Leader to Leader: Chip Boyle, Part 3

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Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for joining us at another JLC media event. This is an ongoing series of leader to leader, and I've had the privilege of talking to two gentlemen that are leaders, were former leaders, and are still leading in their communities different aspects of what's going on. One is an associate of jlc. He is constantly coaching and developing leaders in the military arena. The other gentleman is a retired counselor judge, and he is consistently and constantly finding another reason to engage me in a cause, a situation, or a group that is doing really good work. So both gentlemen truly interested in their communities and both doing work on behalf of that. The responses we've gotten to the first couple of podcasts with these two men have been wonderful. People say they are interesting and engaging, and I'll let you determine that on your own. I find them interesting and engaging. And we are working off of an article by Forbes that has really kind of set the stage for these conversations. And as I think about it, I want to make sure that you guys know that this gentleman, Thomas Frank, authored this article and he said this to me. These are some really important secrets of leadership that sometimes we don't talk about. We started with mentorship, why it matters, and then the next one was accountability, that it really should be your personal brand. And we are now shifting into the. And we also worked on vulnerability in relationships. Today we're going to work on two other edges. One is about decision making. And both gentlemen spoke about making decisions in an ethical format. Not the language they use, but it's what they talked about. Today we're going to talk about decisions and decisions in this way, emotional decisions. This is a quote from the Forbes article, are rarely your best ones. And then the last piece will be about learning and leaders, why the best leaders are consistently learning. So with that said, they both had a chance to think about this. I'm going to pivot to that very first one. And remember, ladies and gentlemen that are listening, look for takeaways. Look for. That's a nugget. That's something I can use. Because when you hear practical stories from the field, there's a lot in those stories that you can pull from and practice yourself. With that in mind, I'll start with Chip and let him first tell us a little bit about Emotional decisions are rarely your best ones. You got a story about that one for us, brother?

Well, yes. And thank you again for having me. And good afternoon, Vince. It's always a pleasure to be with the both of you to talk about leadership. I find myself in A little bit different position here today because you, you two are the two experts. And I, although I've been in business, I was a lawyer for 40 some years and briefly a judge, I was never running a business like.

You have.

With hundreds and sometimes thousands of employees. So my role here today, I think is one of the listener rather than the presenter. How many times have you been listening to a podcast or watching a podcast and you would say to yourself, boy, I wish they'd asked that question. So I'm the listener today, and you two folks are the experts, and I'm the guy in the car listening to this podcast who's going to maybe throw a nugget for the both of you to answer. When I was in business, if you asked me, I mentioned this earlier, if you asked me to rule on an evidentiary matter in a product liability case, I could give you the case citation immediately. When you ask me about the psychology of emotions and decision making, well, that's where you guys are the experts. I've had to do that in the past. And the subject matter, the Forbes article goes on to say that emotions are not productive when used in a decision making process. But the other half of that coin, or the other side of that coin is emotions are inherent in decision making, I think because you want to do what's right, and what's right is an emotional bias. So my experience with emotions, decision making in a team setting would be we have a problem, we have different people trying to solve the problem. I was always a person who was chore and task oriented. You give me something to do and you give me a deadline, of course, and I will methodically move to the answer. Contrast that with a fellow who you give him a deadline and he's a deadline person who doesn't really do a lot until that deadline is looming. Okay, so the emotion involved is anxiety. I don't want to be an anxious person, but the team member who I have a lot of respect for is the second. He's the person that doesn't do a lot right away, but when that deadline is imminent, he performs. The emotion that is in his mind is anxiety. And anxiety fuels performance. The emotion is an important part of getting to the answer I found.

I thought you didn't know anything about this.

Well, I don't.

You absolutely do. What did you hear him say, Vincent? What are you thinking?

So I heard Chip talk about the importance of understanding that emotions absolutely pay and they're contributing factor to decisions. Some people wait to the last minute and that amount of stress and amount of anxiety creates motivation and creates performance. And others kind of, you know, take things from the beginning. But in any case, we as leaders need to understand that the emotional response from people are a key component of decision making and it is actually a part of the decision making process. That was a key takeaway. I heard that. Capture what you said, Chip.

Yes, absolutely. And the beauty of it is you can be productive with both kinds of people. A manager, in my view, managing that I did. I wouldn't try to change the chore producer to be a final result producer because they're both answering the same question. A manager doesn't answer, in my view, try to change the philosophy of his employees. He lets them run with the problem to solve it.

That's interesting. So talk a little bit about that from your standpoint, Vince, because I love the story you were going to tell us about compassion, where emotion mattered. Right. And it transferred into compassion. And then we're going to go back to this, you know, making right decisions from an emotional standpoint. But tell us a little bit about your story.

So, you know, as we began to explore this topic, a lot of things began to resonate with me. And sometimes, you know, you take time to reflect. And I will tell you that early in my career, I was a task oriented leader. I was the person that my boss knew when it absolutely possibly had to happen. Call me and then start to drive to that end result. But as I became more senior and I became more responsible for others, I had to make a shift in my comfort zone and how I looked at decision making processes. And a part of that was not being afraid to demonstrate some vulnerabilities and that compassion. Because to me, it was important to connect with my people so they could see that sometimes it's okay to not have all the answers and to not be 100% certain. And that could still help the team get to an ultimate result. So here's the story that was shared. And this is not something I wish on anyone. But I had the unfortunate privilege of being in command and I lost a sailor, lost one of my leaders to a tragic motorcycle accident. So I get a call at 2 in the morning to tell them there had been a terrible accident. And we believe we lost this great officer. And if you can imagine, in a small community environment, it really took an impact on the entire command structure. And so the next several days, we had to do the right thing for this family. He had young teenage kids, and so we had to rally all of the resources that we had to support the children and to support this family. But in the end, it was a loss. And so we took some periodic times just to have some discussion as a group. And I would stand in front of the command, and we would just talk about what the next few days are going to look like for all of us. And I can recall one or two days while I was there, being stoic and leading and directing and being a great leader, I become overcome with the emotions of the loss. It just. Everything kind of swirled up and. Well, and I had a choice. I could walk away and leave and not show my own vulnerability. But I knew that my command was hurting, and I was hurting right along with it. So that emotion came to the forefront. That didn't happen very often, but on that particular occasion, it did. And I think that the end result was that demonstration of my allowing myself to be vulnerable for my people, really, at the end, brought us closer together and helped us collectively come to a place of resolution that made the overall organization stronger. So it was not my intent to allow that amount of demonstration to come to the surface, but in that particular case, that demonstrated vulnerability and compassion, I thought was of value to add.

Vince, you know, the. You know, I don't ever want to purport myself as an expert in things. I would prefer to think of myself as learning. So. You made me think of so many things simultaneously. I lost a teacher in the classroom. I lost multiple kids to really bad things over my tenure as a. As a school person. And, you know, Vince, you and I did a podcast maybe almost a year ago on recognizing that, you know, shit happens, bad stuff happens. And this part's really important. Listeners, especially Vince, knows this, and I know Chip does. We really don't know where emotion comes from. It just shows up. Especially if it's a tragic or sad situation. The emotion just comes. And the work that Vince and I have done in the past in helping leaders think through this, what do I do? I feel sad, angry. Pick one. Right. That emotion will pass. And the question you've got to take charge of is, what is the emotion I choose to show? And he said stoic. And, you know, this goes way back to the Greeks. And Stoa is a porch. It's where people used to hang out and talk philosophically. And from that work and this. And Vince has said this, and so did Chip in his opening. The only thing I can control, and you know, the world, you so control this, Ray, control that. The only thing I can control is my response, nothing else. And when that emotion comes flowing over me, it Just showed up. I didn't say no. I want to feel sad now, I want to feel happy now, I want to cry now. None of that, it just gets there. And as we teach this, and Chip, I'd love you to react to this. As we teach this, we think about a big wave crashing over you. It's powerful. Powerful. Think how you felt standing in front of the command. Powerful, right? But it will, what, dissipate. And when it does, what's the emotion? I want to show compassion, care. Unconditional love for that family. Unconditional love for the team members that were part of the. It's just. And again, all of that work about stoicism comes down to that one really powerful place that says, what can I control my response? My response. Chip, what are you thinking?

Well, I'm thinking I'm driving down the expressway and you're talking about stoicism. And I'm an old TV fan of Star Trek. Remember Mr. Spock and the point that he didn't let emotion play in his decision making. He was a pure stoic. But on the other hand, Spock always did the right thing. So he had to have, in formulating his decisions, his so called lack of emotion. He had to have emotion. Emotion is a big point of decision making because you want to do the right thing. Is your mind telling you to do something or is your heart telling you to do something else? That's a question I have for the two of you. If you had to choose, would you do what your gut tells you to do or would you do what your mind tells you to do? A lot of times the gut reaction is the answer. You can overthink a problem. I don't know, Vince, what do you think? Is it your gut or is it your brain that fuels the proper decision?

You got it, Vince.

So that's a very interesting question that you pose, Chip. And I would say my answer to that is that your gut was your brain. I would say yes, both. I think that you have a responsibility as a leader, particularly when you are. You know, you said something earlier. You say, hey, I didn't command people. You know, you ran programs and structures. And I would beg to see that. I see that a little differently. I think that your frame as a leader to communicate the ethical thing and the right thing to do had secondary and tertiary impacts over many people in many systems. So from that standpoint, I apologize. You are absolutely a leader. But for me, when I say both, Chip, I mean this as a leader, responsible people, it's my responsibility to make ethical decisions and to make sure that the organizations move in the right direction. And each and every day I come to work, I try my best to do the right thing. But in getting to doing the right thing, it does. It goes into what my own personal psyche says and what my own emotional response to the environment, to the stimuli is. But what I have to really, really do is take a moment of pause and ask myself, how do I feel about that? And given the circumstances that may have presented, what is the right thing to do? And I need to make sure I reserve my visible frustration or anger or consent or agreement. Because I always want to operate in a state of curiosity. Help me understand more, tell me more. So I think that the answer is both. I want to use my brain, but I also want to operate from a place of principle whenever possible. How'd that land over there.

And that land on you, Chip?

Well, it's both. I agree. So emotion, emotion plays, in my view, a big part of decision making. You don't want to make decisions using what I would perceive as negative emotion, but positive emotion is a big stimulus in making the proper decision.

So that, to both of you, thank you so much. That's just excellent. So here's the piece that you both leaned into, and Vince did it. Around the pause, something happens. And however I'm wired, and this is probably the amygdala. This is the, you know, fight, flight, flea, peace. That's a reaction. It's normal. Somebody cuts you off on the highway. It's normal reaction, right? The next part is to reflect. Unless it has to be made in the moment, in the instant, to find a way to reflect and begin to notice. Notice. What is my emotional connection to this decision and to maybe this person or maybe to this ruling, maybe to the judge that you're going in front of, Chip, maybe to the command that you're speaking to. You know, all of this is part of the game. And in our world, Chip, we talk about this constant loopy stuff, feedback loops, bad thing happens. Reflect, react. Okay, slow down. Reflect, reflect, react. Until I can shift to reset and recover and respond. That's the work of deep, deep decision making. Once we can get recognized, my first response is, kick their ass. You know, my second response is, okay, Ray, what. What is up with you? What is. And you know, Chip, we use this all the time. What is it about, Ray? What is it about me that makes me feel. Feel this way, think this way, act this way? This constant reflection for us is important. And what I loved about one of our colleagues Vince and I, who have colleague who says, reflection is the little instrument of change. It's a way I can readjust my model, my head, my mindset, my mental model, so I can come at this a different way. What you both have done here is open the door for the people that are listening to start thinking about, okay, how do I get beyond reaction unless it's life or death, Right. How do I get beyond the reaction to a space where I can reflect, recover, reset? And then the big one is to respond as opposed to reacting. My dad died, and I'm in the place place, walking down the church with my dad in the coffin, and I'm behind him, and all of a sudden, emotion.

Yeah.

Tears, everything. And recognizing when we always say in our company to eat our own dog food. So I recognized, okay, it will subside. And it did. And I chose the emotion I wanted to have to be be with him. It was gratefulness, appreciation for all he taught me. And then the emotion will come again when I start to get upset again. And I had to keep returning to that other place. This isn't about, once you do it, you got it doesn't work like that. It's like all of a sudden, all of a sudden, how do I choose the emotion? I really want, really want to demonstrate recognizing that other stuff may come. Which now brings us to the last point in the article. Effective leaders are constantly in learning. So I'm going to pick on both you right now. We said a lot of sentences here today. I want to know something that. And you both talked about vulnerability in the past. To be a learner, you must be vulnerable and must be willing to open to new ideas. What's something that really resonated with you as a learner leader? What's one thing that really resonated with you? Chip, you're on.

Well, I don't take credit for it. I do to some degree. But it was brought home just very recently with the untimely passing of General Powell, of course. There's been many articles written about his life. I've read most of them. He was the consummate, in my view, consummate leader. One of the things that he espoused is don't overreact. It will be better tomorrow when you have time to reflect.

Beautiful.

If there's one thing that a leader, in my view, needs to do is, unless it is critical, reflect. And you reflect as you learn every day. I thought about that before the passing of General Powell. I always have told people, don't overreact tomorrow is another day, and tomorrow will be a better day. I think that's a good philosophy in life. That was one of the general's 13 philosophies. And in order to do that, you've got to learn something every day.

Just like now. Thank you. And I think about him still. Just a wonderful guy, Vince, learning what kind of what door opened for you today that. Cause I watch you do this so beautifully all the time. You're always in learning what's something that resonated with you today, brother.

So Chip kind of alluded to it, and as he talked about General Powell, it made me think just other leaders and what they were able to demonstrate and what captured my attention over the years. Right. And I have one boss. Names doesn't matter. But he would ask in his meeting. He was a general officer, and people have ideas. They would talk about things. He never got emotionally upset or whatever, but he would always say, well, why do you think that? Okay, so he was always in this place of inquiry. Number one, another great leader had a talent. When people were expressing things, they wanted immediate answers. He would always find a way to slow the thinking and get everyone in the room to understand that we don't have to make this decision in the next three seconds. Okay, so let's think about what we're saying. And even the way he asks questions, he had this talent for just slowing the conversation down around the emotional ideas that people had in the room. And so slowing things down and realizing that every issue requires an immediate fire, forget response. And it kind of correlates to what you just said, Chip, about General Powell. He did it on a grand scale. But those leaders who I found most successful had an innate talent for slowing down the conversation. And that allowed others who were at different points on their ladders or different points of leadership skill to catch up and to get on the same page and develop a common understanding where we were trying to go. And so I've tried to emulate that a little bit over the years and incorporate that into my leadership practice. I found that to be very successful.

Let me just interject something, Ray. What Vince said is directly on point to day, to day increasing the ability to understand and learn. As Vince was talking, I was thinking back when we would have sessions in our law firm to try to solve problems, and there'd be sometimes four, sometimes eight, sometimes 20 people sitting around a conference room table, and everyone has an idea. It's great to have ideas. I didn't. Certainly didn't know everything about everything. And what you do is when these blackboard ideas are bandied about, I think the great leader says, why? Why is that the answer? Because some people don't. Heck, they don't understand the question, let alone the answer. So it's a learning process to ask that question when there's all these answers being posted on the blackboard.

Why?

Well, that teaches me as the leader, why? Because I want to know the answer why as well. An excellent point, Vince. Absolutely on point.

All too often we just want to state our opinion and not give the theory underneath it. And yesterday I did a podcast with a senior leader, retired now from State Farm, and the comment that she made that was really powerful is that in this work, conversational leadership work, my journey in a meeting is to create a safe enough space so people can say things I haven't thought of. And rather than get into judgment of their position to get underneath it and understand why, get their meaning. So, to the points you guys have brought up today, curiosity, wondering, learning. Leaders that do that tend to be the most successful on the planet. So, gang, this has been, for me, just a marvelous journey of learning about YouTube in a different way than I have before, but also the incredible support you've given to the listeners that pop into our JLC podcasts. I'd like to offer each of you an opportunity to say what was most meaningful for you in these set of conversations that we had. What kind of that really got me, I enjoyed that. And it can be from any one of the podcasts that we've done together. What really got you the most? Who'd like to start?

So I think I'm the youngest, so I'll go first. So for me, I've enjoyed talking to Chip and meeting Chip and having great professional and collegial discussion over his last several weeks. I feel like it's an old friend that I've had for many, many years and I learned a lot. So thank you, Chip, man, for bringing great insight. This for me is how I stay in a place of London. I get to expose myself around other great leaders and I incorporate and I get better a little bit at a time today. So I've appreciated the dialogue, I've appreciated the state of learning. And with that, thank you, Ray, for the opportunity. And ladies and gentlemen, I hope the folks enjoyed our time together last several weeks. And I'm out.

So, Chip, how about you? That was great. Thank you, Vince.

Well, my thought is the discussions that we've had over the last four weeks on leadership are all interrelated. Who would have thought that we would Touch on trust, integrity, honesty, empathy, accountability, emotional decision making. It is a full circle process, and I have learned a lot over the last four weeks. If I could impart my overall thought process, what the last subject matter of our discussion was today, continuing to learn. And these podcasts and interacting with both of you are a stimulating intellectual process. That's how you move forward in life. It's just the opposite of stagnation. And I thank you both for that, because in four weeks, I've moved forward. I know a lot more now than I did four weeks ago, and that's what life is all about. And thank you for giving that to me.

So you're supposed to say, I'm out. When you're done, I'm out. So the. The piece for me was I. I have this deep mantra inside of me that there's always something interesting in the person that I'm talking with, and there's always something for me to learn from them. Vince puts me in this space of, you know, being the. The coach of the coaches, and I love you for that. It's really kind of you. I've learned as much from you, Vince, as I have. I think you may have learned from me. And Chip, same game. I have just learned so much listening to you talk about leadership from a unique perspective. And I don't want to speak for Vince, but I'll tell you, I love these conversations. I love the energy that you two have developed together, and I don't want it to end. So we'll have to think about something else. We could talk about possibly it's motorcycling and where are you guys from? Chicago. There you go. Motorcycles in Chicago. I'm sure we could think of something, but the idea of learning, learning, learning, learning. Critical. So what were the key points that we did? The first one talked about the fact that mentoring matters. You've been mentored and you mentor others. I keep running into people that have been. That have seen Vince as their mentor. Accountability is your personal brand. Your personal brand. Make a promise, keep it. Emotional decisions sometimes happen, and the position that this author took is they're rarely our best ones. Although emotion matters. I need to care. I need to care enough about this that we can get there. We can get there together. Vulnerable leaders produce great relationships, better teams. That was obvious all through this. And the last one, great leaders keep learning. Ladies and gentlemen, I hope you've enjoyed this as much as me. I've gotten so much from these two men in terms of really stimulating my thought process. I look forward to being with them again, I'm sure we can find something useful to talk about. And those of you listening, thank you again for taking the your time to be with us in this podcast today. We are very, very grateful and we hope you found and take a couple of minutes when this is over to reflect on some significant learnings from today's podcast. Take care everyone. Thank you. Sincerest thanks for listening to this episode.

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