Feedback Can Be the Breakfast of Champions

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Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for coming to your computer or your iPhone or Android device or wherever you are right now to listen to our podcast. And if you're interested in watching these extraordinarily beautiful people, not including me, you can hop on YouTube and watch us. This is JLC Media and we're moving forward with our everyday leadership conversation focus. And pretty much what that says is that every conversation is an opportunity for leadership and it happens in all of our everyday leadership conversations. We're kind of excited about this one and I'll set up why we're excited after I let everybody introduce themselves. So real quick though, let's who's who out there. Nicole, who are you?

I'm Nicole Lyons. I am excited to be here with you all today. I work with the Jorgensen Learning center as a leadership communications coach and also our strategic marketing and branding director. And looking forward to our conversation today.

Excellent. Thank you, Terry.

Yeah, I'm Terry Moulton. I'm a retired two star medical service corps officer from the United States Navy and I'm part of the JLC team and I enjoy being a part and sharing leadership conversations and learning as I go. And glad to be here.

Thank you very much, Colleen.

Yeah. So Colleen Sullivan worked with, been a leadership communication coach for about the last 12 years. And it's just a pleasure to be here with all of my friends and colleagues.

Cool. My name is Ray Jorgensen. I have the privilege of founding this company, but that's really not the biggest. I have the privilege of hanging out with these people. These are magnificent people that are excellent leadership communications coaches. And if anybody out there that's listening says, you know, I could use some help with that, give us a ring. These are the folks that can help you. And we have a number of folks and we have been working in this arena for a long, long time. And we look forward to today's conversation. Today is about feedback. The second we say feedback, many people, including me, cringe. Somebody says, ray, I want to give you some feedback. And they clap their hands as they tell me that. And I'm like, I don't want to have this conversation. I'm not sure this is really going to go where I want to. So today we're going to invite those of you that have had that experience with feedback to think of it this way. One of the gentlemen that taught me to be a high school basketball coach told me that feedback from the kids is the breakfast of champions. And of course, that playoff with the Wheaties box at that time. I am so old. That was the right playoff at the time. And that sense that if we really build a relationship with somebody that's safe, they will tell you things that are sometimes hard to talk about. So today we're going to do a little bit of practice on what do we do? How do we actually create that safe space so that people can say what's on their heart at the end of this? If you follow one or two, and just one's enough, by the way of the practices that we're going to share with you, I believe that you'll take something away from this that you could put in practice almost immediately. Feedback is the breakfast of champions. Colleen, what are you thinking and what are you hearing me say?

Sure. What I'm hearing you say is that, you know, when people talk about feedback, people get the mega cringe, and I do, too. And with a lot of the clients that I've worked with, instantly people go into, hiya, defensive mode because they feel like they've got to brace themselves. Right. And so, you know, it sounds like we're going to talk about what are some ways that perhaps we can shift kind of our thinking around feedback so it's not just really focused on the negative and we don't have the mega cringe because it is critically important, as you mentioned, the feedback of champions. If I'm not open to listening for feedback for not only myself, but actually throughout the organization, how am I going to know what's really going on? How am I going to get any better?

That will definitely impact your leadership presence if you're unable to really hear what's happening as you're trying to move the system forward to accomplish desired ends. Thank you so much for that, Colleen. Terry, what did you hear? What are you thinking?

What I really took away from that, and I really like that phrase. Feedback is the breakfast of champions. And, you know, in my management style, I really, you know, I key on feedback and closing the loop, you know, did you hear what I said? Are we doing what we said we're going to do as a team and then monitoring how we're doing that along the way. So I think it's really, really good. Feedback is so important.

So I love that. And those of you that are listening, there's a little connection issue with Terry's microphone right now. It'll clean up, I'm sure, as we go forward. I had the privilege of watching that gentleman close the loop when people. When he finished an agenda item and he was. It was his meeting, so he was leading the meeting. He finished an agenda item. He made sure that he heard from people, what were they going to do? What is their commitment to action? And here's the part that was just stunning to me. Next meeting, he opened the meeting up with checking. You guys made some promises last time, and I'm not here to check on you. I'm here to find out, how did you do? What do you need from me? Do you need a resource? It was almost. It created such an incredible moment in those meetings once people realized he wasn't here to give you feedback and check on you and knock you around because you didn't do it. And the belief that they made a promise and they were doing their best to keep it, and they need something from him. Not, I'm here to bang you in the head for not getting something done. Just keep the game alive. This is probably how this little group that we have here is very different than other people that are writing about meetings and do these meetings better. The little techniques really hold us in a space of professionalism. A professional makes a promise and keeps it in the best interest of their colleague or client. It is a very, very powerful sentence, one we can hang on to. Nicole, how about you? What were you thinking as we unfolded this opening piece?

So what really stuck out to me is you first started talking about as children, feedback is the breakfast of champions. And I'm just wondering in my mind that point at which feedback. We learn that feedback is bad. And so I'm just kind of thinking in that space for myself, where did I first experience feedback as being bad? And where did I pick up that mindset that when somebody's going to give me feedback, I should feel that old, hey, we need to talk. And immediately you start catastrophizing, what did I do? What's going to happen? What are they going to tell me? And I think that at some point, right back when we were kids, we were constantly getting feedback and it was, okay, we appreciate it. But at some point, maybe in school, maybe with someone, we worked with a parent, we discovered that, no, we don't want this thing called feedback. We do not want to hear what someone else has to say about what we're doing as individuals. And I think it's so important as leaders to think about our approach and our intentionality in those conversations when we want to solicit feedback from others, and we only want to give feedback to others. I'm curious where our conversation will go today. I hope we get to talk a little bit about good ways that we can provide Feedback and solicit feedback.

I think we'll give it a run. And the piece that you just laid on the table. As a teacher for many years in the public and private school systems in America, my early days as a teacher was to identify what did this kid do wrong? And use either red pencil or some kind of highlighter to let them know where they screwed up. Eventually, I went through a series of personal development exercises where we learned very early in school that smiley faces and stars are the beginning of trouble, because now we're trying to give people a smiley face. You did good, but the kid next to you didn't get one, so how's he doing? Or I got two stars, but I only got one. How am I doing? And this is interesting where with great intention, great positive intention, and great interest in helping somebody develop, we sometimes create a negative mental model about the idea of feedback and feedback on something you have just done. For example, I really feel like we're in an interesting place. I'll see if I can do an example and then let you, Nicole and Terry, feedback. So I'm going to do it with Colleen, and you'll see me set the stage for feedback. And there's a couple of things I'm going to do, which I'll review at the very end of the podcast, that sometimes really helps us embrace conversations that can be a little bit challenging. Because whether we like it or not, most people have been brought up in the school systems that we know. And in truth, when I worked in Europe and. And in the Middle East, I had exactly the same experiences. I went to North Africa to do a presentation one time, and the presentation was all about, how do we help young people not be frightened by their teachers because they would be fearful that they would bring home a bad grade or a bit. Well, what does that create? That creates a mental model. And if I sanction my thinking and say, gee whiz, I'm going to get in trouble for what I did, I start to become anxious and fearful about feedback in any form. So thank you all for that. And if anyone has a final thought, I'm going to launch into a quick role play with Colleen. So, Colleen, you are you just be you. Let's do our group. Okay.

You sure?

Yeah, I think so. We'll find out. We'll find out. Colleen, the reason why I wanted to talk with you today is you had a consult last Friday that you were anxious about, and you chatted with me about that consult. What I'd like to do today is develop a common Understanding with you about how you found a way to assess your effectiveness for what you did that day so that at the end of this, each of us knows what to do with moving forward. That will help your next consult be even better than the last one you just did. What are you hearing, Colleen, and what are you feeling and thinking?

Sure. Well, what I'm hearing you say is we're going to have a conversation about my consult from last week and that we're going to talk about, you know, how to go, what was perhaps some of the evidence, or how do I know that it went well, or perhaps, you know, well, I'm already shifting to or, and there might be areas of improvement. So by the end of our conversation, we are going to. We will know. We will have a common understanding of how it went. And also there'll be ways for me moving forward into my next consult to.

Be more effective and for me as the person providing a little bit of feedback to figure out, what do you need? Is there a resource you needed that you didn't have that either I didn't know you needed or I failed to provide? So it's for both of us to learn about moving forward. So let's just shift slightly from that. So that's. If you're listening to us on the podcast. I just did something called a cpo. This is why we're talking. This is what I hope we understand together, and this is what I expect each of us to do moving forward. If you're really working this stuff with us, you'll start to see this as a very simple and not easy at first way to do this. You have to just work on it. So we just did a CPO to start the game. Let me switch to Terry and to Nicole. Why don't you both talk a little bit about what you saw me do just then and just talk with each other about that. Nicole, what did you see me doing? You and talk with Terry about that.

I think right away you created clarity for the conversation so she knows why you're talking in the first place. That might put at ease any of that tension she feels about having this conversation with you because she knows why you want to talk and what the intended outcomes are for the conversation.

Thank you, Terry.

Yeah, same thing. I heard some key words there. Let's have a conversation where we want to achieve a common understanding of what did you learn, and then let's assess for yourself how do you assess the effectiveness of you of what your consult was all about? Then how do I develop an action Plan for a way forward. Then Colleen was talking about this evidence. What was the evidence that things went well or not? And then what could I do differently for my next consult?

Beautiful, Terry. Thank you. Both Nicole and Terry. Colleen, did that land on you in a similar way, or do you have more to add?

Yeah, I think very similar. I felt setting the stage is important. You didn't dive into the conversation. You set the stage. The second piece that's resonating with me just from the feedback from my colleagues is. Well, it's feedback. We've just modeled it. Feedback isn't always just based upon your performance. This right here is feedback. This is feedback for the meeting leader to ensure the person I am having a conversation with is on the same page. It's another way to have feedback. So I just wanted to make sure that we articulate that, because a lot of people just think it's about how well I did. Oh, it's a performance evaluation. You're going to give me some feedback? Yes. And feedback comes from. Are my words landing on people in the way intended? Do we have a common understanding of expected outcomes? So I think this is a great modeling of that practice.

You said it beautifully, and I can't do it any better. Every time you start a conversation, Ray.

I would add one more thing.

Go ahead, Sarah.

Yeah, I would add one more thing. The other part, you as the senior in that conversation, you were trying to identify, well, what resources could I bring forward to support her in her consultation? Is there something out there for that? I think that, too, is very important. As a senior leader, you know, you want to be able to do that.

And I can't do that without awareness. So a lot of what will happen in this conversation is Colleen will let me know how things went from her vantage point and to find out whether or not she may have been missing something that I could have provided, but we didn't know. And now we're going to learn and see if there is something more we can do for the next one. That was really good, Terry. Thank you. And to Colleen's point, what we're doing here, even just with Terry, I just did feedback. With Terry, I acknowledged what he said, I confirmed that I understood it, and I responded in a way that moved the conversation forward in a respectful manner. That's key. Respond respectfully. It builds more and more safe space. And I've been saying this now for about two months. At the heart of this conversational leadership work, everyday leadership conversations, if you can develop your own personal mastery around acknowledging a human Being confirming you understood and then responding respectfully. That's at the heart of the work, and it builds space for people to feel safer and safer with you. So they're not expecting you to show up in judgment. I'm showing up in a collaborative way where I want you to believe I trust you and the space is safe. So this is the modeling that just happened in the opening was really pretty cool, I think, for folks that might be listening and saying, well, how do you do this? You just do what Colleen just did. And Nicole and Terry beautifully described what they saw unfolding in the moment. So we started the meeting, and I provided feedback, awareness. So we had a common understanding about what the intention of this meeting is to be. Well done. Those of you that are listening, there's a second space we go to, and I think we're going to probably stop there. So you have two things you can grab onto. The second thing you can do once you create an intention. Right. We created an intention. Here's the second thing you can do. So, Colleen, back and roll. So, Colleen, as soon as I said we're going to talk about what you did last week, I'm assuming, like most people would, they're saying, I hope I did okay. I hope Ray thought it was all right. And all that stuff has a tendency to start boiling up. So I want to now make sure that you don't have anything going on inside your mind or in your heart that's making you feel like we can't continue. I'm anxious, I'm nervous. I'm waiting for Ray to say something judgmental about me. I'm just wondering right now, are there anything inside of you that we need to temporarily clear so we can move forward?

Well, honestly, I just don't want to disappoint. Right. I go out on the road, I'm meeting with clients, and I am representing jlc, and everything is reputation and word of mouth. So the last thing that I want to do is disappoint you or disappoint my colleagues. So that is the first thing that I honestly, when I walk away from any consult or conversation, I'm just like, oh, my God, I hope I was good enough. I hope I met the mark.

So how are you going to deal with that while you're talking with me today? Because I recognize that could really freeze you.

Well, I think a big part of it is at least I surfaced it right? So I shared it with you, which at least lets me get it off in my mind. So I'm not kind of Just keeping it buried so I think I can surface it and temporarily just push it aside in knowing that I'm here to reflect and to learn.

That's beautiful. And I would invite you then to practice that as you work with me. If that rises again, tell me. If you start to feel anxious as though I'm in some judgmental place about your behavior, let me know. All of us, when we go to work, we give what we currently have. We give our best to our client. Sometimes things work out, sometimes they don't. And it isn't because we had a negative or bad intent. It's just things didn't go the way we thought. Those of you that were listening, that was the second stage in a conversation where feedback can be the breakfast of champions. Intention surface and clear potential obstacles that would stop Colleen from hearing our conversation any longer, but sit there in her own mind and work on her own thoughts and. And be probably more in judgment of herself than I ever would be. So this is just a chance to clear what might stop her from staying in learning. Terry, what are you thinking right now?

Yeah, I really appreciate the surfacing. What her concern was right up front and then you really creating a safe space for her. Right. And so now she surfaced it, it's off her chest, she can focus on the rest of the conversation, and you helped her with that. And so that's a good feedback for her in this conversation.

Love it. Terry and I also, on purpose, very deliberately didn't fix it. And if you're not careful, because we care so much about the people we lead, we'll say, oh, don't worry about it, Colleen. No, no, that's not what I said to her at all. I said, what are you going to do about this? So that you can come back into convers. Terry. Great point. And those of you listening, please notice I didn't fix it. You know, I don't want her to live in that victim world of her own making where I'm going to show up and rescue her. No, Colleen, what are you going to do about this moving forward? Simple, simple, simple. But, my God, that it has incredible adult intent. This is an adult to adult conversation. It's not the old transactional analysis, parent to child. I'm the parent, so I'm going to make you feel better and then move forward. No, I respect and unconditionally love you, Colleen. What are you going to do about this? Not what will I do about it. Thank you, Terry. Thank you. Nicole, where are you on this?

I keep thinking about how this Conversation. The success of this feedback conversation begins way before this conversation. So if you're coming in here and you're like, all right, yeah, I want better feedback conversations. And I want to jump into our monthly one on one where I'm going to give you some feedback on your performance and start this practice, I would encourage you to pump the brakes a little and go back to thinking about your everyday interactions. Because this kind of relationship, this ability to be able to be vulnerable in a space of feedback begins with the conversations that you have every day. Whether that's on text message, instant message, in every connection that you have with the people that you lead in your team meetings. The way that you respond, the way that you show up in a place of judgment or learning is going to affect these feedback conversations. Because people remember how you, you know, what you said to someone when they gave some feedback in a meeting, did you shut it down? Did you say, yeah, but we've done that before. It's going to take some intentional practice for you as a leader to be aware of the way in which you show up in every interaction to develop that safe space and trust. So start small. If you're hearing this conversation and you're like, yeah, I want feedback conversations like that come back to yourself and say, where am I at in my everyday conversations? And am I laying the groundwork and setting the stage for safe space and.

Trust and vulnerability, that's just brilliant, Nicole. So really, those of you that are listening, this didn't just start today with Colleen and I. We have been doing this for years. And that ability to really hear somebody confirm that you really got them, like, I just. I'm doing with Nicole right now, and then respond respectfully to make sure I don't miss anything. And this is not like, here's a box of tricks for you to use or some pixie dust. That's not what it is. Every time you're on the telephone, every time you're in a chat, when you write an email, there's an opportunity to set the stage, create an intention, and then make sure that the person that's hearing what you're saying is able to feed back to you. Feed back to you. This is what I heard you say you wanted me to do. And did I understand that correctly? Oh, my God. This is. And Terry, how many times did we do that standing around at the end of each one of those big meetings that we had? Brother.

Oh, yeah, No, I think so, too. I think one of the big takeaways that sort of makes me go Back is you said you didn't fix it. Right? And we, as leaders, we want to fix it all the time. And so we have to be careful as leaders. Don't just jump in and fix the problem. Let them help them to resolve the problem. That's where the resources come in or helping talk through it. And achieving that understanding, it's so valuable as a senior leader.

See, at some level, I am playing the role of a broker of resource when I don't fix it. Because now I'm inviting the person who I think is brilliant already and can solve most of her own problems to figure out, how am I going to deal with this? I'm not going to do that for you. This was a good one. We're about out of time. Biggest takeaway. And what would you invite? And you all did this beautifully. Tell the people listening. Here's one thing I would recommend that you consider moving forward. Biggest takeaway, One thing to consider. Colleen, you want to start us off?

I think my biggest takeaway is the quality of the relationship is key for any of these things, right to Nicole's point, you just don't jump in. And I'm going to start this now. And I haven't talked to Terry in six months because from my perspective, he's really not pulling his weight. But now I'm going to just have this great conversation. Well, you got to put in the work. You don't just get off the couch and go run a marathon, right? This is about every day, how you are intentionally are developing the relationships. So one thing to consider is, is. Is that right? How are you every single day continuing to enhance and develop the quality of the relationships with not only those you lead, but in every interaction every day? And I'm out.

Relationships come from conversations. The quality of the relationship comes from a quality, everyday leadership conversation. And we modeled it today. You modeled it for me, and I hope I modeled it for you guys. The simplest thing you can do to build safe space is to acknowledge what the person said, confirm you understood, and respond respectfully. Every iteration of that builds more and more and more safe space. But I would say this to all of you that are listening. You F that up once and it's going to come back and haunt you. You roll your eyes in a meeting or you. You make somebody's thinking wrong in a meeting, that will haunt you. It's, by the way, okay to say sorry. It's okay. Sorry. Didn't mean to do that. Because we are human and we live this life in real time. This is not bullshit time, it's real time. Terry, what's your biggest takeaway and what would you tell somebody?

Yeah, I think my biggest takeaway, I appreciated the conversation and then the learning from that. And I think practice, right, and being aware, your self awareness of where you are in a conversation is very important. And then practice these techniques that we're talking about today. Don't be a fixer, but be able to have development or have and develop this quality conversation and achieve that common understanding and to be able to help staff and people go forward with, with the learning from that. So practice.

Yeah, so practice. Disciplined practice produces development, not perfection development. And it is in a. This is. And this ability to be aware. Did I really do that? Did I really criticize, you know, Terry, in the middle of this thing, did I roll my eyes when Colleen spoke? You know, there are ways we can show you, which I think you would enjoy. Give us a ring. We'll show you ways to develop feedback at the end of any meeting, any conversation, any iteration that will help you moving forward. Nicole, Resonance and advice.

I think what's resonating with me right now is just hearing the examples of what you just shared around. Oh, I may have messed things up. It's never too late to clean it up with someone and start over with that relationship or the conversation. I think if you've noticed that in meetings before, you have shut people down, you have maybe rolled your eyes, you have maybe been frustrated and just wanted to get through your agenda. And we've all been there, we've all done that. And I think what the important takeaway for me is is that it's never too late to just clean that up and say, hey, you know, I've noticed I've been doing some self reflect and some work and I would really love for our meetings to be like this. I know sometimes, you know, I know that I've done things that maybe have inhibited us from being in that place before, but I want you to help me to move us into a different direction. And I think there are ways in which you can clean that up as a leader and start fresh and move forward in a new way where you can have these kind of conversations, where feedback is welcomed, where learning occurs. So I think that's what's resonating for me right now.

So I love that. And I'll end with a quick story. I had an assistant principal that was about 5 foot tall, maybe 52 if I had to stretch them a little bit. Everybody made fun of him for being short me too, right? And here I am going to these workshops on developing capabilities and getting better, and I actually still have it right on my wall that sarcasm belittling put downs, although meant in good jest, right, is okay. No, it's not. And I stood in front of that entire group of 250 people and I said, I have been doing this since this gentleman joined the leadership team. I'm apologizing to him in front of you because I made fun of him in front of you. And I'm not going to do it again. And I'm really sorry, Mike. And I'll do my best not to do that ever again. It's okay to own something because I am a human being. I make mistakes. I'm not perfect. I would like that. My wife thinks that all my conversations are perfect with her. Guess what? They're not. And sometimes I'm tired, sometimes I'm grumpy, sometimes I'm fine. And I'm not really fine. Right? So all of this is about being very, very, very clear that leadership is a human experience and caring about people is a human experience fraught with all of the ups and downs. Those of you that are listening, we urge you to give us a call. Talk to us about this. You can get a discovery call with any of these folks or we have other people that actually hang around with us. They would all be very willing to talk with you about what it is that we do and how we can enhance the quality of of your everyday Leadership conversations. Call us hop online gojlc.com gojlc.com and you will find us. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for being with us today. Take care.

Sincerest thanks for listening to this episode of the Everyday Leadership Conversations Podcast. The Jorgensen Learning center offers a variety of programs for individuals and organizations to enhance their communication and leadership skills. To find out more about programs and upcoming webinars, check out our events page@gojlc.com.