Inside JLC: Staying the Course: Firmness in Leadership

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for joining us here at JLC Media. My name is Ray, founder of jlc. With me is Colleen Sullivan, chief operating officer at jlc. And one of our most sought after executive coaches is with us today, Joe Marshall. He is working with senior leadership in military medicine. And I think you're going to enjoy this particular piece today. We're going to talk about something that we talk about all the time. Many people have talked about the work of conversational leadership as soft skills, and that is the ability to use conversation to surface the best thinking in the room, to learn from others, and to be very clear about not walking in with one idea that we think is the only idea, that we can have lots of little pieces to it. And all the disciplines that we practice produce committed actions. And leaders need to understand that the ability to constantly close the loop on promises and committed actions, and certainly the first person you do that with is yourself, is a way of being very. It's a rich term to be firm in your leadership. Not heavy handed, not negative, but just firm. We promised this two weeks ago and today is the deadline. Help me understand where we are and if we're not there, help me understand what we're going to do differently right now to take care of this deadline that we put in place. There's so many ways to talk about this and I think that we. I think you'll enjoy this conversation. So Colleen and Joe are going to tee it up, but before they do so did I miss anything, Colleen? Did I miss anything, Joe, in setting the stage for this conversation?

I don't think so. But the one thing that I'll add is this is our inside jlc. So, you know, earlier, in fact, we were having a conversation about this topic just 30 seconds ago, and I said, this is rich, valuable stuff. And I thought it would be great on our podcast. So just to let our listeners know that these are the types of conversations as associates that we have with internally all the time. Because we're hearing these, we're hearing this language, and we're hearing this surface with our clients.

That's great, right? And those of you listening, there may be a touch of profanity on occasion. Not by me. So turn it off if you don't want to hear that. Joe, how did I do setting the stage so far? And how did Colleen do connecting to inside jlc?

I think it's good. I think the topic of how do you combine what you believe, what you perceive, what you have been trained, has strong leadership skills. How do you combine Those with the things that we're talking about and use them as a toolbox to get the truly fine finish that you want in your organization.

Yeah, talk a little bit about fine finish. What would that fine finish look like to you, Joe, as a leader, and you are a leader, you have led thousands. What would that look like a fine finish?

Well, I think. I think many times leaders are in organizations and they spend some amount of time fantasizing about how much better the organization would be if only I had Albert Einstein in charge of operations or only if I had Dale Carnegie in charge of hr.

Anybody but old Mary. Right? Yeah.

And I appreciate that. And I've spent a fair amount of my own time fantasy about that. But the fantasy should not take you away from the reality of the team that you have and working with the team that you have. And how do you figure out how you tap into their enthusiasms? How do you use their energies to commingle with yours and your vision to maximize the results that you're trying to get? And so none of this says that there aren't difficult conversations. None of this says that there aren't people who, in your organization who could be a poor fit or a bad fit, meaning that they're always going to be counter to your goals. And so then you have to figure out, is the juice worth the squeeze, as we say, is doing the maintenance on that person or the repair work from interactions between the person and others, is that going to be worth keeping them around for what value they provide to the organization? Again, this is the function of leadership, is to evaluate these kinds of relationships and make these kinds of decisions. Again, we're all human, we're all imperfect. How do you bring the team together to produce as many positive results as you can and keep them all enthused and pointed in the direction that you're going?

I'm constantly amazed at leaders who take a group and achieve something the group couldn't achieve before you showed up, Joe or Colleen showed up. I have seen leaders, coaches, managers show up in a system and on the way in, everybody saying, oh, you don't want to go there. Those people are crazy. They're going to be too much. You're not going to get anything done. Whatever they do, they do something magical that takes that same group of people, same group, and turn it into a winner. So my best story, and I want you to react to this one, Colleen and Joe, was the story about the CEO of Avis. He took the job. And when he took the job, Avis, the car Rental place was way, way, way down there in ranking. And during his tenure as CEO, they came up with the we're not number one, but we try harder, something like that, which was a great phrase. Right. When he got there, the exiting CEO took him around, introduced him to the leadership team and they shook hands and then they went back and had a private chat and said, this one over here has got to go. This one over here has no ability to do well. Can't do it. Just all they do is cause me trouble on and on and on. And really identified all of the flaws and problems within most of the members of the leadership team.

Unbeknownst to them.

Sorry, unbeknownst to them. Right. Years later, years later, Avis had turned the corner and was moving up in the ranking of customers using their products, using their rental cars. And the company was absorbed by another company and a CEO took over the new place. And this gentleman that was CEO is now leaving and does the same thing, wanders around, introduces them to the people. And the entering CEO says to the leaving CEO, what a leadership team. This is some of the best I've ever seen. Four or five of those people could be CEOs tomorrow of a business that of the same size of ours. These are magnificent people. What a great leadership team you have. P.S. no change in the personnel. For me, it was one of the most impactful stories because I was still in leadership at that time, formal leadership, thinking. These people, some of these people on my leadership team, I could just get on. I didn't realize that what I did and the way I did it in terms of keeping the most important thing in front of us, change stuff. And this gentleman, I mean, isn't that a great story, Colleen? Tell me about that. You've heard that before, I think.

Yeah, no, I have. And I think it's a great example of how our own personal mental, mental models create a culture. Right. Our language creates a culture. And so what that gentleman did was he was transferring his mental model of these individuals onto this other person. Right. And he didn't see the same thing. He didn't see the same thing. And I think when we talk, and I love what Joe said earlier in the introduction about really refining our leadership. And I think that with some of those leaders who are refined, have the self awareness to recognize how are my mental models limiting me from seeing things or how are they creating a scotoma or blinding me so I'm not necessarily seeing someone and their capabilities for how they truly are.

That's beautiful. Thank you Joe, what are you thinking?

So I'm thinking about something I heard in 1969 from. From Master Chief Machinist Mate, Submarine Service, Walter E. Leedy, who was training me in the ways of the Navy. And one of the things he said to me was that there are no bad crews, but there are bad captains.

Oh, wow.

And it turns out that's an old saying in the Navy. But the thing you describe with Avis is very much the condition in the Navy that many times there are units that are lower performing or not performing at their potential. The expectation in leadership is that, again, the rotation of the person in charge will have a dynamic effect and a cathartic effect on the organization. And so I think that's some of the wisdom of the rotation of the leadership. I mean, there's pros and there's cons, but this is, I think, part of the pro. Because I think every again, new organization or every new commanding officer, when he comes into an organization that is new to him, is thinking about how do I optimize this organization? And so this being willingness to be open, to be vulnerable. I will tell you, I had a. I had a CO Of a ship. Tell me one time that when he came to the ship, he felt like it was a tremendous group of personalities, and it was, you know, very dedicated, and they were very focused and very professional. But frankly, they were all in the wrong jobs. So the ops guys wanted to be in engineering, and the engineering guys wanted to be in weapons, and, you know, all of that kind of stuff. So. So he. So sensing this in the group, you know, and fearlessly, he said, tell me what? Okay, so for all of you, I want you to write me a little note and tell me what job you would like to have. And so. And so then. So he took that information aboard, and then he evaluated, you know, the pros and cons of the moves, but then he proceeded to execute that and move those people into the jobs that they really wanted. And the command was hugely successful. So, again, none of this is a magic key. None of this is, oh, you just do this, and then you stay in your cabin and everything will be fine. No, it's always about management. But again, having some fundamentals, right?

Important.

And much of the fundamentals come around communication. Part of my current work with people is the place where we are now is COVID 19. There's various variants, and it's surging, and then it's declining, and then it's surging again and declining. And so part of my coaching for people is to say, be present, be out there, don't be a void. Because you are seen as the leadership team. The expectation is that you have more sources of information. You talk to people outside the command, you talk to people above the command in the chain of command, and therefore you obviously know more if you don't say anything. Then again, the very human interpretation of that is it's bad and they don't want to tell us or there's something going on that they don't want to share. And so trust is such an important element of leadership, and transparency is so important in leadership. Well, okay, so Joe, I hear that, but then the truth is I don't really have a lot of wisdom. But still, you can share what you know and you can engage the audience in what they think or what they know and guide that conversation in a more effective way.

Yeah, I mean, at some level, that's what it means to help the team win. Share what you know. Do your best to bring your personal, practical knowledge forward because you have some. So often I think people show up and they are in awe of the position, and if they stay in awe of the position too long, they'll never actually be the position. They'll be on the side of it, looking all the time or thinking, what would Joe have done? What would Colleen have done? What would this other person that I admire have done? This is really a special piece, I think, from the standpoint of what we do all the time. We are constantly coaching people on how to communicate more effectively. And this is where the soft skill changes to the hard skill. And I want you both to play with the this in the sense of soft skills. And I don't really like the jargon, I don't really like the phrase, but in the sense of it, somebody said, well, show us how to run a meeting. Well, it's not just run the meeting. It's about producing outcomes from the meeting. And Joe says, all the time. That's one of the things people produce every week or meetings. What's the outcome of the meeting? And if there is an outcome, it needs to be in the form of a commitment, a promise to action. And you may get to that promise to action by following some of our techniques. What really matters is closing the loop on the promises. And that's what I want you both to talk about for a minute. Why is it so important that when somebody says at the end of a meeting, okay, by next Thursday, I'll have, da, da, da, Whatever they say they're going to do and have done, why Is it important to hang on to that? And our experience, ladies and gentlemen that are listening, is meetings end and the meeting's over. No one remembers what anyone promised. So this ability for you to become exceedingly disciplined, exceedingly disciplined and holding onto those promises, that is definitely firmness in leadership. That is not heavy handed. That's an expectation for effectiveness as a leader. Colleen, what are you thinking? Right on that one. Then I'm going to write to Joe.

Yeah, well, I'm just thinking about how a lot of our clients, they reach out to us and they say, can you help with accountability? I remember this one gentleman saying, is there an app or is there some way, you know, to help me and my team be more accountable? And I said, well, I'd love to observe one of your meetings because the intention and purpose of, I mean, how many meetings are there held, honestly, across the country? I know we were looking at numbers and this was pre Covid. Probably there are more being held now. It was like 95% of an executive time, executive's time is spent in meetings. Well, the purpose and intention of those meetings is to get the work done, is to have the conversation so we can ensure we're surfacing everyone's thinking, making the most informed decisions, and we're producing evidence that we're moving towards what it is we're trying to accomplish. Well, without creating that space, without surfacing people's committed actions and then looping them through to the next meeting. We're human and we forget. Right. And a lot of times then they get lost. So many times with our clients, that's one of the pieces, really an artifact is you're meeting minutes. How many times before you move from an agenda item, are you really writing down who committed to what and by when? The other part is bringing it forward to the next meeting. That's truly where that accountability piece lives. And it's not really magical and it's not very sexy, but it's just write it down and bring it back forward to the next meeting.

That's perfect. Joe, what are you thinking?

Yeah, so I think this thing that accountability that Colleen touched on is an important part of being an effective leader. So I think many times we tend to think of this process of keeping people accountable as kind of onerous or difficult or embarrassing, when the truth is it is the essence of running the organization. Nobody wants a job. Everybody wants a calling. Everybody wants to be part of an organization where they contribute a major part and where they feel like the organization is alive and the organization is able to See challenges, challenges and move toward those challenges and answer those challenges. So that, you know, being part of that kind of a dynamic organization, very much that part, a major part of that is what I'm trying to say is being accountable and so understanding that, all right, if we sit and have a meeting and we agree that we're going to do something, that then we hold each other accountable. And so, and so many times when you say, well, keep minute, minutes of the meeting, that engenders, you know, visions of, okay, 12 pages of every word that everybody. It's not a transcript. And what I used to say in the organizations where I worked was, I want a one page. Okay, we held a meeting to talk about corpsman training. And, and these are the things that were decided that, you know, the chief medical officer is going to do this and the command master chief is going to do that and the XO is going to do this and that. It's, you know, provided by date certain. And as Colleen said, that then the next time you meet on that, that's the place where you pick up the threads and, and so, and so the ability to pick up those threads and again, not to do it in a hostile way, not to do it in a mean way, not to do it in a way that seeks to embarrass someone, but to say, okay, so two weeks ago, Ray, we met and talked about corpsman training to go on with my example, and you were going to go off and do some coordination with some external entities and come back with a plan on how to do this. So what you're telling me now, Ray, is that you haven't done any of that. Okay, so this is where again, going back to some of the skills that we teach become important. So is it necessary in the meeting to jump down Ray's throat and really be very pointed in criticism of what Ray did and didn't do in the last two weeks? No, I don't think that's helpful. Again, if you're going to have a personal issue with Wraith and I think you need to have a private conversation with Ray. That's, that's the purview for that. But, but I think it's, it's important for the group to go, okay, wow, look, the, the CEO is holding Ray accountable for. The CEO wants to know what's going on here. So, so, hey, we are part of a living, you know, dynamic organization and there is follow up and there is accountability and oh, look, Ray is saying that because of, you know, the snowstorms and Covid and other things that he wasn't able to get to it. So, so, so now look at the boss saying, okay, I understand those things, but these are still the first steps that we must achieve. And so are there resources that you need or is there something that I can do to help? You know, okay, then I'm expecting by this time next week you will have be in this place. So again, I think many people do this in some way, but many times it's clunkier, many times it perhaps has a meaner streak in it. Many times it's not as collegial or supportive. And then that gets secondary and tertiary agendas going that are not helpful to the main goal.

Joe, what you just described is beautiful. Those were in learning questions, not in judging questions. And there's a big difference between those two and my experience with leaders is they get anxious. They're nervous about challenging somebody for not getting something done. So they drift into this judgment side of things because they want to be okay with themselves about the fact that Ray didn't accomplish it. So I need to kind of kick his ass a little bit. No, you don't. Just by asking the question and closing the loop on the promise that was made, the entire organization now knows the boss is personally accountable to check on promises that were made the previous week. Oh, my God. That is a. I have a woman I work with in Pennsylvania actually, and the first time she did this, she was so nervous about it. So nervous. She was wondering what was going to happen. And after she stopped in the beginning of the meeting, they did a check in. And then they went around to each of the people that promised something from the previous meeting. She said it was like you could hear a pin drop in the room. And when the meeting ended, everyone came to her except the one or two that didn't accomplish something and said, that was really good. Thanks for doing that. I appreciate it. And it like spread through the organization instantly, within minutes that if you make a promise in this meeting, expect the boss to ask you how you did. The other thing that's an interesting side effect or unintended consequence is people stop bullshitting you. They stop telling you, oh, yeah, by next week I'll get this done. Because no one ever really checks. So I can say anything and no one checks. Well, what happened over time is people were making. They were not making these kind of offhanded promises. They were being far more focused about what they could and couldn't do. And I also love, Joe, that you said, what resources do you need? Did you have enough resources to accomplish this. What we do as leaders broker resources. And that was. Everything you just did there in that little role play, was beautiful, Joe. Anything I missed, Joe?

No, I don't think so. I think again, the ability to go through that is important and is necessary, but also does not take up a lot of time and also does not have to be the main focus of the meeting again, in many of the organizations I've been in, these are quick vignettes. Okay. Two weeks ago, Ray, we said we're going to do this. Where are you on that? Okay, you give your status report. If you BS me, I'm going to turn on you because you're going to say, oh, well, I've been trying to call them, but I can't get a call back. Oh, really? I'll call the boss. Who do I need to call? You know, give me their phone number. Oh, no, no, I don't want you to do that. Well, yeah, now you're telling me I never really contacted anybody. And you going straight to the top is only going to come back on me and embarrass the organization and embarrass me. And so you can play a lot of vignettes out of that.

You can.

But again, the idea that. Okay, all right, so understand there's been complications. There's been. But I want to make sure we are all on board with the fact that we agreed these are the key things and we assigned them to Ray. And so. And so we've got to get to the next point. So. So then if it comes around, you know, to the next meeting or the next week, and there's still no progress on that, you know, then it's a little different conversation.

Sure.

Then. Then it's like, okay, we're not moving forward on this, and. And I'm disappointed in that. And then, as I just did, you let the silence help you. Okay? You let that sink in around the room. I'm disappointed because we, you know, this is a key task. This is a key area. We haven't been able to move forward. I'm pretty disappointed that we haven't done anything on this now in the last three weeks, four weeks, however long it's been. So, you know, look down, you know, look at your papers, look at your watch, you know, you know, you know, drum your fingers on the table, whatever your personal thing is to indicate that, okay, you're turning this over in your mind because you are. Because you're thinking about, okay, is this beyond the organization somehow? And you're giving the opportunity for that individual who owns that action item to step up and say, okay, yeah, I haven't been able to get it done so far, but here's what I'm going to do. Here's my game plan. This is what I'm doing.

Yeah.

And again, this goes back to that living, breathing, dynamic organization that people want to be a part of.

Sometimes I made promises I couldn't fulfill because I didn't know how. And I think if you hold people to this, if you hold yourself accountable and responsible to close the loop constantly, you will find out where somebody needs development. Otherwise. Otherwise we'll never know. And you also made another point that we in our company, if you're listening, guys, this for us is a big deal. Try is a form of commitment, but it is the lowest. Try is a form of commitment, but it is the lowest. I'm going to try and get that done this week. Joe, that's bullshit. And the good leaders, they have a very good crap detector and they'll say, thank you for the try part, but we're not going to try and work through the door. So tell me what you're going to do to accomplish the expectation that was in space. This is really just powerful stuff, guys. You were great.

Joe, if I can add one other thing, Simon Sinek has a little talk about this that is very interesting. And he did some work with Seal Team 6, who of course gets a lot of impossible missions that they perform and perform well. And he was interested in, well, how do you get a team of the best of the best? I thought this was very interesting. He said essentially what the SEALs told him is that for the individuals in the whole SEAL organization, Again, Seal Team 6 is just part of that whole organization. So how do you get the best of the best in the Seal Team 6? What they do is they essentially draw a graph. And the graph is the X and Y axis is performance and trust. Obviously, the people you would want to have on your team are all high performance people in whom you have maximum trust. But the world isn't that way. It forces you into a little bit of a. A little bit of a dichotomy of, okay, what do I value more, performance or trust? And the interesting thing is that in the SEAL Team world, what they told him is that they would prefer to have someone who is less of a performer but completely trustworthy.

Trustworthy.

Yeah, trustworthy. And trustworthy defined as, I can trust you with my wife, I can trust you with my kids, I can trust you to take care of my affairs if something were to happen to me. But of course, the interesting thing is that in government, and I think in most of business, we spend a lot of time measuring performance and no time measuring trust.

Great.

And we have no. So, again, this comes back to the leader's ability to make these kind of assessments of how trustworthy are you. And I think when people understand how important trust is in being a part of the organization, they then realize that, okay, me getting the job done over the next two weeks, that's because the organization, not just the CEO or the commanding officer, whoever is trusting me to get that done. And I. And that's a sacred thing, and I do not want to violate that trust.

I love it, Joe. I just love it. This is beyond this particular podcast. We need to talk about trust and trustworthiness. Again. It is a key component for success. So whenever I say, you know, and I do say this a lot, what's my real. My major job? Help the team win. How do I help the SEAL team win? I need to perform well, but I also need to make sure they know how trustworthy I am. And I got their back. And I got every. I got all of their back should something unfortunate and sad happen. The worst possible thing. Joe, that was a great reminder of the distinction between performance and trust, because I got a high performer, but I can't trust you. I'm not sure I want to. I'm not sure I want to. You. That's a powerful, powerful piece. Colleen, what had this all land on you? We're about to check out here, so we can send Joe back to work.

Sure. Yeah. I think what resonated with me most is really the impact on the team. We talked a lot about leaders, and I think that Joe gave some great examples and talk tracks and scenarios of, you know, how do you. How do you. What does accountability look like in a meeting?

Yeah.

The other piece that I think you brought up, Ray, was think about the other people in your team that are sitting there watching this and noticing, and they're going, wow. Joe follows up on what he says. Joe ensures that everyone is performing, and those committed actions are surfaced every time like clockwork. So he is ensuring that everyone is bringing their best forward every day. And, boy, as. As a. As a board member, as a member of that team, I am grateful because I'm sitting over there going, well, Ray hasn't been pulling his weight, and I'm busting my ass over here. So I think that some of these things. Just think about it, the different perspectives, whether it's the leader perspective, but also from the perspective of a team member. Because I've been sitting in many of those meetings and to your point, Ray, you had a great example of someone who embraced these theories, methods and tools and boy, they said the team member has come out and said, I couldn't be more grateful that the leader is stepping up and using these to ensure everyone is, is focused and completing their committed actions. So it has a huge impact on not only the leader, but the team dynamic and the team's ability to really collaborate effectively and get it done.

Something happens to the team dynamic when the leader models trustworthiness and also, but at the end of the meeting when somebody writes down, here were the promises, that is powerful behavior. And it doesn't have to be the boss. It could be the boss's secretary or executive assistant, could be anybody that writes them down. The point is, next time we meet, when we start, after we check in, item number one, after we check in and check on safety of everybody, item number one, how do we do with our committed actions? How did we do with our promises? That's beautiful. Colleen. Joe, final thoughts for the audience.

Yeah, so I think sometimes when we talk about this stuff, if you're on the downside of the curve or your organization doesn't practice any of these things, you're a little overwhelmed about where to start. And I think it's always good. What I coach people on is pick something that you like that resonates with you and start again. It's, there's, there's, you know, you, if your resolution was to get fit, you know, you wouldn't go to the gym and attempt to pick up a 500 pound weight and then declare failure and never go to the gym again again. You, you know, you know, so, so pick up two five pound weights and, and do some things with those and then next time maybe you can try a little more or something a little different. And so sometimes we talk about these things in a very idealized state or a perfect way. Again, management is about doing the best you can with the tools you have today. And so I think that's, that, that's the message is if you see that you're, you're not using some of these tools, then pick something, get started, think about it, come back to it, practice more, practice deeper, and don't give up.

You know, I think that not giving up, that you just said Joe, is so important because what defines me in terms of my practice as a leader. Failures. Had lots of them. Right. If I just accepted the failures as failures at face value and moved on to another failure. I would continue to fail more and more effectively unless I accepted it as the normal part of leading and developing myself so that I can learn from things that I stumbled over or didn't accomplish. It is a way forward. That's a simple one thing you could practice. Remember the next time that something doesn't go the way you expected, you can step back and criticize it or yourself, or you can say, what did I learn? It changes everything when failure presents an opportunity for you to learn as a leader. Final thoughts?

Colleen yeah, no, I really like that. Just pick one thing and start. And if you're not quite sure which thing, there's plenty of podcasts that we've done previously where we talk about some of these theories, methods and tools that both Ray and Joe have mentioned. So I encourage you to go to our website and pick a podcast just to listen in. Also, there's lots of information that you can find so you can make a choice, which thing would you like to implement first? And then I encourage you to continue. Give that one a go. And then encourage you to continue to add to your toolbox just to really ensure you are doing a couple things. We talked about creating that environment of trust. And the second big piece that I really resonated with me is always create space for the conversation and I'm out.

And my. Thank you both. Great checkouts. Those of you that are listening, we have lots of techniques, right? I can send you a book filled with techniques. It's the application of the technique using your own personal, practical knowledge about how to effectively lead. That's what matters most. That's what matters most. There's books and books. I mean, I got a whole office full of books with techniques on them. It's the application, the personal practical knowledge that we develop with the people that we coach and work with so that they understand the application of a technique and where it's applied is far more important than understanding the technique. You know, otherwise, if you got a hammer, everything looks like a nail. So, ladies and gentlemen, I'm so glad you were with us today. Thank you for sharing this, your time with us. Your greatest asset of this century, I think, is your time. We also offer a discovery conversation if you'd like to talk with Joe or Colleen or me, we offer an absolutely free on us discovery conversation. So if you have some things you're thinking about in leadership that you'd like to learn more about now that you heard us talk about this, this is an Inside Talk an insider talk? There's something you'd like us to do with you or for you, Please, please call us. You can find us@gojlc.com if we're still surfacing around the holidays. I hope you had a great holiday season, and I hope whatever intentions or resolutions you created, which is a whole other conversation, are unfolding in a good way for you. Take care, everyone. Thank you. Sincerest thanks for listening to this episode of the Everyday Leadership Conversations podcast. The Jorgensen Learning center offers a variety of programs for individuals and organizations to enhance their communication and leadership skills. To find out more about programs and upcoming webinars, check out our events page@gojlc.com.