Paula Ferris. Let me tell you about her. Of course she's a mom, right? Mom of three Emmy award winning journalist, she's a former co anchor of Good Morning America weekend, former co host of the View, and if that's not enough, she's also the author of you don't have to Carry it, Ditch the mom guilt and find a better way Forward. Hello. Thank you, Paula. I'm so glad you're here today.

Oh my gosh, it's my honor. I'm so excited to talk to you about motherhood and grandmotherhood, I hear. I mean, hello. That's incredible. So congratulations.

I know, it is, it is incredible. But this, first of all, I want to hear some backstory. Like I'm super nosy and I want to hear like you wouldn't come out with such a strong platform and what you do now with your company, Carry Media, helping moms with, you know, your, your book about mom guilt, you would not just stumble into that. You had to experience something. So can you give us some of the backstory of what happened in your life to really kind of shake things up a bit?

Yep. So there's really two touch points, Hannah, in my life that kind of led me to where I am today. So about nine years ago, when I returned to work from maternity leave, it was my third child, so I'd already had, you know, two maternity leaves prior to. And I was working at Good Morning America at the time. My very first day back at work, one of my executives sent me an email after I appeared on Good Morning America. And the email said, not your best look again. This is my very first day back from maternity leave. And I remember getting this email. I remember getting this email and I was like, I was hurt at first because of course it's not my best look. I just came back from maternity leave, you know, I'm already feeling awful about myself. But then I got a little angry. Cause I was like, why are mothers, why are women, once we become mothers, held to these unrealistic unhealthy idealistic standards. I was like, why should. Why aren't we celebrated? We just perpetuated the human race, right? So that was like, the first time I really started getting fired up about it. And, you know, being a working mom, I know what it's like to be seen. To see my value plummet once I became a mother. You know, mothers are passed over on promotions. We're all of a sudden not viable leaders anymore because we just gave birth. Right. So, yeah, yeah, it was my own experience. And then really, the next massive touch point was the beginning of the pandemic. I lost my job at ABC News, and I had a choice in that moment. Do I continue in the TV news path, the network news path, which is what I've known for two and a half decades, or do I go for this thing that had been burning in my spirit for a long time? It was born, like, nine years ago, but I didn't really have the guts to go for it. And so I just. I'm a person of deep faith. And I was like, God, what do you want me to do? And decided to blow up my life and move to South Carolina from New York City with my family, my three kids, and decided to form Carry Media. I didn't know what it was going to look like at the time, Hannah, you know, so do we ever know.

What it's going to look like when God calls us to do something? Do we ever know what it's going to look like?

No. I mean, that's what faith is like. Martin Luther King Jr. Said, Faith is taking the first step when you don't see the rest of the staircase. I couldn't even see the step I was on, but I knew that I was being called to this space. And look, I'm not an entrepreneur, I'm not a founder, I am not a businesswoman. Okay? But I felt this burning desire. And so I'm like, God, I'm going to go for this thing. I. I don't even know what I'm gonna call it, but I was just praying in my living room one morning in my home in South Carolina, where we had just moved. And I was like, what should we call it? And I just. This word carry came to me, like, carry the burdens of women, carry the burdens of mothers. And so we called it Carrie Media. And that was about a year and a half, two years ago. And then, yeah, so formed Carrie Media. We are all about advocating for working moms through content, resources and storytelling. We wanna change the game for working moms. And then this book is just like my love letter to mothers. And it's a hug and a sword for moms to let them know there's a better way forward. I want them to feel seen and heard and valued and validated.

I think that's the biggest thing I found in coaching moms is this need for significance is one of the most under met needs. It drives us forward. And the idea. How preposterous is it that moms are not recognized? Absolutely it is. It's ridiculous, but I think it's very. It's very crafted too. I think the enemy has a reason, and I think it's because moms are so powerful. Yeah, like moms are literally shaping the next version of this world.

Absolutely.

If you think about it like we're in charge of what the future looks like. And I think that is the biggest mistake a lot of moms make is not really realizing the power that they have over future generations. Like they are. They're given power and authority. But. Well, you tell. You tell me about that. It does feel very. A mom does feel challenged with their significance. They do feel powerless. Tell me about that.

Well, I think moms are, you know, in a constant state of struggle when it comes to our. Our identity. Because here in America, motherhood's just not really valued. And that's not anecdotal. That is, like, when I wrote this book, I interviewed historians and sociologists and experts and thought leaders and theologians, and I'm like, why? Why is it so hard to be a mother in this country? Harder than anywhere else in the globe. And like other countries are dealing with famine and poverty, you know, but why is it so hard to be a mom here? And the reason is, is we just do not value motherhood. We say we are a country that values families, but when you really look at it, I mean, it's your k problem here in this country, we don't value families and mothers from an attitudinal perspective. We don't value them from a policy perspective. And there's this unrealistic expectation. I mean, if you think about it, mothers don't. We don't really have a realistic measuring stick of what it means to be a mother. Here in America. We are compared to June Cleaver, which was honestly a mirage, I learned, you know, the 1950s housewife. We are compared to the Pinterest moms. And it's just the reality is once you become a mother, and this is just when I learned this in writing the book, and the book is Very, like, story driven, but it's also history and research. Okay.

Yeah.

And when moms tell me they feel seen and heard and valued and validated, I'm like, that's my goal. Right. But my mind was blown when I realized that motherhood is actually penalized and scrutinized and punished here in America because it is true that once you become a mother, you are paid less, you are valued less, and you are scrutinized more. And what do I mean by that? You're paid less. You're paid 70 cents on the dollar. And those numbers are even less for brown and black mothers. Okay.

Wow.

Compared to fathers, you're passed over on promotions. It's called the mom penalty, the mom tax. We just, we're not deemed viable leaders anymore, which is ridiculous because like you said, we're a shareholder shaping the next generation. We can negotiate and we are efficient like a boss, but all of a sudden, we can't run a meeting on budget cuts. Like, we're not seen as viable leaders anymore. And then we're scrutinized more once we become a mother. We're just judged more harshly, often from within our own circles. Right?

That's so true.

It's very much an American thing. And I'm like, no wonder we're dealing with guilt. No wonder we're dealing with burnout at record levels. No wonder we're having an identity crisis. We don't value motherhood here, so we're always trying to find our significance from something else.

Yeah. Yeah. That is so true. And when you say that a lot of it comes from within, that is just heartbreaking to me, Paula, when you think about our worst battles are within the motherhood community. And I do think that that stems from this overall feeling of insignificance where we know it's easier to tear down someone than to build yourself up, you know? And so you see these moms just like knocking each other down, and it's like. It's almost like we don't have to have the battle of the world against us because we're. We're defeating ourselves.

Absolutely. I have a whole chapter, so I have a whole chapter dedicated to the Mommy wars, as I call them. And look, I was raised by a stay at home mom. And that's part of the tension I've always felt as a working mom is like, doesn't a good godly woman stay home and quote, unquote, raise her kids? You know? But I always felt like God had this other call on my heart too. But I have A whole chapter dedicated to this. And I think at the crux of the mommy wars is just a lack of understanding and respect of another person's choice. Like, I realized I had a lot of blind spots about motherhood. It's. It's a privilege to even have the option to stay home with your children. That's a privilege. Globally, mothers don't have. They have. They have to work. And you talk about mom guilt. It's an American thing. Mothers globally don't really struggle with it to the extent that mothers here do, because not only do they have to work, but they take a great amount of pride in working outside of the home because they have to. But there's a lot of support systems. There's support from family, from community, from society, from the policymakers. There's a. There's a generational attitude and a societal attitude of, I am my brother's keeper. I am in charge of raising the next generation of children, even if they're not mine, because they are the future of our country. And so it's. So, yeah, we have to understand, like, if we're trying to figure out why we're fair game in corporate America and society, we have to, first of all, ask ourselves, why are we fair game in our own circles as women and as. So.

But why is that, like, when you're talking to me about how it's different here in the United States than those other. Why? What happened? What's going on? Like, I know that. That's like. Yeah, you tell me, Hannah. I don't. Like, I know that you know more about this because of the extensive. The extension you went to, like, all the work you went to. To understand what's going on. So, I mean, enlighten me a little bit, because I get it, like, traveling around the world, I. That too, yeah.

I think, you know, one of the most fascinating chapters for me to write was chapter three, and I totally nerded out a little bit as a reporter and journalist, and it's about the history of American families. So, you know, when we think traditional family, we think of the 1950s. Right. That's what I've always had nostalgia for. Let's get back to that traditional family where the dad worked, the mom stayed home, everybody was happy. Right. Well, when I peeled back those layers, I'm like, oh, wow. What was good for part of the people, part of the time in the 1950s was predicated on awful things. The reason why you could have one salary and why it was a good salary is because black people were pushed out of the workplace. Women were pushed out of the workplace. And if women could work, they were offered less. Were men more moral that time? You know, at that time, no. They came home with lipstick on their collars. But what were the women going to do? They couldn't get a job. You know, poverty. A third of the country was in poverty. We treated immigrants horribly. We had a teenage pregnancy boom, which. And all this stuff I had no idea about. So that's the danger of nostalgia I realized is we romanticize and we pine for the feeling but not the reality. So when I was writing, when I was writing chapter three, I was like, oh my gosh, like the 1950s. And this is really. We started pushing men out of the home. We did a disservice to men. We pushed them out of the home and said, no, this is our place. And we. The bonds of obligation were broken because they're only good for their paycheck. And that's almost. It's almost evil what we did to men. And then for women, we pushed them out of the workforce. And if they had any ideals of wanting to work outside of the home, they were deemed a menace. But the most traditional family throughout American history, I learned, is the family that worked side by side. It's not the 1950s family. It's the family where the mother and the father, the male and female, co labored and co produced together. Whether that was on the farm. Farm or in the field or in the home. And they raised the children together. There wasn't this bifurcation of that's your job and this is my job. It was like they worked together, they partnered, they truly partnered together. And I think if you want to look at a time where we kind of went wrong, it was after World War II. And I dive into it a lot about the different reaction here in America versus the reaction in Europe. Like in Europe after World War II, they had two main crises and that was they lost all their men in the war and they lost their labor force. So who did they turn to to fulfill the labor force and to repopulate? Women. But they needed the women in the labor force. But they also needed them to have babies and stay in the labor force after they had the babies. So they created these beautiful family friendly policies that where women didn't feel like they had to choose between the two, where families were supported. And here in America, we had a totally different reaction where the GIs came back, women were pushed out of the workplace, men were pushed out of the home. And I think the 1950s. That's where a lot. That's where things just really started breaking down. So that's. That was a blind spot that I had. I didn't realize until I really started interviewing sociologists and historians about what happened and why. So.

Oh, my gosh. I. You know what's funny, because I think this is one of the first podcasts I'm, like, being. I like hanging on every word you say.

Oh, thank you.

I am, like, being so educated right now. I had.

Thank you. I didn't either. I didn't either. I had a lot of blind spots about American families and, well, you know, women. We should just stay home. You know, I even thought that for a long time. But then Chapter five, where, you know, I found a lot of freedom in interviewing theologians. And, you know, I interviewed Lisa Terkers, the President of Proverbs 31 Ministries and her head of theology, because a lot of the tension I also had was a good godly wife. That's what we're told in the faith circles, has to stay home. And then he's like, there's really no evidence for that.

Where is that in the words. Where is that in the word of God?

Well, we know the Proverbs 31 woman has kind of been reduced to a housewife. Right. And the reality is that's actually not feasible for most families. Okay. So, like, most families have to have two incomes now to survive. But also that Proverbs 31 woman who we talk about being a housewife, she would, like. Her community was, like, totally dependent on her for stability. She was a master negotiator. She was a manager. She was a businesswoman. There's a verse in Proverbs.

She was an investor, too. Yes.

She bought a field with her earnings, and when her husband was away at war, which was often, she managed everything. So, like, she was the source of stability for her community. And so we've, like, there were countless examples. And that gave me so much freedom that I'm not outside of God's will if I have. If I. If I need to work or want to work outside of the home. Right, right. So I found a lot of freedom in Chapter five for me, that was. But it was. It was really hard to write, so.

Well, that was hard for me. I mean, if we're going to be really honest, when the roles change, like, I stayed home. I was a homeschooling mom. I was. Everyone should have this experience. Be home with your kids. Don't, you know, shove them off to the world, like, stay home with them. I Was the number one person who was like, I was standing behind that. That was my gig.

I was there, too. I was there too. Yeah.

But I felt like I needed that affirmation to give me security and to give me significance and confidence in what I had chosen to stay home. But then the roles changed. Like, I'm the one who is, if you want to say, bring in the money and my husband is taking on the home duties. And we had a switch and I really had a little bit of an identity crisis there.

Yep, totally. And that's not because it is normal.

Because all of a sudden it was like, is this my role and do I fit this?

And totally.

And the guilt comes in. I'm not. I'm not spending as much time with my children as maybe I believe I should. It was like the old me versus the new me. And we had to find a common ground.

Yeah.

It was like, no, I can, like, listen to God and he allows me to walk through chapters of my life where sometimes out and in and up and down and he's always present, but he's guiding me.

Yeah, that's so good. And I think a lot of women from faith circles struggle with that. And I was there too. You know, I was a hard charging career woman, the primary breadwinner. And then the pendulum kind of swung the other way. And then I was like, staying home with my kids and so wrapping so much of my identity in that. And I just realized, like, first of all, like, every woman's experience and every mother's experience is different. And we have to make choices based on our own experiences and we have to respect that. And like I thought, just stay home with your kids. The good ones are able to stay home and raise their kids as if a working mom can't raise her kids. And then I came to realize, oh my gosh, 70% of moms are going to be the primary breadwinner in their family's lives. So if we don't start paying mothers, and most mothers are working because they have to now, if we don't start paying mothers their worth, we're going to continue cycles of debt and poverty. And it's a privilege. It's a privilege to even have the opportunity to even have the option to stay home with your children. That is a privilege. Globally, moms do not have. So, like, even reconciling some of that and kind of deconstructing the way I was feeling and why I was feeling, was I feeling that this tension because of how I was raised and what my faith Circles told me, was I feeling that tension because I was out of God's will? You know, where was it? Was I feeling that tension because this is a societal message. And so deconstructing that was really big for me. But I found a ton of freedom in knowing that like Adam and Eve were made to subdue the earth together. You know, there are countless examples of women who, who, who got elevated to positions of power not at the expense of anyone else. But the Bible does a good, Christianity does a, sadly a good job of weaponizing scripture against women and also how Jesus handled that. And Jesus made a point to elevate the roles of women time after time after time at a cultural touch point when women were third rate citizens. So I have, I have found so much freedom and just knowing like God's going to call us to different things in different seasons. I feel super passionate right now about this call on my heart to advocate for working moms and just to advocate for motherhood in general. God might call me to something else in five, ten years. That's I hold. It is not my value. But like God calls us to different things in different seasons. It's not my identity, my identity. I know who I am and whose I am and why I'm doing what I'm doing. We just have to often give ourselves the permission to try new things. And for me, I'm going for this. I'm a founder now. I'm an entrepreneur. I don't know anything about it, but I'm taking the talents and gifts God gave me to be curious and ask questions and to advocate for people, which is what I did as a journalist. And I'm taking it into this space.

So.

But I had to give myself permission first to do this new thing and to step into it and step through my fear, which there's still a lot of. I still have a lot of.

I mean, I don't think we're ever exempt from that. Like, fear is almost like I use fear as like a measure to show me where I need to step into like what I need to face. Yeah, but I, I feel like for so long I was just ignorant of other people's perception of this. Like, I knew it was real and. But when you talk about like giving yourself permission, it's hard when you're raised in a certain theological understanding and you think that you make that your identity. And then when God calls you into something to like when he called me into being an entrepreneur starting a company, when he called me into pastoring and speaking and, and you just step into that, and you don't realize what lies on the other side of it. There's going to be just like, when you went back to work and got that horrible email, you don't realize, like, whoa, there is this perception out there. Because there have been several churches, like, well, we don't like for women to be in leadership, and we don't want women to speak. I'm like, oh, wait a minute. Like, tilt, tilt. I got to understand that there are certain mentalities out there that are still. No, you are a female mom. You have to fit here. But I love what you're saying. Like, give yourself permission to go where God's leading you, because he is going to lead you through the right doors and bless you on the other side of that. The guilt is real.

Yeah, the guilt. The guilt is very real. One thing that really gave me a lot of comfort in writing this book, and I will say, like, going on my book tour the last month, it was the first time I've traveled and not felt any mom guilt about it. So I will say, I know. And I was like, oh, my gosh. So. So, you know, first of all, for the moms that feel guilty, I will just say, you're not alone. Most moms feel a level of mom guilt in this country, 80 to 90%. Then I would also tell you it is an American thing. Mom guilt is very much an American thing, because we don't have a realistic measuring stick of what it means to be a mother in this country. We're still comparing ourselves to the June Cleavers of the world. We're still trying to carry it all and do it all. And if we ask for help here in this country, it's a sign of weakness. It's a sign of failure. Whereas the healthy. The healthy view of motherhood in other countries and having a global perspective really did help me get rid of a lot of the guilt. Knowing that most moms work because they have to, they take great amount of pride, but also they. They love the interdependence. They love being able to rely on people. They have family members living with them. They have community that helps out. Their mentality is, we're going to raise your children as part of this village. When they say it takes a village, it really does. And they put their money where their mouth is, but they're not afraid to ask for help. And here in America, we've kind of been conditioned. Don't ask for help. And if you do ask for help, if you do outsource if you do have somebody clean your house, you're probably.

Don't say anything about it.

Don't say anything about it. You could probably do it yourself. Well, yeah, you probably could. But that's probably why American mothers are more burned out and then mothers anywhere else. We're literally trying to do more than anyone else. A couple of other things that'll help with mom guilt. The children of working mothers tend to be, and I will say, especially sons, better partners and better fathers and more involved the daughters. You can look at all the statistics and it's a good thing. And we often think, oh, my gosh, am I harming my child for not being there? And I just have to flip the script. Like, look at all these wonderful people who are getting to. Who I have obviously chosen to do life with, who are so. Who are pouring into my kids as a community. Like, I have a young single woman, she's in her 30s. She's a dear friend of mine. She doesn't have kids. She loves to mentor my daughter. She loves to hang out with her. That hap. Like I've. We have surrounded ourselves with community that we do life with. We're reliant on one another. We ask for help. Our kids get poured into from other wonderful people, people that don't contradict our parenting because we have this beautiful community. And so I don't feel any guilt. And I've invited my kids into the conversation, too. I'm like, if this is going to work for us, it's got to work for all of us. And a friend of mine said, ask your kids, does this work? Is this an acceptable amount of travel? Okay, Mommy's going to do this. Is this an acceptable amount? And then you bring them into the conversation, like, look at what I. Look at what mommy gets to go do. God has put this on her heart. Look at the impact that she can have. And you bring them into the conversation instead of, work's the most awful thing, and it's taking me away from you.

I know.

And then they grow up hating work. Yeah. And then they're 18 and we wonder why they don't want to get a job because we've told them it's the worst thing ever and it's going to take them away from their families. But kids have mirror neurons. If we say that this is awesome and we invite them in, they're going to believe that. But if we say it's the worst thing ever, they're going to believe that, too. Because of the mirror neurons. It's repeated.

Repeated Behavior, Mike drop. That is so powerful. I remember one time. I love to bring my kids with me on my travels and conferences together. I remember one time we were at a conference and my son was sitting on his bed. I was seeing my. We were getting, you know, the lanyards and getting all of our stuff ready to go get registered. And out of the blue, he says, mom, you need to recognize everything you've accomplished. I'm like, dude, thank you. But Paula, he leans in and he puts. And he puts his hands on my hands. He says, no, stop for just a minute and just recognize everything you've accomplished. Of course, I'm tearing up thinking about.

It right now, crying right now. Like, I can't imagine.

But at that moment, if I had said, no, I shouldn't be working, I shouldn't be following the passion of my heart. I shouldn't be an entrepreneur. He would never get to see an example of someone who faced fear, who went into the unknown, who did things that she thought was impossible. And so what we're enabling our children to do is to see someone act on a dream, someone be obedient to God and walk through a door. That's scary.

Yeah, that's. And that's key. Obedience to God. Right? And we are. But we've been conditioned to think that we're out of his will if we have these other desires. And none of it is at the sake of our family. It's all for our family. And you beautifully invited them into the conversation. And look at your son. I mean, your son. Statistically, the sons of working moms are better partners and better fathers, and they're able to see their moms go for their dreams and accomplish it. And he's so proud of you. That makes. If I have conversation like that with my boys, I may not ever recover. I mean, I'll just be honest. I'll just be honest with you. And my kids know I love them. They are my top priority. Right. But God has also given each of us giftings and talents, and he wants us to also use those to shine our light and be part of a community and invite people into that community. So. But always rooting our identity and who we are, not what we're doing.

So we're human beings, not human doings.

That's right. That's right. It's so good.

And we're moms. Best title of all.

I'm telling you, it's amazing. And when people like, I just wish I could give mothers a rebrand. Another facetime.

I think you're doing that. Well, I doing that.

But I really, like, even for those that are like. Because there's the perception of moms that we're counting Cheerios and we're a risk and we're a liability and we're not committed. And I'm like, oh, my gosh. I did just. I just talked to some scientists who are like, motherhood scientifically increases your empathy and efficiency. Parenthood is a masterclass for leadership. It improves all of these capabilities. Whether the baby grew in your heart or your tummy, you're more efficient, empathetic, courageous. You're a better leader, a better visionary. Your emotional iq, your social cues. You take risks. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, that. That happened.

Why is it making the headlines?

Totally right? And so why am I being. And that's why I'm like, moms just need a rebrand, and parents need a rebrand because there's the perception and then there's the reality of what it's actually done to us. So I just want mom. And that's why I want moms to, yes, I want this rebrand. But it's. It's in those moments where, like, we can back it up with the research. This isn't just a feeling. This is a fact. Right? We can back it up with the research to validate them and say, you should be valued, and we're going to make sure you're celebrated, because if you don't have kids, we know that we don't have a human race and a labor force, and we can't grow the economy. We need to start celebrating motherhood and what it has done to us and our capabilities and how it has increased our capabilities and also the fact that we are furthering the human race. We should be celebrated, not scrutinized and not penalized.

Oh, girl, you have just begun preaching. I love this, Paula. This has been amazing. Just like, I feel like people who are listening, watching have a new dose of freedom and permission in their lives. I do.

I hope so.

I do, too.

Thank you.

Where can people get more about you? Because. Because you got to give us more.

Yeah, for sure. Well, I encourage you to read the book in advance of Mother's Day. If you have a mom or you're a mom or, you know, somebody who wants to be a mom. And also, like, we can't move the needle for moms without allies. There's a chapter inviting men into the conversation and how we can do that and. And the. The toxic messages men have been receiving. And so to understand where they're coming from a little bit better and then what corporate America can do. So I like, if you have a mom in your life or, you know, you just want to support moms, buy the book. You don't have to carry it all. Ditch the mom guilt and find a better way forward. It's been one of the number one new releases in motherhood, and I'm so grateful for that. But keep up with me on Instagram. Paula Faris, I love to hear from you and also Carry Media, the work that, that we're doing to, you know, through Carrie to help carry the burdens of mothers. You can check out all the work we're doing with Carrie Media, and we have a free weekly newsletter. We do a lot of great resources for moms. It's a free weekly newsletter for moms called the Carry Aisle every Sunday. So love it. Yeah, so, but, but reach out to me. I love hearing from you.

So love it. Thank you so much, guys. Reach out to her. Get the book. You're going to be blessed like crazy.