Conversations, Commitments, and Safe Space

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much for joining us here at jlc, the Jorgensen Learning Center. This is an ongoing set of podcasts that are focused on relationships and results and how everyday leadership conversations can enhance the quality of your leadership conversations. Really happy you're all here. And I'd like you to see the people with me on this particular call. They are members of the JLC team. And I'm going to have Nicole introduce Colleen. You're on, Nicole.

Thank you, Ray. I'm privileged to introduce my colleague, Colleen Sullivan. She is a wonderful leader in the Jorgensen Learning Center. And my favorite part about working with Colleen is her willingness to just jump in and try anything new, any new ideas that will bring further our conversation on helping leaders to develop their everyday leadership conversations.

That's great.

Really enjoy working with you, Colleen.

Thank you. Colleen, how about introduce Julie for us?

Sure, absolutely. And thank you so much, Nicole. Appreciate it. So we also have here today Julie B. Wise. And Julie's worked with the Jorgensen Learning center for several years. I've had the absolute pleasure of working with her directly. And one of the things that I really appreciate working with Julie is see her frank and directness many times. She is. That is a. It's wonderful to be able to have that gift, to be able to speak directly to someone and especially she speaks directly to you. And it's always very insightful. So sometimes you really enjoy and embrace what she has to say, and sometimes you're kind of thinking, hmm, duly noted. Right. So pleasure to introduce Julie B. Wise.

We always need somebody like that in our lives. Julie, introduce my brother Vince.

I am excited to introduce Vince Starks. He has been retired Navy and Navy medicine in the nurse corps, and he loves to ride Harley Davidsons across the country. And the thing that I love about Vince is that he just reminds us not to take ourselves so seriously. He. He's always making funny comments and, you know, you're like, what? He's like, I'm just fooling with you, you know? So he always sort of reminds us to simmer down a little bit. Julie, you don't have to be so frank and so intense all the time. You can laugh and have a little bit of fun. That's what I love about Vince.

That's wonderful. So thank you all for being with us today. My name's Ray and I have a little role today. I'm going to facilitate this conversation, but the real wisdom is going to come out of the people that you see on your screen, people that you've been that you've heard about in the introductions. So let's move forward. Today we're going to really spend a little bit of time about the fact that professional conversations among knowledge workers are the key to success. Professional conversations among knowledge workers are a key to success. One of the reasons we do this work is we've been looking at meetings for, for years and years and years. We've either participated in them or we've led them and designed them. And we have found that without exception, if we don't spend a good bit of time designing the kinds of conversations we want to have in the meeting, we get in trouble. We don't get to the outcome that we want. This has been going on for a very, very long time. So the practice of designing and holding a conversation in safe space, safely, dangerous space, leads to high quality commitments and actions that help any team or any system move toward a desired result. So our interest today is in building some understanding about those three distinct concepts, conversation, professional conversation, safely, dangerous space, and commitments. Making this particular set of concepts come together is really what a leadership responsibility is in any meeting and for our state, you know, the way we think about meetings, it could be just me talking to Julie or me talking events, or they're leading us. Colleen could lead the four of us in a meeting. So a meeting could be one on one or one on many. This environment is an opportunity for you to see how these particular conversations can unfold as we practice our practice or as Colleen says, regularly eat our own dog food. We always stop and breathe after a few ideas are laid on the table. I did lay a few ideas on the table. So I'm going to ask my colleagues, and these are truly treasured colleagues, to tell me what they heard and what it meant to them. Vince, how about you start us off? What did you hear me say? What did that mean to you?

Sure. So what I heard was that there are many types of meetings that we can have. Some are one on one, and some can be as large as large groups. But the three kind of main components we want to really seek to understand to get a quality meeting, quality outcomes is you want to make sure that you can understand the point of having a good conversation. You create an environment of a safe, dangerous space to bring out the best ideas. And then the third component is to understand how to move forward, what your commitments are going to be, and how to create that environment so people are comfortable moving forward so you can work to achieve your overall outcomes.

Thank you. Vince, hand off to one of your colleagues and they can Extend.

Sure. I'd like to hand off to my colleague Nicole. Nicole, what did you hear? What are you thinking?

Yeah, thank you, Vince. What really resonated for me was talking about the role of the meeting leader to really to create the learning container for the people that you're in conversation with and to really be an architect of that safely dangerous space for people. So I'm really looking forward to the rest of the conversation to learn more about how we might do that.

That's excellent. Thank you. Hand off, please.

And I'll hand off to Julie.

Thanks, Nicole. I'll go the other way. Instead of the leader, I'm thinking of the participant. A lot of time participants show up to meetings and they don't engage. They actually are in other emails and text messages and that sort of thing until they hear something or until their presentation, and then they start to engage in the meeting. So this idea of a learning container where all of us are responsible for our own learning and the ownership is important to get a deeper understanding for. So I'm looking forward to that and I'll pass it on to Colleen.

Thank you, Julie.

Sure. I think the other part, just listening to my colleague Julie talk about that, it also made me think about many times in meetings in the sense of accountability and engagement. We don't. I'm going to sit back and I'm going to judge and I'm going to say, geez, really, Ray, this is. This is a horrible meeting. And I think many times what happens is, to your point, is when we're not engaged, when that space isn't safe, we start to detach and perhaps shift a little bit into judgment. So I'm looking forward to our conversation today and in ways that myself as a meeting leader or participant can ensure that I'm staying focused and involved, intentionally designing a space where everyone's engaged.

Yeah. I love it. Colleen, all of you, thank you so much. This sense of trying to figure out how to design a really useful set of brief, short conversations that help us get to an endpoint is critical. At the end of this particular discussion conversation that we're having right now, you will have a common understanding about the differences between a casual conversation and a regular leadership conversation. Conversation, an everyday leadership conversation, the distinctions between being courageous and actually have a safely dangerous space in which I can speak my truth. And finally, a deeper understanding about how commitments should come out of every briefing, every agenda item. Commitments need to live in those spaces, and each of you will know how to do that at the end of this particular piece. Thank you so much. Everybody, let me move us forward. Point one is about conversation. So right now, I want you to think about casual conversations you've had. And those of you in the audience, you have them constantly. Casual conversations happen all the time. We think they matter. And we are not asking you to use the normal casual conversation that you would have with somebody inside of a meeting structure here. We want to have a leadership conversation. So right now, I'd like you just for a minute to think about what is similar and what's different between a casual conversation and a learning conversation. What's similar and what's different between a learning conversation and a casual conversation. Nicole, start us off.

I think, to me, it comes back to the intention of the conversation. I think when we know we're going to be engaging in a learning conversation, we might position ourselves to listen differently, and we may also position ourselves to be more open to what we're hearing. I think in a casual conversation, where oftentimes, if someone stops us when we're in the middle of something else, we may give them a piece of our attention and not really take the time to really look, listen, or hear what someone is saying. I think about, as you said, that casual conversations that I have around my household, my kids asking me something or doing something, and I might just want to solve whatever they need and get on to my next thing that I was doing when they first approached me. But then if I know I'm in a learning conversation, I'm going to position myself differently.

I really like that a lot. That distinction is excellent. And I feel like I'm always getting drawn into casual conversations, and sometimes I play, sometimes I don't. If I'm doing this correctly as either a meeting participant or the leader of the meeting, I'm engaged. I want to be engaged. I want to practice listening. I want to practice suspending. I want to do the things that will enable this meeting and that particular meeting to hit its endpoint correctly. That's beautiful. Colleen, what are you thinking right now?

Yeah, I'm thinking about the similarities. And what I'm hearing in this conversation is a similarity, is being engaged. Right. And wanting to lean into both of those types of conversations. And a distinction Nicole laid on the table was sometimes in a casual conversation, you lean in a little bit differently and you're present a little bit differently than perhaps in a meeting. In a meeting, many times you're listening for, you know, what is my takeaway? What do I need to do? What is the information this person's laying on the table? So I can figure out how it impacts me and what I need to do differently or to do as a result of the information shared.

That's really nice. So notice you connected right, to the intention piece that Nicole laid on the table. How do we make sure that the intention is clear to everybody in the conversation? And the greatest meetings are a series of short focus conversations. So here we are modeling it for everyone right now. And notice how even if you're on a podcast and you don't see us, you should see them. They leaned in. As soon as I started to ask them a question, they leaned in. And as they lean in, all of a sudden their personal level of engagement just goes up. Excellent, Excellent. Thank you, Colleen. Julie, what are you thinking right now about the distinction between casual and these learning conversations?

When I think about engaging in casual conversations, I tend to show up with an intention more of speaking to entertain. Oftentimes I'll tell a story to entertain somebody. Oh my gosh, you would believe this. Or in the casual conversation, as I'm listening, I'm listening for connection, right? So, ooh, me too. I did that too. But when it's in a learning conversation, I tend to listen more and ask a lot more questions. Instead of listening to respond with a connected story, I actually listen to ask questions, inquiry questions, to further engage and to get a little bit more of what they're saying. So that would be a difference for the way that I'm listening in those two.

I love it. The distinction in listening, I think, is really at the forefront of this. Once we see the intention, we start to listen differently. And then I'm really trying to understand, right, what the leader is saying so that I can engage in a way that I can provide my own best thinking, my own best thinking to this meeting. That was great, Julie. Thank you. Vince, what are you thinking?

So from my perspective, as I listened to my colleagues, what touched me and what I'm reminded of is I had a boss who would often say, people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. And so just how you show up as a leader, whether it's a one on one conversation or within a group, your ability to create an environment that I am attentive and I care about what's important to you, creates that environment, leads you in a path. An example I would give for me personally is my daughter is completing college applications and she's working on five or six. And so every day she's been asking me casually, could I look over parts of her application, her essays, or I want to send an email to this university. And as I'm watching tv, my ability to stop what I'm doing and to turn and go, sure, tell me more. And just to listen to what was important to her and to help her. That casual conversation has turned into a leadership opportunity and engagement because it turned into a professional requirement she needed to meet. And so I was able to be aware that that's important to her and just to show up and let her know that I care about what's important and what's in her space, I think helped our conversation lead us from a casual beginning to a more formal overall outcome and conclusion.

Okay, that's really, really good. So here I start off in a little casual conversation with my daughter, and all of a sudden I'm in a learning conversation and I'm doing my best to acknowledge her and not multicast, by the way. That helps her feel like I'm in a safe space where I can tell dad what I'm really thinking right now. That's excellent. Very good. Very good. Point one, we have this sense of an everyday leadership conversation is a learning conversation. Vince's last comment, he shifted from a casual conversation while I'm watching TV into one where I am focused on your intent. All of a sudden, that becomes an everyday leadership conversation. From our vantage point, any leadership conversation is a learning conversation. We are trying to learn together. It's beautiful. Beautiful. Well, thank you all. Let's shift into point number two. As we think about point number two. I always think that people, you said to me growing up, you should be courageous. Well, what does that mean? Stick my neck out, be willing to fight, Go on, bully that guy, tell that woman what. On and on. Lots of coaching on how to have courage. I would like to talk about the distinction between courage and creating a space where it's a little uncomfortable, maybe, and it's a little dangerous, but it's safe enough to say what's truly on my mind. So the provocation is easy in your mind, what's the difference between a courageous conversation and a conversation held in safely dangerous space? And if you could come up with an example of that, that would really be useful. Julie, why don't you start us off?

So I'm thinking of my meeting that I had last night with a client in Japan. And I had listened to several meetings and I needed to give them feedback. And so I needed. There wasn't really much learning to be had other than I needed to be courageous, to say what I felt was the truth. The way it occurred to me and I wasn't looking for them to argue with me or give me a different perspective. It was a one way informational providing conversation. That to me took a lot of courage and I still did at the end invite any sort of feedback, you know, that they may have. So there was still a space for that. But for me entering it, it did not feel safe. But that's sort of. I signed up for that in a way. Right? Yeah. So that's what I'm thinking of.

I love it, I love it. So they wanted feedback and the courage required is to give the feedback. And I noticed that the way you said it, by the way, I really like this is my truth. It may not be their truth. And in the work that we've done and if you follow some of our other work, truth is a moving target. What I think is true today, by the way, in 2021 may not be true next year. And what I thought was true five years ago, not true today. So things do shift and change. So I love that and the desire to shift from I'm courageous, going to say what I'm thinking and then I practice the disciplines to make the space safe enough to receive feedback, to create that feedback loop, to close the loop. That's really good. Very good. Vince, what are you thinking?

So I guess I want to touch the other domain, the other aspect of that, which is a safe space. And I think that one of the things that it does still take a lot of courage as a leader to do within a group is to be vulnerable. If you really want people to come across and to really feel safe and comfortable. Typically as a boss you want to know everything and you want to have the answers and sometimes you don't. And the ability to go and stand before your people and at the table now openly and say, you know, folks, I don't know what the right answer is. I don't have the solution and I need your help so that I believe as a leader you have to have courage to help set the environment or set up the safe space environment. Sometimes that means you being vulnerable very openly and very publicly.

So that's fantastic. And you know, Brene Brown always tells us out of vulnerability comes incredible energy, creativity, just the ability to motivate self and others to move forward. I think it's phenomenal and to constantly tell people, I really do want to know what you're thinking. This is all about tapping into collective wisdom. That's brilliant. Thank you. Nicole, what you thinking?

Yeah, I'm thinking about A conversation that I had with a leader I was working with, and he was brand new to his role and was looking to understand some of the dynamics that were occurring in his department. And it could have been very easy for me to gloss over some of the things that I had learned and noticed within that business area because I didn't know this person. And the courageous part is being willing to say what is authentically my truth, what I saw, what I observed about the issues that he was coming into as a brand new leader. And that conversation ended up going really well. I did take that step of being courageous and saying, all right, here's where I'm seeing the real issues in your business area, and these are things that you are going to have to address in a really sensitive way. And he really appreciated that. And I think what that did, like Vince, was saying it was vulnerable for me to share that with somebody who I didn't know very well. We didn't have safe space yet, but being vulnerable, being courageous in that moment, open up a space where we had, you know, it was that first step in that safe space, safely, dangerous space that we had moving forward in that relationship to be open and honest about what we were really seeing and observing in that space.

Fantastic. So as the leader or the colleague or the participant, it doesn't matter if you acknowledge the other person's thinking and you acknowledge the truths that they bring to you as their truths and being real and ask those questions like, tell me more or I don't quite get that. What's going on with you? All of a sudden, that space starts to get safer and safer. And this is not a silver bullet. This is something to practice discipline. Practice produces progress in building safe space. That's beautiful. Thank you. Colleen, put a bow on this one.

Absolutely. I think you've heard a lot of really good examples of individual courage, having the courage to speak your personal truth. And Julie gave a great example of doing that in the space of executive coaching and providing feedback, as did Nicole. And I think that's where it begins. But that's focused on an individual. So if each of us, whether we're meeting participants, whether we're leading the meeting, but we have the courage to speak our personal truth, that will begin to develop this other piece, which is this dangerously safe space, because that, from my perspective, is focused on the collective or the team. So each of us, if we can individually speak courageously and not in a disrespectful way or disparaging way, but we're speaking our truth, this will develop this safely dangerous space and will intentionally create the space where now everyone else is seeing the courageous conversation, and then it really almost produces. We always take trust. Right? So now with the safely dangerous space, I'm creating a space and an environment of trust within my team.

I really like the way you added trust into that. Nicely. If I don't practice this work in the way we are doing right now, where we acknowledge one another, we respond respectfully, and we look to make sure we understood each other's perspectives, that trusting safe space disappears. That's really excellent. Thank you. Thank you all. Last point we're going to make. First point was all about conversations and what are learning conversations and what are professional conversations. And so from our vantage point, the professional conversation is an everyday leadership conversation which practices learning conversation guidelines. Second one, it's our job as leaders to produce and sustain safe space. And these were examples of it as we were unfolding. This whole conversation is about courage and safe space together. It's not one or the other. Finally, we're shifting into the last place about promises and commitments. So I'll make this transition by making a statement that the five of us have said to one another many times. The definition of a professional is someone who makes a promise and keeps it in the best interest of their client, colleague, or daughter, to Vince's point. So it's all about making sure that if I make a promise, I will complete that promise. That is the definition of a professional. So in our final piece, I'd like you to tell me a little bit, just a little bit about where you can talk about personal, committed actions. And, Vince, I'm going to start with you, and I'll tell you why you and your daughter had a conversation that produced commitments. And I'll let you. You can lead us off, and then I'll go to the rest of the gang, talk to me about the commitments that unfolded as a result of the college application process.

Sure. So I asked my daughter to commit to certain parameters in selecting colleges and universities that she wanted to go to. And if she did that, which my parameters were to look at a variety of things that met certain criteria. And I told her she did that, my commitment is I would help her with that process and I would fund that process and I would ensure that she met her ultimate outcome. And so she has done the things that she is that she said that she would do. And I have been working diligently to honor my commitments to each one of those things. And so whenever she's asked a question, no Matter what I'm doing, I pause, I engage, I give her my undivided attention, and I work to solve whatever that issue is to ensure that she completes that process. And so now we're down to number six out of six. Hopefully we'll have it done today. And that will be a successful engagement to that commitment that I made and to, you know, she's met the grade, she's met the requirements, she's at everything I've asked her to do. And so I've been working to meet that commitment, as I said that I would do.

Yeah, that's beautiful. So here's a situation where you established what was necessary for success, and you each have committed actions that are unfolding. And in your mind, she's completed most of hers. Right. That's cool. So, Nicole, how about you? Commitments?

I think it's making me think about, well, a Vince, I'm going to be tapping into you as my son prepares for that process a year from now. So. So I'm going to learn from you in that space. And it's making me think about kind of two levels of commitments. One is a commitment to how I show up with the people that I care about and the people that I lead and the people that I serve. Kind of back to our first part of the conversation. Those intentions. Am I being my authentic self? Am I really listening to understand, Am I leaving judgment at the door? Those kind of commitments that are so fundamental to having a quality conversation and a quality relationship. And then on top of that, it's just doing the things I say I'm going to do, like being, you know, taking the task, the tasks that I've said that I'll complete, and those commitments that I've made to my people, whether that's my sons or whether that's this team, and then really following through on those commitments. So I think those two things are really important for me as I think about committed action.

I love it. So committed action to self in order to engage and create a space where other people can meet the expectations. That's magnificent. I think that's really good. And remember, ladies and gentlemen that are listening, the conversation is the relationship. The greater the quality of the conversation, the greater the relationship, and that's what's unfolding. So, Colleen, what are you thinking about right now?

Sure. I think the conversation around commitments makes me think about a lot of the work with our clients. Right. Over the past, you know, 12 years, I've been working with clients, and they'll be like, hey, you know what? I really don't feel like we're getting anything done in our meetings. And I'd be like, all right, well, let me listen in and let me. Let me, you know, just kind of observe. And it was interesting when I was like, well, wait a minute. You know, I heard committed action surface in this meeting. I'm not quite sure if anybody wrote them down. And my wondering is, if nobody wrote them down, how are you going to loop them through to the next meeting? So to me, I went to follow up because sometimes they're like, well, we need to increase accountability. Is there like an app for that? And I was just like, well, if there is, I don't know. However, to me, when I think about promises and I think about accountability and I think about follow up and follow through, because a lot of our clients, they're all about results, execution, getting her done. Absolutely. So if that is one of the things that you're focused on, my invitation is to consider in your everyday leadership conversations, how are you surfacing the promises of the team and moving that forward to the next conversation to ensure execution and completion.

I love it. Yeah. And that sense of not letting meetings live in isolation, not letting conversations live in isolation. So, you know, I'll pick on Vince again when he has to go back to his daughter and say, so how'd you do? Well, I didn't mail him or I left it out. Then how'd you do, dad? Well, I think I can do it, but I'm not. You know, it all starts to waffle unless we close the loop outbound. It's really, really good. Thank you, Julie. End this one for us.

So to end this, we don't want to forget the fact that when we make a commitment, we are still honoring our commitment if we notice that we can't keep the commitment. And so one of the biggest things that I've been teaching my clients and for myself was the instant you realize that you're not able to follow through with what you said you were going to do, the instant you tell everyone who's involved, not just one person, you don't hide and wait a week until the due date and say, I'm sorry, I owe it to you. This is what happens. It's the instant you notice it. And so that was always the trouble for me as a mother and a working professional was I'd agree to certain things, and then my kid would get sick, and then I'd feel like I was letting the professionals down, or vice versa. I would agree to something with my kids, and then A client really needed me, and so I felt like, forget it. I can't be a mom and a professional. I'm only going to do one. And that's not true. You can commit and you can change as long as you say the instant I need to change this. What can I do to make it up to you? What does it look like moving forward?

I love it. I love it. And there's a sense here, too, about what you just laid on the table. Julie, my number one rule as a leader was no surprises. Don't surprise me. Don't tell me you're going to do something, then wait two weeks and I go looking for it. And two weeks ago, you couldn't get it done and you knew it, but you never told me. So either I was not creating safe space or I hadn't had the right kind of conversation. So this is a great example of using this work around commitments to follow operating principles that enable leaders to be successful. That's beautiful. Well, ladies and gentlemen, I hope you enjoy the conversation. We've come to the end of our podcast and we always close with the same thing. Give us one thing that either surprised you or resonated with you during this conversation. One thing that surprised you or resonated with you. Nicole, you start us off.

I really loved what Julie just shared and said about making it a practice to be able to say, and this requires safe space as well, to be able to say, I can't meet that commitment. I just realized that there's no way I can meet this deadline or something came up for me and I'm not going to be able to meet this commitment. But how can we move forward from here? That's such an important conversation to have. So I just. That really resonated with me, and it just reminded me of how important safe space is to be able to have these committed actions and conversations as well.

That's great. That's great. Vince, will you build on that?

Sure. So what resonated with me today was as professionals and the people who listen to us as well, you know, we all know the right things to do. We've all experienced and done a lot of these things that we're talking about. What we're talking about is not magical, but it is powerful because even though we know these things, the power of being able to talk about it and to hear it and hear these principles and to refresh our knowledge base is what was powerful. So I just listened throughout this podcast and I heard a lot of very powerful reminders of the things that you should be doing and thinking and engaging in as a leader, whether it's personal to yourself or to the team. And so that was very refreshing today for me. And I'm out.

Thank you, brother Julie.

The thing that resonated with me is what Vince said as he made a commitment, but he was waiting for his daughter to do the work and come to him. And that, I think, is one thing that as leaders, sometimes we get. I know I do. We get caught up, and we are the one that's going to them. Did you do it? Did you do it? Did you do it? And it's much more powerful when you create the commitment and then you give them space to get it done. And that's what resonated with me. So thanks, Vince, for sharing that.

Beautiful. Thank you. Thank you, Colleen.

Yeah, I think that throughout our conversation today, the theme, they were all examples, great examples of the critical importance of very intentionally developing and sustaining dangerously safe space. Because that element is key. And a lot of people, they don't really think about it very intentionally. And so today, I think there's been a lot of really good examples. And to Vince's point, what surfaced when he was making his final comments, this isn't brain surgery. These are a lot of things that people are going, oh, yeah, that's right. Oh, my gosh, I forgot about that. So we say this is common sense, not necessarily common practice. So how can we be very intentional about sustaining and developing and sustaining this dangerously safe space and amount.

So, ladies and gentlemen, I hope you have fallen in love with my team like I have in the past. They are just magnificent human beings and I think a rich conversation. If you want to learn more about leadership conversations, everyday leadership conversations, safely dangerous space, and the ability to really follow through on personal commitments and to help teams develop those capabilities, please Visit us@gojlc.com All of us will look forward to hearing from you. Thank you so much for listening and good luck in all that you do. Sincerest thanks for listening to this episode.

Of the Everyday Leadership Conversations podcast. The Jorgensen Learning center offers a variety of programs for individuals and organizations to enhance their communication and leadership skills. To find out more about programs and upcoming webinars, check out our events page@gojlc.com.