371 | Dr. Eric L. Johnson | Christian Meditation: Is It A Solution?

All right. It seems like if you're a Christian, then you probably should be experiencing the same problems that everyone else is experiencing. We should have a different tool set. Right. A different way of dealing with things. But it looks to me like there's really no difference. Right. The same things that are stressing out people who aren't believers are stressing out people who are believers. So what do we do about this epidemic of stress? If you are a believer and you're feeling anxiety, depression, whatever that is, maybe we have access to tools that we're not even taking advantage of. I am so excited today because I have a special guest on, and this is Dr. Eric L. Johnson. He is the professor of Christian psychology at Houston Christian University. And I actually reached out to him because I, I wanted to get his insight. He's been published in so many periodicals, periodicals. He, I mean, you can, if you're watching this on YouTube, you can see his background is all books, like completely scholastic. Right. I love this. I love someone who loves books as much as I love books. So what we're going to do is I really want to get into his brain and pick some of these tools that he's so well known for. So thank you so much for being here with me today, Dr. Johnson.

Oh, thank you, Hannah. Great to be here.

Thank you so much. It is. So I wanted to talk with you, first of all, what was your pull, your pull toward Christian psychology? And how would that be different than just psychology?

Yeah, when I became a believer, I was already interested in psychology beforehand. But there was such a change in me, you know, when I, when I was converted, I knew that Jesus was, was helpful for my soul. And so I just kind of, you know, stayed on that journey. I got some degrees and then ended up becoming a teacher. I love psychology. I love the science of psychology. I studied that a lot. But I, you know, I think weighted down. All Christians know that Jesus makes a difference in our lives and that that ought to show up. And the way we do therapy, the way that we think about psychology. So Christian, the term Christian psychology is a little bit unusual, you know, in our current culture, but it really goes back to the Bible. It goes, you know, throughout the Christian. Throughout Christian history, Christians have known that Jesus heals the soul. So it's been a lot of fun to be involved in this in the 21st century and trying to, you know, raise awareness of just how psychological and therapeutic Christianity really is.

Oh, you're so right. I mean, even in our academy where we train up faith based coaches, it's all based in, in the Bible. All of it is. If you look at neuro linguistic programming, it starts in the Bible. If you look at positive psychology, it starts in the Bible. If you look at behavioral content, behavioral therapy, I mean, right there, it's, it's all in his word. And so I think we're just going back to where it originated. Really. If we're talking about Christian psychology, that's where it originated. I mean Romans 12:2 says we're not supposed to be conformed to the pattern of this world, but we're supposed to be transformed by the renewing of our mind. That whole transformation, the mind renewal is that process of now how do I begin to work in my thoughts? And that's what psychology is, is studying our thoughts, the mind, the way we're thinking. So it just makes sense.

Yeah, yeah, it's beautiful. You know, I, I think, you know, God created a very complex creature in us and there's a lot of, a lot of moving parts, you know, in our souls and a lot of it is mysterious, you know, so we need the light of the Bible to help kind of guide where we're going. And you know, secular psychology, for all the good of the research that's been developed, it's really leaves the person of Jesus out, of course, that we wouldn't expect non Christians to, to bring Jesus in, but that makes it really important for us to remember him and to bring him in to the healing of the soul.

And the soul is the mind, the will, the emotions. And so you're talking about basically like I consider when we become a believer, we have a brand new spirit, right? Because now we've been, you know, pulled out of this kingdom of darkness, been to the kingdom of light, just like the Bible tells us. But we don't, we think everything's supposed to work now, but we still have a mind that needs to be renewed. And so we have to know how to renew that mind. And so just becoming a Christian doesn't mean you necessarily have all those skills downloaded, but it does mean that now we have the presence of Jesus abiding in us so that we can do this renewal process. But how would you. So let's, There are people who are listening, watching right now who basically it's like my life isn't any different. Like I still have the same depression, anxiety, the same tendencies, bad habits, the anger that, whatever that is that you're like, why is my life not looking any different?

Yeah.

What, like, what are your thoughts around that?

Well, I'm really So glad you asked because I think sometimes we ex, we, we, we over promise, you know what Christianity is going to deliver. God didn't say he was going to take, get rid of all of our problems. He really, the Bible doesn't say that. On the contrary, the following Jesus involves, you know, following him to the cross and life is hard down here and we grow up in a fallen world and families are dysfunctional. When we grow up in a dysfunctional family to some degree or other, we're going to internalize some of that dysfunction. And you know, if there's, if there's a lot of sadness in our lives, we're gonna, we're gonna take that in. If, if there's, if we got angry parents, we're gonna feel anxiety and, and if that happens over a long period of time, that's going to be a wired into us. And so when we get into adulthood, whether we're Christian or not, that's going to start to show itself typically. So one of the, you know, most important messages I think in our day is to help people to, you know, kind of accept that it's, it's normal to, to suffer in this world. Christ suffered when he was here. Heaven is going to be perfect without suffering. But in the meantime, becoming a mature Christian means learning how to be patient and, and learn, learn how to tolerate some of the difficulties of this life in order to overcome them. That's how God gets, gets his glory. Not by, you know, magically taking it all away, but by equipping us over time to learn how to, to get, get the healing that we, that we need, that he wants to give us.

Yeah, yeah. I, I do think that we have access to a power that dunamis power, that potential power that's available in the Holy Spirit that we don't access enough. I, I do think like just like Jesus said, in this world you will have trouble, but take joy, for I've overcome the world. And that amplified version says I have drained it of all power to hurt you. So if we know that, okay, in this world I will have trouble, but I don't have to suff result of this trouble. I do have power that's available to me to now. You know, help me leverage, renew my mind. Think differently about this. Because if Romans 8:28 is true, all things work together for good to those who love God and are called according to his purpose. Maybe this is working for me and not against me. And if we could tap into that power available through the Holy Spirit, I think we could, I Think believers have access to live very different lives.

Yeah. And what you're talking there is about kind of reframing what's going on.

Yeah.

Or within us in, in order to interpret in, in the light of that there is a God, that he's on my side, that he's, he, he's working on my behalf and wants me to, to open up to that message and receive it in a way that, that touches us. You know, what you're saying reminds me of Paul in, in Colossians 3, where he says, let the peace of Christ rule in your heart.

Yes.

That's a, that's an invitation for us to open up and to, to receive that one, you know, at the same time, you know, I wish it were, you know, as easy as just receiving it, you know, kind of, you know, with my mind. I think some of the time and it depends on, know how much suffering we've had in our lives and just how much has been laid down there, but we might find some resistance to that. And so I, I, you know, I, I also, you know, encourage my counselees at the church that I counsel, you know, that, that, that this, this is a process of, of opening up, of receiving and the, the Word of God, you know, sends us in the right direction. But just knowing facts about the Bible and about God doesn't resolve everything. And some of those wounds and hurts, it doesn't make them go away like, kind of like automatically as much as we wish they would. So, you know, I like to encourage people to get alone with the Lord and to see their devotion time as an opening up of the Lord that over time will yield more and more results. And, and that the goal is also to, to get that Word of God to go as deep as it can into my heart where some of those wounds are. And that, that's, that's going to be longer than an educational process. It's going to be a healing process that might even involve me seeing a Christian therapist and, and learning what some of those techniques are for taking it deeper.

Well, I was going to ask you, like, what does that look like for someone to be able to take the Word of God in? Like Jesus said, let's, unless you like, eat my body, drink my blood. Like he's saying, unless I, you, I really like become part of you, you take all of me in, then you're never going to experience this kingdom of God, that freedom, that abundance. So what does it look like really for someone to be able to go deeper in the Word so that it changes maybe that programming that they've developed.

To their childhood, that's, I, you know, I really like you bringing up that passage from, from John 6 because that metaphor of eating and, you know, feeding and getting it into us, I think is, is really rich with implications of what we're talking about. It's not just tasting it and kind of intellectually understanding it, but swallowing it and letting it slow soak in to the deeper parts of us. So I, you know, I don't, I'm not sure exactly how it happened, but one of the most strategic things that Satan did was to give meditation a bad reputation and right to convince so many Christians that it comes from, like, from Eastern religions or, and it's just patently false. The Bible mentions meditation 40 times and I think God invites us to take that word of God and to savor it, to, to let it soak into us. And that's, that's going to take a little bit of time. You know, I think, I think maybe, you know, we, we need a devotion time of maybe 15 to 20 minutes. And so, you know, I try and take my counselees through a process of if they have the time and you know, not everybody does. And I, you know, I give mothers of young children a pass on this stuff because it's so busy and you can't really meditate when there's kids running around.

Oh man, I, I don'. Know, I don't know about that because I, I raised seven kids and.

Tell me about it.

Homeschool mom, like. But here's my, here's my idea on that, please. I, I could not be enough for my kids if I did not have that time. I remember waking up at 4:30 in the morning because I knew if I did not have that time with God, it set me up for failure. So I can either use my time stressed out and overwhelmed and yelling at my kids, or I could use my time abiding with Christ and saying, grafted into him and then I show it better, don't give him a pass. That's even, that's even like more reason, like because you're so busy because so many things are pulling from you.

Yeah.

I mean, and I can only say that because I had to do. I saw my life without it when I was so busy raising my kids and I saw my life with it. And so I will tell moms, like, whatever you do, you, you make sure you're plugged in to Jesus first.

Well, you know, I'm, you know, honestly, I support that 100 because I believe everything that you're just saying, but I'm not a mom and I, so I want, you know, I'm glad to hear you say it and you've got that credibility with your own family situation. And I love that because I, I do believe that we, we're going to get the healing we need only if we avail ourselves of the resources that we have. And then I think that does mean spending time with the Lord. So, you know, I think every parent's gonna have to figure that out themselves. And some, certainly some seasons are harder than others.

100.

Regardless, you know, I think it's spending some quality time with the Lord every day and opening up to him. I, I was in, you know, preparing for this. I, you know, I just remember that verse in, in Hebrews 4 that speaks about the word of God, you know, being, you know, I, I think what I want to do is not, not try and hack it up but to, you know, to just quote it, if you don't mind.

No, absolutely not. No, I would love that because I want, I want people to have real. Like what does this look like? Like, tell me what to do. Yeah. 100.

Well, this, this is such a, such a. So the Word of God is living and active and you know, it's very familiar passage, sharper than any two edged sword piercing to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And that means it's not merely an educational process. We need the truths of the Bible to understand them. That's basic, that's foundational. But then as we grow in the Lord and in the Word, I think it's opening up to the Bible in such a way that the Holy Spirit uses it to help us discern the thoughts and intentions of the heart. That we get to know ourselves in a way through the light of the Word, through the Holy Spirit, through Jesus speaking to us in that word. And then what's really interesting in the next verse, verse 13, it says that no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him, to whom we must give an account. And there's, there was a, an interesting switch there from talking about the Word of God and we're, we're assuming it's talking about the Bible. But, but then all of a sudden it's about God meeting us in His Word. And, and really that's where the action is to, that's why it takes more than just an educational process. We really pray, we, we seek to, to meet with him in our devotion time. And I think that's, that's, that's where things start to happen.

Yeah, that's beautiful. What? So I can hear some people thinking right now. It's like, I love that idea of meditating on his word, but, but I can't focus for that long. I can't sit for that long. Like, how do I, what is. Am I supposed to just like close my eyes and think about Jesus and, and then I'm thinking about the grocery list and then I'm thinking about. I got to take the, the homework assignment in. Am I like, what does that, how can people really take this and put into practice soaking in that and letting that word reveal where the spirit and the soul are divided so that we can rectify that? How, what does that look like for them?

Well, I, I think any change in our lives that's going to be substantial is going to take some practice, you know, Cook, you know, learning how to relate to people better. These are, you know, these, these are skills, we kind of take them for granted. But I think to get better in them is going practice. And I do think that most people hit a wall when they try and meditate and they get discouraged because my mind is wandering. I'm, I, I just can't do this. I've had so many people tell me I just can't do that. Well, you know, I've been diagnosed with add. I mean, I have a wine wandering mind, trust me. But wherever we're at in that wanderingness, we can always get a little bit better. And what ends up happening is it's really a brain training process. So I just want to, you know, kind it kind of normalize the fact, yeah, we all have trouble with this thing. But I think if, you know, I see it as a sort of a, maybe a three step process. So the first step I find is let's relax our bodies because, you know, part of the problem is we're wound up. Whatever, you know, we maybe we have a, you know, a little bit of a hyperactivity in our, in our nervous system. Well, let's just calm that down. And we can do that by focusing on our muscles and our body and just kind of, you know, relaxing those muscles in our legs, moving to our stomach, our chest, relaxing our arms. It's, it's kind of a process that maybe takes about five minutes. But, but learning how to do that, we can get better at that and we can actually feel our body slowing down and that helps our brain slow down. So I try and do that beginning maybe for five minutes, then I open up the Bible, spend some time not, not trying to run through the Bible, and I got to go through four chapters. I don't. I think that's wonderful to learn the Bible, but I think for meditation, we want to take just a passage, maybe one chapter, maybe even just, just a paragraph in a chapter and just, just slowly go through that. Maybe even read through it two times or read through it even three times in, in order to. Each time getting a little bit more out of it. So it's, it's more quality rather than quantity of Bible reading. And in doing that, if we're doing it slowly, we're, we're also slowing everything down. And then maybe spend the last 10 minutes just closing our eyes and, and perhaps going over that passage, thinking about it, turning it over, chewing on it, you know, is one of the metaphors that we, that we've talked about. And then when we drift away with our. Imagine, you know, with, with our, you know, wandering, just, just recognize that's normal. That's okay. But Lord, help me focus on, to get something out of this. And, and really what we're looking for is we're, we're doing all of this prayerfully. Lord, what do you want me to get out of this? And just, just be still and, and be open and, you know, practice that. I think to do that for 30 days, that seems like a long time, you know, but I, I think we'll start to, to feel the benefit, and that's where the action is it. Once we start to, to, to feel a benefit, hey, I'm actually getting something out of this. And we start turning that corner. We don't need anybody to encourage us to do it anymore. We'll start to, to, to do it because, because it's helping us. It's helping us better.

Oh, I love that. I love that. Okay, so that is just one way. And I, I recommend, you know, everyone who is watching or listening today, if you have dealt with stress, anxiety, if this is something that's kind of, you know, confusion, overwhelm, what would it hurt? What would it hurt to just practice, Just like you said, practice this for 30 days. They don't have to take a lot of time, but it's basically a way of checking in with Jesus and, and letting that word do the Word. The Word will always do the work, but we got to work the word. We got to get it in us and put it to work. So I really appreciate that. I think that's so helpful for people And I love what you're doing, the work that you're doing and how, you know psychology, you're bringing it back to where it originated from, from the Bible. So thank you so much for hanging out with me today.

Yeah, thank you, Hannah. It's been a pleasure.

Oh, this has been great. So where can people go to find out more about you or maybe find out more about meditation? Any, any place you could lead them?

Oh, my. I, I, you know, I have done a little bit of, of writing on that. I haven't posted it yet. I do participate in a website called Christian Psychology Institute. And because of our time together and this question, I'm going to make sure that some of my resources are posted that address Christian meditation.

So my beautiful. From now that, that is beautiful. So when we post this, we will put that in the show notes. So check out the show notes and, and go there and get some more information on Christian meditation because it's a beautiful tool you can put to work right now and you will be blessed like cr.