Feedback: It's Not Just Performance-Based

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Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for joining us for our podcast. This is JLC Media, the Jorgensen Learning center, where we are a group of leadership communications consultants and coaches. We help people improve the quality of their communications so that the relationships inside their team and inside the organization enhance and improve. As you know, the quality of the relationship directly impacts the quality of results. This one is about feedback, and we're going to talk about feedback from a couple of different vantage points. And I think you'll enjoy hearing about those different vantage points. And as we do that, we will build the capacity for you that are listening to think about yourselves in the context of receiving or giving feedback and how to really use the language, the words that you are hearing or using, to help somebody improve the quality of their effectiveness. We're not here because somebody's done something bad or wrong. We're talking about, in this particular set of conversations, how do we improve and enhance the quality of the leadership practice currently being used? And I'll say this very. I'm working on myself all the time. I have been a leader in many, many different environments, and each one had different challenges. And anytime I was having trouble in those different environments, it was me that needed to work on myself. So we are here today to talk about how do we work on ourselves effectively so that those of you that are listening, when you leave this today, you'll get an opportunity to think, wow, I wonder what I could do to enhance the quality, the quality of the relationship I have with the person receiving or giving feedback. Because that's when it works the best. So, Nicole, what are you hearing me say I'm going to work on today?

Yeah, I'm hearing you say that we're going to have some conversation around feedback with the intention of how we can use feedback to help someone enhance the quality of their everyday conversations.

That's beautiful. You know, Nicole, when I was a school principal, late in my career, right? So I'm like 28, 29 years into my education career, I finally figured out that really, feedback was uninteresting to most people unless they wanted it. So the last few years of my life as a school principal, I invited each teacher to write down three or four things they'd like to work on that year to improve the quality of their effectiveness in the classroom. Once they gave me that, my life was simple. I could go and observe, I could chat with them in the hallway. It was just. It changed things. So that's one thing, ladies and gentlemen that are listening, what Nicole teed up is that all of us have a plan to improve our personal mastery as leaders. And once a teacher says, this is how I want to improve my personal mastery as a teacher or in Terry's world, I want to be a better 06, I want to be a better CMO, I want to be a better LNO, whatever the particular position is, if that human being has the opportunity to say, this is what I really want to work on this year. And that's a conversation. So the leader and the person trying to improve themselves get an opportunity to talk about, what would that look like? What would success look like? That's really powerful. Thank you so much. Colleen, what are you hearing and thinking?

Yeah, I think the big thing that I'm hearing is about improving and enhancing personal effectiveness, team effectiveness, the results throughout the organization. And that feedback is a way, not the only way, but it is absolutely a way to enhance personal practice, my ability to be more effective with my cohorts and my compadres and teammates. And then also I'm thinking also about this importance of feedback, systemic loops throughout an organization that creates space for learning and for learning and for more effective decision making. Because things are going on. And if we are not creating, intentionally creating space to learn, how are these changes unfolding throughout the system? We can't modify, adapt, and adjust.

No. You know, Colleen, those of you that are listening, I may be just completely vulnerable. We just left an hour long conversation with this team and two other people to talk about how to improve the quality of our podcasting, how to improve the way we are bringing this information forward. We are all working on this all the time. And thank God, after every one of these podcasts, we have a debrief. We talk about what did we do, what was our intention? What did we do to accomplish that? What did we learn and what might we do differently? This is a constant mantra in our work, and this is all about understanding that when Terry and I have a relationship which is wide open, he can tell me anything and I can tell him anything. The chance of me improving myself goes way up. If I'm stuck trying to be careful, I don't want to hurt his feelings, then I'll get nothing done. So this is a very different kind of environment that we're going to talk about today, and I think you guys are going to love it. Terry, what do you think and feeling learning right this second?

Well, while all of you are talking and what really resonates with me is the constant mantra of always working on yourself and you as a senior leader, us as senior Leaders, we should be thinking about that all the time. What am I learning? What happened in this interaction? What's my takeaway from it? What can I do better next time? And, you know, through my relationship with the Jorgen Learning center, that's what I've learned and practiced, is what am I learning and what do I need to do differently next time? So I look forward to the rest of the podcast and sharing some of those stories, and a couple of those come to mind right off the bat with what we're talking about.

I'm going to pivot right there in a second. But I tell you, this is interesting because as you work with us and those of you that are listening, if you would like to chat with us about how to improve the ways in which you receive and give feedback, you can call us up anytime. You can have a free discovery conversation with anybody on this chat right now and any of the people on our website just to have a discussion about. I've got to talk to this employee, and I'm anxious about it. I kind of like her. I kind of like him, but they're not producing. Is this something? Something's bugging me about their productivity. You can use us in a specific example or even in a team example. So thank you, Terry. Thank you. Thank you. So let's move into. Colleen has actually prepared beautiful content for this conversation today. So, Colleen, you set the stage for us, and I'm going to pivot right to Terry and have him give us a little story. When you talk about these different ways. Feedback. Feedback shows up in a conversation. So, Colleen, tee us up.

Sure. Well, I'm, you know, just wondering if our listeners out there are thinking the same as I do. Sometimes when somebody says, hey, I want to give you some feedback, instantly I go to mega cringe. Right? Ah, okay. And we instantly go to the negative. And so I think that one thing, as we set the stage for this conversation, I invite people to consider that, you know, it's in the title of our podcast, Feel Feedback can be the breakfast of champions. How do I get any better? Right. I mean, I talked about earlier before in another podcast where I started golfing. Well, I want to get better. Well, I want feedback from somebody so they can tell me, am I really holding the club appropriately? What do I need to do with my hips? So I want that feedback because I want to get better on the golf course. And so my invitation is. Feedback's the same, Right. So when I'm in my professional setting, I want to be a better facilitator. To your point, right, we want to get information back from our listeners and how can we be better at making these podcasts? So my invitation right there is just if you were one probably of those thousands of people that your feedback can do the mega cringe, it's notice that about yourself because we're going to talk about four kind of aspects or perspectives of four feedback. And the first one is beginning with self. Right, Right. And so to tee this one up, it's think about your mental model and how you view and approach feedback not only in giving it, but also in receiving it. So I'd love to pivot to my colleagues, really, and just ask them, can they think of a time in their career where either they were concerned about receiving feedback and how did that impact how they showed in the conversation or the other piece. Right. Is in giving feedback. Because to raise point, sometimes I'm working with somebody who I'm sitting next to on the soccer field watching my son play, and I know I'm going to see him. So I'm nervous about either giving that or receiving it from my supervisor. So I'm going to pause there and just open it up to my colleagues to see kind of what are your thoughts? And do you have an example that rises?

Terry?

Okay, well, thanks. Let me talk a little bit about giving feedback. And as we were setting this up today, I was thinking back when I was a mid level director for administration. So I had multiple officers that were underneath me and each of them really approached feedback and informing me in different ways that I have one officer that was constantly in my office sharing information, getting feedback along the way. Here's what I'm doing. Any thoughts? That was a constant feedback and I knew what was going on in that department and his multiple roles that he had. The next one was someone who I very seldom seen. But every week he would give me an email two pages long of all the things of the divisions that he had underneath him. And then I would respond to those emails and saying, hey, here's some priorities. Or I really like the way this thing has turned out. Be mindful of this as we go forward. Or over the next 30 days or 90 days, we want to make sure that we get in position to be able to do A, B or C and deliver, deliver upon that. And then I would take those emails and I would just print them out and I would put them in his division officer file and then I would keep track of them so I could go from one, one email to the next. Right. And keep it going. But I was able to really just provide that positive feedback. My third officer that comes to mind was an officer that I rarely ever saw. And I would constantly worry, you know, what's going on in that department is very critical to what's going on. We have inspections coming up. How are we preparing for them? And things of that nature. So I finally got out of my office, walked down to his office, sat down and said, hey, so what's going on in your world? Right. Can you share with me so I know, and then I can advise the commanding officer of what. What you're doing? So there's very three different approaches. And then for me, as the leader, how did I want to approach that and provide positive feedback and. And to keep myself knowledgeable and also to keep the things going in the right direction. So that's what comes to mind.

That's outstanding, Nicole. What are you hearing, Terry saying? How does that land on you?

What I'm really taking away from that, Terry, is that you molded your feedback to the individual. You had people that were constantly seeking out feedback, and you wanted to provide that to them in the way that was meaningful for them. And you also had people that maybe were real quiet and didn't seek out feedback, so that you had to approach that differently as a leader. You had to go and engage with them and get them talking to you. So it really is about knowing your people, knowing the way in which they like to have conversation with you, and being able to draw out the type of conversations that lead to really honest and authentic conversations for the individual.

How did she, again, get you pretty well?

Oh, yeah. It's really, you know, it takes a while to. I think you have to understand yourself first, and then you start to look at other people and you kind of understand how they tick, and then you try to make that work for the organization. Right. And so it took it. You know, I was. It did. It took a while. Right?

And it does.

First of all, why aren't you coming to talk to me? Right. You need to come to me. I'm the boss. But that's not how they focus. So I want to get the mission done, so how do I turn it around the other way? And then sort of just looked at the different ways to approach it.

I think it's so different. Go ahead, Nicole.

I was just coming back to what Colleen was saying. We all have our own stories. We all have our own experiences with feedback. So coming into any work environment or situation, each individual person is going to have that response potentially. You know, that response when somebody texts you and says, hey, we need to talk, like, what does that do to your body? Like, how do you react to that? Because, you know, it could be a hard conversation or, you know, what did I do wrong? Is where our mind goes first a lot of the time. And I think it begins with creating an environment where people feel safe enough to tell you what's really going on, to tell you if they've messed up, or to have a conversation. And people need evidence that that's a safe space. I'm listening to a book right now called Plan B, written by Adam Grant and Sheryl Sandberg. She's an executive at Facebook, and most of that book is about loss. She lost her husband in sort of a tragic way. But there's a whole chapter on feedback, and she talks about a lot of the things that they did within Facebook to create a culture where people felt really safe talking about when they'd messed up and giving each other consistent feedback. And one of the questions that she asks leaders who are looking to develop is a, how do you respond to feedback? Like, you should know how you personally respond to feedback. And then she created an environment among her whole staff and leaders, how they respond to people and give people feedback in a really safe way. She gave this example about one of their interns who was working on fixing some kind of a bug, but accidentally shut down Facebook for like 30 minutes, which can be, you know, if you're talking about social media, that's like a disaster, right? They actually named a process, they hired this person, named a process after him and really focused in on what they learned. So they used whatever he had done and said, we need to do that more so that we can learn from every single opportunity that we have. You know, this might shut us down or this bug might take us out or whatever, you know, tech things that I don't know the real names of. But I thought it was a really wonderful example of how they took the fear out of failure and they took the fear out of feedback because they equated it with learning. And I think that's what we talk about all the time. So that's just what's coming up for.

Me, you know, I'll tell you a little story. One of my early lives as a mid level leader, I had a boss, and what he would do is he would put a note in the mailbox that said, see me re colon. Never put anything down, but he wanted to see you about. Right. The entire house would get to see me re. And they would be like, Ah, they'd be running around like, what did I do now? And you made that point twice now, Nicole. I'm going to reinforce it. In the literature, we are developed almost with a negative bias. Like, if somebody says, I want to give you some feedback, your original kind of the subconscious response is, no, thank you. I'm busy. I'm going to go get coffee. I'm taking a break. You know, it's almost like, I don't want to be in this conversation. And to your point and Terry's point, magnificent. People need to be able to express to the leader, this is how I would enjoy receiving feedback from you. And if you can't find somebody, go see them. Get up out from behind your desk and go find them. You guys. Fantastic. Terry, something to add to this?

No, I think you're right on. I'm good with this.

Colleen?

Yeah, I mean, I just would like to say that we pivoted beautifully to the second perspective. At the beginning. I said, there's like, four different ways we encourage you to view feedback. The first one was self. And I think Terry had a great example of self. Nicole closed the loop, which is another form of feedback. Right. Ensuring and reflecting that. Are we all on the same page? Are we developing a common understanding? And another key piece when we're talking about self and feedback. And then we already pivoted with a story that Nicole laid on the table. Beautiful story. To the second piece, which is up. How do I provide feedback up to somebody who might be my either direct supervisor or to what Terry in his story was saying. That was feedback he needed. Right. So he could make a more informed decision. And I think what resonated with me, Terry, with your story is probably people are like, well, I don't want to share any news that's bad, because then I'm going to look bad, and he's going to think I can't do my job. And it's all about me. And I think this invitation for you to consider is this is about the team winning. This is about my supervisor, the one who's making the decisions, the one who has more information up there than I do, who sees the world through a different dashboard, who is having different conversations. How can I, as a team player, take it and take a step outside of myself and think, man, you know, I recognize I'm going to bring some news that maybe Terry doesn't want to hear. And yet, and this goes to Nicole's point, there's a space there that I'm pretty sure I can bring it to him because he wants to make the most informed decision he possibly can. And if I withhold, then he's not going to have all the data he needs. So guess what? It's not about me. It's about the team winning and me supporting my supervisor to give them the information they need so they're not operating with missing data.

It's a constant mantra among our associates and then the people that work with us, what can I do? What is my responsibility to help the team win? I actually work with some leaders who had, as part of their leadership philosophy, no bad news. No, no bad news. I don't want to hear it. No bad news. And what would a person that says no bad news, if that's the leader, what kind of space would that person be creating for those that report to him? You start us off. I know you even know there are people like that out there. What is that kind of leader creating? What kind of culture is that leader creating?

Oh, my God, a recipe for disaster, right? Because it's okay to bring bad news, but you, your responsibility, say, hey, here's the bad news, but here's what I'm doing about it. That's what's so critical about it, is tell me there's a problem or there's an issue, and here's the way forward. You know, I love it when people would bring that to me. They'll say, hey, I need to go fix it. I'm like, bravo. I'm not worried at all. Just go fix it.

I love it. And I watched Terry do this live. Somebody brought a problem, and Terry's space was safe enough for this person to say, this is what happened, and it's not good. And the person went through the explanation, and Terry waited a few seconds and said, well, do you have some ideas about what to do to fix this? And right away, some ideas were there. And then Terry said, do you have any other people in mind that you could use as a resource? That question was unbelievable because that leader that worked for Terry said, you know, there are a couple of people I know have faced this before, so I may go give them a chat, too. He did not rescue them, because if you rescue, you're part of drama and you depress achievement. And he did not. He was so disciplined in not rescuing that person, but asked a couple of questions, coaching questions, leadership coaching that allowed that person to think, who do I know that I could talk with openly and honestly that could give me some feedback moving forward. Terry, that was one of the most impressive leadership moments. And you've done many with me. I've watched you do great stuff. That was a big one. And what are you thinking about that, Terry, right now? That's really a big deal that you did not allow yourself to rescue that person.

Well, I've done a lot of practicing on the drama triangle and trying not to rescue. You know, I've been practicing, and part of my relationship with the JLC has been that right early on, I didn't understand. I was always asking questions, how do I start to practice these techniques? And once I did, I found it was. It was good, and it was great for the team. It was great for me as well.

Yeah, that's working on self again. In other words, you can't work on yourself around drama if you don't recognize the different roles that exist. The rescuer, the persecutor, the victim. If you don't recognize those roles, you sometimes won't even notice you're in one of those roles. And then once you learn it, people say to me, oh, I don't want to be a victim. I say, well, you're not a victim. You're something. You're not a victim. The key is to just notice, notice, acknowledge, and recognize. That's where you are right now. And how do we go forward from here? How do we go forward from here? We have more on the drama triangle. Those of you that are listening, if you want to learn more about it, we have podcasts on it and on the website. We have some wonderful material that I think you would enjoy. Nicole, what's resonating with you right now?

Yeah, it was just interesting. That connection is so strong between the drama triangle and feedback when we automatically, I think, jump into one of those roles when we start to receive feedback or maybe even when we're giving feedback. So, yeah, I would definitely go back to the resources we have on the drama triangle and just notice where you tend to land when you're either giving or receiving feedback. I think that was really beautiful.

Beautiful, beautiful. And, you know, Nicole, you just brought up leadership presence. If I go, hey, Colleen, lean in here a minute. I have some feedback to give you about how you worked last week. Man, my stance is, what, judgmental, Right. I'm going to tell her what she did wrong and she better fricking fix it and blah, blah, blah, Right? We are in a ladder fight. We're in a ladder fight right in the moment, and, oh, my God, we want to avoid that whenever we can. Because I can't work on myself if I'm busy fighting. Terry.

Yeah. One of the things that comes to mind is one of my techniques or what I do frequently is I'll come back and my feedback is in a positive direction, right? And I want them to do more of something. So I say, oh, I really like the way you did this. And sort of reinforcing those actions, because I like to see those actions more. Right? So as a senior leader, that's a good way to do it. Not to point out what you did wrong, but point out what you did right. And that to make things better, let's.

Practice that what you focus on grows. And if we're focusing on what's good, solid, useful, enhances the system, does better for the team, that's powerful. We all show up saying, I know I screwed something up, right? And if we focus on what we did wrong, guess what? It grows. It grows. We perseverate on that. And then we end up doing it again and go, why did that happen? Colleen, you've been leading us through this beautifully. Anything to add to this piece?

Yeah, I just would say, you know, what's resonating through is this tendency to easily slip into the drama triangle with feedback. And that could be when I'm receiving it for myself. It could be when I'm giving it, right. It could be when I'm providing it up to perhaps my supervisor. And the third direction that we're talking about, feedback specifically, is around team. It very well could be that I easily slip into feedback that I'm receiving from Nicole because she's saying, I'm not meeting my deadlines, so easy for me to go, well, geez, Nicole, seriously, I'm waiting for that, you know, report from Terry. If I don't get the stuff from Terry, what am I supposed to do when he's not giving me the data and the information that I need? So how easy is it to fall into that? And then as someone who really wants to move a project forward and to continue with our marketing effort, she's like, dang, I'm going to give Terry a call because he's slacking off. I'm going to jump in there. So I think, you know, just how simple and easy it is to fall into that. And then the other piece also with this team, because this is the third Sorry, out outbound is with colleagues, right? So that's really. This other perspective of feedback is many times we. We kind of defend. And so that was what was brought up earlier, Ray, when you talked about being on top of your ladder. So also it's to recognize defending is Losing. If I'm defending my position when Nicole is providing me once again self mastery. I want to be the best facilitator I can. I want to be the best teammate. I'm not open to hearing that. If I have my conversational dukes up and I'm beating back every word as it comes out of her mouth. I am not open to learning or receiving her feedback at all. Creating a space of non cooperative collaboration.

Within the team, we kind of miss the chance to be vulnerable and to have a space safe enough to admit. I'm going to say one thing about that and then we'll kind of move. We're getting toward the end of our podcast. I don't want to keep you guys longer than you want to give us. When a team forms, it is very important for them to share their individual, personal visions of success and to have a conversation. But, well, how, how do you want to receive feedback on how you're doing? How can we celebrate with you your achievements and how can we support you and be a resource to you moving forward as a team? We sometimes don't get there. And look how Colleen just naturally told me, well, Terry didn't send me stuff, so I'm now a victim of Terry. And why the hell are you asking me? It was just an immediate. It's almost like we're hardwired for this because this lives in our self talk and then lives in our little tea truths. This has just been magnificent. Back to you, Nicole. What's resonating with you right now about that little piece about team?

Yeah, I think what resonated for me was this idea of collective success versus individual success. I think when we hold on to the fears that we have as individuals or we hold on to like, no, I need to prove myself or I need to be the one who's winning, we lose the opportunity to collaborate and share with others. We're not in competition with our peers. We have collective goals for the collective success of our entire organization or our entire team. And I think that's where you can get tripped up. A lot of times when we're looking at this sideways level of feedback is are you being pit against each other in some way? Are you pitting yourself against your peers in some way? And why investigate that if you're not noticing it and see how you can shift it, come back to those collective or collaborative goals so that you can be have, you know, have the common understanding of where what you're all working towards versus what you're individually working towards.

Yeah, it's almost like sharing what I'm doing to enable the team to win, enable my peers to win, and enable the system to win. Once we begin to say it out loud, it almost like it's. You can take a deep breath. And it follows one of our big deals at jlc, and that is to be mutually invested in one another's success, which is why people meet on Mondays to say, what are our priorities for this week? And they meet again on Friday. How did we do? What went well, to Terry's point? What did we learn? What do we do differently? Coming to the end, Terry, what are you thinking now? Give us some insight as you have gone through this with us today.

I think it's been very good. And one of the things that comes to mind, based upon what Nicole was just saying, is as a senior leader, I've always approached it as a team.

Right.

What do we need to be doing together? And I think as senior leaders, that's so important. It's not what I need to do, although you may be. What do I need to do to help the team? It's really as the leader, you're saying what you know, it's not you. You know, I don't feel like I need to give direction. I just need to need to give. This is what we need to achieve. This is where we need to get to. And never having to give that direction, you go do. And I think that's. Those are the teams that win more often because they're all collectively engaged in winning for the team.

One of your colleagues, Terry, this is like a frozen moment in time for me. When your senior leader moved and then retired and a new senior leader showed up, one of your colleagues, who you know very, very well and who I love to death, he said to the. One of the people said to him, I think you want something for us. And this gentleman said, I don't want anything for you. I want to be the best I can be to support this team in achieving its goals. I'll never forget that. The room got silent and it was just. The impact was phenomenal. I want to know what I can do, what can I do to improve myself so I can do what's necessary to support this team in achieving its goals. That was a powerful moment in that transition time. And I know you remember because it was such an unbelievable moment. Do you remember that, Taylor?

Not quite. I can't remember who that was, but.

It was Mike, I think.

I remember. I remember the moment in. Where we were. Yeah.

And it was Mike and it was Just really. Just the most elegant sentence. And I watched.

Yeah.

Oh, wow.

Yeah, I like that.

That's different. That's me working on me. So I can be the best. I can be the best, Ray I can be to support this team. So, yeah. All right, let's do a quick little. The top thing that resonated the most with you, Nicole, what kind of said. That's good. I want to remember that. What got you?

Yeah. I don't know if I have a specific thing I can pull out, but to me, it's all coming back to the modeling. It begins with me. It begins with me as the leader and how I can model what I want to see from others.

I love it, love it, love it. And that came up yesterday on another interview that we did. And actually, the gentleman we interviewed said, thank you for that, Ray. I sometimes don't always follow the research as closely. I do things by intuition. And his intuition was, if it is to be, it's up to me. I must model it first. It's really good. Ms. Colleen, what resonated most with you today?

Yeah, I mean, I think that several things, as Nicole said, but I really do believe that it is the importance of developing a safe space, because it's all about the relationships. If I have a quality relationship with someone, the feedback comes and lands on me differently. So I'll just say everything goes back to that. If I want to have a true collaborative, cooperative environment, if I want to have a culture of learning, if I want to have all these strategic priorities of this process, improvement, you name it, all of these are management tools, too. And if I want all of those to work, I need some feedback. Right. That is key systemically. So I think the biggest piece is how can we intentionally develop the professional relationships? So when I do have something that I need to provide to my supervisor, to my colleagues, to my team, I've got almost. I know I can bring it forward to them in a way that can be respectful, that they will. How can I say, be receptive to and not push back and amount.

So, Colleen, I'm going to do a story briefly that I did for three of you, I'm sure at some point, but not the listeners. I was in San Diego at a big conference, 3,000 or 4,000 people in attendance, great speakers. You name anybody that was a luminary at that time showed up. The meeting organizer found that Mother Teresa was in town. She came and spoke, and she spoke for less than two minutes, and she got a standing ovation and the highest rating of anybody that spoke for the entire week, the last piece of the conference. And she stood, a very small woman, diminutive, and stood behind the microphone. The room was standing up, cheering. To the last person, the organizer introduced Mother Teresa. She stood behind the microphone till the room got quiet. Everyone sat down. She stepped up to the microsound and she said, I understand that all of you out here want to lead people. If you want to lead people, there are two things that I think you really need to consider. One, you got to know them. Two, you got to love them. Because that will create a space where people know I unconditionally care about you and I look forward to you being successful. That space opens up for people a very powerful environment for learning and for caring. Terry, what resonated most with you?

I think feedback is so important and something that we as senior leaders need to be mindful of. And what is the best way to get feedback? And asking your staff up and down, how would you like to receive feedback? I thought was a good takeaway from today. I think the constant mantra of looking at yourself and learning and figuring out my three different department heads, how do they like to get feedback? I think for you, the individual and learning in the constant mantra of how can I do better? Resonated with me today. And I'm out.

The first one we lead is ourselves. And I love this conversation. And remember that what came forward before that, really, Nicole laid on the table and Colleen reinforced it. If it is to be, it's up to me. If I want to have a space that has great feedback where we can use it to improve ourselves. We need to build that safe environment where people can really listen and hear one another. Knowing I'm not here to hurt you. I'm not here to judge you. I'm here to let you know what I am noticing so that you can think about how you might use that feedback to improve your own personal mastery. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for listening to us today. This is JLC Media. I beg you to go to gojlc.com, look at the material that's on there, and if you'd like to have a discovery conversation with us, please tell us. We would love to chat with you. And that is on us. That is, well, probably the only thing on us, but that's on us. We'll take care of you. That'll be a free conversation. And if you enjoy the work, please let us know. Let us know that you're enjoying what you're hearing and what you're learning. Thank you so much for being with us and spending that very valuable asset of the 21st century your time. Take care everyone.

Sincerest thanks for listening to this episode of the Everyday Leadership Conversations Podcast. The Jorgensen Learning center offers a variety of programs for individuals and organizations organizations to enhance their communication and leadership skills. To find out more about programs and upcoming webinars, check out our events page@gojlc.com.