Well Lived with special guest Sally Clarkson

There's a quote by Ralph Waldo Emerson, and it. And he says this. The purpose of life is to be useful, to be honorable, to be compassionate, to have it make some difference that you have lived and live well. And I love that. I saw that in a book I'm going to be talking about today, a book written from a woman who has had a dramatic impact on my life that she doesn't even know. I'm going to share about that. And. And today we're going to have Sally Clarkson on the Hannah Keeley Show. So buckle up. It's going to be a good one. Sally, you just don't know what an honor it is for me to have you here to talk about. Your book is called well lived, your Reflections. Being in Oxford. Beautiful. Like, I. I started getting sucked into it. I was like, oh, my gosh, I need to. We need to have an interview, like. But I wanted to let you know, and also everyone who is watching and listening, the impact that you made on my life that you don't even know about. I came across a book, like, over. Over 20 years ago. Yeah. Had to be. Had to be called Educating the wholehearted.

Child over 20 years ago.

Yeah. Yeah, it was. It was Okay. I came across that book at a time when I was praying, God, what do I do? As my kids are getting older. They're, you know, they're not babies. They gotta go into school, and now I gotta educate them. Of course. We're always educating them. And I came across your book, and that was a. It was two things for me. It was a breath of fresh air from all the confusion and all the internal dialogue that I was being sucked into. And if I'm worthy enough to teach, if I could do this, if it's like, if denying them all these things, breath of fresh air. But also, it was my permission slip.

Oh.

And I am not sure, like, I'm gonna get choked up thinking about it. I'm not sure. Not come across your book. If I had not homeschooled my seven kids.

Oh, my goodness. I'm just so honored. You know, I want people to know about that book, actually, as well as the one I'm launching today, because we've sold literally tens of thousands of that. But it. It was our faith venture in saying children are human beings with capability, with capacity to think clearly and to have convictions and to live virtuously and. And hoping all the while that we were not misleading anyone.

Right. Right. I remember I was sitting in bed reading that book, and I just turned to my husband Woke him up, and I was like, I think I'm gonna homeschool the kids. I'm just gonna do.

Oh, my goodness.

Here. I'm just gonna do it this one year. Let's see how it goes. And we never looked back. Oh, it's homeschooled. From the time they came out of me to the time they left the home, which, you know, they're all out now, right? We have.

Oh, really? You look so young.

Oh, my gosh.

I started when you were three years old.

Yep. That's the first time I got pregnant. Yeah. No, they're all. They're all adults. I got four grandbabies, and. And just the. The legacy that I believe you were extraordinarily, you. You were just a. Implemented that for me. And so I appreciate you going ahead, sharing your journey and your insights to a very confused, very overwhelmed young mom who wanted to do the best she could with the children that God gave her. And so you were very instrumental in that. So thank you. I never thought I'd be able to thank you.

Wow. You made my day.

Oh, my gosh. Well, you made my whole upbringing of my kids, so.

Oh, thank you.

Thank you so much. Yeah. So if you are a mom who is wondering, do I homeschool? Do I not like, just. That is not an instruction manual to homeschool. It is basically a book that helps you think bigger. And that's what it did for me, so I am so grateful for that. But. And now when I got your book, well Lived, I'm like. I felt like this is my, like, soul sister. We've been doing life together this whole time and know about it. And here you are. Reflections on a life well lived. But tell me, what led to this book?

Well, actually, your introduction was great for this because I was. You know, you never know when you walk by faith. The doors that God is going to open. I mean, who gets to live in Oxford for almost five years when you're in your late 60s, early 70s? And I had this opportunity to. To go there and to be with several of my children. And as I was there, I thought, you know, by God's grace, I have had the opportunity to live an incredible leg. He has blessed, he has given grace. He has loved me unconditionally, but he also passed all of those things onto my children. And I had the opportunity to work a lot. I had the. You know, it's. It. It's a journey of walking with God hand in hand. And I thought. I think there are a lot of people today that are lost, feel a need for direction, feel like their lives that matter, feel like their lives are menial. It's that day and day out, difficult, you know, tasks. And I thought, I want to write a book that. That says your story. Where you are, whoever you are. Where you are is the place where God's influence can make a difference. Most of life is unseen. Most of our faithfulness nobody knows about. But. No but. But to make those choices, to live by faith, to live a godly life, to live to love people that are unlovable, to persevere one more day, to keep going. Um, I wanted to write a book that would encourage women to understand that they are significant. They're civilizers in God's plan. He had a destiny for them to fulfill with those circumstances, that story, those children or lack of children, that husband or lack of husband. And so I just wanted to encourage women to live a life from an eternal perspective that really would matter.

I love that. I love that. Because you're writing this at a point in your life where you can kind of look back and say, wait, this has been a really good life. It is a good life now. It's going to be a good life moving forward. But this has been a good life because of the choices that I made. And I think so many times people think that, well, I can't wait until xyz. Like, they live life in a. Can't wait till the kids are potty trained. I can't wait till they're back in school. I can't wait till they're out of the house. I can't wait. And. And the whole time we're just playing this waiting game and we don't realize, am I spending my whole life waiting? Right. And that's a tragic place to be in. And I think it's especially hard for moms not to fall into that because rigors of the daily, you know.

Yeah. And I think if you have a vision, you can do anything, you know, if you know the reason why. And I think that what I want women to know is that God created them with capacity to. To pursue many areas of their life with. But also the ability to decide with agency. And I think that as I look at women today, if they could understand the way that God wants to use them over a lifetime where they are. It's not about being rich or materialistic or having a title. The things that fulfill, fulfill me, as I'm sure do you right now, are by God's grace. I got to have the closest relationship with My kids, I absolutely adore them. I love who they are. They encourage me. They're my best friends. I got to see that it mattered. I lived long enough to see that they were listening. But it also just that God desired that I would have peace in my life and that there was a way forward to find that. That God desired that I would never be alone. That he is companioning us at every moment and even the places I was humbled and, and, and made mistakes. I feel like God increased my compassion for people so that I could actually say something that might encourage them. So that the book is about probably the upside down values that God has that ultimately lead to, to deeply soul satisfying life. I don't have to, I don't have to perform for him. Yeah. And that who I am, he. I'm his toddler and he's, he's patient with me. He lets me grow. And I feel like there are things I learned that I wrote in the book that I wanted women to have his stories to and scripture to encourage them that given a totally different perspective on what it means to live well. And I love that Walt Disney, Ralph Waldo and were some quotes. So that's why I used it.

I love it so much. And it is important. I, I just don't want anyone to get to, you know, where I am in my late 50s or late 60s and then. And realize wait, what, what did I do? Like where.

Right.

Where did I really spend my energy? What thoughts did I hold? Because if you think about it, the reason we want anything in life is because of the way we think it'll make us feel. And the truth of that is we can choose a feeling anytime, especially when we base our lives in God's word. And when you're talking about looking back at the choices you made, I think, I mean God tells us, behold, I put before you life and death. Choose life. Like he basically gave us the answers to the quiz. Right, Right.

And he's there every day.

Every day. So you and your descendants may live and like you say, live well. Like he must bless us. And it was funny because my husband and I, you know, we're, we're empty nesters now. And we were out on the, on the lake just canoeing and kayaking and I said, is it weird that my kids are my best friends?

Yeah, I think that God designed it that way. I mean they are our community. They're our people.

Right. That's my corner. And it's funny because we talk every day. We like, you know, it's just like that friendship that you have always been there the whole time and, and you just like do life together and now you're able to pour into them and into your grandchildren and see it all come around. And so that life of well lived, I think was the most important thing. Like, I always like to give moms very practical help.

Yes.

We're so bombarded and I think if you're going to be like Sally and have that life that is well lived, you have to think about, what if I don't focus on my life well lived. What if I just focus on today? If I can live today well, then I don't have to worry about my life. Like, I just have to make the choice for today. And sometimes it's, I just have to make the choice for the next hour.

Right, right. Or yeah. The moment when my loud little boy comes screaming into the room. I adore you. You are exactly the boy I would have chosen. You know, you're using your words, you're using, you're using your heart, you're choosing to love. And practicing wise things over a lifetime ends up satisfying you in ways you didn't even know.

Don't even know. You're right.

Yeah.

Tell me more about that. Like this, the surprise of like, wow, I didn't even know what I was doing back then would have such an implication.

Well, for instance, in marriage, I remember I am, you know, I'm just petty. I mean, I'm just a normal self centered person.

I didn't say it, she said it.

I mean, I didn't know I was, I, I mean, marriage was kind of my training grounds. And I remember thinking one day I was kind of, you know, a little bit, I need more help. And, and I'm doing a lot alone. Well, my husband was lying next to me in bed and it was early in the morning and you know, I was shooting daggers silently in my mind. And, and my goodness, he had a ruptured disc. He had so much work on his plate that he, he was just overwhelmed. And so I, I thought, okay, this is a moment I'm going to worship God, that I'm gonna, I'm gonna love my husband because I want to love God well and do what he said to do. So I willed my arm to reach over and pat him, you know, and scratch his back.

And the most counterintuitive thing that you could have done at that moment.

Well, and because that's what the Lord had put in my heart, you know, as I was thinking and praying about all this. And he said, oh, I'm so relieved. He said, I thought you would probably be disappointed in me. But he said, I've been so discouraged, and you've been so faithful. And then my little girl came into the room like a minute later, and she said, I heard you and Daddy saying nice things to each other. It made me feel so good. And it was all, you know, well lived is when you make choices, you do what is right, you grow stronger. And then you realize that you have these children here watching you, have friends who are watching you have. And. And it ended up being such a good lesson for me. I felt so affirmed by the Lord that, you know, just do what is right for my sake, and it will have fruit in the lives of the people that. That you're my. My witness to or my light to.

Yeah. And. And all he asks us to do is be obedient.

Right?

And then we have to know sacrifice. Like, as moms were like, look at everything I'm sorry for. She's like, I never called you to say sacrifice. I called you to be obedient.

Right. And we put a lot of expectations on ourselves. And that's why I wanted to write this book, too, that God doesn't put on us. There are so many things now. I think women worry about so many things. They're Martha's, you know, and they. They feel like they have to do everything that everybody else does. And as you know from reading our books, awaking wonder was the book I did when it was all over. And I feel like to love well, to. To just live, you know, to eat at the dinner table and talk every night. You know, it's not hard to raise children. They were made to be intelligent. They were made to ask questions, to know, to access knowledge. Ours is just to be faithful within our limitations. We moved 24 times, nine times internationally. We had hospitalizations, car wrecks, fire in our home. You know, we had floods. I mean, I feel like Paul, but I look back and. And God knew that I was going to have all of those things in my life. And he met me at every point. And not only that, my children ended up saying, when you were going through the hard times, it was the most important thing in our lives because we got to watch you be faithful. And now we're going through challenges, and we have all of those memories of watching you and Daddy choose to persevere. And I never knew that the hard times were having a positive impact on my children.

And I always think in. In those hard times because we've come through, you Know everyone. Jesus says, in this world, you will have trouble.

Right.

Take heart. I've overcome.

Take courage.

Yeah, we can take courage. We can take heart. We can take joy. Because he's already overcome the world. But in the middle of the hard times, you always think, I want to get out of this.

Right. But then, please, God, please, you know.

Yes. Like, please, like, I don't know how I can do one more day of this. But then on the other side of it, we would never trade who we become.

Right.

Going through that. And I asked people, like, tell me about the hardest times you went through. Would you trade?

Right.

Came as a result of that. Because we can come out of things bitter or better. And when we lean, that's great. Then there's no bitterness. It's like, God, you are just as present here in the valley as you are in the mountain. I want to know more of your character. And it draws us into intimacy with him. And out of that, we. We evolve. We become the different version of ourselves. And our children get to witness that. And I tell people all the time, if you are. If you're resistant to the valley, if you are resistant to the pain, you're not understanding what lesson is going to give your children.

Well, and it's kind of. That's exactly right. You're such a great communicator. It's. You know, I feel like God with us is like us with our children. His desire, like ours with our children, is that we grow strong, that we develop virtue, that we become wiser, that we become. That we become our best selves. But he has us on a pathway. And He. He causes all things to work together. He doesn't cause evil. He causes things to work together for our good. And he is gracious. And he. He doesn't confront us with every sin at once. It's just one, you know, one little lesson at a time.

But we don't confront all our kids here. Is everything you do wrong? Like, you know what? Let's just. Let's just try to pick this up in your room today. Let's just do that. And God is so gracious. And the. The reason is he desires to bless us. I think that's one characteristic of God that we have a tendency to overlook, is his desire to pour more of himself into us, to bless us, to demonstrate, right, that we are his children here in this world. And it doesn't always look like we think it's going to look.

No, but I feel like there is kind of untruths that are going around some. In some of the younger generation. And I adore them. They're who I spend most of my time with. But I feel like until you decide that work is good and that loving well matters and that. That straining is kind of like you. You can't build muscle. You can start out in January and say, I'm going to lose, you know, 35 pounds and I'm going to eat healthy this year, and I'm going to. And. And so you. You exercise one time or twice and then. But if you don't keep going and keep discipline yourself, little by little, you'll never grow healthier. And I've realized that. Go. That I could build spiritual muscle and. And intellectual muscle and cap capacity. But you have to. You have to have the vision and know, okay, I'm just going to trust that this matters. And then all of a sudden, you see your children begin to flourish and they. They go way beyond what you ever taught them. And isn't it. Yeah. And at 43 years with my husband, I'm kind of like, oh, my goodness. It was the partnership that we both strained towards. I write about in the book. I have an example. But I don't want to spoil it. So everybo there. It's a fun example, I think. But, you know, the partnership has so much more value to it at 43 years.

Yeah.

Than all those times when I was a little bit up and down. And I. I've learned so much about what really matters in life. And those things are satisfying and things.

You wouldn't have learned if you decided to stay fragile or petty.

Right. Right. Oh, yeah. It.

And pettiness. You would not have jewels that you have right now.

You're so right. And pettiness and cynicism is poison to yourself.

It is.

That's why Jesus said forgive 70 times 7. Because he wanted us to be whole inside.

Yeah. And he doesn't want us to drink from this toxic.

Yeah.

Cultural overload of, you know, everyone's a victim and. And we're fragile. And it's. You. You don't realize who you can become. If you stay in a state of where I be safe. Yes, that's success. Or you can stay safe. And safety requires no growth at all. It requires all your circumstances must align with you. It requires people must be who you want them to be. And you created your own prison. But I think about me and Blair.

We.

It's funny because we're the inverted, where we've been together 34 years. So.

Okay.

We've been married 34 but in those places where we choose, choose to do this, we choose to work hard, we, we choose to be obedient to God. We choose to go the extra. And I think those are those choices when you always have an out. Satan's always wanting to say, hey, you don't have to. Here's the out.

Yeah. Nobody else does it. And you get a. Give it a break today. The thing is, that's why you are doing what you're doing and I'm doing what I'm doing because we know that God's ways are wise and that we were created for destiny. But I just want women to know that who they are, they're exactly the mother there of those children. Where they are is a place to bring beauty to light in the darkness and love and to unlovely people and, and they'll look back and be so happy that they made those right choices. I feel like God is sitting there on the sidelines coaching us. The Holy Spirit reminds us, you know, the Bible is his vocabulary. And I, I feel like, do people, do we go through times of depression? Yes. All of us kind of have these testing times. And yet as I look back now, I think he kept taking me forward and he taught me things I. Treasures that I wanted to know but didn't know. And, and that we are, we have one life, just one little life to.

Live, one chance to go around on this planet. That's it.

To live it well and, and to, and to keep going and, and to give yourself grace. And so, yeah, that you, you could have written the book. But the one thing I do want to say really quickly because I forget to tell people this, it has hundreds of pictures in it of Oxford and of beauty and of flock. Because these three sweet women came over and just followed me around Oxford and took pictures and it was so much fun to do an adult picture book and stories.

It is breathtaking like these. And I've never been so now guess what? I've got to go.

You've got to go. Let's go at the same time and have coffee together.

Oh, no. That is happening. That's absolutely happening. But I love this idea of a life well lived. And I want to encourage moms today. Excuse me. Wow, I need to drink some water. Allergy season, maybe that's it. But I want to encourage moms today. Like we're talk with Sally and, and I'm talking about that life well lived and being able to look back and honestly, Sally will say it. I will say it. It. These choices happen in the moment. And it's usually the choice that is most counterintuitive to your natural reaction. Right. It's like that time that you reached over and just rubbed your husband's back when. When everything. And you wanted to shoot daggers at him.

I was feeling sorry for myself and. Yeah, much worse.

He.

He had a lot more difficulties.

But you were obedient. That's. That's the trick. He never puts. I heard someone say, well, God will never put anything in your life that you can't handle. My. Oh, no, no. He always will. He. Because he wants you to realize the power that you have with him dwelling inside you. Like, we can live that exceedingly, abundantly, beyond life according to the power at work in us, not our own devices. But when we have those days, if we all have those days, you've had those days. I've had those days. Everyone listening or watching has had those days. When I cannot do the next hour. And I always think there's a deeper place. Reach a little deeper. Grab hold. You got this because of who dwells in you. And when we make those, we don't have to think about, how am I going to live a good life? Because we're going to get, you know, we're going to get into our 50, 60 seconds, we're going to be like, oh, thank you past me for doing everything you chose to do.

Yeah. I want to say one more thing. If I don't get to finish this, I'll feel bad also. I just love what you're saying also. Be yourself. I don't have to do what everybody else does. I don't have the same children. I don't have the same capacity as everybody else does. I focused on what God put on my heart. I focused on discipleship and I focused on words. We are people of words. And I. I put away comparing myself to other people because it's just a dead hole. You have your. Your own DNA, your own fingerprints, your own personality. And that's the freedom that God wants us to have. Don't do what you think other people think is right. Do what you know that God says is right.

And especially in this time when everyone is comparing themselves to everyone else. And I. I want to give everyone permission, just like Sally said, to be who God created you to be. I want to create this picture for you. Okay, Sally. This is with seven kids pulling up to our library, right in our 15 passenger van. We're loaded with stickers. Like, the kids love putting stickers. Like, I couldn't even look outside the Windows because they were covered with stickers.

Funny, funny.

The kids piling out. I never told them they had to dress in these clothes. They got to choose what to wear. They got to. You know, I was really like, you know, I want to affirm them. We looked like one of those. My dad said, when you pull up and the kids come out, it looks like something at a circus where all the clowns are, like, rolling out of the car. Right? My. My son had this. This velvet purple fedora that he had to wear every day. And then here's. Here's my daughter who has to wear like the. The pink tutu with a tank top. And like, it was nothing that you would consider.

There's something amazing happening here.

There's something amazing. Like we're doing something here. We're creating something here, and I get to do it the way God made me to do it and giving myself. And you were very instrumental in giving me permission to raise my children. How God created me. And I'm.

So we should live next door.

Yeah, why don't we live next door?

Where do you live?

I'm in Richmond, Virginia.

Oh, I'll come see you.

Okay. Or I'll come see you. But we're definitely doing this. But I'm just so grateful. Everyone needs to. Needs to pick up this book. It's well lived. And just the pictures, I. I will tell you, it's going to be expensive because you're going to get this book and then you're going to go book a ticket to travel to Oxford. Because I'm like, I have got to go. But, Sally, is there any. I love to ask people who are on, like, if you could give a mom one word of advice today, what would that be?

I would say if you're going to spend your energy, spend it loving. Well, because love is. Is the power of influence. Love is the oxygen that we all need. Giving grace to yourself. Love yourself in the way that God wants you to. Accept his love and his mercy. And then love other people with words, with actions, with attitude and heart. Because that is at the core of leaving a legacy where you look back and say, these are my friends now. These are my people. These are my children. And if you choose nothing else a day but choose to love well at every point, that is a foundation that is worth building on.

So beautiful. So beautiful. Thank you for hanging out with us. And. And just by listening, I know or watching that moms are going to be a whole lot happier. So thank you.

Oh, it was such a privilege. I hope that our paths cross soon it.