Inside JLC: What's the Problem? Technical vs Adaptive

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Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for joining us here at JLC Media. This is kind of an insider group. This is inside JLC conversation today. And we work all the time at developing our own personal mastery. We try and get better at everything that we do. And Colleen, actually one of our panelists today that's involved in this conversation, something we really need to work on is helping people understand why their current level of practical knowledge may not be enough to solve a wicked problem. And we have lots of examples where people have attempted to use their current practical knowledge to solve a problem, and then it came up short for some reason, and understand why. So today we're going to give you an opportunity to listen to some of these interesting stories so that each of you, when this is done, will be able to see the difference between a technical problem and an adaptive challenge. If you want to read more about this, it's all over the place. It's all over the learning organization. Ron Heifetz was the first one that I heard talk about this openly at a discussion, and I think he did a marvelous job. If you'd like to learn more about adaptive leadership, I think is what he refers to it as, you can see him or hop on this next couple of podcasts we're going to do because we're going to talk more about this going forward. So that's our deal today. So real quick, what are we going to talk about today? Vince? What are we going to work on today?

So we're going to talk about making a distinction between how a leader could look at resolving a technical issue, vice being very more adaptive and looking more systematically at what the root causes of that issue are, what the issue is, so that you can provide a more comprehensive way forward.

So, Vince, that's beautiful. And what happens, I think people trying to find leadership through qualities or characteristics or values. Leadership happens when there is something to solve, when there's a huge issue or a little issue or something to respond to, and the true leaders are able to mobilize people to figure out, how do we move forward to solve this? We have many examples of that, and real leadership is about seeing that difference between a technical problem and an adaptive challenge. Colleen, what are you hearing?

Yeah, I really like how you've laid that out and how Vince really came to that conclusion of it's almost like adaptive. If we want to look at it from a different perspective, how can we take that step back and take a systems view, is what you said, Vince, that really resonated with me because many times with some of the executives that I've been working with, they lock onto one way. Let's talk scotomas. But that can be another conversation if I lock on, because I think I'm going to solve something with that needs to be solved this way. I've locked off of perhaps all this other critical information that might help me solve this crazy big issue that's going on.

That's really beautiful. And that idea of low, low, lock on, lock out. If I lock onto one solution, I lock out others. And I think we do that because I want to exercise my leadership, show my subject matter expertise. I'm the authority figure in this meeting. Come on. So I'm going to say things that will hold me in a little box that will allow me not to get to a bigger box where this problem may live outside of my purview. That's really well stated. What did you hear me say there, Gilles?

So just to add something differently, it's how important it is to realize that what our PPK was isn't going to get us where we need to go. And oftentimes we try and take what has helped in the past and reapply that, and it's not. We have to really take it, each section, as its whole new place. Where is it that I'm confused? Develop a common understanding to make sure you're really clear as to what's going on, and then invite everybody into the rule of six. Right? How many possibilities do we have that we could. Don't Just take that first answer just to fix it and cross it off the list and move on. Really take some time to have some collective thinking.

It's beautifully said. And I hear people say, I don't have time to think about this. Just do this. And they'll actually tell you, just do this, do this, do this, do this. And all of a sudden, okay, I will, knowing in my heart it's not going to solve this. This challenge isn't going to go away. But I will do what you said. You are the boss, and so I will do it. There's tremendous sensibility here. For those of you that are listening to explore another author, Marshall Goldsmith. Love him. And I love his book, what Got yout Here Won't get you There, a fantastic piece, what Got yout Here Won't get yout There. So these are many of the resources that we, as a team of associates, use all the time to keep ourselves centered and not get distracted when a client says, oh, I really need you to do this. So, okay, thank you. And that's really not our game. Here's what we do. And I really love that. I love that. Love that. So here is the beginning of this. I'm going to make a sentence, a kind of sloppy sentence, but a sentence, and then I'd like you to react to it. And I'm going to listen to some stories about the difference between technical problems and adaptive challenges. So there's a myth out there that has been articulated by many of the people in this area of leadership development, and it says that people really aren't afraid of change. They are fearful of not knowing what to do. Your presence. This is part of who we are as people. Our Persona is that actually I am in leadership and I should know what to do. It's almost like we're taught that from elementary school onward. So if I get into a space where I just, geez, I don't know what to do, I almost am going to fake it till I make it. I began my leadership career that way. I had no idea how to mobilize a group of people, faculty members, to get to a. And everybody saying, what should I do about this? And of course, I played the parent role. No matter how old they were, I played the parent role. You should do this right. So this ability to recognize that those of you that are listening, we work on this all the time. We want to be unafraid of recognizing that. I don't know. I don't know what to do moving forward. So I'll start with you this time, Vince. What did you hear?

So as you were talking, I was thinking about being very mindful of trying to validate an outcome that you desire and not necessarily having as a leader the personal, professional knowledge to get the team to that end state. And so we are trained to want to know and to want to have the answer. But sometimes you don't. And so what do you do as a leader to incorporate and bring forward the best thinking of the team and the group so you can surface a variety of solutions and options to get the team to that optimized solution that you see.

Well said. Sometimes when I exercise my authority, I shut down the team. I don't allow the other wisdom to come in. Julie, what are you thinking about that little sentence about change?

Yeah, I agree. I tend to be an oppositional learner, and anytime there's change, I'm instantly against it. Vince is laughing. He's like, yeah, it's all that every time, you know, and it's just like. And I'm like, no way. And. And all of, you know, me long enough now to just be like, that's Julie. She just needs to get it out. She's afraid. She doesn't know if she can do it. And then eventually she'll get over herself and realize she's not by herself and all of us will do it together, and it's not going to be a big deal. And so just, you know, create that space that it is okay to have reactions whether you're on board or whether you're not on board with the change, but then let's stay in conversation so that we can get everybody, develop a common understanding and realize that we're doing it together.

Julie, that was really magnificent. So there's a piece here that we did a whole piece on resiliency. And when something's happening that's really upsetting and we didn't expect it, our tendency is to react. And then we react as either an oppositional learner, a congruent learner, we agree with everything, or somebody who's kind of mixed up. It depends on what the problem is and who's giving us the problem, whether I respond in a certain way. Eventually we learn to respond, not just to react, but it takes time for us to let it settle. Let it settle. Right. Reflect, recover from the situation and then think about that. Julia alluded to it already, that rule of six. There's six ways to respond to any significant situation or challenge. Colleen, talk to us about the change piece and what you heard from your friends.

Yeah, I think I'm just reflecting on the rule of six. Right. And going back really, also to what Vince was saying. When you're in that space of leadership, I mean, think about the level of clients that we're in conversations with on a regular basis, and they're paid the big bucks to have the answers. They're promoted because they were so good in their prior role. Why wouldn't they be able to lead that activity even better? So there is this implied right. And it's expected that they're going to be able to do this. And so now they've got to change their thinking. And sometimes they might not have the necessary personal, practical knowledge to lead the group of people. Like you mentioned, Ray, you didn't have to this desired end state. And I think it takes a lot of transparency, a lot of vulnerability to be able to say, you know what? I'm not quite sure. So I have this amazing group of people around me. Perhaps I need to pause and surface the collective thinking of the group. And Vince mentioned that as well. And I think the key thing is it's that self awareness of a leader to be able to say, damn, I'm.

Not quite sure what to do.

But guess what?

I'm not by myself. I have a team. So how can I tap into the wisdom of the team? Not just once, not just when my back is up against the wal consistently, to ensure we're developing as much, as much safe space and as much best possible thinking and data and information so I can move the team towards that end state more effectively.

Yeah, one of our colleagues keeps saying that reflection is a little engine of change. I don't disagree with that. I think it's true. What you described is a leader's ability to reflect collectively, to reflect in a way that the whole team really gets a common understanding about what we're facing. What is this challenge? What is this problem? And then the second part of that is to generate new ideas. And it may even sit in this space of I need to develop more personal, practical knowledge about X. Right. And when that happens, life changes. So let me kind of, I'll play one story out that kind of matches this. But notice what Colleen teed up for you. Reflection, critical reflect. But then if you just keep reflecting and go, oh shit, oh shit, no, I didn't like this. Oh, well, I'm not going anywhere. I need to generate a different way to respond. And if you've been listening to our podcast, you know that we do all kinds of things with after action reviews, etc. It's all part of it. So I'll give you a story and I will get out of one of the spaces that I went to. So I'm from New York City and I grew up in the 50s and 60s. It was very volatile time in the city and we used to have a gentleman that used to walk our neighborhood. He was a beat cop and he watched over our neighborhood. He knew every family in the neighborhood. Every family. And if I did something stupid or wrong before I got home, everybody would know because the beat cop and all the other neighbors would tell one another, look what Ray did. You know, little Raymond did this. So believe it or not, although it was a very dense city, the neighborhood had its own kind of ethos and allowed people to see one another in different ways that sometimes today are hard to find. So here's what started to happen in New York City. People started to throw things at cops when they were walking the beat. So police commissioner says, okay, well we can't have people throwing things at the cops walking the beat. So we're going to now put them either in vehicles or we'll have them working in subgroups so they're together. Three or four cops would work the same space together. So we can't leave them alone out there with people throwing things at them. That leader, and I know, not being pejorative at all, it would be normal for a leader to see, oh, I see the problem. We're going to get our cops hurt. The officers are going to get hurt. So what we need to do is either pair them up or put them in a car or give them some other kinds of equipment to wear so they don't get hurt too badly. That turned into. Over the years, that same commissioner started saying, we're doing something that is not appreciated by our communities. And they started a significant community outreach program. They did not have the personal practical knowledge to sit with a bunch of people in a room and talk about the beat cop and what they were trying to do and what it means to protect and serve. It required a new development of personal protection practical knowledge. They didn't have what they needed to fix what eventually became an incredibly significant solution. So that's one simple example of first response was technical. Over time, after reflection and some generation, they recognized we need new PPK in order for us to get out into the communities and, and build those relationships with our communities and community members. So that's just one example. And my team has multiple more, but notice the distinction. Technical problem. Do this. Adaptive challenge. Oh, other things to do. And I may need to develop some PPK to do it. Julie got one for us.

Do I have an example?

Yeah, yeah.

So this was a school district that I was working on and there was a person that people would come in early and there was usually one person that would come in late or come late to a meeting and so, and people would stay late and it was no problem. And everybody really valued each other. You know, if I had to go take my kids to the doctors or whatever, then it was okay for this teacher to go and so on and so forth. Very flexible and adaptive to what people need. And then there was a new principal that came in and they saw the problem that there were certain people that were late. And so they decided to make a technical mandate that everybody had to sign in at a certain time and everybody had to sign into the meeting to find out what time they were there and sign out. And what happened was those people who were coming in early and those people who were staying late were like, well, I'm not doing this anymore. You're nickel and diamond me. And now I have to take a half a day to take my kids to the doctor, then forget it. And so it really was a technical solution or whatever to when it could have been adaptive, which is what it was working.

Yeah, it definitely was an adaptive challenge, not a technical problem. And when I was a young principal, I would have done that. That would have been a mistake. That's what I would have done. Because I didn't know any better. I didn't recognize that this community of teachers had built these relationships in such an exquisite way that they would take care of one another. They really would. And if I know better, I do better. At that time, I did not know better. I would have done exactly what that principal did that came into the that house. And I so understand it. Great example. Thank you, Colleen.

Let me just ask you a question, Julie, because I think what I'm hearing is new principal comes in and decides to make a change. Was that meeting non productive? Was there some reason why they identified this as needing a fix? Because I think that's my wondering is always. And let's go back to leaders that come in and all right, I'm going to make this change and make this change because this is the way it needs to be done. I'm like, well, was it producing the desired result? Because if we're working towards the end state and we're having a productive meeting and we are aligned and in sync, why are you messing with anything?

You're exactly right. And you know, it was, it's a situation where the, the. It was an elementary building and they had like some of the rough kids. So the teachers were pretty outside the box thinkers, you know, and the rest of the school district sort of looked down on the teaching staff and, you know, all of this stuff. And then they hired a principal that was gonna pull this group together and get them in line and, you know.

Make sure they're shape.

Exactly. And it just, it was not a good situation. Yeah.

Oh, my God. Thank you, Colleen. So many examples of that out there. You know, what comes to mind for me is a missed opportunity to understand the culture that was there. And we did a great podcast with Vaughn Washington who talked about his first steps as a new principal. And he brought a school from the least performing in the state to blue ribbon status. And he said, the first thing I did is I sat with the kids and then I sat with the custodians. Then I sat with this group and we started to talk about what really mattered in the house. How can we take care of the kids more effectively? There was a question of mobilizing a group and create a culture of care and concern. And I get it. I really. And my heart says to me, I know why that human being did that. Because somebody, his superior said, take care of this. Go fix that problem out there. Look at these people. So all of a sudden, sure, I'll go fix it. And long as you're happy, I'm happy. But the rest of the house is not so happy. It's just a great example. Vince, how's this stuff landing on you?

Yeah, so I was just sitting here thinking about the contrast. Julie told a great story, and in her example, you had this problem and you had somebody who come in who came in and said, fix it. And so that reminds me of the book you just talked about. What got you there won't get you where you want to go. So clearly they went out and found that bulldog that knew how to solve problems. And that person came in with that strength. And then Ray, you pivoted it and you told a slightly different story about culture. And so that resonated with me because I just talked to a group yesterday and we were having this conversation about how do you change culture. So the example I used was a situation I had when I was in a leadership position. I had a problem in a major program that had an impact on our customers. It was working, but not working very well. I believe, based off my historical knowledge and experience, that I personally had the PPK to solve that problem. And I knew that if I could just direct my team to make a change to the process in the policy and design, it would get us to the outcome. But I had a different instinct. My end state was I wanted to influence the culture of my team to solve problems collectively. So I had to have the discipline not to input my solution, but to bring the talent around my table to the forefront and just ask a question, how do we solve this problem? And then I had to be patient and wait and listen so that they could think through how to solve the problem, that ultimately we were able to drive a cultural change and become a high reliability organization. So as a leader, sometimes it's not that we don't have the knowledge and we have to come to the team and say, I don't know what to do. Sometimes even if we know what to do, having the discipline to understand that it's about shifting culture, which means that you have to support the team's endeavor. So you were both telling great stories from different perspectives. And as I listened to both of you, that's what was resonating with me.

How did that land on you two ladies?

Yeah, no, I really, I really like that Vince. And I think that talks about that leadership awareness to recognize, you know, because once again you could have came in and solved that problem. I'll go back to my scotoma comment from earlier on. Your own thinking, would it have fixed the issue? Probably. You do have a great subject matter expertise and you had some ideas, but not all of them. And by just pausing, pausing to go, wow, okay, I have some ideas. Right. I don't have all of them. Everybody around me might have some better ideas. How can we truly engage in a collective conversation where we are sharing our thinking? So we are producing, we're gathering as many thoughts and as many ideas so we produce the best way to solve the issue, to enhance the process, to, you know, to ensure that we are producing the very best course of action. And you created feedback loops and opportunities for people to speak. Right. And share. And I think unfortunately many leaders don't, hey man, you hired me, I got this. I come every time. Here's a problem, here's the solution. Woo hoo, let's move out. Right versus recognizing. Okay, well that's one way. But another way is truly creating the space like you did and recognizing that if you lay your thinking on the table first because you are right, the commanding officer, people are gonna go, well, sounds good to me, boss. Let's move out.

Really good. Colleen, Julia, how's this landed on you?

Yeah, I agree. I just was working with a group this morning and they were asking, how do you do this collective thinking? Because I'll tell you after my brief or after my meeting or during the meeting, I say, does anybody have any questions? Does anybody have any ideas? And there's crickets. So sure. Ok, so here's another level, right? So we talked a little bit about how to reduce the risk of that. So first of all, you have the modeling. You can of course put out one idea and have it be the most extreme idea possible. You could say, okay, so we don't do it, that's my idea. And after you model that a couple times that your first is we don't do it. And now they have to come up with something else that gets them to like, want to be the first person to share, turn and talk to a partner. What are your ideas that lowers the risk. And then the group reports out. Don't feel like this is the only meeting where we have to generate ideas. Let's like, like Vince was saying, it's got to be a long road, so bring it up and say, hey, the way it's occurring for me is there might be a problem over the next week. I want you to sort of gather some data. How is this limiting you? So you're not getting into the solution right away. You're just simply gathering information to find out how is this impacting us? Because they might have been aware of it. And so now, now they're getting on board. So be thinking about a number one, giving modeling examples that are completely extreme, number two, having them turn and talk to come up with as many ideas as you possibly can. And then number three, giving them time to sort of gather data, talk to each other, and just keep following up with the feedback loops. Like Colleen was saying.

One of my favorite opportunities was to listen to these people in Silicon Valley. I was invited to observe a team meeting, and it got very contentious. And the leader of the team said, all right, I don't care what you do, I don't want any more bugs in the, in the material. No more bugs in the program. And one guy says, got it. I'll take care of it right away. He says, great, what are you going to do? So I'm going to dump the program. No more bugs. That good, boss? That what you want? So it's almost like when you push an extreme notion outbound, all of a sudden people know what we don't want you to do, to do that. So it shifts almost by doing the extreme example that Julie described, it shifts you into a space of, well, wait a minute now. This is not just a technical problem. This is an adaptive challenge. And I'm hoping that's what you guys got out of listening to this one today. That distinction is really important. Here's the leadership challenge. Technical problems and adaptive challenges are all bundled together. And the first thing you got to do is investigate what the hell's going on so you can begin to parse between technical problems and adaptive challenges. And be willing to admit I don't have the necessary personal practical knowledge to respond effectively to that adaptive challenge. Sometimes we do, but it's much better if we have the collective wisdom of the team to respond. You guys were magnificent today. Let's tell the listeners one thing you would like them to consider. Invite them something to consider moving forward, because I hope all of you that are listening take five minutes. When this is over, turn everything off, sit and think and write a little bit about what was your biggest takeaway from this conversation. That we had here today about that distinction, Technical problems and adaptive challenges. And notice, this is all about change. Everybody says we're afraid of it. No, we're not. We just get mixed up about it, and we conflate those two things. Technical, technical problems, adaptive challenges. So what's one thing you would tell our listeners today as our checkout before we kind of say adios to the gang that's listening to us? Who'd like to start?

I'll go first. So the thing that it's been a game changer for me as a leader is to realize that I'm actually limiting myself and my team if I come in with the answer. I used to take on all the responsibility and think through it and all of this sort of stuff and then come in and save them from having to do work and save them from having to think and, you know, all of this sort of. I thought I was being the rescuer and the savior. Meanwhile, they were like, this woman's just telling me what to do, you know.

And her solution's horrible.

Exactly. She doesn't know what she's talking about. So really getting into that mindset of, oh, okay, well, next time we're together, we'll chat about it, and let's see what we can discover together. So that has been a huge game changer for me and my leadership.

Are you out?

Yeah.

So one of my very first leadership seminars I went to when I was department chair for mathematics, right? And so everybody went to professional development. So we had a professional development day. I went. So I go into this room, and there's this man standing there, and he's got, like, 10 monkeys in the room with me, and he starts putting them on his back and putting them. And they're running around and on his head and all this stuff, and he's giving him food, and he says, hey, each one of these monkeys represents a challenge or problem you've been asked to solve. And people come in your office in the afternoon and they drop a monkey on your desk, and then it climbs up on your shoulder, and it's cute. You like them, right? But then you get another teacher that shows up, and here's another one for you. Now, I got two monkeys now. 3, 4, 5, 10. And now you are spending all your time feeding the monkeys and playing with them. And everybody else went, not my problem, boss. I am done. I will never forget that workshop. It was one of the best ones I ever went to. Vince, tell us something. You tell the gang that's listening.

Well, first, Ray has Amazing stories. And that monkey story is just an example. Man, that was good. I like that. You know, for me, Ray, I think that what I would say to all the leaders is to understand the importance of the fact that you have to take ownership of your team. You know, your team is, that's yours. And that doesn't mean that you tell them what to do, but how do you best support them and identify what's needed on the team? How do you remove obstacles so that the team can really achieve what it is you're asking them to do? And so just knowing that you can't shut that responsibility of ownership of your team is what I would remind leaders to think of and to be considered as we leave today. And I'm out.

That is just super. So the sensibility here is that if it's a technical problem, we don't need a whole lot of chat, just do this. You know, if it's an adaptive challenge, we need one another desperately and the leader's responsibility is to mobilize this group so that they can actually move forward in figuring out what to do. What PPK do I need? How do I get better at this? That was great, Vince. Thank you, Colleen.

I think what's really something I suggest people to consider is the sentence that we've used consistently. Self reflection can generate change. If you choose to the first part, as you mentioned before, pause and reflect. I invite you to think about how are you showing up in these team meetings. Are you showing up, as Vince mentioned, in a place of knowing, of fixing, of Julie said as rescuing? Or are you recognizing this as an opportunity to show up in a space of curiosity, asking open ended questions that help your team reflect and think about possible ways to move forward with this particular problem, whether it's technical or whether it happens to be an adaptive challenge. I'm out.

The piece that you laid on the table. So here's something that has happened to me. You know, I used to travel 45, 50 weeks a year and I did that for over 20 years, right? So I'd be making a change somewhere and I'd get there and the flight's delayed and I would be like, I just want to get home or I just want to get to my hotel. And what happened is when the first officer did a walk around and then got back in and started to check the dashboard to make things are okay, had a warning light, that's a technical problem. That technical problem produced adaptive challenges because now we have to get everybody where they want to get to within, you know, a few hours or maybe within a day. So those of you that are listening, I really want you to notice that distinction. Sometimes a technical problem, which we know how to solve, we can fix to what's wrong with the airplane, right? Creates adaptive challenges. Don't miss that in your work as leaders. Notice that and be ready to tap into that collective wisdom so we can generate the necessary personal, practical knowledge to respond well as best as we can to the adaptive challenge. It's been great having you guys with us today. Hope you enjoyed this. I love talking to you. These people, they have, they're just brilliant and they're wonderful coaches. If you need us, give us a ring. We'll do a 30 minute discovery call, free discovery call with, with any one of the four of us. I'll even talk to you if you want me to, but I don't think I'm that interesting. They're more interesting. But if you go to gojlc.com you have an opportunity to ask for a free, absolutely free discovery call. Hopefully you'll love us and we'll do more together if you don't. We're happy to do a 30 minute free discovery call, but we're really grateful for you being with us today at JLC Media. Take care, everyone. We'll see you next time.

Sincerest thanks for listening to this episode of the Everyday Leadership Conversations podcast. The Jorgensen Learning center offers a variety of programs for individuals and organizations to enhance their communication and leadership skills. To find out more about programs and upcoming webinars, check out our Events page at gojlc. Com.