How I became a board member of a major supermarket

Here's the first thing that I'm wondering. I wanted to ask you, Jesse, about this board meeting event that you had. And I know that a lot of stuff came up for you because you texted me about it. But the thing that I'm wondering though is what's the benefit of being on a board? I feel like for you it is, it's a kind of a glamour role because Schnucks, the supermarket, is all over where you are and now you're a board member. So that gives you, I was very impressed when I first found out. So that's good. On the other hand, it feels like every few weeks you're off and away and disconnected for 2, 3 days because of this. And for what? It's not worth the money. Are they teaching you anything? You're not getting in the grocery store business. It's not like being on the board of ChatGPT.

Ah, um, fair questions. I mean, I think it's, it's a, it's 1 day every 3 months, by the way, outside of this trip. So just, I think that, I think that is an important thing because I think the time commitment is something you got to think carefully about. You know, it's something that in the last 3 to 5 years or maybe 4 to 7 years has become more of a thing where people have asked me to be on their boards or like I've had a conversation, oh, you should be on our board. I'd say in my career, I'm probably a relative newbie to it. Like, I don't know that much about being on a board. My younger brother is on like 10 boards because he's a venture capitalist and that's like how they govern their companies. And, but I think that for big companies, the typical board profile is like, you've already done some big stuff. You're probably like most of the other board, non-family board members on this board are very, very successful career professionals. Like one of my friends on the board is the CEO of Jamba Juice. So they've run big companies. They know how to do that. And then they're kind of like in their, you know, they're retired for the most part, but then they sit on a handful of these boards and it's a pretty good career, you know, in terms of learning, staying astute, being able to interact, but also making good money. So I think I'm a little weird, I guess is kind of what I'm saying in terms of board profile. I think the spiritual side of me is just like, I'm like curious and open to learning different things and like when things come at you, Am I like a little bit of like, does it feel right? And I think, you know, it's just like, it's kind of a random opportunity for me as far as opportunities go. And I was like, oh, it's kind of interesting how this just showed up, showed up for me. And I can, I can tell how it showed up. In terms of the specific framework I've used for the businesses, I always like, the things I always tell people is like, number one is like, do I, you know, do I, do the people and I feel values aligned? Do I get along with them? Will I learn something from the people? That's like anything I do, I wanna make sure the people are People who, who I'm gonna learn from, who I respect, who they respect me. Like there's just a really good human rapport. The second thing is, um, can I have an impact in some way? And we should talk about that one 'cause it's kind of an interesting topic for this. And then the third one is, uh, can I learn something? Like, will I learn something from this? And then maybe the fourth one is compensation or sort of like involvement time compensation, that kind of thing. So I've— I've been approached by a couple other public companies and the first one is usually the most common one where they'll fall out. It used to be my third and then I realized it's the first, which is like, if I just don't get along with the people or don't think, you know, it's just, I'm like, ah, I can't, I can't like, especially, you know, post-COVID now you have to fly in. And I was approached by one that was pretty lucrative, but I was like, yeah, I just, I went and visited them. I was like, yeah, this is not, It's not my, my kind of people. So yeah, I don't know. It's come at me. I think I learned— well, I'll tell you, like, having impact is an interesting one. The people are amazing. The family is extremely admirable.

What makes them amazing? It's a supermarket. I don't mean to put it down that it's a supermarket all the time. What I mean is that you're so curious about—

I mean, well, let's be clear. It's a 3, it's a 3 now, $4+ billion company.

Okay.

You know, 'cause they just bought a big company. Like, it's a big company as far as companies go, right? And—

Huge.

It's been around for 80 years. Grocery is a really fascinating category actually for, and we can talk about why, but like, you know, they spend marketing dollars, they spend IT dollars. I mean, they have more AI going on than we have at GatewayX, believe it or not. So, so there's a lot of interesting things about just being in that. The perch for me is totally unique. I've never been involved in something that large before, that longstanding. But none of that has anything to do with what makes the family unique. The family is— it's one of the coolest stories ever. Like, this woman started one retail store 86 years ago. Her sons grew it out to being really, really big. One son had 2 kids, the other son had 5 kids. The son with 2 kids said, you know what, I want us to be long-term owners and I want no fighting between the family. And he, instead of having his kids own 50% and then the other guy's, you know, kids split 50, he, the one of the brothers made sure that all of the kids, the 7 kids had the same share roughly by giving up a bunch of his side of the family's equity essentially in the business. So now you've got 7 siblings who today are between the ages of 60 and 80. Who are all still alive, who, who like, they're the shareholders of the business. That's the only shareholders. And I like this, this past week I watched them in a room together. They're, you know, can you imagine running? I could not run a business with my brothers. I love my brothers. I love having fun with them. I talk to 'em every day. They're, they're running the business together. They're having candid conversations. They're also respectful of each other. They're making multi, you know, 9-figure, 10, you know, billion-dollar decisions together. And they're really generous and they're very service-oriented and they have great values and and they're all super rich. They could all retire and do whatever they wanted, but they're really into this thing that their family has created and runs. And and like, I think they're unique in their own industry because most of the siblings are fighting and you know there's wars going on and stuff, and they're just this really really great stewards of the family. And then they're big stewards of the city of St. Louis too, which I think is. You know, they, the botanical gardens here, they recently just made a massive donation to, to Fearit. So they're just, they're just really, really admirable people. Um, and I, I tell people this all the time, which is normally you expect when you get closer to something like this to see the warts and like, oh yeah, 'cause like, you know, that's a well-known and like, I'm actually like, I, I tend to be, I feel like they're getting better the closer I get to them in terms of like those things.

How did you Become a board member here. How did they get to know you and ask you?

So, it was one of those things that kind of came out of the blue. There's a guy named Matt Schnuck who's on social media, and he's the next generation. So his dad is one of those seven.

Okay.

And I he coincidentally started a business a business very similar to Ampush and sold it, and was in the Bay Area. And so obviously it's not a big world. So him and I got in a room together at some point, or we were at an event, I think a networking event. And I was like, oh, Matt Chinook. Yeah, you're from St. Louis. Like, I'm going to move back to St. Louis one day. And like, you know, I'd say that to a lot of people and everyone kind of looks at me like, what? And I'm like, and he's like, yeah, sure, whatever, buddy. Like, and then him and I got to know each other and became friends and stayed in touch. And then I did move back to St. Louis. And, and so I guess, you know, boards shift and there's personnel moves or whatever. And so They were looking for a tech-forward, younger, you know, they, this comes to the impact thing we were talking about earlier. I was gonna tell you is like they were looking for someone who's like younger, diverse, you know, impact, like, and, you know, they have guest speakers at their quarterly board meetings. We've had the CEO of DoorDash come, we've had the CEO of Instacart come. So I was one of the guest speakers. And then based on how that conversation went, they were like, we love this guy. Like he's St. Louis and he's really, so then they invited me to join the board.

Speaker on what?

My experience, I think, just in how the world's changing, how grocery might be changing. We talked a lot about, we talk a lot about e-commerce and, you know, most people, I don't know how you guys, you get your groceries, but it's still like e-commerce is actually pretty small penetration in grocery still, still only like 8 to 10% in most grocery stores. And there's a big opportunity for what that's gonna look like in 20 years or 30 years. But—

And you were imagining for them what that could look like and how they could do it and giving them ideas.

We talked about it. We talked about my experience with, Ampush and how that's relevant. You know, companies like Uber and Instacart were clients, like just trying to get to know me and then also my values and how I thought about things. And, you know, I think, I think that someone who's kind of left, left St. Louis and then come back with my pedigree and experience and they're like, oh, this is a pretty rare guy because he's, he's sort of got the pedigree, but he's also very St. Louis oriented.

Funny, you know that I'm obsessed with taking notes. So as you were listing all the things that you wanted out of this, I took notes. The one thing I left out was impact. And you said, that's very important. I'm gonna come back. And the reason I left that out is I thought, that's a nice thing to be able to offer them, but they're grown people. If they're not getting the impact, they can move on. Jesse needs to think about what he wants out of this. Why is impact one of the things that you want out of this and not just learning and, and other things that are more direct?

Well, 'cause my time, I, I wanna make sure my time is being used in a way that it creates value.

But why is that more, why isn't that more like, I wanna learn what a multi-billion dollar company's like, cuz I'm building a billion dollar company. I care about what I'm getting and they should care about what they're getting. And as long as they keep asking me for what they need and I keep telling them what I need, we'll come together. Why is it that one of the things that's—

Uh, I don't know. It's, it's just like, you know, when you talk to your kids sometimes and it feels like they have no idea, like they just don't listen to you. Mm-hmm. And you're not having any impact on them. You know how annoying that is?

Yeah. You know what I had? I had this, here's why I'm asking this question. Yesterday, you know, I was out for the day. A guy who runs a big event series here in Austin asked me to come and sit around a table with 12 other people and help out one of the people who was in his community. And so we sat there and it was, it was great, but I didn't wanna be there unless I had impact. And I wondered why. And in my mind, Jesse, it was because I didn't wanna waste their time. I didn't wanna sit there and look like a fool. And all my impact for them related back to me and my insecurities. And me and my not looking like a, like a failure for them in front of all these smart people who are, are gonna be successful. That's not your orientation. What is your orientation?

I don't think so. It's not even, I want my time to like be of, of value to serve people and things. And, and like, I like to show stuff for what I've done, you know, like if I did something, I wanna show something for it and make sure that it, there's a, there's something, you know, I, I said this to the CEO before. I, I said, I wanna know that in 2 or 3 years the company's different because I was in, I was on this board. If the company's gonna be the same regardless of me being there or not, what's the point? I got, I'm not interested in that. I wanna be a difference maker.

What part of you, what part of you gets satisfied by seeing that there's a difference?

All parts. I mean, I think that's why I'm an entrepreneur and I don't, I don't still work at Goldman, which is just another seat.

Yeah.

That I could be sitting in doing, you know, being another cog in a machine.

So what impact did you have? And then I'll get to what did you—

Well, the reason I think it's interesting to talk about is 'cause I think in the beginning, you know, I, I came in and this is part of one of my biggest learnings is like, as an entrepreneur, I'm like, all right, What metrics are we hitting? Like, you know, people at the marketing team would present or the— and I'd be like, hey, what's— when's this getting done? And I was very much using my entrepreneurial skill set of like, here's some good ideas and here's some like some urgency. Go, go figure this out, go get it done. And that's like not my place at all as a board member. And it probably was 2 or 3 years into it when one of the old— the brothers took me aside and he said, hey, You're— we are really lucky to have you in the room, Jesse, and you think in a way that none of us think. And that's a really valuable thing for us to have your perspective because it's, it's just without your voice in the room, we wouldn't think about those things. And it could be AI, it could be the way social works, it could be the way like consumers are buying things. But there's things that are like, I, I think that I like look around the room going, what are these people talking about? Like, I'll give you a specific example. There was a big debate once of like, hey, our e-com penetration's only 6 or 7% of our sales. Why are we talking so much about this? And that was kind of what one of the old guys said. And I was like, well, hold on guys, just 'cause our sales are 6 or 7%, that's not like what the consumers is. The consu— like all the dollars to e-com go to Amazon or whatever. Like we have to talk about it. That's the only place. And it was sort of this really interesting moment.

Yeah.

So it's interesting. I realize that, like, again, my job is, is it is being— and this, I think, is why older folks tend to do it versus somebody like me, because I think I'm still in a place where I want to, like, be involved in things and making things happen. But I think the idea of one simple redirection, it's kind of like being a manager and giving feedback. Like, one sentence you say or one little comment you give can really shift the trajectory of an entire organization. And that's a really, really impactful thing to have. Like, here's a funny example for you that you'll, you'll really appreciate. Like, you know, I'm a big fan of DFS, and believe it or not, they don't really— they didn't have DFS.

A desired future state for what?

Yeah, desired future state. They didn't say like, this is where we want to be in 10 years.

You mean as a company?

As a company.

Interesting.

They didn't have— and I was like, guys, how do we know what we're doing here if we don't have a— like, And I said, when I create companies, the first thing I do is I make a desired future state. And they were trying to be strategic and they had all the how and the principles, but that's now they have it. Now that's the thing. So it's like the whole company goes, you know, they have a goal when they turn 100, which is in 14 years. This is what we want the company to look like in 100 years when we're 100 years old. And so it's crazy to think that you can have that much leverage and impact in those situations, but the impact's very different.

Okay. Let's talk about what you learned, because you do come back and you say, I noticed this, I noticed that. And to me, a lot of it is, oh, I had no idea this company that is so old, that is basically selling gro— not be— that's selling groceries, has this kind of insight. And to me, that would be the big win, to be able to think bigger, because you're talking about big numbers every time you talk about them, and to have insight into something that seems so simple from the outside. What did you get that was exciting you this week?

Well, it's funny. I'll kind of take it in a different direction. I mean, there was a bunch of cool things. There's so many pieces of this. I mean, the trip was a board trip. The company just bought a business called Festival Foods, which is sort of like its twin in Wisconsin. And the way— what I mean by that is like the grocery— it's a pretty interesting business. Like if you go around St. Louis and the region that Schnucks is in and you do— they do survey customer surveys of like, what's your favorite grocery store? And if you do that in around this region of St. Louis, everybody says Schnucks. Not everybody, but like the majority say Schnucks. But sales, actually Walmart has the biggest grocery sales and Walmart's the largest grocer in America. And then Aldi actually has the second highest, then Schnucks. And that's very true in most regions, which is these 2 big cheap guys have the most, but there's always one other player who's kind of the hometown favorite. So their name is Festival Foods and they're the hometown favorite in Wisconsin. So I think there's probably, there's probably 2 big themes. I want to always want to think of a 3rd, but in terms of the business side of it, like their, the culture of this festival foods company was amazing. They have this concept they call the boomerang principle, which the founder of the company wrote a book about, which is they do all of their, and they announce it to customers. They do every action they take in the stores is to bring people back into the stores. And it's a really simple system. It's like, hey, everything we're gonna do. So, you know, if, if someone, they, they have a budget in their stores, for example, if somebody comes in and kind of like complains about something previously, they'll just, somebody can replace it right on the spot. Um, so they do all these things that are very customer-centric. They have daily standups like a startup. Literally the store has a daily standup. And so the, the, the one of the big learnings for, uh, for Schnucks, and even just it was a reminder for me, is like, How much culture is, it's not a thing you talk about, it's a thing you do. And the best cultures are do cultures. Like they're just the way people behave and show up. And if you're talking too much about culture, you're probably not doing it enough. And so that was like a really, really cool one. And then the second one was, was it had very little to actually do with the businesses, but I got to spend a lot of quality time with people who are probably 20 to 30 years ahead of me in their careers in terms of age and everything. And I was like, I found myself texting a small group of friends of mine, mostly from college and stuff, who are in their, you know, done really well in business. And I was like, there was just so many interesting takeaways. One was like, it really became very apparent to me how much of a stage having kids in your house is.

What do you mean?

Because all these people, their kids are all adults. And like, A, they all look back to it and go, man, yeah, it was so fun having the kids. Oh, like, oh, your kids, Jesse, how's that? Like, so that's number one. 2 is like, you know, we all have massive careers after our kids leave. Like, it really left me feeling like I wanna spend more time with my kids right now because man, they're gonna go. And then none of these people, even there was like, a 70-year-old dude, but he was like, he had as much energy as you or I do. And, and I'm like, damn, wait, I'm— that's gonna— that's 30 years for me. Like, it was really apparent how much you— how much of a sort of third act or fourth act or whatever you have, your third act after your kids leave, and how much more— I mean, they have an un— they have— it's kind of back to before, you know, you remember the time when you were married before you had kids, and now you look back on it when you have kids, you're like, God, I had so much. I had like a It was obscene how much time I had, right? I could go, I could travel anywhere on a dime. I could go out to dinner, but like they do, they're all living that life again.

I see where before you might've thought, look, once my kids are done, I'm also done and I'll get to retire and rest. And you're saying, no, actually it's like going back to the 20s. So if this is not the last run of Jesse energized and building, then I better fully take advantage of the fact that they're here because it's the last run of Jesse having 3 kids in the house who are—

Yeah. And that feels extremely finite, much more finite than the business career piece of this. So I think that was a big one. I think just seeing them, I think, you know, I think another one was just like, it kind of, it's a similar thing, but it's like they're all still doing business and thinking about it and they all, but they all have obviously done extremely well and they're like, you know, they're also like, they, it's funny, they talk like about all the same things you talk about on Twitter. Like what sauna are you using? And like what, you know, I'm building a new house or a beach house or whatever. Like, And you're like, yeah, okay, these guys are like all ballers. They're like, there is not that another, I guess maybe the way to say it is like, there's not that much more. There's nothing else different that they're doing or talking about than, than like, you know, my, my Hampton CEO Forum talks about vis-à-vis, vis-à-vis consumption, like houses and money and all that.

Like, there's not a next layer of, it's not like the flying car is available once you hit a certain number is what you're saying.

That's right. And, and so then you kind of, again, it sort of takes you back to like what matters and And even like, why are they still doing all? It's like, man, they want to be involved in interesting things. They want to like, they want to learn. They want to have impact like that. And it's not like I think I've for the longest time when I was younger really thought like when I would meet someone who'd made a certain amount of money and they were still working, I was like, I don't get it. Like I just I thought I would stop working at some point. And then you realize it and you're like, no, man. Like even this like seventy-year-old patriarch of the family who ran the company for fifteen years, now he's on he's not even on the board.

He's just a shareholder.

He's like. He still wants to be involved. It's still interesting, right? He's like, he was the most interested person on the store tours, like asking every associate how they spend their time and learning all about the grocery industry. And like, you know, it's, it's—

This is another thing that comes up for me. So here's a company, Festival Foods, has been surviving on its own for, let me see what year, since 1939 apparently. I don't know. Uh, it seems like it. No, maybe that's Schnucks. I can't tell. But a lot of these companies have been around forever. In New York, there's Key Foods, there's D'Agostino's. Here there's H-E-B in Texas. We were talking rollups in like AI and all this other stuff. Why isn't there a rollup of the whole supermarket industry at this point?

There are, they're happening every— I mean, Schnucks is doing one, right? That's why I bought this business.

But I would've thought that by now there would be really one big massive one, a couple of small mom-and-pop bodega style, like New York bodega style, but There are still regional players that are massive.

Yeah. I mean, look, you gotta start with the fact that it's a massive industry. I think it's like a trillion-dollar revenue industry, literally.

I bet equity's got a trillion. And I know that, by the way, that the government has stopped some of these. So it's not like an easy, easy thing.

Yeah. So that's part of it, right? I mean, like Kroger and Albertsons tried to merge. That didn't happen. So the government stopped that. I mean, there's some huge, there's like, Again, there's Walmart is the biggest. Amazon's gotten into the space through Whole Foods. Costco's huge in it. Then you got either Kroger or Albertsons, which are the bigger guys. But then yeah, you just got, I mean, it's crazy, right? Each of these stores are like little cash flowing businesses. Like they're doing any, a typical store does anywhere from $500K a week in revenue to $2 million a week at the high end of revenue. And, and like, you know, they'll do, they'll do real profit on that. So I don't know, there's a lot of humans that gotta eat food and like the—

I get that it's big. I, what I'm wondering is, are there certain businesses that really just don't lend themselves to rollups?

No, this is, this industry is being rolled up constantly. I mean, even, even a simple example, like Schnucks has bought, like people buy individual store. I mean, there's, There's examples in rural Missouri where there's some family that has 3 stores and then Schnucks will come in and buy it. So no, it's the consolidation keeps on going.

I'm curious of what if I was sitting in the office at GatewayX, what I would have missed recently.

Oh man, a lot.

Like what?

You know, we're spending a lot of time thinking about how to scale what we've done in the last 3 or 4 years. And as you know, we, you know, what we did the last 3 or 4 years was we basically came up with an idea or an opportunity. We found someone to partner with as CEO, and then Meenak and Adam would almost come in as the co-founding team and get the thing off the ground and then backfill it. Backfill with people. And I think in addition to that being a little bit painful for us because we almost went from like startup to startup to startup, like it wasn't super scalable. I think it was frustrating for people like you who are in the CEO seats kind of going, well, I got these people, they're half in, half out, and then they leave. And then, you know, and now you've got all this AI stuff and, you know, especially around the marketing landscape, which is what I know. And I'm like, man, this is gonna be a really big opportunity. I wanna start more companies and I wanna like, I wanna be, I want, I want to take advantage of this AI opportunity. That's a big one. The second one is like, I realize I want to be around lots of really smart founding type people all the time. And the hard thing that we've been spending a lot of cycles on is talent. How do you, how do you bring a lot of talented people in one area to start thinking about businesses and working on ideas? And especially in a city like St. Louis, which is not a, Uh, you know, not known to be the attractor of really smart, capable people. And I, you know, I went, I visited this place called South Park Commons about a month ago in San Francisco.

Mm-hmm.

And one of the things that I saw there that we're gonna, we're gonna use that I think is really compelling is, is like a membership model, like a community model where they'll bring you in to basically, you have to apply to be a member and then they'll say, oh, come in. Come in. Once you're a member, you get access to the space. They'll work with you on an idea. And then if they like, if everyone likes the idea, they'll actually put money behind the idea. But it's this really cool model where I think they call it the negative 1 to 0 model, which is like Y Combinator 0 to 1, let's say. But they basically get the people before the people have an idea on a business, which is sort of what we do in the studio today anyway. But I think there's a really compelling way to scale that. Um, and it's been fun to think about because I think for a long time I was like kind of avoiding the problem. I was like, well, I'm in St. Louis and, and then it's like the real problem is How do you get really talented, bright entrepreneurial people to a place like St. Louis? And I actually still don't know the answer, but like, I kind of feel energized by the fact of like trying to figure out how to solve it. And so we've been talking about how do you solve it? And we've got a bunch of ideas and, you know, it's just like any marketing or sales problem. You're like, okay, you've got the Knacks of the world and Knack married a girl from St. Louis and he's a really talented startup guy and he moved here and he just showed up and And he, I mean, I brought him in, but like there's probably 10 of him every year who we could have in this membership model. And then there's, you know, people who are from St. Louis who go to great schools. Like how do you get them attracted, right? You know, more outta college, like the old Jesses. Like how would you bring a Jesse back here from Penn? There are people like Casey who are really smart, who are C-level executives in companies in St. Louis and probably wanna start a business. So we're trying to, once you get the wheels turning on it, like any problem, you're like, oh yeah, there's this pocket of person and there's this pocket of person and And it can become a really exciting, fun, fun thing like anything to how do you solve that problem? And that's kind of where most of my time and energy has been going.

Most of those people sound like they're later in their careers. It's not like someone right out of high school or college who's going to build something.

No, I think some categories are and some aren't. I mean, I think out of school is a good category for sure. Like I said, the young Jesses, I think Like if something like this—

I didn't go to— what's the, what's the name of the local university that I see everyone in?

WashU.

WashU. You didn't go to WashU?

But, but a bunch of— but I did go to Penn and a bunch of people from St. Louis go to Penn every year. And like, like a, a dumb example, not a dumb example, a good example. There's a McKinsey office in St. Louis and there's like 3 kids who went to Penn and Harvard who came back to St. Louis to work at McKinsey. So there's enough really compelling talent, but it's fun to start to think about how do you actually bring, like, I feel like for the first time in my life, I'm actually solving a problem I care about, which is bringing a bunch of entrepreneurially talented people to a city that I love.

You know, I kind of wished I was just sitting there yesterday with all these people having great conversation. I was thinking, I wish a few years ago I would've done some kind of just Andrew hangout, an annual Andrew hangout with just, we're just getting together and we're not sitting and listening to presentations, but we're gonna hang out. It'd be a small curated group of people. I wonder if there's something like that that you are into to bring people from out of the state in to show them what, what there is. I don't know. I don't know if that's your thing.

I definitely will be for sure.

When you sent out, you put out a post that said, look, maybe instead of bootstrapping, I'm seedstrapping. That's the time when I really heard in my head what Jesse always says about how I am not, what's the word? I don't, I, my only dogma is no dogma. So even though the whole newsletter is about bootstrapping, it's like, let me talk to you about why I'm thinking about funding, fundraising. I still struggle with that to be able to look and the response is great. But I still, I still would struggle with that, with the idea of saying, hey, I just brought all you people into this way of life of thinking that bootstrapping is the thing. You're all here because of it. And guess what? Now I wanna talk to you about how I'm gonna do the exact opposite. How do you not feel like a fraud for having brought people over? Never mind momentum, just that.

I don't know. I just don't look at myself through other people's eyes for the most part. I just look at myself through my own eyes.

It's just— You feel like you're responsible? People are following you for direction? No, I don't.

No, I don't.

They don't, or you don't?

I'm just a guy saying things. I don't, you know, I'm not responsible for that.

You don't take it more seriously than I'm just a guy saying things? Because you're not an evangelist where I like to evangelize. Maybe that's a big part of it.

No, I evangelize things. I evangelize conscious leadership and I evangelize personal growth and I evangelize St. Louis and I— but, but it's all like, it's— I don't know, it's with a dose of humility of like, hey, this is my point of view. And if you can't change your own point of view, then, then what are you? I, I don't know. I'm just, my point of view changes a lot. I actually, I actually think it's a feature. Like, I think, I think if, if someone never changes their point of view, then it, then it's dogma. Then it's just like, oh, I believe this because—

Because I've always said it.

Yeah. It's like, uh, this is the way it should be and this is the only way I'm gonna be and, and I can't do anything else. And it's, it's almost like automatic at that point. It's not actually, you're not actually reconsidering your, your perspective. And I think, I mean, I've also, yeah, I mean, look, I think bootstrapping for your first company is really good. I think, I think, I think the biggest thing for all my stuff, as you know, is just being thoughtful about what you want and making sure you're aligning whatever you're doing to what you want. Like this new thing we're working on where we're gonna build this community in St. Louis and accelerator. Like when I first, I was talking to my brother about it and I was talking to some other people about it and they're like, well, you can't have the St. Louis thing 'cause that's, that's not gonna make it successful. And the more people would say that, that I was like, no, wait, like when they said it was actually helpful for me, I was like, no, wait, I want that. That has to be a part of it. And then it became so extreme for me that I was like, no, that is the thing we're doing. Like, I'd rather flex on the AI stuff than on the St. Louis piece of this. And then it became apparent to me like, oh, if I'm gonna go find people to put money in this thing, they really have to want this also. So it's like back to like, it's back to the sales accelerator. It's like your ICP. Like, I can't, I shouldn't go try to pitch like the California pension fund on this, right? Because like, what the—

Why is St. Louis so— and, and yes, if you are this firm about it, then other people who wanna see St. Louis grow are going to gravitate to this.

They're gonna be like, that's right.

But why, why are you so, so committed to St. Louis?

Well, I think the easy reason, there's a very basic reason I'm here.

But you can move, you could pick up and go.

You don't have to stay in St. Louis. I know, but, but Andrew, the one, the biggest frustration about our relationship is that you don't live here.

I get it.

And I need to start owning that more fully because I don't, I don't wanna be on a bunch of Zoom calls with founders. I'd rather put a bullet in my brain. I wanna be, I want them walking.

Why not move back to San Francisco? You met in San Francisco, your family's in California. Why not say—

Well, because, well, because I, I live here cuz I think it's a, it's a great city.

But you, you living here is not a permanent thing. It's just as temporary as you saying I'm running a Bootstrap Giants newsletter or Bootstrap Giants YouTube channel and switching it to CSUN.

It could be. Yeah. I just, I mean, my family, like I wanna raise my kids here. I think it's a great place to be. I think having people in a location like this matters a lot. It's funny, there's this company, there's this guy I met, you should check it out, called Brickyard. It's in Chattanooga, Tennessee, and it's a slightly different version than what I'm doing. He kind of does you like after your zero to one or like after you've done Y Combinator. So he's not formation stage, he's like sort of, he's like PMF stage is what he would say. And he literally is like in Chattanooga, Tennessee, He has a great office there. He has 20 teams at a time. It can't be more than 20. And they just hustle to get them to like focus on how to grow their business and get product market fit. And, and he's like, man, and if you read his site, you'll understand immediately. He's like, we're not for everyone, but the people we are for love this. And he's doing it because he wants to do it. Like, and, and like, you know, he's, and he, it was funny. He actually had a little framework that was really resonant for me. He's like, There's only a certain type of people who can do this. They like, you have to be a post-exit founder. You have to have the connections into Silicon Valley. You, you have to have moved back to the town. Like his version of it was just very, it was really inspiring because he's like, I am me and I'm unapologetically me. And if you want to do this with me, then I'm here. And if you don't, then God bless. That's not interesting. And I think it's a very similar kind of mindset. I think from my perspective, this is cam duty. Mm-hmm.

All right.

All right.

I know you gotta go. Thanks.

Thanks, Andrew.

Bye, everyone.

Bye.