Inside JLC: Developing Trust with the Learning Conversation Guidelines

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for being with us here at JLC Media. This is kind of a fun one for me as the founder of jlc, because it's an insider conversation. We're going to just talk about a few things. Our scope has dramatically increased. We're talking to people in many different places in many different fields, and sometimes we forget that there are certain fundamentals that must be done right away in order for conversations to happen and in order for real learning to happen. So today I'm going to invite the team to react to a couple of thoughts that I have about what's right, what should we do right away, what should be our first things to do. Whether I'm in an executive coaching environment, I'm in a team development environment, or I'm working with the system, trying to help the organization improve, deal with change, identify the strategies that matter. So there are a few things that really matter up front in order for all of our services and all of our programs to kind of take root and sustain themselves. So that's what I'm going to talk about today. And those of you that are listening, keep those pencils ready. I think you're going to hear all kinds of powerful takeaways from the gang. So let me just have them quick introduce themselves and they can hand off to one another. So Colleen, introduce self and then hand off to one of our colleagues and associates and friends.

Sure, absolutely. I'm a regular on the podcast, Colleen Sullivan, the COO and JLC associate. And I will hand it over to another associate, Dr. Sharon Beverly.

Hi, I'm Dr. Sharon Beverly, serve currently at the University of Hartford as a consultant. And I love joining JLC for these initiatives.

Who are you going to hand off to, Sharon?

I am going to hand off to Joe.

Hi. And I'm Joe Marshall. I'm an executive coach here for jlc. And I will hand it off to Terry.

Hi, I'm Terry Moulton. I'm a former Navy Medical Service Corps officer, been with JLC for a couple years now and.

Glad to be here. Well, we're happy to have you all on. And my name is Ray, so those who watch the podcast probably know who I am. So the I think we started this little dance about 27 or 28 years ago now. So it's really fun to think about all the places we've been and things that we've seen. Colleen has been with me for a dozen years and everybody else for a little while. Sharon's been with me since 19 because the poor woman had to put up with me as her head basketball coach in high school. So we've had a long run together, and God bless her, she's still here and still smiles at me, which is really nice. So this focus today is about no matter what we do, there are some fundamentals, and if you've seen, and I think some of you have seen us work in very large groups, we begin the same way, whether it's a few hundred people, a thousand people, or it's a small group of five, four, even three. And the very first thing that we work on is what are the conversation guidelines? Now? When I first learned them, they called them the five disciplines of dialogue. That's the first time I ran into them, and I realized how long it took to develop the idea of a disciplined dialogue. Dialogue is a word that has a Greek root, and it comes from meaning moving through. That's what it means, meaning moving through a conversation and a learning conversation, which is what I'm going to talk about right now and have the gang weigh in. A learning conversation is like a dialogue, but it is not a debate. It is not a discussion. And I really want to clarify that. A debate comes from the French etymology debatere. It means to beat down discussion, decurre, more Latin etymology. And it means to break apart a conversation, something with people, to create common understanding, not necessarily agreement, common understanding. That distinction is critical. So even if you're working with one person or five or a hundred, that beginning really, really matters. How is this landing on you guys who'd like to go, what are you guys hearing me say? What are you thinking? Learning, feeling?

Well, I think the notion of common understanding is hugely important and powerful because I do think we tend to think of these things more as a debate or something that we somehow derive goodness out of. And I think the deeper look at this, the deeper understanding of this is that common understanding means that you and I understand where we are going. We might see the journey a little differently, we might experience it a little differently, we might explain it a little differently, but we expect to arrive at the same destination.

That's magnificent, Joe. So there's this space, like if since Joe has worked with and Terry has worked with medical people, when I was working with some physicians that Joe asked me to talk with that were being deployed, we talked about the ER and how if you didn't check in ahead of time and make sure everybody was on the, quote, same page about the operation and the fact that this is a safe space for you to say something, those were the things that would get People in trouble that would. Sometimes we could even lose somebody in the operating room if we were unable to have a common understanding. And. Right. So to Joe's point, the journey for everybody in that OR is all different. All different. And the ability for us to commonly understand the outcome and make sure we understand it, we can align our behaviors to get there real, real good. Terry, you hear something more different? No.

What I was thinking about as you were talking and describing the meeting is, you know, how do you start the meeting? And then I was thinking, be present. Right? When you come into a meeting, you really need to be present. You have lots of things going on, lots of distractions. So how do you get yourself to be present in the meeting and not to let your mind wander? So I think that's very important as you start a meeting, be present.

So, Terry, stay there with me just for a minute. And all of us on this call right now, I was so locked on to what you were saying, I made myself listen to understand you and then I checked to see whether I got it right or not. That's the second biggest thing. So the heart of these learning conversation guidelines is to acknowledge what somebody said, confirm that you understood, and then respond respectfully. If you can teach that in the very first session, first 5, 10 minutes of the session, your sessions will be different. Because now I don't have a choice but to be present. If I have chosen in my heart to say I'm going to listen to Terry and to Joe as they're speaking and as my mind goes away, simply come back. We would go through dialogue sessions of six and seven days, which was all about as I got distracted, come back, be present. Now you'll hear us talk about all this gang. We'll all talk about. We can do things to get you to be present. We can do check ins, which is one of the most important things you can do to be present. And we'll show you how to start a meeting. But listening to understand, absolutely critical, because it keeps me with you. You've even heard me say, I went back to listening and I forgot what I was going to say because I truly wanted to hear what you said. Sharon, how's this resonating with you?

Oh boy, I should have jumped in there before Terry, because that's exactly what I keyed in on. When you take away the, you know, the barriers and, and to communication, the listening piece is what I jumped in on. If I'm not distracted by all these other pieces, I'm listening to what you're saying and now we really can engage in a conversation. I'm not trying to be combative. I'm not trying to make you understand my side. I'm listening to what you said and then processing it and responding.

Yeah, I love it. I love it. Thank you. To process and then to respond, not react. I want to enlarge slightly what Joe said he talked about. It's not a debate. No, it's not. It is a conversation. However, I have seen debates help us. For example, let's assume that your leader, the president of your college, Sharon, is trying to figure out how to go forward and has kind of a bifurcation of two possible journeys. One of the greatest gifts I've ever seen a facilitator do. And I adopted this. I. That's how I did it. When I had a large group, I would take two people on different sides of an argument and let them make their cases, just like in a college debate. You ever watch those? They don't even agree with the position they've been given, but they're going to make it work. All of a sudden, incredible understanding unfolded in the room. Now, we could have a conversation about the big points that unfolded. So I don't want to dismiss the fact that debate could be useful. It could. And even in decision making, sometimes you get to the edge of making the decision. We have to break the possibilities apart so we make the best one. And of course, the decision is not going to be my decision. It's going to be a decision we collectively. We collectively understand and can act upon. That was really good, sir. Thank you. All three have been great. Colleen, what's resonating with you?

Yeah, I think a lot of different things. What's really resonating with me is that it's a different type of conversation. Right. While debate has a place, while dialogue has a place, while decision making has a place. Really, what I've heard are great examples on developing that common understanding, not necessarily consensus. But do we understand the thinking behind what Sharon offered? Can I suspend my certainty long enough to be open to an alternative perspective? And the things that you mentioned around acknowledging and responding respectfully, even though I see it differently, creates a space and a feeling of what we call safely dangerous space. So as I'm thinking about having these types of conversations with my team, a true learning conversation, it feels different and it looks different and it produces a different outcome.

Absolutely. That's nicely stated. And I love the way you identified the fact that if it is a learning conversation, it produces a different result. I think that's really, really important. Those of you that are listening, the very first one is listen to understand. Now, the third one that we teach is called suspending certainty, which is what Sharon mentioned, okay. This is the ladder of inference. And if you haven't studied the ladder of inference, the gentleman that created it was Donald Schoen up in and a colleague of his. The two of them worked on this for a long time. And what they said fundamentally that I come to a conclusion based upon my attitudes, beliefs, biases and assumptions. And as long as I recognize that I do that, I can recognize that I'm missing data. And I don't always come to the same conclusion that Sharon or Terry or Joe or Colleen would come to. So it's important for me to hear their decisions. So I listen to understand, to hear the different decisions, fully grappling with the idea that I've come to a decision, I've come to a conclusion, right? It may not be what other people have seen because their life experiences are different, their attitudes, beliefs, biases and assumptions are different. So as they run up their ladder, they filter data based on their life experiences. So one, listen to understand. Number three, suspend certainty. That's the ladder of inference. And each of you has had great experience with that. Let me go back through the same order again, Joe. One, listen to understand. Two, speak from the heart. But I'm talking about the third one, the ability to suspend certainty. Talk to us about that, Joe.

Yeah, I think suspending certainty is important. I think leadership many times views their responsibility as the decision maker and the one in charge, and that they therefore they have less need to listen or to listen to divergent points of view.

Brilliant.

And so many times the tendency of the more senior leader is to cut off discussion, to cut off debate, if you will, as we said earlier, and just go. To just do what I say. Just do what I say. And I'm drawing it out a little bit because maybe it's not that dramatic, maybe it's more nuanced, maybe it's more subtle, but the message is the same.

Love it. Love it.

And so, Ray, let me turn the question around to you. So what do you say to those people who are maybe listening to this, who are in leadership positions, who are like, I don't need no stinking input from everybody else. I know what to do. They just need to follow me. So what do you say to them?

Good luck. That's probably a recipe for failure. And we have too many examples of that. The most prevalent examples out there, when there is no opportunity for feedback and input are significant ones that you all know about. One is the challenger and the other is discovery. The discovery is a more recent one where there were one of the engineers who said, I saw something, I saw something. When there was the final separation, I saw something. And he was unable to say it other than the very first time he said it was to someone who said, we don't need you to be Chicken Little, right? I don't need you to be telling me I got a problem. Are you sure? Are you absolutely sure? Well, these are engineers. Right now, I can't be sure. Just telling you what I thought I saw. And there was no way for that space to get safe enough for them to take another look. So you, as a leader, if you're saying, I know what to do now, of course, if it's a 911, like, Terry has great examples. When he was working at the Pentagon and the plane crashed and he went to work, he didn't run home, he didn't go back to his office, he went to work. So he went up his ladder to a decision, trouble, problem, I'm going to work. And he went to take care of people. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about significant decisions that you're taking time to grapple with. If you sit in your own ladder, on top of your own ladder, you give up the wisdom that is in the room. That is a mistake, A mistake, because you will not have all the possible data points and perceived information that's unfolding and you'll just run down your own path. This I know for sure about myself. Every conclusion I have ever come to, ever come to, is filled with missing and faulty information. If I accept that as so, that that is real and it is true for me, by the way, absolutely true. Every. Every conclusion is based on missing information. If I respect that position and I. I recognize. Oh, my God, ladies and gentlemen, this has been true forever. And now the literature tells us we must be able to pull the wisdom in and suspend certainty. How did I do, Joe?

So, Ray, I just want to challenge you a little bit more because what if you're a leader who's in a major change environment where frankly, the people who are, your team, your leadership team, who are advising you, who are helping you, and let's just say that they are, they are not for change or they are of a very conservative mindset, and you as the leader, have the vision and see the need to go in a different direction. As a leader, how do you make judgments about whether or not to open up to that input or to bear down and focus on what you believe is the right thing.

Joe, you told the best story about that with Steve Jobs. Steve Jobs did not agree that we needed to turn our iPad into or device that listens to music into a phone. So he's the CEO saying, I don't do that. Right. And what did you then tell me? He was wide open to listen to the other people. So he had a position. He stated his position. And ladies and gentlemen, state your position. And then expect that somebody's going to say, okay, boss, what I'm hearing you saying is this, this, and this. Do I get that right? Yes, you have that right, Joe. And then Joe gets to say, I have another perspective. And the greatest leaders start saying questions like, does anybody see this differently? This is about building collective wisdom to make a great decision moving forward. And it's wonderful to have oppositional learners. It's wonderful to have people that don't agree. Thank you. Tell me, I want to know what it is about this decision that you don't agree with. Help me understand. All of a sudden, the richness of those conversations builds. Great, great. Best possible decision moving forward. Joe, that was great. Terry, what are you thinking and learning? I'm sorry, Joe, go ahead.

No, I just wanted to say that I think for the leader, it takes a lot of confidence and a lot of courage to be able to do what we just talked about. But I do believe it is the essence of leadership is to be open to those different views and then having resolved on the way forward, to not criminalize those who might have felt differently.

Or execute them in any way. Yes, right, right.

But I do think this is one of the leadership points, and I'll stop here so Sharon can get in on others. Is that for leadership, they have to think carefully about how they deal with really good people on their team who. Who express, you know, who take the risk of expressing some opposition or other views.

I love that. And I'm going to. I'll respond to that. Admit when I was a new leader, what I was doing, I wouldn't listen to anybody because I thought I had a. No. All of a sudden something happened. Significant things happened to me. I don't want to get into them right now. Where I realized I did not embrace the idea of someone that I wouldn't necessarily go to dinner with. I needed to learn how to accept all the differing and varying perspectives that were unfolding. And when I was young at this and new at this, I screwed that up. Miserably multiple times. Again, as everybody will say today, will pat me on the shoulder. Well, that was an opportunity for you to learn. Thank you so much. Enjoyed it. Not at all. It was like a pain in the ass. But I did learn, and I think that's the part that's really critical is we are learning. Sharon, you're going to off something.

Yeah. I think, you know, to flip it and say it's important to create the safe space for those other voices and those other opinions to feel that they can come forward. That's another piece to this. So that. That was just something I wanted to throw in there.

No, no, no. I love that, Sharon. So here we are. Number one, listen to understand, not to not to agree. Listen to understand. Right. This keeps going back to listening. It always goes back to listening. When you speak from the. Is it safe enough for me to speak from the heart to Colleen's point? If there's no safe space, I'm not going to tell you what I'm thinking in my heart. I'm going to lie or be quiet or look good or something different than that. Right. So very critical to speak from the heart. The third one, suspend certainty. That's our ladder game. The fourth one, which we miss sometimes holds space for difference. Who sees this differently? Who has another perspective? Right. And the last one, and I thought you guys really helped me beautifully with this today. Slow down. Stop running to a conclusion. In fact, I had one gentleman that I coached. When he gets to that point with his team, they're about to make a decision. He says, okay, 10 minute break. And he sent him out for coffee and they all wandered around and got coffee. They got back together 10 or 15 minutes later and said, okay, here's where we were 10 minutes ago. Do you still see it the same way? Do we have a common understanding that this is the way forward? Just that pause is stunning. But you can do it on the run. I pause all the time. You heard me start off. And it was silence until someone spoke. Slow down the conversation. Terry, what's resonating with you?

Yeah, I think as you're talking and everyone's talking about the conversation, one of the things that I was thinking about is the not being. Be self aware. Right. Know where you are in the meeting, be observant of the. Of your surroundings. Is the conversation just one long, continuing talking point or are we stopping, pausing, listening and holding space for other people to have a. Have a different view? Because it gets back to what you were saying, that collective wisdom of the group. And as the Leader, you want that? So how do you create this self awareness so that you can allow that. That to happen in the meeting?

I love it. See, when I did this work, we went out to the Southwest to study this work, dialogue with the Indians, Native Americans. Sorry, Native Americans. And when we were out there, this one Native American elder taught me the following. Be who you are, Be where you are, Decide and do. Be who you are. Be where you are. Decide and do. I bring that up because of something that happened to me. And I used Joe as counsel for this Surgeon General, asked me to come work with a gentleman who was getting sideways with the Surgeon General. Now, I should have just worked with the Surgeon General. I did not. I did what the boss asked, so I did it. But this guy, here's what he would do in a flag meeting. This was a regular statement out of his mouth. What the Surgeon General means is this. And the surgeon General said, I don't need anybody interpreting my meaning. Stop it. Okay? They don't understand. That's my responsibility to ask or my responsibility to clarify. So he was behaving in a way that didn't make sense in the context of where he was. Be who you are. Be where you are. Decide and do. This is probably one of the more critical components of being present, being here right now. So, for example, I was in a meeting with General Mattis, and there were probably 35, 40 people in the room. I had ideas. I didn't speak them until somebody asked me a question. I could have jumped up 20 or 30 times before somebody asked me a question. That would have been absolutely inappropriate because my particular perspective was not invited when it was. Of course I offered it, but not until. See, that is understanding who you are, where you are. Decide and do. Critical component. Listen to understand. Speak from the heart. Suspend certainty. Hold space for difference. Slow down. Those five guidelines get us started in such a powerful way. And ladies and gentlemen, let me be very clear. As long as you go back to listening to understand, you'll do them all. In fact, if Joe says something or Sharon says something I don't agree with, right? All of a sudden, that's me thinking about my own ability to suspend my certainty, to suspend my thinking so I can say, man, that doesn't resonate with me. And if it's safe enough, I can say it. Those of you listening, this podcast is coming to a close. I'm going to ask my gang to take a second here and think about you're talking to somebody you really care about. And there was one message you Want them to get one. This is somebody you really, really care about. You know, could be a kid, could be your own kid. It could be a peer, could be a colleague. It could be someone you're coaching. If there was one kernel you would invite them to take from this conversation, what would that one kernel be? Who'd like to start?

Yeah, this is Terry. I'll start.

Go ahead, Terry. You got the floor.

Okay, thanks, Joe. Yeah, I think where you started. Listen for understanding, right? And all the elements that go into that. You really don't go in and have those preconceived notions, but really practice these elements that were talked about today and listen for understanding. Very, very important to do that.

So who'd like to acknowledge what Terry said and expand? Who'd like to go next?

Yeah, so I'll do that. So I think the. Listen to understand is very important. I think the. And I'm. For those of you who can't see, I'm holding up a placard that I've my last four jobs. You write these conversation guidelines.

I love you, Joe. I love you.

Put them on the wall so you can see them. I advocate putting them on the wall in your office, putting them in your meeting rooms, putting them in your second in command's office, whatever you call your second in command. Again, just because it's many times difficult in the stress of a meeting to remember what the rules are and kind of where you are. And it's a great reminder to keep you on track.

I love it, Joe. Thank you. Who'd like to acknowledge Joe's comments and expand?

I would. I'm acknowledging them. And I would add where I'm taking. What I'm taking away is respectful discourse for growth. Because out of those differences of opinion, that's how we can be stronger.

That's beautiful. Thank you, Colleen, you get to go.

No, Sharon, I really like that, the respectful discourse. And I think what resonated with me is and when you do not keep the guidelines in play and engage in respectful discourse, you shrink the psychological safety and safe space, which, oh, my goodness, creates blind spots as the leader, because now I'm operating once again only on my own data and information that I'm seeing. So I think the one thing that I would recommend to our listeners is really think about how you show up in a meeting. Am I engaging in respectful discourse? Am I intentionally acknowledging and responding respectfully? And if I'm not, how is that impacting my ability to surface the thinking of my team?

And I'm out and see Everybody, look how much Colleen talks when she talks. See, the second you do something like that and you think you're being funny, you're not. You just made the space unsafe. And I watched so many great leaders think that that's a way of engaging. It is not. Stop teasing, stop putting people down, stop making fun of in a meeting. Because honest to God, my generation, we behaved as though that was good. That was what you did to make you like, part of the good old gang, you know? And if you do that today, leading multiple generations now, you will pull them completely out of the room. Thanks for letting me play with you on that one, Colleen. That probably shocks everybody whenever I do something like that as a model, but it's just our ability to keep reminding people that we need their thinking, we need their identity, we need who they are, though. Ladies and gentlemen, thanks for being with us today. Remember, if you don't do anything, you can at least listen to understand, by the way, not make believe you're listening. Like nodding and smiling at Joe until he stops so I can talk, right? No, that's not it. That's bs. Listen, to understand is to actually understand the previous person's thinking to the best of your ability, to your best, your ability. And then say, this is what I heard you say. Did I get it right? They get to say yes or no. All of a sudden. Safe space grows. Thank you for being with us at JLC Media. If you want to hear more, go to gojlc.com if you would like a discovery conversation with any of these fine people on this call right now, please please send us a note and you will have an absolutely free 30 minute discovery call for any of the issues that you're working on in your own company, individually, as a team, or as a system. Take care everyone. Thank you very much for being with us. Sincerest thanks for listening to this episode of the Everyday Leadership Conversations podcast. The Jorgensen Learning center offers a variety of programs for individuals and organizations to to enhance their communication and leadership skills. To find out more about programs and upcoming webinars, check out our events page@gojlc.com.