Inside JLC: Sustaining Change Through Story and Vision

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for coming back and joining us in this second piece of a podcast from JLC Media. It's all about everyday leadership conversations. And I'm excited about this one. The last podcast, we talked about language and culture and how incredibly interconnected they are. Change one, you change the other. And this time we're going to talk about the fact that somebody didn't really change their language and their culture and kind of just did a very superficial methodology in making change happen. As you know, we're known in the industry as change leadership people. We're all executive coaches, all certified executive coaches. And many people know us and think about us, about helping with change. So we're going to start today with a little story, and I look forward to that story. And as we listen to the story, I want those of you out there really trying hard to recognize how I want to change this culture, I want to change things. And then we get stuck and we're going to talk a little bit about how we got stuck and what we could do differently to change that. So with that said, what did you just hear me say? We're going to work on and tell the audience who you are. Who'd like to start?

I'll start. So I'm Julie B. Wise. I am a coach and a consultant for JLC for the past four years. And one of the things I heard is how we can approach change with our language, which is what we talked about yesterday or in last podcast. But we also can do it just with subtle moves as well to get people to slowly ease into the change. Doesn't have to be this huge change. It could be a slow, subtle change.

Well said. It's almost like once I have some opportunity to internalize the change and the three of you speak about that really well. Reflection is a way to develop new personal, practical knowledge. And very often we're so busy, we don't give ourselves opportunity and time to do that. Thank you so much, Julie. Colleen, what did you hear and what are you thinking?

Yeah, I think what resonated with me. Well, Colleen Sullivan, and I am an associate as well, executive coach, working with JLC for quite some time. And, you know, just listening to you, Julie, and hearing kind of you set the stage for this conversation. Ray just really makes me think about change can be difficult and it can be a small change that you're asking people to do unless you're very intentional about the change and you deeply understand the intended purpose and the why behind the change. Sometimes I can comply and do what you told me to do. But truly, that change that is sustainable occurs when someone really has a deep understanding and of the desired result.

I love that. It's almost like, how do we get it in our core? And sometimes I can actually listen to great presentations. Wonderful knowledge transfer, Right. And then I leave that presentation excited about what I learned and heard, and I don't take the time to deepen my personal, practical knowledge so I can take that great idea and put it into my own practice. That's really cool. Thank you. Joe, who are you and what are you hearing?

I'm a coach here with JLC and an associate. What I heard you talking about there, Ray, and the others, is about how do we have sustainable change and how.

Do we leverage that.

I think many times from my time in government as a senior executive, I.

Think many times we are seeking change.

As a result of a complaint or something that we don't want to have happen in the future. We're not so much driven by a.

Positive vision of how the organization should.

Evolve as we are doing some kind of damage control on something that's happened in the past that maybe caused a lot of trouble or maybe got close to causing a lot of trouble. And so we're more and more wrapped.

Up in how do we treat those.

Immediate symptoms than we are in thinking about the larger hole.

Joe and I were working with a client together, and Joe started this with a provocation in our conversation. And the gentleman we were working with said, yeah, I'm a wonderful firefighter. I can put him out anywhere, anytime. And then. And he finished saying that. Joe said to him, who's starting the fires? And it just changed the entire conversation because we could retire being wonderful firefighters, or we could think about what is it in the system that's producing a pattern of fires. So really good, good beginning, gang. And those of you that are listening, I know you're already thinking and scratching your head about, wow, what is he? I've been in that space. I'm good at putting out fires. How do I find the systemic cause of a pattern of fires? Because that's where the big work lives. We can all put out fires. The people on this podcast that you're listening to have been in leadership roles. We know how to put out a fire. Sometimes we don't have the opportunity and the time. Go look at that system issue. So really good. Really good. So I told you before we broke last time, if you listened to the last podcast, I was going to lean on Joe and we're going to do this and the names will be changed to protect the innocent. So we will not tell you who these people are, but you will probably all recognize this story as so real. And then we're going to lean into options, things we could have done differently to deal with this particular, which I think is a true reality. Wonderful story about a group of people interested in achieving a change. With that said, my friend, tell us the story.

Okay, so this is a story that revolves around something that happened in the Department of Defense. And I think anybody who's listening to this who has worked in the Department of Defense has had this experience. And I can tell you this occurs fairly frequently in the culture and sometimes it goes more successfully, but we'll talk about that in the each's. When I was working in the Department of the Navy, the Secretary of Defense at the time said, hey, I would.

Like to have a certain readiness level.

For a certain type of military hardware.

And he really drove this home. He set a date specific.

He said, you know, our levels are currently just too low. We have a lot of this type of hardware and these, these platforms should be ready to go a lot.

Most of them should be ready to.

Go at any time. And frankly, I think through, through just.

Kind of time and the large number.

Of this particular type of platform that we're around over time, it was kind of a median level of readiness. And the Secretary wanted it to be clearly up here. So the change we're talking about, if I can use my hands, was we.

Were at about here. If this was the maximum readiness, we were here.

And he wanted it to be more like it here. As usually happens in DoD, when you have something that comes from the very top people, people spring to, they do.

A lot of internal assessments, they do.

Some soul searching, but they also look externally to see where they can get outside benchmarks or outside help to come in. And again, I think we all recognize that looking outside can be very helpful because it can give you some best practices, it can serve as a shortcut.

Into some better ideas or better approaches.

But in this particular case, the contractor that came in was very experienced, knew a lot about this area, and was able right away to lay down some.

Benchmarks and say, well, how do you.

Do this and how do you do that? Let's go to the field, let's go to some places where you do critical activities and measure and inspect. It would be a surprise to absolutely.

No one who again, who has worked.

This effort in the Department of Defense, about what did they find? Well, they found that management and leadership.

Had taken their eye off the ball.

That they were looking at things and evaluating certain things.

But were those really the drivers?

And in many cases, the answer was no. There was considerable amount of effort that went into logistics, logistics support, because those are things that drive your ability to use other things efficiently. And if those things weren't properly prepared, and they were not, then, well, what.

More needs to be done in that arena?

Focused use of resources, Say, all right, if we've hired people with certain amount.

Of skills, are they really focused on this job?

Or somehow have we had dilution where people with those skills have gone off on other tasks? So that kind of soul searching resulted in improvements. And indeed, on this Secretary of Defense goal, we got very close and in fact hit the target for the improvement.

By the date that was specified.

But then, of course, the question was, ah, but is it sustainable? Can you do this in the long term? This is where I think many times in the Department of Defense, it becomes a good discussion to have because business certainly has motivations.

Usually their motivations are around the bottom.

Line or more efficient processes, and they are willing to stake a lot on.

Those processes being changed and on that.

Change being permanent or being evaluated constantly going forward for further improvement. In the Department of Defense, many times we lack that kind of base motivation.

So we go, oh, wouldn't it be.

A good idea if we did this? Like so and so, yes, many hosannas and concurrents, and we think we should.

Move in that direction.

But then after a while, particularly with the personnel rotation that goes on, people don't see the cultural need, and so.

They begin to drift away from that.

Back to other things that were not efficient or are new inefficiencies. Let's think of it that way. So again, I think this is not an uncommon experience, and I think many times it is useful to reach to others and get benchmarks. But as Julie said in the opening, many times change is just about simple steps, doing things that we already know.

That need to be done.

But perhaps we're hesitant because of cultural issues or other issues, and then step wise, bringing on more and more change that lead you in a new effort.

So the story is we probably can all attach something that happened in our leadership world where we felt, sensed, heard the same story. Colleen, how did that land on you and what are you thinking now, especially around this idea of culture and language? What are you thinking?

Yeah, I'm thinking that I really like the last thing that Joe laid on the table, how keeping change simple is important. If in a culture you're Trying to especially DOD some of these big, big, large organizations. If people first don't understand and see a picture, a nice vision of what is that particular change and what is that future state look like? If they don't see that or if, as Joe mentioned, they keep shifting, what does that picture look like and not everyone in the system is enrolled in it and truly understands, then it is very difficult to do some of these simple things because people kind of get lost. Right? So with these change efforts in the culture, how can we ensure we are communicating, at least the senior leaders are communicating it and using the language that creates a shared vision of what it is, where it is they're going, and what it is they're trying to accomplish, I think is really critical and key because you do want to keep it simple. But people can't be enrolled into something and shift and change if they don't know what it is you're trying to do.

So you just picked up on a really important part of this conversation today. Joe talked about they went out and found somebody to coach them on how to do things differently, how to have different benchmarks, and they were being held to that in the short term, especially because it was a big ask of the Department of Defense. The Secretary said, we need this and it's very important. So there was motivation to do it. And you just laid on the table something that I think is almost another opportunity for us to talk together. The four of us, we've seen lots of people write down vision statements and have pictures and, you know, here's our core mission, here's our, you know, whatever, we write all this stuff down, the real question is, can we tell a compelling story about the end state? And if we don't tell a compelling story about the end state, almost anything that you do is okay, especially for a short period of time. The other thing that Joe laid on the table, which I will never forget, how leadership shifts and changes quite dramatically in DoD, and sometimes when you come to get onboarded, you don't always get the compelling story with the onboarding. You just get things you're supposed to do. Here's what you're responsible for, here's all that kind of checklist stuff. And we never not that's too hyperbolic. Rarely do we help transfer the compelling story to the new person that's coming on board. Joe, this has just been great. Colleen, thank you. Julie, what you thinking first?

I'm thinking about that I hear that the directive came from the top, and I think that happens a lot with some of my clients, the top may say, I don't care what you do, just figure it out. And so then the directive comes from the middle managers, and nobody's listening to the middle managers. And the top doesn't know what's happening other than there isn't any change happening. And so one of the things I think that was really important, which goes to Colleen's point, is that, you know, there was a shared vision, there was shared communication. There was a common understanding that this is what our expectation is and this is what we need to do in order to get there. So I think for all of you listening, look at who is using the language. And if, again, here's another option, is that just the senior leaders are the ones that are talking about it, and the people on the deck plate, the people who are actually doing it, aren't having the language, aren't telling the stories, aren't telling the why. So it needs to be both. It needs to have alignment from top down or out or back in or however you want to say it. But that really needs. That's important in change.

That's incredibly important. If I don't have language to explain to my. The person I work with every day, this is where we're going. Because we'll all get frustrated. We'll all have things that won't work right. How do we keep returning to that space of. This is the story that brings us forward. This is the compelling story. And I had one gentleman I interviewed about eight months ago. He was a CEO of an international company. And he pulled me into a conversation he was having. And when he was done, I said, let me talk with you. He said, I believed I had four or five values that really mattered. And then when I would travel to different parts of the world to meet people inside our company, I would just sit down with them over a cup of coffee and say, what are the four or five values that we think? What are the values? What are the values? And they would say, oh, yeah, I know we have them. But they had no idea what they were. They said, well, how many were there? Eight, maybe 12, maybe three. And so no one, actually, the actual story was not embraced and therefore not embodied by those that were working outside. So, Julie, your picture of where you drew a little triangle at the top of the head, the head kind of gets it. And the people that are directly reporting to the head, they kind of get it. And after that, it becomes a series of tasks, processes, benchmarks, procedures, rather than the system. Everybody in the system can tell the story in their own way, in their own voice. And ladies and gentlemen, if you're listening, if you're trying to make a change, everybody has got to be able to, in their own words, say why that change is so important. Otherwise, we'll continue to do good things. I don't think it's just bad things. It's just you won't get the desired result, which is a systemic move toward a new vision. That was really great. Joe, how'd they do interpreting that story for you? And please add on.

Yeah, no, it's a very fruitful conversation, I think. I think it's. Underlying this conversation, I think, is the.

Need for executive reflection.

So most of the executives I talk to, you say, well, how do you.

How and when do you reflect on.

What is going on in your organization? The answers are usually something around commuting or in the shower or something. Something that's like that, that's, you know, a multitask with something else.

When.

I think the truth is that executives need time to reflect unashamedly, without making excuses. It is the executive's job to think about what is happening and what are the results we're obtaining. And is that where I need to go or where I want to go in this organization? And so I think. I think that deliberate reflection and then.

Drawing those lessons out and having those.

Conversations, having the conversations that you need to with the team as a result of that reflection is a very powerful way forward.

It's almost like I can't change the language, therefore, I can't change the culture unless I have deliberate, intentional time to reflect. Reflect. That was really good. I was just really, really good. So we are pushing the edge of this podcast, but before I do a quick checkout, I'd like Julie and Colleen to respond to that reflection piece, because I have watched all three of you do this, and you have watched me do it. We model reflection inside JLC as a critical component. So either one of you. Julie, you want to go first. Where and how have you used reflection to help yourself moving forward?

Well, I don't know who said it, but somebody said, you can't change what you're not aware of. And a lot of times I'm not aware of things. And until I really sit down and write, there's also a quote that says, I'm not aware of what I'm thinking till I read what I wrote. And that was one of the things that I started doing, was I started typing or journaling every day. And then as I would do that and I would read back through and be like, wow, I'm really having some feelings about this or that really upset me. Or you know, oh, that's a really good idea. But I didn't know it until I was still enough to really think about what was bouncing around in my head.

So that. And by the way, the literature that Julie just gave you is legion. There's another piece too. A lot of people say, well, I can type on my computer and get my reflection done. There is immediate emerging material in the world right now that if you can sit and use your best handwriting or printing to reflect, it connects differently to the prefrontal cortex. And all of a sudden you're able to make connections that may not have been there before. Julie, that was great. Colleen, how have you used reflection?

Well, I think it just really reminded me of a quote I've heard all of us use before, right around the definition of insanity. And that is a great example of the need to reflect. So I've used that with, not only in my family, working with my own kids, but also with clients as well by talking to them, as Joe mentioned about this key element of reflection and taking the time to pause. Because if we don't pause and think intentionally, what am I doing? Is it producing the desired results? And if not, what am I going to change in the way I'm communicating in one of my processes, in my performance, in my day to day activities? If we don't take the time to reflect and think about what it is we're going to change, we're busy doing, working, then the culture will stay the same, the change will be a checkbox, as you mentioned. Well, I did this Tasker, so. But systemic change generates from continual reflection and reflection at every level of the organization. So not just the top executive team is sitting there thinking about how well am I doing, but it's everybody all the way through the entire organization that is also using reflection and these powerful feedback loops to enhance and to modify, revise their daily practices to make sure they're producing the desired results. And that's when you really see systemic change and when these changes are embedded in the culture.

Yeah, it's a chance for me to be pretty transparent with myself. One of the things I think we develop in this world of leadership, right. Is pretty good, you know, crap detectors. We can tell. Oh, that's bullshit. Sometimes I do that to myself. And as soon as I do that, I enter the drama triangle because then I make somebody else the victim or the persecutor of me and I start playing a Scripted role rather than just being. Ray. Vulnerable, transparent. Ray. I am not perfect. I am human. I make mistakes. And I am still in learning, reflection produces. Produces new, personal, practical knowledge. You guys have been great.

If I could add just one final thought to that. I think for people who are listening to this, here's a provocation that the next time they get something from higher headquarters and their kind of visceral reaction to it is, well, this is crazy. Or, you know, okay, then pause for a minute, you know, close your office door and reflect on the fact that, okay, headquarters is not crazy like all of us. They are trying to get through their day and do the right thing.

And.

Reflect on what are they trying to do with this direction and what are they trying to achieve. And I think this has a way of deepening your thinking and your reaction to. Because many times, again, prima facie, yeah, it just looks nonsensical or looks silly.

But when you ponder the deeper reasons behind what headquarters is trying to get to.

And maybe headquarters did make an error, certainly they can.

But reflecting on it that way leads.

You to a deeper consideration of what's at stake and how you should act in response to that.

I want you, if you're listening, I want you to really notice something that Joe did there. He stayed away from that. Why are they doing this? He stayed away from that and stayed in that. What is the intent? What does this mean to me? What. What am I going to do? I cannot tell you, ladies and gentlemen that are listening. How we get so caught up in the why. And then I just get depressed. Why did I do that? Why did I cut that car off? Why did I speak that way to my mother in law? Why did I, you know, and I end up in this really weird place of, you know, self flagellation. You know, give me some whip, I'll beat myself up for a while. Rather than shifting into what can I do to understand this? Improve the quality of the relationship. On and on. It was great. All right, your last. That was your out, Joe. So I'm going to get Colleen and Julie to give us. What's something you want a listener to take away from this, from your vantage point? Because, oh my God, this was a good conversation. One of those I want to put in the back pocket and keep with me. So who'd like to start? What's something you want the listeners to take away?

Sure, I'll go ahead. And I think it's the importance of creating that compelling story. You know, sometimes they do. People. Well, I got a mission statement all right. Well, okay. Yes. And it's important to have a story so people understand what it is you're trying to accomplish. That's what they want to see. Right. And then the story also is within each individual. Now, the individual is matching their daily work and their personal story to the vision. And those key pieces are absolutely critical. So if you are leading through change, ensure your story is compelling. And each person in the system is matching that story to their own daily work.

See, that's beautiful. So, Colleen, you've got two people in this space right now that you just gave us. One is Peter Senge, who says, the discipline of personal vision. I need a personal vision that matches my personal vision, matches the vision, the compelling story of the system. The second person is Simon Sinek, who says, you got to know why. You got to know the big why. Well, the big why is the compelling story. We don't have that. We're kind of lost moving forward. I'll do tasks, I'll hit my numbers. I may not actually reach what I want to get to. Beautiful. Thank you, Julie.

I'm going to give another resource. I'm not sure how to say her last name. Nancy Duarte. D U A R T E. That is correct. She does a TED Talk that you want to look her up and TED Talk after it, and you'll find her. She does a great job of taking really prolific speeches that have made dramatic change in our lives. Jfk, Bill Gates, Martin Luther King. And she breaks them down and shows you exactly how to create a story that will actually make an impact and how it is what it is and then what we hope it to be. So, like Martin Luther King, he talks about, you know, these are the things that are happening. And then he says, but I have a dream. So. And it's so interesting that you never think about the other stuff that Martin Luther King. You always think about, the I have a dream part. But what comes before that is what it is and what it could be.

I love it. Yeah, that sense, by the way, if you're. If you're really following us and studying, you know, the. The idea of learning, organization, organizational learning, Julie just laid on the table current reality, desired future state. And if I can't see that, if I spend my whole life working in the current reality and refining the current reality. Yep, you can do that. It's great. It's a great gig. Right? You will not get to what it ought to look like or what you hope it looks like without building that tension between those two polarities that was beautiful. As you're reflecting, I'm going to give you Everybody likes to take away a tool. Here's a tool. If something happens or you see, so you get something from headquarters, I want you to practice the rule of six. There's always six rational explanations for why you got that directive. Or there's always six solutions to any challenge or problem that you're looking at. It's a shift from problem to opportunity and reason. I'm saying six is our study with the Native Americans. They think that in the Western world we go, it's A or B this or that, one or two, and they stop. And they don't take the time to expand their thinking into four or five, six, even very different ways to respond or explain a situation. Ladies and gentlemen, hope you enjoyed this one. I liked it a lot and I look forward to the next one that we're going to do together. Please be tuning in to us and as you know, if you'd like to have a discovery conversation with any one of us in the JLC team, write us a note. We're on. Go to the website, say, hey, I'd like to have a discovery call. 30 minute discovery call, absolutely free. It's our gift back. We are paying it forward so that you can use these practices to meet your expectations and needs. We are so grateful, so grateful that you took time to be with us today. And if you're listening to us during the holiday season, because that's when we're recording it and I have one of my ugly Christmas sweaters on and I'm here to say Happy holidays and Merry Christmas. Enjoy your your season. If Hanukkah is your particular season, or Kwanza or whatever one you're in right now, I hope you enjoy the hell out of it and get what you want for Christmas. And watch out for the old man with a bag. He probably has a gift to drop down your chimney. Take care everyone. We'll see you soon.

Sincerest thanks for listening to this episode of the Everyday Leadership Conversations podcast. The Jorgensen Learning center offers a variety of programs for individuals and organizations to enhance their communication and leadership skills. To find out more about programs and upcoming webinars, check out our events page at gojlc.

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