Q&A with a Project Manager Recruiter (what to look for during PM interviews)

Okay, recording.

Hi everyone. Let's welcome Stacy today. She is a recruiter for IT companies, project managers, developers, and so forth. And Stacy, maybe you want to take a moment to introduce yourself.

Sure. Yes. So that's a pretty good description. I've been in the sort of software technology space since the beginning of my career. I went to Concordia in Montreal and then I moved out to BC where I started to work for EA Games. So I'm sure everyone's familiar with those guys.

Mm-hmm.

I sort of fell into the gaming world. It was by accident. I did play, you know, games growing up, but I was by no means a gamer, but sort of just fell into that world and was hiring QA testers en masse. we could say. Sorry, I stick in French every once in a while. And then I went on to work for Behaviour Interactive, which was one of the largest independent game studios in Montreal. And then I went to go work at a startup called Felix and Paul Studios, which is in the virtual reality space. So, I know what it's like to work in the big, you know, corporations. But I also know what it's like to build it up from the ground up. So, you know, 2 very different worlds, 2 very different working experiences. Both have their value, but it's really interesting to kind of see both sides of the coin, if you will. And then I decided after Felix and Paul to go out on my own and basically build my own business, my own startup, and I've been working as an HR consultant for the last 2 years. I just had my actually 2-year anniversary at the beginning of June. So it's been a very, you know, intense, incredible 2 years where I've learned a ton. Recruiting is a very large aspect of what I do, but it's not all of what I do. So yes, I'm a recruiter. But as I said, I'm also an HR consultant, so I help companies establish HR procedures, policies, ways of doing things. And that could be a small company from 5 people all the way to working with companies of 300 or more. So again, a big range of the type of companies and the size of companies. And again, mainly in the tech space, so where creative and technology kind of converge, I would say. Video games being always part of my sort of portfolio because that's where a large part of my network comes from, given my background, but that could also translate to VR companies, animation, VFX companies, and then as well, Just software technology companies in general. So I hope that gives a pretty good recap. Any questions about, I guess, my parcours, my path, or I'm thinking in French, but my cheminement, my— yeah, I think you guys know what I'm getting at.

No worries. So I guess diving into the questions here, the first question is, Like what— like there's a lot of— I think the ATS system is always like a black box, right? So can you walk us through— ATS stands for Application Tracking System for anyone who's listening. So can you walk us through how does the ATS system work and how do candidates usually progress through that?

So there's quite a variety of applicant tracking systems out there, I would say. And they all have their different functionalities, but essentially what an applicant tracking system is, is just a database which collects and stores resumes. So at a very core level, that's what it's doing, and it can serve to house the resumes for a role that's current, meaning that one that you're actually hiring for, but it also could serve as a database for future hires. So, it's important to know that once you kind of, I guess, submit your profile within the system, it can remain there. So, you know, it's something that we would use and look back when we have a job down the line. We— it's very possible that we would go back to people that had already applied because that means you have an interest in the organization itself, right? Because you spent the time to put the CV in there in the first place. So just remember that it's not just for today, it could also be for down the line. So we— what the question was, how does it work? Well, I guess they They pull it— usually it's tied to the website. So you would go to the company's website and it would kind of reroute you to the actual applicant tracking system. And it's going to ask you to fill out, you know, your kind of basic personal information, contact information. Some companies set up pre— like screening questions, I would say. So they modify the— what's already, you know, the typical questions, and they personalize it to the company or the role even. So you may have a page worth of questions to kind of weed through and work through before you just hit submit. So that's in an effort to kind of weed out the more serious candidates, right? So there's 2 thought camps, if you will. Some want to not turn off a candidate and make it as easy as possible, I guess, where all the candidate would have to do is even on their mobile device flip their CV in and just that's that. You look and if I'm good, you know, if my skills fit, then you call me type of thing. And others have the approach of, well, if you really want this job, you're going to sit down and you're going to put some thought into how you answer those prescreening questions. And also, you need to fit the criteria in order to get to the next, the next stage. So there's a big range on how, how people will set up their applicant tracking system. But again, at a core level, it's to collect the CVs and, and be able to kind of search through and weed through possible Perfect.

So when you're hiring for project managers, are there any red flags that you look for when you're like— I'm assuming whenever you get a PM role, you'll get like 100 to 1,000 resumes, right? So what are you looking for to move people to the next stage, first of all? And second, are there red flags that get people rejected right away?

So I think these are like big questions, right?

Yeah.

So red flags always for me personally are the organize— especially for PM role, is the organization of a CV. And is it chaotic or is it very clear and concise? And do I understand Because what you guys need to understand is that we glance CVs like this, like that we call it diagonal. Like we just—

Oh yeah?

We look, we look, time is money, right? So you guys know that better than anybody as PMs, right? So every minute counts. And when you have to weed through 100 CVs, you're gonna do that with a certain speed, I guess. So we're looking for those keywords. We're scanning for those keywords and we're— our first impression counts, right? So that level of organization and ability to display the information where I could easily digest it as the, I guess, end user would probably be one of the more important things. And a red flag would be the opposite, obviously, like the disorganization and not clarity, the lack of clarity. Then another obvious one would be spelling. Here we have like, it's even more layered because we have the French-English challenge. But at the end of the day, I think being able to write properly in English is a key, you know, a key, key, key competence that you need to have as a project manager because that's, you know, documentation is a huge part of your role. And so spelling for me is a big one, I would say. That's what's coming to my head off the— that's what's coming to me off the top of my head, I would say.

Yeah, right. So you said organization. Can you expand a bit more into that? Like, what is organization and what's disorganization on the resume?

I guess for me, I'd like— I'd like the things I want to understand about your employment history is I want to clearly know what your most recent position is, and I want that to be as obvious, more obvious than anything else.

Right.

Yes, what you've done in the past is important. I'm not taking away from that, but when I glance very quickly, I want to know what is this person doing today? Are they employed? Are they not employed? And where were they last employed? And where were they last employed and what was their title, essentially? What did they— what was the role that they were occupying? And then if I expand beyond that, for a project manager, I want to know the size of the company, the name of the company, the size of the team. Were they directly responsible for people? or just the project itself? So were they, are they people leads or are they strictly project leads? Because that's obviously a very different profile. Was it a technical environment or not a technical environment? Those are again, different brains, different types of project managers out there.

Yeah.

So for me, I think the original question was about organization and what's not organization. So I guess not being able to very easily identify titles of jobs that you occupied in the past, where those jobs actually were, what you worked on, you know, like—

Right.

What type of project, what type of softwares. That's another thing. that you are most familiar with, because we always want to know as project managers, you know, are you Jira? Are you, I don't know, Microsoft, whatever it is, right? So we want to know what you've worked on the most and what you'd be able to kind of hit the ground running if we hired you.

Tomorrow. Right, right. What if there's a gap on someone's resume, though, and they're not currently in a role? Or they're currently seeking employment?

Yep. So then I think it's just making sure that your most current role still sits on the, on the top of the page. And then in your objective, you know, statement or whatever, clearly you know, stating what your— what type of role you're going after, and obviously tailoring that to the role you're going after, because these general, you know, paragraphs that you feel like are just a cut and paste are not exciting for us. We want to know that you took the time to kind of look at what you're applying for and who you're applying to and adapted it accordingly. So that's important.

Yeah, that actually brings me nicely to my next question. Are there any tips and tricks to customize resumes for each role so that you, you know, like, what do you—

Yeah, the job description is your guide. It's your Bible, right? They're telling you in the job description what their ideal candidate looks like. Take that, look at your CV, and try and converge the two together without, you know, making up something that's not true, because that's just going to come back and bite you anyways, right? So as much as you can, and as much as is actually accurate, match the two together and carefully craft The wording so that for me it goes ding, ding, ding. This person might actually you know fit the bill because we're telling you what we're what what the ideal candidate is, and we're always asking for more than what's possible. That's another thing, right? So don't get afraid either of oh, I don't have the five years of da da da or the we're always gonna ask for the moon, but we're gonna be happy with the stars and the potential to reach the moon, right? So. Don't let that stand in your way either.

Right. So can you give us a, I guess, more concrete example of how do you, you know, how do you match the resume with the— with the resume, sorry, with the job description with the resume? Because I think that's something that a lot of people struggle with.

Again, it's utilizing those keywords, matching up You know, so like matching up the desired skills that they're after with making sure that you list out those skills on your resume. So it's really just— and you talked about the ATSs before and how they— some of them are automated, right? So they're actually scanning, using artificial intelligence or whatever to pull out those keywords. So give the machine what it wants, right? And then the second machine is us, right? And we're going to take a more critical view.

Right.

And that's when we're going to understand more about, okay, well, where has this person actually worked? And who did they report to? And who was reporting to them? And what, again, type of projects did they work on? And are those projects similar or in line with the project that I'm looking to hire them for, right? So that's the more— a machine can't do that, right?

No.

So that's why there's always going to be, you know, everyone's like, well, will they replace recruiters one day? Well, no, because there's a judgment that has to happen. And also there's a It comes down to a personality fit too, right? You can have all the skills in the world on paper, but if it's not a personality fit, frankly, for the environment that you're trying to go after, then that's just not going to work, right? So—

Right, right. So to further what you just said about the automated resume screeners, Are they basically just picking out keywords like Jira or PMP, that kind of thing? Or does it— is intelligence actually more sophisticated than that?

I mean, I think more and more they're getting like everything, it's getting stronger and better. But at the end of the day, yes, I think it's pulling out the sort of key keywords that you just mentioned and the The actual titles of jobs that, you know, you've held in the past. Yeah. So for sure, with time, they're going to get even better, right?

Yeah. Yeah. So it's so getting the keywords that the employer is looking for. You can a lot of times just read the job description and get those. Yeah. So if they say they want Jira, you have to make sure you mention Jira on your resume.

Exactly. And another thing I'll say is You know, sometimes we abbreviate things.

Mm-hmm.

So make sure if you're going to abbreviate it, put the full word or whatever next to it, because maybe it's not going to understand the abbreviation, or maybe it will. So at least put both and cover your bases, right? So don't assume that the machine is going to figure that out, right? So put the full word. the full word and the abbreviation because that way you just cover both sides. And I know that people are trying to get very creative with the resumes and do all kinds of funky things. But again, think about it. It is a machine that's reading it. So if you put like tables or you make like columns or you— then it might not be able to pull the—

Pull.

Exactly. So yes, sure. It's nice to make something creative, but at the end of the day, it's better to get the information across than trying to— yeah, I think you guys get where I'm going with that.

Yes.

And one thing I'll say is like the way you save your CV too. People have such crazy naming conventions for how they save. It's crazy. Like, you kind of wonder like what? But just use your name and that's it. And like, that's, that's all we want to do, right? Because then when we're searching in our emails or whatever, don't make things harder for us. Make— think about the end user. Make it easy. So if I type in, oh yes, I spoke to John about the position, and here I am searching for John's resume, but I can't find it because it's saved as like I don't even— can't even tell you, right? Then you're just, you're just making it more difficult. Difficult. Exactly. So just think about that. Think about the end user.

That's actually great advice. That's really— I never even thought about that. Okay, so how important is a cover letter? Because there's some debate about that.

Oh yes, the famous cover letter. Do I read it? Maybe yes, maybe no. Is it still part of the sort of quote unquote custom? Yes, I think it is. We haven't ruled it out yet. So I don't think you can sort of dismiss it. Does it need to be you know, 3 pages long. No. Go online and literally type in how to write a cover letter, and it's going to tell you exactly, you know, how to formulate a proper cover letter. Again, the advantage of the COVID letter is that it gives you the chance to tell the end user a little bit more about what makes you the best person for this role and this company at this moment in time and shows your motivation, right? So again, we're going to glance at it. Are we going to read it to the word, to the letter? Maybe not, but it still needs to be there and it still needs to be done well. Some people are more thorough about it than others in terms of, you know, how much time they spend on it. But I think they're going to spend more time looking at the CV, the experience, and the skills that you list out and, you know, how they match out to what we're after. But yes, the COVID letter is still— you still got it. You still got to put the effort in, still got to make it happen, and still have to tailor it to the company and to the role.

Right. So how long is a cover letter and what are some things that's mentioned in there from good cover letters that you have seen?

Yeah. So a cover letter is like 3 paragraphs maybe. Okay.

It's not very long.

It's not very long. It's an intro— it's a chance to introduce yourself, to say where you're applying to. Why and where you're applying, why you're— again, you think you're a good fit for that role, what your motivation is to actually applying for the position, and then just kind of tying it up by saying, I look forward to next steps and I'm available, and, you know, that sort of thing.

Right.

So it's, again, It's very easy to kind of Google the structure. There's no like secret to it. There's formulas out there that just, that do it. What the trick is, is making sure it's aligning with the role that you're going after. I think that's what's— that's the key, right? It's, and making sure to draw out The skills that are important. Again, use your Bible, use the job description. If they're telling you they want 5 years of experience as a PM working on technical projects, I have 5 years of experience working on technical projects. Oh, ding, ding, ding. Right. It's like—

Right, right, right, right.

It's the same concept. Yeah.

We have a question here. Is there a way to ensure that the information on the COVID letter is also on the resume if it's not being read? Feels like some recruiter recruit processes move too fast. Comment on ageism and how many experiences to list for the optimal attention.

I didn't quite get that.

Okay, so let me break it down one question at a time. How do you ensure that the info on the COVID letter and resume is actually being read? Because I feel like some recruiters are moving through the process too fast.

And the only comment I have to that is it is what it is, right? So you want to make it stand out as much as possible by doing exactly what we spoke about up until this point, right? Doing the— having the keywords, formulating it clean, precise, title, everything looking so that it actually does grab my attention and I do spend that extra 25 seconds looking at it, right? So yes, you can say that about some processes, some recruiters, some, you know, and that is a reality. So you have to do your best to combat that. At the same time, you're selling yourself, right? So make the right contacts, You know, somebody who uses somebody like me, I'm an intermediate between the employer and the employee, right? I make sure that that CV gets treated. I make sure that it at least gets looked at. Doesn't mean the person's going to get the job, but at least the eyeballs are going to get on it, right? So that's where you use your network. That's where you leverage. And, you know, you just applied to X company, you go on LinkedIn, you find out who is the end user who's going to be looking at that and let them know you're— you've just applied and you're really looking forward to them taking the time to look at what you sent through, right? So sure, you can, you can say that, but then do everything you can to help yourself, right?

Right, absolutely.

It's a numbers game. Yeah.

Yeah. To that, follow-up question. So let's say the job description has like, let's say, JIRA. on it, right? They're looking for someone who has 5 years of experience in Jira, as hypothetical. So are you looking for in the job description that people really expand on what they did inside of Jira? Like, I was an admin, or I created epics, or whatever inside of that, and really tell you what they did in Jira? Or are you just looking for the skills section to just say Jira in brackets? 10 years of experience or something. So like something like really bullet points or expand it in the job description.

I mean, if it's going to— I want to answer that in a way that is like a safe answer, right? Because you're always going to have a chance to elaborate once there's this, right? Where there's the discourse, where you actually get to the interview stage. and you get to enhance and develop on what was written on paper, right? And that's the whole point of an interview to begin with. So you don't want to put everything you've ever done in your CV. That said, if someone says, I program in Java, like, and I haven't— And you have no way of rating that. What does that mean, they program in Java? It means that they opened the book and they read introductory to Java, or they actually could create an algorithm or whatever it is in Java, right?

Yeah.

So you have to give me some kind of indication of your level of ability, but do you literally need to break down every functionality you ever used in Java and In, in— what were we talking about? In Jira. Sorry, Java, Jira. No, no, you don't. Right. So power user, like give yourself a statement of— yes, give me an understanding of what your interaction is with the tool and your level of competency. Break down every single thing you ever did? No. So somewhere in between to understand how comfortable you are. Yes. Does that answer the question? Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because when I tell— the reason I ask that is because when I tell people about just having keywords on their resume, what then ends up happening is they just literally like skills section, like dump of terms. You know what I mean?

Yeah. And it becomes quite meaningless at that point, right? And it feels like a dump of terms, right? So that's where you do wanna give it some more meaning. I agree that sometimes like the whole second page is just a list of—

Yeah.

It gets dismissed at that point. It loses its power at that point. So that's where in the COVID letter, in your intro, where you can give a line about what you do, how are you, exactly. So yeah, and how much you've utilized the tools that they are asking for in the job, right?

Right.

So there's a fine line between what we said at the beginning of keywords. Yes, you want it to pick up in terms of the ATS, but you want those words to have substance and meaning, right? And that's where the The craft of building a CV and building a cover letter for a particular position, for a particular role, it's time well spent.

And is there ageism? We got a couple of questions about that. So is age a factor for recruiters? If you see like a really long resume, you're like, you know, oh, this person Might be too old.

I'm not gonna lie, it plays in. It plays in depending on the environment you're going after, the culture of the organization, who you're gonna be leading, what type of products you're gonna be working on. People could say whatever they want. It plays in, whether it's an unconscious bias or not. I'm sure it does kind of kind of fit. You're looking for a profile, right? You're looking for somebody and you sort of have a kind of vague understanding based on the hiring managers of who you're going after.

Right.

So if they're not ticking those boxes right off the bat, then you might eliminate to kind of go after that profile that you sort of targeted in your mind. Some people are more kind of encouraging to hiring managers to expand their horizons and expand their minds of, you know, the value of somebody who has more experience or has done different things or has worked outside of what we, you know, what we're after, but It does play in, and I'd be like, you know, it wouldn't be right for me to say it doesn't. So yeah. Yeah.

And is there any tips on how people can combat that?

Tell your story, like, in the— like, put it out in front of— like, assume what they're going to assume and then feed it back to them. And, and, and, and say—

That's like, um, you're addressing it head on. You're addressing it.

Yeah, exactly. Like, and I, I like that boldness. I like that, like, dude, don't, like, don't, don't, don't judge me so quickly. I recognize that I'm this. I recognize that I'm this, but just give me that chance and I'll show you that I could be, I could be this, you know? So I, I have no problem with that, of, of Kind of owning, owning kind of your experience and where you fit, you know, within the context. So yeah, I guess take it, take it head on.

If you are like an applicant with like, let's say, 25 years of experience, right, your resume could be like 10,000 pages. So should you just list the past 10 years? And what is the optimal length for a resume?

It's funny, there's every— everyone has this idea of like there's this sort of magic formula. Am I going to read 15 pages? No, you know, do I want to understand your more recent experience? Yes. Do I want to understand your relevant experience? That's, that's the key word here, right? Do I need to know that you used to scoop ice cream when you're going after you know, a PM role? No, like, don't think that that shows me that it built character. Like, I really, I scooped ice cream too. I don't care, right? So I want to know about the relevant experience. So again, put yourself in my shoes. Like, what does she or he want to know? Because they have, their job is to find the right profile that fits the current role that they're trying to fill. So they're looking for the relevant stuff. So I can't tell you it's 2 pages, it's 3 pages. It's not 15 pages, that's for sure. But I think it's just a question of using your judgment. And once again, that judgment is going to play into how you're Right. So I think it's, you have to kind of decide what's relevant.

Perfect. Thank you. Um, and, um, any advice for someone who wants to become a consultant, uh, or contractor in PM?

Ah, um, specifically in PM, um, or contractor.

Contractor or in general?

Yeah, I mean, I went through that process, right? So I guess I am probably the right person to ask in that way. I think it's leveraging your network, like, to the optimal degree and sort of saying— and then it's the art of, like, the art of marketing yourself at that point. That's where You really do have to attend things like this and, and, and, and go on the internet and read about people's tips and tricks to understand how to put yourself out there, because you're then literally having to find a new job every 3, 6, 9 months, right? So you're—

Right.

You're— I'm constantly looking for jobs if you think about it, right? So It's, it, that becomes a skill in itself. So I think you kind of, kind of have to get your, your first contract under your belt by using your contacts, and then word of mouth is gonna play in, and then, and then it's a matter of crafting your CV to show success stories, right? So I delivered. I shipped, I completed, I raised funds. I did, you know, it's actually showing results at that point. And then you keep building on that. I hope that answers your question.

Yes. Yes. And back to an earlier discussion we had, when you said about the job description, is that written by the recruiter, you, or is that coming from the hiring manager?

It's a whole mess of things.

Really? How is that? Walk us through. How is that job description created?

It really depends on the company. I mean, it's a cut and paste from other job descriptions, modified, altered, input from marketing, input from this one, input from that one. It's— or at some companies, strictly the hiring manager, strictly the recruiter. So I can't. It's, it's, it's, it's going to depend on where, what, but often it's, it's input from, from several people with several different needs at like— for the person that's going to get hired, they have something that, that, that they want from that person, right? Especially for a PM who ends up sort of cross-functional, right? Like the PM is Sits somewhere in the middle, right? So if you have a technical team and if you have a creative team, let's say, and then you have admin and sort of finance, well, PM is the— feeds all of those things, right? So everybody wants a piece of that person's skill set.

Right, right, right, right. So you're not the one who's actually writing the job or like—

You can be, right? So we could be taking that information and then putting it together, right? Ultimately, it could just be the recruiter that's sitting down and kind of writing it. Yeah, exactly. But again, it depends.

Depends, right? The reason I ask that is because I was just wondering if you're just reading the job description like the rest of us and trying to interpret that as well. As, you know, matching the resume, as you were saying, right? So are you just reading that and trying to make the best match from what you are seeing, or if you actually, you know, wrote that and have a deep understanding of what they need from the job description?

Yeah. Again, it's going to depend how much that first recruiter's involvement is with You know, is the person that's first filtering your resume simply like, you know, a junior recruiter who didn't sit down with the hiring manager and doesn't have that deep understanding, or is it the head of HR who has spent the last 2 weeks in the room with, you know, the hiring manager, like, discussing and debating about what the true need is? It could be Anywhere in that range, you know, like, so.

Right. So there could be— it could be that like the person who's scanning a resume is just trying to make the match the best they can.

And they're doing that, and they're doing that with, you know, the information they have available to them, right? So it's, again, if it's a small company and there's only one per— like, or if there's a team of recruiters and it goes through a Like, okay, if it made it through this first, then it gets to the second, like, so it's, there's a huge range in that, right? So you don't know who the end user is, but that's why you always want to try and target the right person, right? Because the right person is what's gonna, who's gonna get you to that next stage, right? You want to, you want the eyeballs to be the right eyeballs, right?

Yeah.

The eyeballs that could, The decision-making eyeballs, I guess.

How important is having the PMP for project managers?

I mean, it certainly doesn't hurt, you know. Yeah, it's, it's, but I've heard, you know, other, other, well, you know, who don't like the PMP way of doing things, you know, so it's, it depends on the environment. To me, the more tools you have in your tool belt is a plus. There's a plus value in that. Is the manager who's been doing the same thing for 25 years and never got his PMP and, you know, is not going to do it and sort of judges, like, has perception about that, that are we ever going to change that person's mind? Maybe not. You know what I mean? So I think tool— Education. I mean, parents are both teachers, like, so it's— education is like, to me, it makes sense. Yeah.

Yeah. Now let's move on to the interview. So what are— so if you were to hire, you know, for PMs, what kind of questions would you ask them or screen them? Like, what's—

Yeah, actually, so I did— I didn't have a lot of time to prepare for this, but I did write down Some questions that kind of came to my mind, so I'm just gonna go, I'm gonna find them.

Perfect.

But you came prepared. I guess I'd want to know, I guess I'd want to know, like, I mean, the obvious questions of why here and why this position and what attracted you to the position. So there's all those typical questions, right, that you could just Google and say, What are the typical questions of an interview? And boom, they're there, right? But I'm somebody who wants to know, like, what do you actually like about being a project manager? Because that tells me what type of project manager you are. So that's a question I like to ask. Is it a question that you're going to get no matter what? No, I'm just telling you about me, right?

Sure. Yeah.

So what's your favorite thing about being a project manager? And ask yourself that too, because that will help sort of define what you want to do. And you're at a stage now where you're like, you're trying to figure that out, right? So I think it's a very important question to ask yourself and to be prepared for. And then what's your least favorite thing about being a project manager? And you have to be careful with that question because if you're going to say, well, it's note-taking or documentation or some key You know, attribute of what we look for in a project manager, well, you're shooting yourself in the foot. And I've seen this time and time again. And you're like, dude, you're applying for a project manager position and you just told me you don't like being a project manager. It's not gonna, it's not gonna serve you, right?

Yeah.

So think about why we're asking that question. And it's not a trick question. It's just really to understand you know, what you like and what you don't like. I might ask you what your favourite project's been and why, and that's sort of to understand what gets you excited, what gets you motivated, what gets you up every day and sort of out of bed. I would want to ask maybe a situational question about how you react under pressure. PM rule, constant pressure. So I, you know, I can ask a general question. I can ask to give a specific example. I would want to know how you prioritize. So maybe I'm going to give you an example, sort of an example of, okay, you have this, this, and this. What would you tackle first? Who would you talk to first? So we can kind of understand your, your thought process and how you handle competing priorities, how quickly you could think on your feet. I think that's a very key factor, and then how you would come up with, you know, presentations and how you would handle formal meetings, and I want to kind of understand how Your work process is, I guess. So I would ask questions around that and then interactions, like to try and dig into your leadership, your personality, communication style, that sort of thing.

Wow, that's very thorough. Just one follow-up question. When you said that, you know, what do you like least about working on projects? That's a really tough question for a lot of people. It's like asking someone, what's your biggest weakness? And they're like, you know, note-taking. And you're like, okay, you know what I mean? So what are some great ways that you've seen candidates address that question with, you know, still addressing that question?

Exactly. I think like skating away from the question and never answering it is actually worse. You know, it's perceived worse. So I think it's It's tackling the question head-on, but then always with an action plan of what you're doing to work on it, improve on it, what tactics you've already put in place, what tools you're using to counteract it. So whatever it is, you're already aware of it, and it's already something you're kind of thinking about and making progress on. you know, actionable changes on. So as long as I feel like it's genuine and there's an awareness and there's already thinking behind how you approach it and how it— making sure it doesn't impede your ability to do your job, Sure. then I'm okay with it, right? Like, we're all human at the end of the day. Nobody's perfect. There's no perfect Profile, right?

No, that would be a robot.

And even then, they're lacking this, right? The ability to have this level of exchange. So a robot can only do so much. Yeah. And I'm working with people that build robots. So yeah.

Yeah. So we have a longer question here. What is sustainability in business Leadership practice mean? What kind of proposals and environmental climate control plans mean for project development from initiation to closing? Does this mean transfer the management to corporation within, within a period of time that the ownership is changeable in retail environment?

And I lost you.

I'm not really sure what that question I'm not really sure what that question means. Again, if you can clarify, we will be happy to answer it. Moving on, what are kind of like the top 3 biggest skills you would say companies are looking for when they're kind of hiring for a mid to senior PM?

I think it's just— have they— it depends, right? Again, is it a technical Is it client-facing? Is it? So it's it's hard, but I guess I guess I guess strategic thinking, like the ability to think strategically, right? Communication skills, and then and then your actual management skills, right? So I I guess yeah communication management, and then your. Your ability to plan and think strategically, and then just the core skill set as well, right, of doing the function of a PM.

Right, right. Oh, this is a good question. In the last 3 interviews, I'm always asked for my pay expectation. This question immediately turns me off. I want to say give a range and your non-negotiable skill So I normally just figure a— give a figure and feel like the interviewer is not engaged in the process. So how would you address that when asked about your pay range?

I mean, I understand the first chunk of that question, but what do you mean you give a figure and feel like the interviewer is not engaged in the process? Is that because they don't like the number that you give or? Is like, I'm not sure I get the second part, but I guess the pay question is we have budgets, right? You guys know the word budget very well. It's gonna always be part of how you operate and how you tackle anything that you do in your role. So it's no different for when we bring on talent, right?

Mm-hmm.

an idea of what we are able to afford for a particular position. And the same is true when we hire a PM, right? So we already have a range in mind that might— may or may not be flexible depending on the circumstances.

Mm-hmm.

But you can do quite a bit of research ahead of the interview itself to understand what that number should resemble. And it doesn't have to be a precise number. It could be a range, right? So, but you also know where you left off and you might— and you might— It's such a tricky question because you might be in a position where you're kind of Some of you guys are— the PM track is sort of new, right? And you don't have the years of experience behind you. So you're willing to take— yes, you left the job where you were doing marketing and you were making $80K, but now you're coming in as a junior PM. So that, that pay gap and the way you answer that question is going to be completely different to, well, I'm a PM with 5 years of experience. experience, but now I have my PMP. So I'm looking to, you know, as I keep adding to my tool belt, I want to keep adding to my, to that, you know, to kind of go up in the salary scale. So how you frame and answer that question, I would have to, I would have to help each person kind of cultivate that answer depending on their individual circumstances. But at the end of the day, What I could say is, the same way that you get turned off, we get turned off too if we feel like money is the, is the be-all end-all, right? At the end of the day, we understand that you're looking for a certain salary to maintain your quality of life and, and to fit with your level of experience. But before the money piece, we want to know that you're actually motivated. to work here, to do this job, to work at this company, and it's not just a question of the dollars and cents. So the turn-off goes both ways, right? So just understand that that's— we're trying to kind of make sure you fit in the budget and at the same time understand your clear motivations, you know?

Right. So to follow up on that, where can people kind of do research about like range, like a fair range for projects?

Yeah, so I mean, there's Glassdoor, there's Indeed, there's— I forget the name— Glassdoor, Indeed, there's another one that's not coming to my head.

PayScale?

Well, there's PayScale as well. A lot of them are very American-driven. That's the The challenge that we have in Canada is that the data is not as— but that's where you could leverage your network too, right? Like, it's— you can kind of ask a PM that you're, you know, and connect with and build your network out. And there's tons of groups and people want to help people, believe it or not. Like, look, I'm taking an hour out of my day.

Right.

You know, I'm not getting paid for this. Like, I genuinely understand that this is difficult and challenging process for people, and if I just say one thing that you take away from this and you use it and it gets you a job, like, that's very gratifying, right? So at the end of the day, I guess it's— the internet's your friend, you know, like our parents didn't have this, right, where they could just sort of Google things and So leverage the internet, leverage and get, and then ask questions to people that are in the space.

So would you say like when you're asked like, what's your pay expectations? You can say like, I don't know, something like $60,000 to $70,000, but you know, I'm willing to negotiate within your budget to say something like that. Yeah.

I don't know if it's more like It's more a question of saying, but I'm open to discussion around that because my main motivation is—

Is to help you.

Is to— exactly, like, it's to come back to the fact that, but I'm open to discussion, of course, because I'm really motivated by the position and the career opportunity that it will afford me and I'm excited by the project, or I'm excited by the chance to work on X technology, or the chance to do this or that, right? So again, it's putting in my mind that yes, you know, you want to be paid for your worth, but at the same time, it's not the be-all end-all.

No.

So always just sort of balancing the money question with the I actually want to be here because I want to be here, right?

Right, absolutely. So after an interview takes place, what would you suggest for the type of follow-up?

Like, thank you. Yeah. So yes, I do think it doesn't hurt to kind of show your appreciation for the time spent because you have to remember it is time spent, right? Whether you get the job or not, everybody took that hour to have that conversation, and remember when I said that your CV gets held on in the ATS? Well, that memory of how things end gets held in our minds, right?

Mm-hmm.

So I have stories where I have Not hired somebody for a role and then a year and a half later remembered that person and recontacted them for another job because of the way they handled not getting the job.

Mm-hmm.

So don't forget that your reputation is everything, especially in a role like you guys are taking on, which is such a crucial human skill set that is required, right? Not just project orientated, but you're having to deal with so many kind of soft skills, I guess, right? So showing those soft skills off, whether it's positive or negative at the end of the day, is really key. So thank you to show appreciation for everybody's time, and I'm looking forward to the next steps. And if there's any other information I could provide, I'd be happy. to send your way and just kind of wrapping it up to understand where do we go from here. Definitely an important part of the process.

So I had to ask this one last question though. So with COVID which everyone is aware of on this planet—

On this planet, yeah.

So a lot of people have been forced to work from home, and a lot of PMs have now become remote PMs, right?

Yeah.

So there's people who, you know, are current— like, were working as PMs without remote experience, and now they have to find jobs in the remote experience. So are they going to be, you know, dinged for not having that remote experience? How do they address that in this new environment where Not a lot of people were used to this way of business yet.

That's a— that's an interesting question. This is all new territory for all of us. So all I can say is I think we're all navigating these waters together. But what I would say is that's where you highlight your sheer initiative skills, organization skills, ability to adapt skills, right? Like everything that you would assume I would want to know that you could do because you have to work at home. Tell me what I want to hear. Tell me that you're super organized and everything goes into your calendar and you're going to be in front of your computer at 9 AM when that Zoom call starts and you're not, you know, so— You, you, you get what the other person On the other end is going to want to make sure of. And will you— will it be held against you? No, I don't think so. But will we want to make sure that you're going to be able to hit the ground running? Yes.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. So just more to summarize, like highlighting that you can adapt to changes when they happen. And, you know, you have the organization skills required to still Manage the team from home. And a lot of those things are covered in our program as well, how to do that.

Yeah, I would think so. Yeah, exactly. And I mean, I follow a lot of like HR blogs and things like that and just type in remote work, like, and there's a million articles every day about, you know, what skills you need or what you can do to make it easier or better or more, or to adapt better or whatever. So, like, read and seek out that sort of information so that you could be ready for a question like that, that, you know, wouldn't necessarily have been part of the dialogue pre-COVID. But guess what? Here we are, you know. So yeah, yeah, I'm in my kitchen.

I'm I'm in my home office.

There you go. My home office is my kitchen.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It is, right?

Yeah, absolutely. It's the new way of life, basically.

Yeah, and I do think that remote PM is like, we are going to start working remotely and more and more. And yes, we'll get back to the office eventually, and I'm not saying Everybody's going to be remote, but that is going to be part of our new way of working. There's no question about it.

Yeah. Yeah. Even post-COVID, I think a lot of people would just—

Exactly. That's what I mean. Yeah.

Yeah. So used to working from home, it just— it'll be weird to have an office again.

Exactly. Oh, you're welcome. Thanks, guys.

So yeah, we're coming up on the hour and I want to respect your time as well. And I just want to say thank you, Stacy.

No problem. I hope it was helpful. And guys, feel free to connect with me as well. I think I provided you with all my sort of stuff and my pages and everything like that. And don't hesitate if you have a more sort of precise question that's, you know, individual to your case. I'll do my best to get back within a reasonable timeframe. So yeah, I'm pretty open if you want to reach out.

Yep. So I will send the recording as well. As your contact information out to everyone. I can definitely do that.

Okay, great. Thanks, guys. Have a nice day.

Thank you, Stacy.

Okay, be well, everybody. Stay safe.

Bye. Bye.