Inside JLC: Establishing a Quality Coaching Relationship

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for joining us here at JLC Media. This is a really kind of. For me. I love these podcasts. This is inside jlc. So we have insiders in front of you right now. Everybody you're listening to or looking at on YouTube. These are insiders at JLC. And I teed up this conversation with Colleen about before Christmas, but I don't think she remembers because it was Christmas and. And then New Year's. So we kind of lost that thread, so to speak. But I will lay it on the table and I think you guys will really enjoy this. And audience, Happy New Year. And to all of us here, I'm so grateful to have them in my life. We're all coaches, educational executive coaches. We coach leaders from all different walks of life. Hundreds of different companies have joined the JLC world over the last almost 30 years now. And we have played that role of coach constantly. And one of the questions that I wanted to bring up today is if somebody gives us a ring and says, I'd like you to coach me, I am an executive in this company. I'm a leader in the Navy. I am whatever I am. I want to be coached. There's a condition that I have learned really matters. And I want the team to respond to the condition that I'm going to bring forward in just a few moments so that as each of you are out there coaching people that you lead. Cause we all do this. If I'm a C suite person or a team leader or I'm a sales leader for a company, we are all in that space of coaching. And I'll bring this up in the condition in just a moment. So when we get this together, I'm gonna get the gang to respond to that now rather than have them all speak to you. Cause there are five of us on the podcast. I'm gonna introduce each one. So. And I'll try not to call Colleen Jorgensen. Colleen Jorgensen. She's Colleen Sullivan. She is the chief operating officer for us. We have also on screen another female. So you can tell who I'm talking about. This is Dr. Julie B. Wise, and she's a JLC associate. Then we have a retired admiral who is also a JLC associate sitting with us today, Terry Moulton. And I'm going to say that Vince is a retired captain that had multiple leadership roles both at headquarters and in the field. And we're happy to have all of you online with us right now. So welcome. Here's the condition. So let's say that somebody calls Me up and says, and they have, and I'll tell you my story. And particular gentleman called me up from a Fortune 50 company and he said, my boss said that I need coaching. I said, okay, let's talk about that. What do you think you need? So we had about a 30 minute discovery call and then as soon as I was over, I shifted to I now want to have another discovery call with you. But I'd like the person that is your direct report to be on the call with me. I want to hear from your direct report. What she or he thinks you need to be working on with me right now is my friend Terry Moulton. And he had exactly the same situation where he said, ray, I need you to go work with this person. I said, of course I will, yes sir. And I waited until I had an opportunity for that person and at that time Admiral Moulton to have a conversation with me about what Terry's expectations were for my coaching. What I have learned is that very often people are reluctant to do that. They're reluctant to say, let me talk to your direct report because I'm happy to have the contract, I'm happy to be coaching. This is what I love to do, it's who I am. But it seems to me the condition necessary for the coaching to have big time impact is to get that direct report, whoever you're coaching, that coachee, the direct report of the coachee online to talk about, hey, this is what I really think Ray needs. This is what I really think Mary needs. What are you hearing me say? How is that landing on you? And what are you thinking about this in the context of your own practice? Who'd like to start? But that was an engaging opening, wasn't it? Love that. So I guess not. So somebody say something.

Well, I'll start. So since you were talking about me a little bit, I think early on in the coaching world, I think you have to understand yourself, right? And understand yourself first. And once you do that, then you can start to understand others. And then that's where the, to me, the coaching starts to come in.

That's great. I think that's very true. And I had the privilege when I worked with you to be the executive coach for the person you reported to. So I was able to kind of close that loop on a regular basis and understand that sometimes the perception is reality in the short term until we do something to expand that reality a little bit. Thank you, Terry, that was great. Vince, how did my words land on you?

So I greatly appreciated what you said, Ray. And the importance of having that relationship with the coachee and the direct report. But what I was also thinking about, as you said, that was this is for a lot of people, new space, new territories. It's not something that's been very common. What's equally important and why people are uncomfortable is because they're uncertain about what that means and how they want to expose their vulnerabilities. Right. To grow, we have to kind of understand what we're not very good at so that we can strengthen that and help that work for the team. So creating an environment of trust is as equally important as having both the reportee and direct report engaged. So as you was explaining and in your opening statement, I was thinking about the importance also of creating an environment of trust to get that person to open up and to demonstrate and show the vulnerabilities which are an important part of that journey.

No, no. That's so powerful. And sometimes we may have a person that wants us to coach them who is frightened to death of their boss and doesn't want to be vulnerable to their boss. So we almost have to weigh that out ahead of time to see if are you in that level of discomfort and unhappiness. And if you are, of course I will try and help. At the same time, the most impact you're going to have is when you can create that environment of trust and vulnerability between those two individuals. Because I could show up and say, vince, I need you to coach me on these things. Then if you actually talk to my boss, he would say, what? No, no, no, he's fine in those areas. I really think he needs work here. I think if we miss that opportunity, we get in trouble. Vince, that was great. Colleen, what are you thinking?

Yeah, I'm thinking I'm hearing a couple of different things. One is it reminds me of the conversation we just finished our JLC weekly team meeting. One of the things that surfaced in that conversation was this sense of fear versus excitement. And I think just to build on a little bit what Vince said, it's that sense of, well, I've never done this. This is new Uncharted territories. Well, what does this really mean? I'm a little bit concerned if my boss is going to be on the phone with me. I'm uncomfort he could be showing up in a space of fear versus that excitement piece is how can I show up in an executive coaching conversation where we are going to align expectations so I have an understanding what my boss thinks, where he thinks I need to develop my capabilities that Is exciting to me. I want somebody to shine that blind spot because we all have them. How can you shine A different perspective so I can really look at. Oh, man. Thank you for bringing that to my attention. There is an area I did not even know perhaps, that I needed to be working on.

So. So it's brilliant that what you just said. And you immediately brought me to a system story that I live with every day because it's how I think about my own work with myself and, you know, with my young, my kids, my grandkids, my client base. So here's the story. It's dark out. There's a. You come out of a restaurant and you're alone, and you see this gentleman on his hands and knees, obviously looking for something, and he's by a parked car. And you come up and you say, hey, sir, did you lose something? Oh, I dropped my car keys. And he's out there and he's, like, all frothy, trying to get his car keys. He's right down there looking, looking, looking. And after a few minutes, you get on your knees, you look with him, and you can't find anything. And you say to the guy, so I don't understand why we can't find the keys. And he said, well, I didn't drop them here. He didn't drop them here. Where'd you drop them? I dropped them over there, where it's dark, but over here is a light. And I can look here. And I have never forgotten that story, because people are always looking where they know there's some answer, and very often they need to look in the dark to get the solution. Isn't that story a great coaching story? I mean. Oh, my God. I mean, I have lived this so, so many times. Julie, where are you on this conversation?

So when I've been working with the Navy and there's been some letters of intent to remove from office, and that has been really helpful for all of us on the team to come together and say, okay, these are the things that have been brought up. What do we need to strategically put in place and how can we show the evidence of success that those areas of concern have been met? Also, I work with the school district, and I coach their principals and administrative team all day long. And I go from one principal to the next, and the assistant superintendent sits in on these coachings. And at first, I wasn't really quite sure that that was going to work for me because I wanted them to be able to be in a safe space and to be able to share what they wanted to say. But it's been really a powerful collaborative event because the assistant superintendent can share things that maybe, I don't know because she's there on a daily basis. Right. Or I can call her out when she says things. And I can say, I'm not really quite sure that that's an effective way here. And so I sort of, you know, in a way, I'm a mediator. But at the same time, all three of us are really relying on each other to provide our best thinking so that everyone can grow, including myself and including the assistant superintendent. So it really is wonderful to collaborate with people when it comes to either planning out the coaching or actually during a coaching.

I so love that story. That is the best of possibilities where you have the top leader working with you as you help every level of leadership improve. And I sometimes it's always been true for me, when I was in a leadership position, a formal leadership position, I didn't always notice how I was landing on other things or making members of the community upset or, you know, made a parent upset because I was trying to be cool, you know, well, you know, it's not your problem, it's your kid's problem. And of course, that would go right to the superintendent's office, and I'd have to explain why I said that on and on and on. So the ability that we have to make sure that we are in some conversation with the mentee's direct report useful. I want to lean on Vince sense for a moment here, which I really think matters dramatically. I don't want to talk to the boss, to the direct report all the time. I want to just get a feel for what is of interest to that person who is the direct report so that I am not searching in the. In the light for that which is in the dark. Because sometimes one of our jobs as a coach, it's always been the same, is to make the commonplace look strange. And sometimes we don't do that. We kind of drift into, what are you already. What are you already good at? And we end up, like, focused on the current reality and solving little problems and issues in the current reality rather than helping that human being if they want us to move to a very different level. So I think this has been. This is really kind of a big deal. What are you thinking and learning right now going through this? Colleen, Start us off. What are you thinking and learning?

Sure. I just was thinking about how uncomfortable sometimes it is because I like the way I'm doing things, and things are going really well. But it's that sense of holding up the mirror consistently. So you are, you know, you're talking about your current reality, but you're also talking about, well, where is it you want to go? And I think sometimes we just. It's so much easier because this is the way I've always done it.

Right.

I'm so comfortable with this. And you mean I gotta change something? Well, what the hell, man? I like the way I'm doing things, and it's worked for me in the past. So now how come I can't stay in my comfort zone? And so I love that sense of, you know, let's hold up the mirror as a coach, ask some of those questions for them to self reflect. But plus the other pieces identify where it is. What's that next space? What does that look like for you to move to that next level of leadership?

We are guides on the side. We are walking on the path with this person if they invite us to. Right. So they can develop themselves. I love Marshall Goldsmith. I'm sorry, he's not on the speaking circuit any longer because I thought every year he gave me something new. But what he really gave to me, which I'll never forget, is a phrase that was the title of his biggest selling book, what Got yout Here Won't get you There. And what used to work probably is not going to work in this new future state that you're starting to create. That was so useful to me. And again, you have to remember this, a sensitive conversation. We are talking with leaders who are good, wonderful. They're good people. They're good leaders. If they weren't, they wouldn't be using us. They'd be using some other strategy to get them out of there. So they're using us to develop somebody who's already good. And I never want to lose sight of that because what they already do is their best. So far. This is the best they have been able to provide. And if they're interested, we can expand some horizons. We can walk on the path together. And all of a sudden, that which was unseen is now seen. We bring things from the dark to the light. I just think this little metaphor is really powerful, Julie. Thinking and learning.

Yeah, I'm just thinking about my own personal coach that I have and how I lived stressed and anxious and growing up that if I wasn't working 120%, then I wasn't working enough. And so talking to my coach about it, he really showed me, you know, other possibilities that I didn't really even know, were out there. What would my life look like if I wasn't stressed or anxious? And I was like, well, that's not possible. And he was like, you know, so that's what I really like to do is, you know, when someone comes with what their. Their truth, and to say, hmm, I wonder, what if that wasn't true? How would you show up? Or what if you didn't believe that? How would you, you know, interact or believe? Or what would you say differently if you didn't believe that was true? And just the world opens up for them, and that's so powerful and exciting to see.

So what you just said is a takeaway for me and certainly for anyone that might be listening. How would you say that differently if it wasn't true? How would you say it differently if it wasn't true? And for those of you that are listening, we all live in this space because of the diligent and disciplined effort we've given to developing our understanding of this work. Truth other than truths that you might consider spiritual or absolute or religious, truth is a moving target. There is no absolute truth other than those big spiritual, religious things that you kind of live with in another side of your life. The rest of the things that we've determined to be true were things that we convinced ourselves of being true or somebody that we really, really cared about or thought was powerful told us was true. I go back to my childhood with all these incredible, powerful people who used to tell me what I was good at and what I wasn't. And I immediately agreed with them because they were powerful and I needed to learn that the truth I had at 7, 8, 9, 18, 19, 20, late 20s, 30s, not the truth I have today. Truth has changed. All of you listening, think about what you thought was true when you were 16 or 17, and how the world and your own understanding of it has changed. Billy, that was really great. Thank you, Terry. What you're thinking and learning.

Yeah, I go back to what Colleen was saying, and I was thinking about the mirror and executive coaching is so valuable, especially for us to get these new leaders in a very new role. They transition from XO to CEO now they are in a new role. So they need to really reflect on their leadership style. And what got you here will not get you there. How do they approach it differently? Right. If you're a commanding officer, you cannot be the executive officer anymore. So it really is an opportunity to take. Take advantage of the coaching that we offer and move forward. Man, it's such an opportunity, and I hate that people list it, but it's the mirror gives you time to reflect. Look at yourself. What am I learning? How do I land on other people and what do I need to do differently?

That's fantastic. So reflection, personal reflection, produces. Produces new practical knowledge. If I don't have the time to reflect, I'm pretty much going to behave tomorrow like I behaved today. And I thought you. And it did a beautiful job with Vince talking about the impact of taking time to reflect. When you spoke to a bunch of new CEOs and XOs, it was just actually stunning. Vince, what are you thinking and learning?

Yeah. So I want to go back to Judy's comment when she talked about herself. And as she talked, it just reminded me of the importance of understanding yourself. You know, the benefits of coaching doesn't mean that you're missing something or you're doing something wrong. It's just understanding how you react and how you respond and how you may want to do that differently or in a different intentional fashion, depending on those that you lead. So Julie likes, you know, everything done in a very meticulous fashion, and those things get off schedule. It bothers her a little bit. But if she has awareness that those are her propensities, then when she's around the group, she's able to manage herself and show up to the conversation differently based upon what the team needs. And so as she talked about that, I was really reflecting and learning for myself. That, man, I had very similar traits is that I had to learn to slow my thinking down and not wear my expressions on my face when I had information that didn't align with my current thinking. So I had to be very intentional at being very and patient and getting all the voices in the room and getting all the ideas on the table before I would react and respond to that information. And that was something I had to learn through coaching. It's something that really helped me. So as I listened to my colleague, I was really thinking about, wow, I could connect with what she was saying based upon my personal experiences.

Yeah, I love it. I love it. How do I keep myself in a space of learning, Right. And not let my nonverbal, you know, give me away as I'm going through this conversation. That was beautiful. Before I push you guys into a checkout, final thoughts for the audience. So we said something a while ago. Go ahead. Go ahead, Tara.

I was just going to say. I'm sorry. I was just going to say for the audience, really, you know, executive coaching is an opportunity for you, right? As an executive coach, or as a leader, you're all alone. The executive coach allows you to have someone to just reflect, to bounce ideas off of and to give you some things that you may not have thought about already. So what an opportunity. And just encourage members in the audience.

To take, take advantage of it before holiday. To that point, Terry, I was talking with a gentleman who is a high level leader in a Fortune 50 company and what he said to me is I don't have the space to tell people how I'm feeling, what I'm thinking and how life is treating me right now in the context of my job. Because he said this is the best thing that anyone has ever provided for me, is that space that's safely dangerous space for people to just. Let me just tell you what's on my heart. I love you guys. Let's check it out. Best thing about this conversation for you was. And remember, I'm going to set the stage for the Zig Ziglar notion. Find out what people want. It could be the mentee in the direct report. Find out what people want, Help them get it. That's what we do. That's what the guides on the side. That's what we do as executive coaches. Coaches and the whole world. C suite world. I'm saying it's near 90% all have executive coaches. They all have them. Sometimes they don't admit it because they got to be know everything and be powerful, but they all have them. That's just fascinating to me. Let's just check out. I'll call us by name to get us out on time. So let's start with you, Terry. Best thing about this conversation was I.

Think the best thing is the reflection with the mirror. I mean, I go back to the mirror. I really appreciate what Colleen said and it really is an opportunity to look at yourself and to see how you're landing on other people. And so the mirror sort of resonates with me today. And I'm out.

Thanks, brother. I had a person that I told that story to about the car keys and she said I do that with my makeup. Sometimes I leave the light off because I'm a little uncomfortable with how I look. So I don't quite turn it on as bright as I could so that I don't really notice my, quote, imperfections, end quote. So thank you so much for that. Julie. What got you?

I think what Terry said and I'm thinking about transitions. A lot of us move from one job to a higher level and there's a lot of pressure there because we don't know who to talk to. We don't know how to say I don't know what I'm doing. And so if you're in a transition, I think that that's one of the. Even as it personally too. Right. Even as you are thinking about retiring, that's a difficult transition. Having a child, that's a strange transition. Your kid's going to college. Any sort of transition in your life where it presents something new and you are not sure how to show up differently or how to handle it, that is an opportunity for you to reach out to a coach and, you know, just have a discovery call. Because sometimes Even just those 30 minutes is enough for you to get on a different track or have a different perspective. And I'm out.

Yeah. So those of you that are listening, if you would like a discovery call with us, you can call us, text us at the website. You can have a 30 minute on us. Absolutely on us. And no expectation for you to buy anymore. Call with any one of us that are on this call right now. And if you'd like to get on a discovery call with us, simply contact us. We would absolutely love it if you did. Best thing about this conversation, Vince.

So Brad, I like a good story and you know, you got me with the looking for the key and the question about why we're looking over here because light is good when the problem's over there. So I like that analogy. And so the best part of the conversation was how that one story opened up the avenue for many other facets of discussion. And I find that good stories really helps break down barriers for people, help people begin to open the aperture to kind of see. And so I liked how we entered our conversational journey today because we had a really, really applicable story. That was the best part for me and I'm out.

Thank you. I keep reminding myself that the language of leadership is storytelling. And Julie regularly reminds us to listen to Nancy Duarte, which you can listen to her on YouTube. She is wonderful how she shows all the components of great storytelling. Years and years ago I did a conference in New Orleans about storytelling. Just a two and a half or three day conference on how to improve your storytelling capabilities. And all I had to do is say just go for a walk and talk to anybody from New Orleans. They've got stories. Bring one back. And then we took whatever story came back and we refined it. But it's just such power in leaders learning how to tell great stories.

Colleen yeah, I think for me it's just that the power of when you're engaging in a coaching relationship, when you want to support someone is not beginning and showing up with you know what, Terri, I noticed this, this and this. And I really think that you need to do X and start to coach them. I love this sense of because I've done that a couple times and let me tell never works. Right now I'm pushing and advocating for something when I don't even know what is Terry, what's his perspective on what he wants to work towards? So I'll just go back to that sense of the importance of asking that quality questions, generative questions where you truly are holding up the mirror so that particular person can reflect on and you can learn from their perspective what are they aspiring to. You can match that with aligning the expectations of their supervisor. And now you have a pretty more accurate understanding of what is that desired future state.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. And I went to a seminar that my buddy Marshall Goldsmith, actually I went to a few that he put on and when somebody gave you feedback, your responsibility was to say thank you, not to sign decided was right or wrong. Because how many times have you coached somebody and they said, well, you know Terry, you know, you know, you really, I think you might. No, I'm not. It's almost like a minute immediately push you back like, you know, so building that safely dangerous space is really critical. And reminding myself always what got me here won't get me there. And you all know I am behaving that way every day because I'm trying to learn what I can do to make myself better and help the team grow to the degree they choose to grow. So ladies and gentlemen, thank you for being with us at JLC Media. We wish you the best in the holiday season. I hope you enjoyed this in learning discussion with inside JLC people about the stuff we actually work on. Take care everyone. Be well. Sincerest thanks for listening to this episode of the Everyday Leadership Conversations podcast. The Jorgensen Learning center offers a variety of programs for individuals and organizations to enhance their communication and leadership skills. To find out more about programs and upcoming webinars, check out our events page@gojlc.com.