Growing a $2M Product Business While Working Full-Time with Caroline Gilman

I liked being a CPA, or I am, I mean, I am a CPA, but like, what do you do?

So it was an identity.

It was my identity. I was a corporate CPA. I worked for Deloitte. Like, I was like, oh wow, so cool. Like, you must be good with math. Like, I don't know. It was like, it was an identity.

Yeah.

It was impressive. But there was at a point where I couldn't do both at the level that I wanted. It's the corporate handcuffs. I mean, they are the golden handcuffs. I had incredible benefits. I had a 401. I have a 6-month maternity leave that I would love to use. People are like, you just left all those benefits. And it's hard, but It was time to take that leap.

Hey everybody, and welcome back to the Product Boss Podcast. I'm Jacqueline Snyder, your host, and here we talk about all things growing physical product-based businesses. What my goal is, is to get the information out there so that you can all grow. Now listen, there is this crazy stat. Stat that only 2% of women-owned businesses make it to $1 million, and that's a year. And here at The Product Boss, we are on a mission to change that. So speaking of million-dollar product-based business owners, I'm so excited because I have one of my one-on-one clients here. I've been so blessed and lucky to be her consultant, and we'll talk about it, but also business therapist, as it's been said. But I've got Caroline Gilman, and she is the owner, founder, and CEO of Atlantic Blue Canvas. So welcome to the show, my friend.

Thank you. Glad to be here.

Long time listener, first time, first time caller. Yes. Um, so you're here in LA with me because we're doing a VIP day.

Yes.

And we kind of knocked it out of the park this morning. So it's like, you want to do a podcast? You're like, let's do a podcast. Let's do it.

No, I feel like we had a productive morning. You said let's start early. We had the most energy in the morning, got a poke bowl and did some I don't know, drawing and restructuring of the company. And no, it's been a great day to be in person. We meet virtually, which is great, every week for the past 3 months. But being in person and seeing you in person has been such a good feeling.

It's been awesome. Yeah, we went to dinner last night, had some good drinks, a good time.

I love your weather. We went for a walk around her beautiful neighborhood.

Sunshine, even though you're in great weather too. But yeah, we're in, what is it, March and it's California or Southern California.

But no humidity.

No humidity, no bugs yet. So we're good. So really excited to have you on the show. I mean, you, like you said, you've listened for a long time. We were so lucky to— we met back in December.

Yeah.

Shout out, you know, to Nancy of Skin Diva. So she also like, she's also actually a one-on-one client of mine. So real quick, like, because I think this is a really cute story, she has a spa and salon, so she has this amazing—

in Delray Beach, Florida, my hometown.

Your hometown. So she's got an incredible spa, like a huge, amazing, successful spa, as well as this incredible skin cream line, which is like bio repair. Anyway, so you're at the spa chatting.

Yeah, for my monthly facial. I was home for Christmas because I'm based in Atlanta now, um, from, from Del Rey. But yeah, we just were catching up, and my family had a retail store in Del Rey, so her and my dad are like old comrades in the city. And she was like, yeah, I've been working with the Product Boss, um, doing executive coaching. And I'd had heard what executive coaching is, but I've never really fully understood it. But when she said Product Boss, I go, Jacqueline Snyder? She goes, yeah. I go, I listen to her podcast. It was just kind of this, like, when someone says something, it like makes complete sense. And she's like, yeah, I do one-on-one coaching. I'm like, tell me more. And so for my entire 55-minute facial, like, we literally just talked about like what it means, what you did. And I think she was about to head out for her VIP day.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And she, she connected us. And I think by that, I think it was like Christmas Eve.

Like, yeah, we were really talking. It was like holidays, like, let's jump on a call.

Yeah, no, and it was just all the dominoes fell into place. I had just— and we can get into this— but I've been a corporate CPA for the past 10 years, my entire career, and I had just put in my 3 weeks notice. I had decided I will gonna jump in full-time, be an entrepreneur, and run this thing full-time. It was like a big leap. So kind of connecting with you was just kind of all the chips were falling into place.

Yeah, it was just, it was nuts. And the fact that like you all have known each other for so long, at least she was coming here. So I don't do, I don't take on a lot of one-on-one clients. So it was really interesting that the two of you happened. It was just kismet that it came together. And so let's get into your business, which I'm just gonna show, you can show on your camera. So what do you make and sell? What are these?

So we sell needlepoint canvas. So it is painted needlepoint canvas, similar to cross stitch, it's an embroidery, but what's different, if you're familiar with cross stitch, is it's hand painted on the canvas and you stitch over it. So it's almost like a color by numbers, and you pick the, I've already started so I've done some of the blue. I brought Jacqueline one out for her to do an LA one. That's so Los Angeles. And you can turn it into, I mean it's a craft, right? So doing the hobby, the meditation of doing it, it's really, I mean our grandmas have been doing this, our moms have been doing this for years. And it's come back in a modern, fun way. And it's having, it's all over social media, it's all over TikTok, it's having this moment 'cause I think it's getting us off our phones in a mass fast fashion world, something, making something with your hands. And so we're here for it and it's been great. I've been stitching since I was in 6th grade. I made the belt for my now husband. And I've kind of been a crafter my whole life. And yeah, I kind of started this as a, I did start this as a side hustle and it's from a hobby and it's kind of taken off. Since then in a crazy way.

So, 'cause you have a multimillion-dollar company now.

Yes, selling needlepoint.

It's crazy, right?

Yeah.

And P.S., multimillion while still at a full-time job. Yes. So if anyone's ever like, I don't have enough time, there's like, you're proof.

Yeah, no, it's, I filled every minute I could doing it. They say it's your 9 to 5 and then your 5 to 9. And so I did it, I did it.

You really did. So let's like, let's cut all the way back to you're working in finance. Right, is that right, Laura? Accounting, accounting, yeah, I'm a CPA. Okay, so you're working in that, and what was even the first inkling or thought that you're gonna go figure out how to get canvases painted and start doing your own needlepoint?

Yeah, so it was COVID. My husband was deployed, he was in the Army overseas, and I was in upstate New York at a base, Fort Drum, and there's no craft store near us. There's, we call 'em local needlepoint stores. There's nothing near us that was like you could really go buy a canvas from. You can do it online, but it was COVID, and this was, there was resurgence of it. So everyone was trying to find the fibers and the canvases, and you just couldn't get them. And you couldn't go to Michaels or Joann's to buy it. It's kind of a niche thing. There's these artists that design it, they're all hand-painted, et cetera. So I'm crafty, I've done some crafts, and I was like, I'm gonna make my own. And so get out some paint, found some canvas on the internet, and just started painting them. And another military spouse, she sold some stuff on Etsy, different things, and she was like, you should sell these on Etsy. And I was like, I don't know, like I don't think anybody's gonna buy them. But I made a little Etsy shop and put some stuff on, and I made my mom buy one, and my sister, my sorority sister, and then strangers started buying them. Yeah. But I was hand painting all of them to order. So I'd put, you know, I'd paint one, take a picture of it, post it, but I had no inventory production. I was the inventory production. And yeah, it kind of just grew from there. About 6 months in, I built a Shopify. Like, I didn't hire anybody. I bootstrapped it. I just kind of figured it out, watched some videos on YouTube. Then about 9 months in, I was still painting myself, and about 9 months in I had to outsource. And I just, because I couldn't, I couldn't keep up with it. It just, and my time was better spent elsewhere. So COVID, it was kind of hard, but all of the painters are overseas. So I had to find a painting house and work on that. And it's a huge capital kind of investment because you have to order. Any product business knows, as many of your listeners, is it's a huge cash outlay to purchase the product that you haven't even been able to sell yet.

So, so thinking about that part, because you were probably getting your canvas just locally to paint on, or how are you— like, I want— I guess what I'm asking is that switch over from— a lot of people will sort of still source their stuff. They'll like go to the local fabric store and buy it, right? They're still kind of operating bootstrap, not fully professionalizing in the business. So it sounds to me like you started professionalizing pretty fast because the company took off.

Yeah, my parents had an art supply retail store actually, so I kind of, in a way, um, because I, I worked there since I was a kid. If anybody's from a family business, like, you know, it's, you are, you work in the family business. And so I kind of knew like there's a wholesale price for stuff, you can get like your sales tax waived if you hold it wholesale. So I actually used their sales tax ID to get, because I was buying canvas retail, like, you know, like a big roll of fabric. And I was like, Dad, if I can use your real sales tax ID, I would save $100 by not paying retail. So I started, that's how I started supplying it, yes. And then I would buy paint through them. And so that was kind of like my materials would help. But the biggest cost is not even the fabric, it's the time of painting. So I kind of knew that. And then, but getting the supplier and the overseas, that was complete foreign territory.

Totally. So when did you switch from sort of sourcing what you knew to saying, all right, this thing's a real business, or this is, that the professionalism of— because we source— you source your canvas from one country, you manufacture and paint in 3 or 4 other countries, and then finishing even comes back to you and your shop in Atlanta, and you guys do the finishing, right?

We don't do finishing.

We have this part, the binding.

Oh, the binding we do. Sorry, the finishing of turning into an ornament, that's like the end step. But yeah, no, this we do in Atlanta too.

Yeah.

Hmm, I'm trying to think. Well, I think it was like 9 months in and when we got the overseas painters, but still everything came back to me We were in upstate New York at the time. Um, I did all the packaging and fulfillment. Yeah. So we would, we would bring it to a finish. We would add the binding, started selling wholesale probably like a year in, which was a whole different kind of, it's a whole different customer base. Yeah. It's a whole different set of rules. You have to have the inventory. They're not gonna pay, they don't, like they'll do a pre-order, but they don't give you cash.

Yeah.

Usually for a pre-order. And then we went to, I think our biggest turning point was went to a wholesale market. So they do 2 a year in our industry and all of the wholesale customers will come to It's like an Embassy Suites kind of setup and we rent out the rooms and they'll buy from you. And that just quadrupled my wholesale business and my wholesale like outreach.

So yeah, I mean, so it sounds like in a year you were like, okay, this thing's legit. I got to get better sourcing, even better sourcing, outsourcing your art. So I think what's interesting about that is a lot of times, and listen, and we'll get into it later, kind of the next level of where you're at now, of continuing to take things off your plate as the CEO, founder, all the things. But that painting part, because it's still hand-painted, so we haven't— and that's one of the standouts is like your stuff is still hand-painted. Was there any mindset stuff that came up for you when you were like, can I— will they still buy it if it's not my own hands painting it?

Oh, for sure. Yeah, because like I design it, right? So I sketch it out digitally and then I send it to them to do it. But was it going to be this old, well, it's not handmade by the designer anymore. Or I even now use ghost designers, right? So I will kind of sketch out or conceptualize something and then they'll execute, like these ghost designers will execute it. And we talk about fashion and I know you're very familiar with the fashion industry, but there's a lot of like overlap in this industry to fashion and the fact that, you know, Vera Wang does not design every single dress, but it's her name on it. And there's a similar concept with artwork here. And I work with other designers as well and represent their brands. But no, it was like, was there voodoo behind like, I, Caroline, am not physically making you this handmade product? But the needlepoint industry has been around a while, and once I realized, oh, this is the industry norm, this is expected, it, I don't know, I got over it real fast.

You let yourself off the hook.

For sure, yeah. But I did think about it. And going overseas, that was kind of a mental hurdle. I was like, I want to make it in the USA. Like, you know, there's thoughts around that too. But I just knew in order to keep moving, I had to have someone else Yeah, help, of course.

I mean, we just mapped your whole org chart. There's a lot of spots there. But yeah, I think, you know, I— and, and that's— I would say, especially the way that you started it, you're not alone, and anyone listening is not alone, where it's like, but I painted this, I ideated it, like, and the concept of going overseas and thinking, but also, and I'm taking it overseas, but you're employing a lot of people. Like, just to cut to the woman who runs the paint house in one of the countries, she's doing so— they have like 50 painters.

60-something. Yeah. And we're growing. Yeah.

And you're growing and you're employing more people. And it's— and I think the thing, you know, that people need to understand is like, of course we would love to do it domestically. But here in California, p.s., we had 5% of the world's— the garments of the world were manufactured in L.A. Yeah, 5%, which is a large amount. And that's the industry I come from. But as our minimum wage went up, you can't get someone to cut and sew faster to make the dollar amount work, right? So fortunately and unfortunately, there's parts that have to get outsourced, but you're employing people, you're employing other artists, and you also have like a full US team as well. So okay, so we've outsourced materials, you've figured out how to get them painted somewhere else, you have designers as well and artists that are helping you create, because you have how many SKUs do you usually do?

I think we're over about 500. So we have 20 artists that we distribute for. So we use their artwork, we'll put it on canvas for them, and then we do all their fulfillment and distribution for them. But yeah, over I think 500 SKUs.

Yeah.

In just canvas.

Yeah, and that's what I want people to hear too, 'cause they'll hear me say like, go all, you know, don't have so many things, like your top 20%. But the thing is, is that you're still doing painted canvas. Like you're not coming out with, like you said, there's cross stitch and crochet and blah blah blah.

We sell painted canvas.

You sell painted canvas. And you have different variations of it. So that's how you get to 500, units or 500 SKUs, because you have bestsellers, you've probably got ones that are seasonal, that come in and out. Definitely.

Travel, holiday, yep.

Yeah. So, okay, so we've moved it overseas, now we're back. Okay, so now we're here in this year. So you were, and I don't know if you want to talk money, do you want?

You can do it, yeah.

Okay.

They're numbers.

I'm a numbers person. Great. I know you really are. So your business is at about $2 million and you're still working full-time.

Yep, so we finished last year. At $2 million. Yeah.

Yeah. Which is nuts.

And I'm still, I'm a senior manager at a Big Four corporation.

Yeah. Yep. So let's talk about that for a hot second.

With no employees. Like, I mean, I had part-time employees, but with no full-time employees. Yeah.

So you went from Etsy to, all right, I can't be the bottleneck in production anymore. Like you, you started outsourcing production and you would handle a lot of finishing. What was that?

And all the packing. I packed every order.

So what was that journey? I'm like, Breathing. Um, what was that journey between kind of like that first, the first or second hires, like the, the way that you thought, I can't keep doing it like this, because then we can get into all of the people you've hired over the last few years.

Yeah, I mean, I knew the first thing I needed was help with fulfillment.

Mm-hmm.

I mean, I couldn't— we had orders coming in every day, and so I just needed someone to help me with fulfillment. And so found someone locally. She was a stitcher. She had slid into my DMs, Sophie. She now runs my backend on Shopify. But she, yeah, she'd come over to my house because we did it in my spare bedroom, and we'd— she'd help me pack and sew and fulfill orders and customer service emails and things like that. So she was my first— I had to like Google how much to pay somebody. I was like, how much do I pay a part-time person to do this? And so that's— that was my first— that was my first employee, was— it was, it was fulfillment.

Yeah. And I say usually there's two, um, two things that people will need to hire for first. It's It's production and fulfillment. So you definitely did, like actually your first was production, which is getting it, a lot of it out of your hands. The second thing was, because production's one thing, but then all the orders are coming in, we need to get it out the door. So you did it, production, fulfillment, perfect. So then where did, like how did you then start to hire? 'Cause you've hired just a lot of contractors that worked at all different times and did all different things.

Yes, so fast forward, we're now in Atlanta, and I probably had 3 or 4 people come into my house and helping me pack orders. And we could only fit so many of us in my loft. We were in this tiny, tiny loft. But that was mainly it, was packing, fulfilling, unpacking orders, prepping them. Our wholesale line has grown tremendously. So I mean, those, those thousands of orders would come in, so they would take a bit longer to pack. But that was my Atlanta-based team. So that's my physical, because I mean, that's, we pack and ship, pack and ship. That's, that's the physical part of it. And then we started expanding our almost like remote team. So, um, I met someone from marketing, so she's taken over my Instagram. But again, everyone's just side hustling it. Like, we are— up until last year, like, everyone was side hustling it. Brought on just, just more designers. Um, trying to think of who like my next hire was, but it's mainly just been working. And I— and most of the people I meet is like through Instagram, or they've reached out to me, and we're just needle pointers. Like, we just have this common sense of community because we do this craft together. And so, I mean, we'll sit and stitch and just talk.

It's—

my husband always laughs because he's like, you guys don't look at each other, you're just like sitting and stitching and not— and just constantly talking. He's like, but you're not looking at each other.

Like my son on video games, like, yeah, no, I mean, talking to each other. Yeah.

Um, but it's so funny because like, we'll just be— yeah, we'll just be doing it and screaming at each other.

Um, you probably remember conversations based on what you were looking at, right? Like, yeah, it's kind of like a podcast if you're listening and you're walking somewhere and you remember where you were. It's a music Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, we were talking about like next hires, but cut to you're finally, I mean, we know you've got a great company. Your company's like blowing up and now you're at this precipice of leaving a full-time like corporate career.

Yeah. And to back up, like my goal was to never leave. Like I wasn't like, I wanna build this so I can quit my day job.

Yeah.

Like I loved my day job. Like I loved working in like my corporate role. I worked with professionals, I worked with really smart people. Like I really, that wasn't my goal was to quit.

Yeah.

Um, people ask me that. All the time, like, when are you going to quit your job? And I was like, I'm not. I had started thinking end of last year was I need to start, like, I will need to hire to replace me. And someone, probably you or someone said it like, you need to hire people better than you, right? You need to replace yourself every day. So I have a bookkeeper. Like, I am a CPA, but like, I have a bookkeeper. I have a CPA. I hired a marketing girl who's way better on Instagram and TikTok than I ever could be. And so I hired painters that were better than me. So I kind of had that in mind. And then I had, I had a number in mind, right? So I was like, if I could replace my salary that I'm making as a CPA, I was like, maybe I could do this. But I think the scare was like, what if this goes away? It's any entrepreneur, right? Like, what if this goes away? Like, I, my husband was going back to school. And so like, I was the income. And so there was just definitely a lot of self-doubt.

Of course.

A little bit. I was like, I think I could do it, but I just was like, I'm not ready to take that leap. And then it was, Yeah, it was the end of last year. We had just moved. I had just gotten commercial space, so I was out of my house, which was huge. And I just was like, I can't do this anymore. I had no work-life balance. And I know that's kind of like voodoo to say, but I just didn't. Like, I was just, I never stopped working. Um, I was tired, I was getting cranky, my health was just not where it needed to be. So the math started mathing, right? Because I was like, if I could start pulling out money, because I had mostly always reinvested it. I had never taken like a full owner draw up until that point, which is crazy.

Yeah. Crazy to think about. But you were working and so you were able to just like—

Yeah, so I just wanted to keep reinvesting it back in the company. I'm especially a product-based business. I mean, I was taking like loans. I took loans from QuickBooks. I took like small business loans from Shopify, which were really great. I don't know if any entrepreneurs out there, but like if you do a Shopify loan, you can pay it back via your sales. So you're not really taking on this huge, you know, scary debt loan. Um, so I did that to kind of just keep my cash there and let it sit in the business. But for 2 months I was like, okay, if I could pull this much out, I could quit my job. And yeah, I, I just kind of, I, I kind of got into my head. I was like, I'll quit after busy season, tax season next year. And no, I was like, end of December. And I was like, and I'm done. And I think I even shocked my sister. I shocked my dad. Cause I, I think everyone was, was like, you, you loved your job. Yeah. Like, I can't believe you just, and I did it.

Well, you've said to me like, People don't even know the company that you have.

Yeah, I don't— I had— until I quit, I had never posted about it on my personal Instagram.

Yeah, they have no idea like what your little side hustle is.

No.

They think you're still up in that like in the attic like shipping things. Yeah. So, you know, from a mindset perspective, I mean, because you've joked about it, but there is this version of like business is therapy. Like business is— to me, I believe that business is going— and entrepreneurship is going to hold up a mirror to you. And the mirror is going to reflect a limiting belief or like something that's really getting in the way. Because it's so easy to be like, "Oh my gosh, you have this great business, leave your job, jump in." Like, of course you would. Outside it's really easy to say that, but internally your own limiting beliefs are the ones telling you, and nervous system, right? Like fear and, you know, a lot of us have fear of success or fear of failure. And so for you, would you say, what would you say is sort of like you were coming up against something that now that you're on the other side, you're like, oh, I should have maybe done it earlier?

Yeah. I mean, I think I was doing both well. I mean, I was performance review well here, and then this build, this business is actually growing, Crit and Klybe. I was like, I can just, I can do both. Like I'm doing both fine. But there was at a point where I couldn't do both at the level that I wanted. Like I couldn't, and I just, I can't half-ass something. It's just like my personality. Like I can't just ignore this just to do, you know, I wanna give everything I can to one thing. And I just couldn't, I couldn't do that anymore. And so that's why I was like, I gotta go all in. But I think it was, and if anybody's thinking about quitting a job, or it's the corporate handcuffs. I mean, they are the golden handcuffs. I had incredible benefits. I had a 401k. I have a 6-month maternity leave that I would love to use, but just, you know, life hasn't turned there yet. But I, people are like, you just left all those benefits. And it's hard, but It was time to take that leap. But I think that's what was kind of holding me back from— and I think if I was unhappy in my job, maybe, but I loved my job.

Right. So was it a fear of, like a fear of maybe it won't work out? And maybe it's something that repetitively comes up for you when you're— is it a control thing? Like if I let go of something or surrender?

Potentially. I think I liked being— who's my business therapist? I think I liked being a CPA. Or I am, I mean, I am a CPA, but like, what do you do?

So it was an identity.

It was my identity. I was a corporate CPA. I worked for Deloitte. Like, I was like, oh wow, so cool. Like, you must be good with math. Like, I don't know. It's just I felt like I had— I don't know. It was like, it was an identity. It was impressive, which I think I was the only one that really cared about it.

I mean, of course, right? Like, we all think that more people are thinking and talking about us than they are. You know, we center ourselves because that's a fear of being seen or you know, like a fear of enoughness or not feeling enough or like a people pleaser. So for you, it sounds like a lot of your life you probably worked really hard to be the best, to earn, like to prove something. I mean, said by someone who did the same thing.

Yeah, no, yeah. I mean, it's not wrong. It's not wrong. And it's like saying it is so silly.

It's not silly. I mean, it's not silly, but it stems from somewhere, right? Like it stems from— Like, for me, I think it was attention, maybe. Like, I think for me, like, being the best at something was, how do I get the attention I want that I wasn't getting somewhere else, you know?

Yeah.

I always think— I always say, like, I need to mess my kids up just a little bit more so they're successful.

Two Type A people, overachievers.

Yeah, overachievers.

I was like, I must do all of the things really, really well and make all of the money, and then everyone will like me.

Right. And then though, the cost, there's always gonna be a cost, and this is for everyone. So then the cost is like burning out, not taking care of yourself. Yeah. I mean, you also experienced a loss, like— Yeah. You lost—

Yeah, no, I, my mom was diagnosed with glioblastoma, so brain cancer, and I had the ability to move back home. I mean, I ran Atlantic Blue, moved all the inventory into my sister's bedroom, and I was able to caretake, which was such a blessing. I could, 'cause I could do, and I could do Deloitte remotely as well. And I was able to help her through that, you know, final chapel. But I think I just realized that life is so short, right? So why am I doing both of these things? And so I was like, you know what, I did 10 years as the corporate CPA. Like, it's kind of next chapter. And CPA is not going anywhere. Like, I'll keep my license up. I mean, it is one of the oldest professions out there. Death and tax.

That and the other one we talked about.

Death and taxes. Um, still on the table, but I think I had to get there. I couldn't have anybody tell me. You couldn't tell me. No one could tell me. And yeah.

Yeah, I'll say that's my journey too. And I'd like— and everyone that hasn't had to experience a loss like the ones that you and I have recently, because what I used to think was like, in time-wise, like knowing I had limited time with my mom, cancer, the blessing is that you know that their time is like limited.

You get to say goodbye.

Yeah. And hopefully the suffering is not You know, terrible. But when we decided to move back from the East Coast back to LA and to really like also same thing, like shift and move everything, I used to say, I know that there will be a time that I won't have this and I will trade everything for this time. And so really telling everybody out there, it's like time is it. That's, that's not the renewable resource. So you learn that upfront where you, well, you had to, you know, you're working full-time, so like I get to hire people so that I so that I have more time, right? In the edges. And then I think that this turn, and maybe that, and you could tell me if it had to do with you eventually leaving corporate, but it was this idea of like, well, this is my life. There's nothing to prove. So what do you wanna do with your life, right? 'Cause it's really measured in seeing what happens. Do you think that that had anything to do with it? Or what do you think was like your shift where you really believed like, I can do this and I'm like, forget it. Like forget all the accolades and whatever. Like I'm just going all in on this.

I think it was the revenue. The revenue.

Yeah.

'cause I am just a numbers person and I do think the math has to math, but I hit a number and I didn't have like, I want to make, I've never had revenue goals like fixed, right? I mean, I was conscientious of spend and profitability and things like that, but I never was like, when I make a million, when I make $2 million, I'm going to quit. But once I did hit a million, I was like, oh no, this is kind of the shit. Like I, and I talked to my dad, he was in retail and it was always, it's always fun to like talk shop with him and like throw out numbers. And he was retail like, never touched e-commerce. Like he sold office supplies every day, retail store, general public walking in, brick and mortar. Exactly. And so I would just like throw out these numbers. I'm like, it's Thanksgiving, Black Friday sales are rolling in. I'm like, here, Dad, I just did $50K. I just did. He's like, are you kidding me?

He's like, I was wrong.

I'm wrong. It's just like sewing needlepoint. And so it was just so cool to like see his like reaction and being like, oh no, this is this is legit, like, this is impressive. Because I don't know, I didn't really have any other friends in e-commerce or retail. I didn't have— I, I had other, I guess, friends in the industry, but no one really— we don't really talk numbers. Like, no one talks, yeah, when did you quit? I mean, most— and no one I knew was working, was doing both, for the, for the most part. So I was— I felt kind of solo. Like, I didn't have that, like, mentor or Hey, no, this makes sense. You should keep going, or you should take that leap, or imagine if you didn't have a 40-hour, 50-hour work week, like what you could bring to your company.

Totally. Yeah, I mean, it's beautiful. And I think that's really, what you're saying is why we started the Product Boss in the first place, was because, and I think I told you, but I was a decade as an entrepreneur running my own company. Like there was no, we weren't really online yet. There wasn't like Zoom and, even, I mean, I think we, I don't remember what we were meeting on, maybe we were meeting on Zoom, but for a decade I had to Skype. Yeah. Oh, I think maybe it was Skype. Like forgot what Skype was. But I would, in order to be in community, I would go to trade shows. So I would be at, you know, fashion trade shows, sourcing trade shows, and then I would, you know, we'd go in and there'd be people talking about trends and blah, blah, blah. And I spoke at a lot of those too. And then I do remember the first time that I, I was listening to a podcast. It was a client. She was making bikinis for bodybuilder women. Like, this is— Oh yeah. I do all sorts of things.

Bedazzling.

Yeah. No, we did so much bedazzling on these tiny pieces of triangle fabric. And so she's like, do you listen to podcasts? And I was like, no. And she's like— I was like, what should I listen to? And she gave me like 5 podcasts. Serial. That was everyone's first podcast. Seriously. This was like Nellie Ekdal of Biz Chicks, which she was my very, very, very first coach. And then probably like Marie Forleo, things like that. And so I actually ended up listening to this episode with, with Natalie, and she was, you know, she, she coaches more like executives, like chiropractors, like brick-and-mortar service people. But I was a service at that point, and I hired her as a coach. Like, I was paying thousands of dollars a month, and I had never, I'd never, ever, ever paid for that. And But I was like, I can't keep doing this by myself. I keep hitting the same wall. I keep hitting the same roadblocks. I had little kids. I, you know, I wasn't charging enough. I wasn't operating it in the right way. And it was a decade of me figuring it out on my own. And that's great. But then at some point it's like, if you want that level up, it's, it's that. So I listened to her show, then I was like, do you coach? And then I hired her and then I joined her. She had a mastermind, like, which is kind of like what my collective is now. It's a community. I was by myself, there weren't other 6, 7-figure women-run businesses that I was like, there's no guidebook to read. Yeah, like this person's pissing me off, do I fire them or do I train them, right? And so that's where I met my original co-founder, and that's when her and I started the Product Boss. We thought there's no spaces for product people, because same thing, like you could go be with your finance people, but they don't understand production being stuck on a ship, or QC issues, or like, sitting on inventory or having full, like USPS just lost some packages for you.

My favorite friend, the USPS. Yeah, no, yeah.

You know? And so I think that that's important to be, that's literally the impetus of this company as is, is just to create community for people, relationship networking, knowing you're not alone, and having strategy and advice for all the levels that you go through. It's all the same. So I totally, I could see that. So for you, you were, Let's kind of cut to, you left, um, and then what are your goals for this year for your company?

Yeah, so we're hoping to double revenue, so maybe $4 or $5 is our—

$4 or $5 million?

$4 or $5 million, which is insane even to say out loud, and we're on track for it. I mean, we're about to wrap Q1, which is crazy.

You're having massive growth.

And we're having massive, massive growth. I was my first-time employee and Got the 401 set up. You know, we've got, I'm like, we're, we're, we're a real, we're a real company. And I, we have 3 more that we're trying to get full-time, trying to get them to also leave their full-time jobs.

So let's go, let's cut to that real fast.

Yeah.

You had a bunch of contractors, so yep. One thing that you and I started working on when, when we started working together was really professionalizing the company. Cuz obviously the revenue's there, the sales are there, the marketing's there, but it's one leveling you up as CEO of the company and then thinking How do you smooth out operations so people's hair are not on fire? So tons of contractors. And so right now we basically looked at, well, first we had you audit.

Yeah.

What you do.

What I did.

Yeah.

And I'm over here, I'm packing USPS packages, which is fine, is great, but like that's not the best use of my time.

Or how are your weekends spent?

Yeah, no, Saturdays and Sundays and nights. Yeah. So that was actually the first thing.

And emailing customer service.

And emailing. I'm still emailing customer service, a lot of them, but we're getting better. She's like, "Err." But the first thing I did was cut weekends. And we still do it like on launch week and things like that. But we cut nights and we cut weekends and it just, it was just the biggest, it was the biggest shift. And I think I was the driver of it, right? Because I was like, I'm going to be here. Like, okay, we'll come in, we'll come in too.

Totally.

So it was kind of like, no, we are, we are closed. We are closed on weekends. We are not going to be here at night. We'll do a Tuesday night push because I have a couple of team members that love to come in Tuesday night. So we'll order in pizza and we'll do an inventory count, something, something like that. But it was just realizing that I shouldn't be doing like the actual— I was in the weeds too much.

Yeah.

Right? So I was working for the business, not on the business.

Mm-hmm.

Um, look at all my technical business therapist terms. Um, I've learned so much. And so it— I had to be the forward thinker. And then I think what also hit me was I'm going over to the Philippines this, um, spring to visit our painting facility. That means I'm gonna be away from the studio for 4 weeks.

Mm-hmm.

And so stepping away was a big goal of mine. Like last year, or when my mom was sick, I was able to slam that laptop shut on my corporate job. I was able to take 2 weeks of short-term disability to like handle final affairs and like be there. And that was fine. Like I shut the laptop and like the world didn't crumble. You can't do that when you're an entrepreneur unless you have the structure built, right?

Yeah.

I could not do that even probably right now. I like, I just could not do that for a long period of time. So I am thinking about it ahead in the Philippines. We've talked about this a lot, like, what do we have to get in order for me to step away? And that's stepping back, that's hiring people, that's trusting people, which is big for me right now. And it's making sure I'm not the bottleneck. And to do that, you have to hire a team to run it. And so I'm so lucky, I have already like a fantastic group of talent. I'm so lucky to have them, but it's, it's giving them the control, it's getting rid of their other responsibilities, AKA their day jobs, and allowing them to kind of join me on this wild ride, and letting them own it as well, and feel like part of something and building something.

Yeah, and when you say day jobs, it's because they were part-time, so they had full-time, they had other jobs, and they came and worked for you. Yeah, they're side hustlers. Yeah, so it's really, and that's what we looked at first. We said, what's on your plate that we really get to get rid of? Anything that you needed to create SOPs, like standard operating procedures, and like, and track. And then it was looking at your current team and saying, who's amazing that could really step into these roles and level up and, and become a full-time person at the company? So what was so cool is you have so many people that work for you. Even today we like, we're like, oh, there's an EA.

Yeah, no, I was serious. I was like, oh, I work with her. And I, I think it was me asking, hey, would you ever want a bigger role here? And I was just I think I was just blown away with like people that were like, yes, of course they do. I'd love to do this with you. And so that was, I think that was like one of the first things I did after we started talking was like, I started talking to who I already knew and being like, if you were ever wanting to leave or your job or look to do something more, and I think so far everyone said yes, which is, yeah, which is a representation of you as a, as the owner and the culture you've created. Yeah.

And they've been waiting.

No, I think they have.

Yeah, yeah, they're like, please, they'd rather be here.

And that's what's brought me so much joy is being able to finally be able to do that. I mean, I, like, a couple years ago, no, we didn't have the, the business structure, the cash flow, like the revenue for it. So being able to do that was really fun. Yeah. And being able to like actually offer them a competitive job salary, I think, has just been like, it's so cool.

Yeah.

It's so cool.

And so that's the part today what we were working on, 'cause like, what do you wanna work on? And you have so much covered and we were really talking about the org chart, and what I want people to know is that when you are hiring, you're not hiring for today. You get to really hire for the business 3 months from now, 'cause it'll take, it could take up to 90 days. We do at our company, it's a 30, 60, 90. So by 90 days, the person should pretty much be on their own. So of course, if we're gonna go into busy season, you don't hire in busy season. You hire now, you train and, and all that. You have this deadline of, of your travel. So, you know, it is, it's like, how do we do that? And there's just simple holes or simple things that, 'cause when you're in it, when you're in the weeds, you can't see it from like a bird's eye view. Yeah. So I think like working together, it's able to be like, hey, what do you think about this? And like asking the questions for you to say like, oh yeah, of course it's right there. You know?

Yeah. And I think that was, I mean, I knew nothing about executive coaching. I had never even thought about what executive coaching would be until Nancy kind of brought it up.

Yeah.

But it's, it's just that it's a consultant. It's an outside person that can take a bird's eye view, an outsider view, and I don't know, tell you what you need. Or at least here's how other— I mean, what I'm doing is not unique in the slightest, right? Like, I mean, a lot of— I fit a lot of the mold of a lot of small businesses. So it's like, you need a production person, you need a finance person, you need this person. And realizing, oh, the same person should not be doing all of these things. Um, and they need a direct report, they need support. So what, and then how to support me.

Yeah.

No, it was, it's, it's interesting that we, we had, you know, whiteboarded it all out and it was kind of cool to see like where the gaps were and then, okay, this person's gonna do this and then in 6 months she's probably gonna need support in that. And yeah, it's really cool.

Yeah. And it's filling in, it's, it's one, and just like as I was saying to you, one person can fill in multiple seats, but they just hold a responsibility. Cuz if it's wishy-washy, everything's wishy-washy. —Okay, I want to talk about though a really cool thing that you just implemented yesterday. So you and I had talked about all of your product. So normally, what's your normal— when you release your products, you've gone through all your development and production, what's your normal drop on all your customers? Like how many— Yeah, like how many canvases do you drop?

So we have those two big trade shows twice a year, and that's usually when we drop like a lot of new things. And so our next one is April. April, and we have like 200 things like ready to drop. So 200 completely brand new canvases, never seen before. Yeah. And we've been working on design production for, I don't know, 5 months, 4 months. 'Cause it, it take, they all are hand painted, so it takes a while. Yeah. But yeah, so stuff has been slowly rolling in and we're getting it ready to go, but we kind of just like sitting on this inventory until this April drop.

And what we know is that customers, because the, the professionalizing again of your business is is thinking in, because this costs money to make it, to develop it, to produce it. A lot of money. It costs a lot of money. That's what product people, you can't just come up with willy-nilly ideas and not cost. So you're sitting here on all this product and you usually drop it and you have a massive amount of sales, but our goal for you is that we get more sales throughout and also drive the want of it, the desire. So, you know, if you drop two, if any of you are like following your favorite ecom store and they're all of a sudden new launch and it's 200 things, you'll get through page 1 or 2 and then drop out. And so what drives— another thing that we're working on is, is getting people to spend more money with you more often. And so by doing that, it's putting new and fresh things in front of them all the time. But the caveat is not 200 new things a month. We have 200 things. Yeah. So yeah, you had told your team because it was like a different thing, but this last week You implemented a totally different strategy. So what did you end up doing?

Yeah, so we're going to start launching, we're going to do once a month ideally, because we saw, we looked at our sales rate and our customer was buying from us, our returning customer, quarterly, like 4 times a year, which kind of lines up with our drops and then seasonality. And then we always do like a Black Friday sale. So I was like, how do we have our customer come back more often? So yeah, we did a, we did a March drop. So we were, we launched 25 new things. We didn't really overthink it. We didn't overcurate it too much. It was product that we already had that we were like, it was already in Shopify. Everything was already loaded for next month. And yeah, we went ahead and dropped it. We sold everything out. Sold everything out. On a Wednesday. So I flew off and I'm like, bye, enjoy the queue team, the order queue. I'm headed off to LA. But it was awesome. And it just, it just like, it was such a not easy—

Can I say the number? Just so people's like, it was $60,000. $60,000. $60,000 in a day.

Yeah, and 25 styles. My husband was like, "Why? What did you do?" I was like, "Well, I just had all this inventory sitting here and I just, we posted it." You just focused.

Like, it was like, confused customers don't buy. Like, whenever anybody, you know, I talk to all different levels of businesses and I say this and they don't believe me. So this is just at scale, right? It's like, okay, I know you have 200 things, but you pulled out just 25 of those, dropped it, created revenue that you were gonna wait and hold till next month.

Yeah, I mean, the dollar here, the dollar later, but it's— it's, it— when I was thinking, when you guys said, like, 200 things to a consumer is so much stuff, and I'm like, you're right. And so, yeah, we just kind of—

yeah. So then what that does, because one of the things that you and I also looked at, and because there's a couple levers that people can pull to generate money, and I've done episodes on this, it's, it's returning customers. So it's getting the people to buy from you that buy from you already to come back and buy again more often. So that's lifetime value. Then it's raising the cart value. So how do we get them to spend more, which is You know, we add threads and some accessories and scissors. Yeah. So you've had like ways to raise the average order value. And of course there's always new leads, but when people are always looking for new customer, new customer, new customer, they're missing the low-hanging fruit. So if we can do drops monthly of 25 at a time, maybe a customer who's only bought 4 times comes back and now goes to 6 times. And I was telling you, we don't even necessarily always need new customers. We just need them to spend more.

And it's easier and cheaper to, you know, go to a returning customer. I mean, that's a Klaviyo email. Yeah. Than it is to go and spend that meta targeting ads and all. And we do, and we do do that, but that's a much more expensive customer to capture than my already.

And you've got them, so let's make more money from them. Yeah. Crushed it. Absolutely crushed it. New way of doing business, plus you're going to market. And we were talking about also like strategy there. So what are you most excited about this year? Like, what do you, like, what do you just like are you like so excited about to create?

I'm just excited that we get to all do this full-time. Yeah. Like without distractions. Like the team, I mean, they are my friends. Like we have personal relationships. I've been able to travel more, which has been like super cool. I try to go visit a lot of different shops and stuff. So I just did Texas. We're going to do New York this summer and Chicago. So, and I love to travel. Like I find me on a Delta flight, proud Delta Medallion Diamond. So I love doing that. I mean, the fact that my husband and I, because he's going to the Philippines with me, we're big scuba divers. So obviously it's, we're going to visit the facility, in the painting house, but we're gonna go scuba dive and have a vacation. And the fact that I can like do that for a month is, that's, I mean, that's the goal, right? Like that's the dream. That's living the dream for sure. So yeah, I'm excited about that. My, so my sister is one of my employees.

She like, as of, she quit on Monday.

Yeah, like she quit her full-time like in the hospital. She's a physician's assistant, like a medical physician's assistant. Like did a lot of years of school.

My sister hears this 'cause she also works in a hospital. She wants to come on board.

So she's had a kid and he's adorable and she's just working, you know, she's like, I can't be in the hospital, just, it's a lot, it's so much. And so she's been helping me for a while, obviously part-time, we're all side hustling. And I was like, if I could get you over, would you want to do it? And she's like, yeah. And I was like, really? And she's like, yeah. I'm like, well, I couldn't pay you probably as much as you're making now. And she's like, I was like, that's okay, it'd be so fun. And I'm so— so that's like so cool that we both get to kind of do that together. So yeah, I'm excited. I'm excited to work with some really talented people and grow this thing.

Yeah. So it's— yeah, and it's cool because actually in reflection of sort of where you were and where you are now is that— and you're continuously doing it because that's what we're working on together too, is like the surrender and the trust. So it goes in two ways. One, trusting that you leave your full-time— well, one, you just trusted I'll figure this out as I go. Then leave the full-time job. I'm gonna trust that same thing. I'll keep, I'll figure it out. You can always go back to being a CPA. Knock on wood, it's not gonna happen. And then now you're in that trust and surrender of that level up of trusting the people you've hired, trusting that you can train them, trusting that whatever mistakes, we can clean them up, right? And also surrendering to it all so that you can go live your life. Yep. Because that's why you did this, for freedom, right?

And that they all can live their lives. Yeah. And they all can do this that brings them joy, brings them happiness. Yeah. They're getting that whatever fulfillment we all get fulfillment somehow out of our jobs, ideally. And yeah, so they get—

how cool, like everybody wants to work there. Yeah, everyone, they're like, not going to happen.

No, I mean, they are beyond talented. I mean, I'm— it's— their ideas are better than mine. I, I've, I have hired people better than me for, for sure.

Yeah. But the, but, and that's, I think, the same with at my company was especially like team members getting pregnant, like as a woman, and when I was pregnant and how I had to kind of like hide it, not hide it, but I didn't I felt like I was gonna be judged 'cause it was still kind of back in the day where it was pre-pandemic, so nobody mixed them. Now everything's mixed, right? My dogs are running around, my kids are coming home in a minute, all the things. But now it's like, it is, it's, there's work-life balance. I think, I think people get to be in ownership of their work-life balance and our, and our team members, they get to be in ownership of that. Mm-hmm. They get to choose how long they wanna scroll TikTok and waste their time versus, I don't know, whatever it is that they wanna do. 'Cause I have like a friend right now who runs a massive business and she has a team member that wants a raise because she lives so far away from the location. And we're like, she applied to this job, right? So it's this idea of ownership and choice that they have as well. But being a part of the culture of this company means that you get to live your life. And that's for me, I like, if I, you know, I want my team members to go on the vacations that they want. I want them to take off time for, maternity leave, and 3 months is like what I've given. Because why else are we doing this? And we'd all be working for the quote unquote man. But we've left that. We're like, we've built our own buildings, right? We're like doing our own thing, drinking coffee during like, you know, 4 PM and doing podcasts. So I'm really excited for what you're excited about. What would you tell people on the journey? Like, what would you like, what do you wish maybe someone told you 5 years ago?

Someone did tell me early on, they said just bootstrap as long as you can, which I don't, I don't, but like I did. Like I, I try to do it yourself as long as you can. I remember someone—

What do you mean by do it yourself?

Like, let me see how I can like phrase this in like a way, like my website, for example, you get so sucked up with like my, I need this beautiful cohesive website. You can spend tens of thousands of dollars on a website. Um, but you might not know what you want. Your brand might not be where you want it to be. Like I remember my logo, like I made my logo on Etsy, like else, but you have to start somewhere. And so start. If you overthink it too much, if you get too much in your head, you can't do it. Put the design on canvas. I mean, you could see some of my first designs, like they were horrible, horribly painted, not even, etc. But you— I had to start somewhere, and you can't start with perfection. Yeah. So that's why I was like, I kind of did my own website on my Shopify myself, like in the bootstrap sense. And now I'm spending the, you know, before, but the tens of thousands of dollars to hire that professional. But I do think doing it yourself it teaches you and has an appreciation for when you bring in those professionals. Keep your eyes on your finances. Like, don't ignore your finances. Get it out of your personal checking account. Like, get that business checking account as quickly as— like, try to keep church and state separate. Like, this is the CPA talking. But I mean, treat it like a business even early on, I think is so important. I had wished I had brought in a professional. Maybe don't bootstrap your finances, but you keep an eye on it. I think you were saying Oprah still—

Yeah, Oprah just talked about how she's like, I'll never still go through her, like, yeah, finances and everything.

Yeah. So even now I have like a CPA and I have an admin team, but like, I— anything over $1,000, like, I have to click the approve button on. Yeah. And I have a pretty good concept of like, again, I, I know what a P&L is. I know, but I know where our money is going. I'm looking at it on a weekly, monthly basis. If something doesn't seem right, I'm asking questions. So I guess my advice there is like, just keep an— keep an eye on your finances. Don't just say, oh, my husband's just handling it. Like, no, you need to sit down, have someone explain it to you so you have a pass on it. But yeah, I'm thinking of like what else I would have done differently earlier on. Hire earlier. Hire earlier. Hire earlier. Yeah, yeah. Like, I, I shouldn't be doing customer service emails for sure, but, um, I think I've held on for it so long because I was— I wanted to make sure my customers were happy, right? Like, that was the end of the day. Like, if they weren't happy and coming back, like, it doesn't matter how many great designs I, I sell. So I wanted to make sure our customers in the end were happy.

Well, I think that's like value alignment, because I've talked to you about this book at some— Think Big, Act Small. And I forget, I don't remember if it was like PetSmart, or there was, there was one massive brand that the CEO and founder, they would have customers write on the little pieces of paper like, how are we doing? And they drop it in like the customer review box. He literally would sit with stacks of them and review every single one, because customer service and customer happiness and fulfillment was one of their top, top values, which is why they were a great business. And so it was still operating like think small. So that's not me telling you to keep in the inbox, but it's because of your value to that and what you've established, which is how I think you've also grown so well, is something that gets to be a core value of the company. Not like when we call AT&T and we never talk to a real person and I'm like, never, never.

No, people do. When I email back, they're like, Oh my gosh, you're answering these emails? Yeah.

And I said, "Sure am." So there's a level of you instilling that, like one day I wanna put my team through Disney has trainings, like the Disney Way. Incredible company, yeah. It'd be so cool, right? So you're instilling the values in the company and you got there this way. And does it mean that you don't then open up your app that has all the help tickets in it and like take a look every so often? Of course, if that's a value for you, sure, you have a reporting system. But yeah, I mean, listen, what got you here is amazing. And what's going to get you to that next level? It's like, let all of this be, you know, it's no longer your ceiling, it's your floor.

And now to get to the $5 million, $10 million business, like, I know we were talking about this earlier and it's like, I mean, we were all part-time side hustlers, my entire team, 3 months ago. And so like the faucet is not even like fully on yet. Like, and we haven't even— like when you're unleashed. Yeah, no, like when we're unleashed, like just watch out world, we're all going to be needlepointing. But I'm I'm just so excited to see everyone get to kind of run and have that space and creativity to like, yeah, let's do this thing.

Totally. So that's really like, you know, what got you here is going to be different than what gets you there. And you get to keep upgrading your life. And that's the cool thing. It's like, how do we have the both and? We get to. Of course there's going to be nights that you're at night, like you're on weekends or, you know—

I will be packing orders again.

Of course. I would 100%— yes. Of course. I mean, in this business, like I'm still fully— So there's, it's not a stepping out, it's just a stepping into what I'm best at, where I want to sit in the company, and then getting to enjoy this one beautiful life that we have.

Yeah, I think that's really important is like, what are you best at? What are your strengths? And even my team, I'm like, this person's really good at spreadsheets, like this person's really good customer-facing, and it's like creating the role and responsibility for them where they can shine and grow. Like I'm not going to make the per— the creativity brain that like make her, force her to use Excel. Yeah. The girl that runs all our Excels and our pivots and analysis, like that's her love language. And so it is, and where's my strengths? What am I best at? Yeah. And making sure that I'm supported and know what my goals are. I think when we first started, you're like, what's your goals? And I was like, no idea.

I was like, I have no, I have no, just getting packages out on time.

I was like, I have no, literally, I mean, I, I was going day by day, week by week, fire by fire. Yeah. Like I had no forward thinking. I think that was like grief too, right? Yeah. You've talked about it is is you just, you don't want to address it. And so here's the therapy, but like you're just, you constantly, and I'm a, I just, I'm a doer. I love to do, I love to stay busy. I'm a multitasker. I talk fast. I filled my day to just be distracted. And so you just taking a step back and being like, oh no, we all have hobbies. We all have a life that we need to live. We all need that time to unplug and step away. So prioritizing that and not just cramming every, living day by day. And yeah, what is, what is my goal? If someone had to, You was like, create your perfect year, create your perfect team. And then I did it and you're like, that team's already here. That team is already here.

So what are we celebrating a year from now? Oh gosh. What are you gonna celebrate? Like, it doesn't have to be, it could be revenue, it could be like, I, because you wanted, you wanna be a month in the Keys next year. So like, yeah, what are we celebrating?

Um, I mean, I think I would love, we just, so we did actually a team retreat. So all the designers I represent, we went to Disney. Awesome. So in January, 19 of us. We went to Magic Kingdom. We stitched Needlepoint in line. That was something— we're going to do it again, 100%. They want to go to Universal now, and I'm like, fine, we go to Harry Potter World. Twist my arm. So I'd love to celebrate a new year. I'd love to have more team members. Yeah, I mean, the fact that I get to work with my sister full-time, I don't think it's like really hit me yet because like she's my best friend. So to be able to do that is It's gonna be cool.

That's awesome. It's gonna be cool. How beautiful. Tearing up.

I know, I've got goosebumps. So literally she quit on Monday.

What a legacy too for like for your parents that they, they worked so hard at the business that they were in and seeing you model like a different way of doing it.

No, people ask me that like, you know, with a retail store, and it's probably like one of the most questions I get asked, um, after when are you gonna have kids, but after the kids question, when you have kids, when you open a retail store, and I just, it's not, that's not on my vision board at all as a retail store because I watched my parents do it. Like a brick and mortar 9 to 5, I mean, you are there every day. When that alarm goes off at the middle of the night, like my dad was the one answering it, going down there. Yeah. So doing that, no. If I can keep doing what I'm doing in e-commerce, is, of course, that's, that's, that's the goal.

And you're supporting, you're after this, you're going to the Needlepoint store. Yeah, we're going to the local store here.

Yeah, I, I, I love that. No, my, no, and we have two stores in Atlanta, that market is fully, fully supported from a Needlepoint perspective. So, but what a—

just like, I know, I know you're like feeling the feelings, but like, just like, what a blessing. Like, it's like the blessing of family. It's the blessing of like, of generating wealth. Yeah. Generating legacy. Like, you know, it is the legacy of your parents that you get to bring forward and what you learn that you want to take with you and what you're leaving behind, right? Like, you're like, I saw you guys do that. Thank you. Blessings. I'm not going to do— stores are for someone else. Else. You know, that's usually what I'm coaching my clients out of. They're like, they want a store. I'm like, like how you were dealing with all the contractors like coming or not coming.

It's like, no, like, it's tough. It's tough. Yeah.

So it's, and so it's really like living this life of alignment. And I am excited for you to be in the Keys next year. Yeah. Taking a month off. I'm gonna try to do a month away from the studio. Operating it and your sister and her kiddo like coming and like your dad and like you celebrating everything you've built.

Yeah. Yeah, no, I mean, most— I was reading some stat that like our parents' generation, the boomers, they worked the same job for 35 years. I mean, like the pension, because the pension's a big discussion in the accounting world, um, but they didn't switch roles. And then our— my generation, I guess we're millennials, we do like 5 to 6 jobs. Like it's still— but then this next generation, it's just, it's just completely different. And so the way we're working is just, it's just different than our parents' work. So And I, I think out of 2022, so many new businesses, so many new industries were created. I just think the way that we're working is just, I mean, remote work did not exist.

Of course not. 20 years ago. And now, and now you sit on your laptop.

Yeah. No, so I mean, it's the fact that I'm like, oh yeah, I'm gonna go sit in the Florida Keys for a month. Still probably make as much money as I would make sitting in Atlanta, if not more. Yeah. Um, it's just crazy, but it's, it's, it's just, it's a different world.

And that's what I see for you. Like I, I talk about, sand, if I were to put a scoop of sand in your hand right now and you were to squeeze really, really tight and you open up your hand, you'd have very little sand in your hand, right? But if you open up your hand and I— and you leave it open and I keep putting sand in it, we could stack that sand really high. And that's what I think also that I vision for you too, is a year from now you're in the Keys with the sand and you think about this and you're like, oh, letting go, surrendering, trusting, you're going to be able to hold so much more and your company will be able to hold so much more. And that's really the growth edge of like a little bit of the letting go and enjoying your life is gonna be the thing that like lifts everything up. You know, so I'm just so excited for you.

No, I'm excited too. And I, this relationship, you've introduced me to other people, other professionals. I think that's the coolest part is to be like, to talk shop with people. And like, we're like, oh yeah, no, we're all just, I say we're selling the widget. Like we're all selling the widget, but it's, It's just cool to build something and build a name and build a brand and to tell people about it.

And to be a woman doing it.

And to be a woman doing it.

Yeah, because you're crushing it. So I actually want to give you something. Um, so, um, presents? Yeah, I've got more presents for you, but this is something that like I love to give my clients and— Oh, look at this sword. Oh, it's all tied up, but it's a, it's a, um, the North Star. It's a compass. Yes.

So for you to really think about what my north star is. Yeah, your north star.

It's true. And it's your vision. And it's not only the vision for the company, but it's the vision for the life you're creating. And then you get to be the north star for your team. Yes.

Yeah, I think that was too, is like admitting what you want and going to get it. I think admitting like, oh yeah, no, my goal is to make this much money and to fly first class and take time off. I think it's like such a woo-woo thing to say, but we talk numbers. Women hate talking numbers. Women are afraid of finance, etc. And so I think just talking about it, taking that taboo away from numbers and asking for what you want and then going after it, I think is—

Well, thank you for sharing the numbers. Of course. Because it was something you didn't know.

It is, but it is, it is, it's, people love and hate it.

Listen, I'm always about it because it's proof that, like, people think that there's something else somebody has that they don't have that is the reason why they're not going to get there. It's just about, it's just not giving up. It's just about like, and I talk about the glass ceiling that we have for ourselves, is just blowing the roof off. What if, like, what's possible? And just keep asking, well, what, what's possible? Well, maybe that's possible. And holding, I think the thing that, and I work with my students in the Collective on this because in the Collective, which is my group program, it's the who you be, what you do to have what you want. So it can't just be strategy to have, it's gotta also be this level up of, of mindset and support, which is why you We joke about the therapy part, because if I was like, go do this thing, of course you could do it, but your mind's going to tell you, wait, hold on, can you do it? So it's just really continuously thinking like, how do I blow the roof off? So modeling it, being around people, being in community of it, having like a strategic advisor, executive coach, just being in the room. And that's, that was always the possibility. That's when I leveled up was like, I just was around six-figure moms with businesses. And then it was like, oh, we could get to seven figures. Wait, what? How? You know? And then, and then from there.

So I'm a tennis player and they always say you got to play with someone, you got to play someone better than you because it makes you play better. Like playing with someone better brings up your game. If you play with someone who just lobs it, like you're just going to lob it back. So yeah, no, it's constantly surrounding yourself with better, stronger people. And I was like, it's time to bring in the professionals. It's time to talk to someone who's been doing this for 10 years. In— yeah, more than 10 years. 20 years. I know, I know. I'm in my 30s, but unfortunately But no, and I think that's, I guess that's more advice too, is keep hiring the people that are better than you. Keep asking, admitting that like, oh no, I'm, I don't know what this is. I don't know how to do sales tax or how to market or how to use TikTok, how to advertise on Meta. I mean, those are all things I didn't do last year. And I was like, hi, someone, someone please help me. Yeah. And doing it.

Yeah. And it's of course it's that chicken or the egg. But like you said, you know, you kept working until you could pull out enough. But you hired to get out of the way. So like the difference, I mean, I think that's a core thing is like you knew you were the bottleneck and you have to always continuously ask yourself, how do I remove myself as a bottleneck? Oh, I'm a bottleneck here. Great. How do I get out of that? You need to fire yourself every day. Oh my God. I love that. You need to fire yourself every day.

I heard that. I didn't make that up.

I didn't say that one, but that's really good.

I listened to, um, I like Guy Raz, um, How I Built This. I think I listened to every episode and a lot of those, I, cause I was listening to I mean, they were bootstrapping it in their basements. Same. I mean, I remember Brooklyn and like they were doing that both working part, full-time corporate jobs. And so that's how a lot of people, you know, it started, 'cause that's your funding. But yeah, no, you had to fire yourself every day because that's how you get better.

So that's my homework for everybody is go figure out how you can fire yourself from something, right? Either fire yourself because whatever you're doing doesn't matter, meaning, You know, if you don't wanna do social media anymore, just stop if it's not like generating, or like get better at it, or fire yourself and go hire someone, or someone that you already have around you, give them more responsibility 'cause they're waiting for it. Like people, human beings are going to need jobs and we get to be the people that employ them. Of course AI is gonna help us improve speed and stuff like that, but the person who fulfills this still gets to be like real hands and they love it.

Yep. Until we make a robot. I wish.

No, but yeah, no, there's, And then we're gonna need people to manage the robots. Exactly, exactly. But on that note, so fire yourself, just go for it, and just, I think really, like, you're just a model of just going for it.

Yeah, and hustle. And hustle.

I love a good hustler. Love a good hustler. So tell us how we can buy from you and support you.

So AtlanticBlueCanvas.com online. If you're near a local needlepoint shop, we do sell to most in the US, and—

And if they don't have Atlantic Blue Canvas, you go say, hey, do you have Atlantic Blue Canvas? Yes, you should really look at that more.

But yeah, we're on the socials, Atlantic Blue Canvas, and we could do a code. Should we do a code? Yeah, uh, we can do PRODUCTBOSS20. Sure, for 20% off.

So nice of you, PRODUCTBOSS20. Yeah, we'll drop it in the—

awesome— in the notes. Amazing. Yeah, it's, it's gets you off your phone. It's definitely a nice relaxing hobby.

So whenever my clients, whenever I tell them, like especially my collective, when I'm like, hey guys, like if you're bored, get a hobby, we all have a new hobby. Like don't make new stuff for your business, go needlepoint and then stick to the plan.

I've been wanting to do like a boss lady or like some sort of like snarky—

Yeah, maybe we could do some sort of collab at some point.

Saying of some sort, but I have something actually here.

This is a collab. This is Tintacker, she's also a client, and she did one with us. She did She Thought She Could So She Did in product class. So there it is, we're doing it. We got little gifts for you. Thank you for being on the show. Of course. Oh, you just walk right into it. Our emotional support pups too. The dogs are just really, they're very excited by our energy, but thank you for being on the show and for doing this interview. For being an amazing client. So everyone, thank you. And if you're interested— if you're interested in seeing how we can support you here at The Product Boss and your business is making 6 figures or above and you're looking for one-on-one clients is something that I take very rarely, but if you're looking for that support daily and weekly and community, you can go to theproductboss.com/bookacall, theproductboss.com/bookacall, and I have some incredible team members that that are there to talk to you and work with you and say like, how can we support you in the growth of your business? So I'll see you all next week.