Leader to Leader: Chip Boyle, Part 2

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Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for joining us here at JLC Media. This is a series that we have just started. It's a new series called Leader to Leader where I'm inviting people that have been in leadership roles to share with us aspects of their learnings as they became leaders. Both of these men that you're going to meet right now are superior in their leadership capabilities. They have learned and practiced. And one of the big things we say all the time in our little company is knowledge is interesting. It's not all that important until you can turn it into practical knowledge. And what you're going to hear today are some stories from the field about how these gentlemen developed their practical knowledge in their profession and even in their leadership presence. So that's what we're going to talk about today and I think you're going to really love it. If you want to hear more about who Chip is, you could tune into the previous podcast. Very first one, he talked a little bit about himself. But I'm going to get both men to give me about a 30 or 45 second synopsis of their leadership journey. So, Vince, why don't you start us off, tell us a little bit about your leadership journey.

Absolutely. So good afternoon, Chip and Ray, thank you for having me this afternoon. So for me, I spent about 30 years of my life in the military, specifically United States Navy, in health care, the healthcare sector. So I'm a healthcare executive. I spent probably the last 10 years or so of my military career working in large healthcare systems, leading healthcare systems at the individual brick and mortar building level and also later at the headquarters level where I looked at governance and the transition of healthcare responsibilities. And so since that time, I now work to support those leaders in those endeavors and working with, coaching and helping organizations to build and sustain teams towards positive outcomes. That's a little bit about me.

That's who I am and that is really wonderful. And those of you that are listening, Vince is part of JLC and he is continuing to support leaders in multiple places. He has just returned from Guam, a wonderful successful trip where that particular leadership team used him to develop their capabilities in Guam. And we're grateful to him and thank you for your service and we're grateful for the work that you do on behalf of JLC and the leaders that you touch. Vince, thank you. Chip, a little bit about you.

Well, good afternoon again, Ray and Vince and thank you for having me. This is a challenge because I'm in the presence of royalty. You know, I wake up this morning, I live in South Carolina. And you look out the window and you see this beautiful country that we're in. And it's just great to be alive. And retired in South Carolina, I was a trial lawyer. I am retired now, about 10 years, actually practiced in Detroit, Michigan and then had a later career in Chicago, Illinois and retired down here 10 years ago from my practice in Chicago, Illinois. All I did six days a week was prepare for trials. A tough job, but you learn a lot. So hopefully we can impart some of that learning here this afternoon.

Oh, you both have so much to offer the audience and me. I am looking forward to learning from you both. So I did a little setup for this, ladies and gentlemen that are listening. And I read a lot. I read a lot. And there is a theme that is in all the literature about leadership and I'll read the theme. One of the themes that pops up all the time is that mentorship. Mentorship, somebody else coaching you on how to be the best self you can bring forward. Mentorship is the most powerful accelerant for leadership development. And I know that there are stories about this that are happening and again, we want to make sure that the stories are very real for you. And I'm going to start off with Chip and I'm going to have Vince react to his story. I think you're going to enjoy it because I loved the story first time I heard it from Chip. So Chip, this one is all yours. Give us one of those stories from the field.

Well, thank you. It's a story. I'm now 73. So this story developed probably 43 years ago when I was roughly 30 at the time. I was a newbie, kind of a sprout lawyer in a firm in Detroit and found myself after about three years in practice trying my first case in federal court. Well, there's a big difference between federal court and state court. And the primary difference is the quality of the judges in state court. Anywhere judges are either appointed and then re elected or run for election. That means that the judges are usually lawyers that couldn't make a living and they have to run for re election, which means they need money. Contrast that with a federal judge who is appointed for life. There's only been two or three in the history of our country that have been impeached. It never happens. So these are pretty smart people. So I find myself in federal court. I believe it was my first federal court trial. And of course I want to impress the client and I want to impress the judge and I certainly want to impress the guy who's sitting at the table across from me. And one of the things I did, which I of course discovered was improper, was I objected a lot. And they were perfectly proper objections. Every one of them should have been sustained, or I wouldn't have made the objection to just the most inconsequential stuff you've ever conceived of. Aston answered, your honor, when it was irrelevant. So what? Let him ask and answer it again. So now the trial's over, and this federal judge, a lovely man who's unfortunately no longer with us. His name was James Churchill. I was probably 30 at the time. He was probably 60 at the time. A very experienced, smart federal judge. One of the things that he did, and one of the only judges that did this was once the trial was over, I think I prevailed in this case. I'm pretty sure I did. But once the trial was over, the judge would invite the lawyers. This is now. The jury's gone, the case is over, and now we're back in chambers. The judge would invite the lawyers back, and he would say, would you like me to critique your performance? Well, I knew this federal judge because there was a lot of pretrial proceedings, and I really liked him. He was a class person and judge. So I, of course, said, absolutely, judge. I mean, I'm here to learn. And here's what he said that has stuck with me now for 43 years. And what I tried to tell people that are subordinate younger than myself. Chip, he says, you don't have to chase every rat. You only chase the big ones, those little ones. Let those little ones just crawl down their little hole because they're really immaterial. And that, in a leadership sense, says two things to me. One, prioritize. There are so many issues out there, but prioritize 1 through 20, and the important ones are 1 through 5. And when you get down to number 30, forget about that issue. That's leadership. The second but more important thing is here's a federal judge who is a mentor, his mission in life. A wonderful, wonderful man. Help others to be better. He didn't have to do what he did. And I sat there and marveled at the way that he tried to make me a better lawyer. Very, very few people do that. Very few judges do that. And in business, great leaders do it because they want you to become that great leader. But that's a story that stuck with me now for 43 years, and I'll never forget that. That'll be on my lips when I pass this life.

I hope other things will also be on Your lips when you pass this life. But good luck to you on that one. Vince. How did that land on you, and what are you thinking in failing?

Yeah, so, first and foremost, that was a powerful story. Chip. You're a great storyteller, and. And, boy, I could see how you became a great attorney. So I heard the two things that really resonated with me. Number one, you went to see this federal judge, and you're doing this case, so I have to assume you didn't know him, you didn't have a prior relationship with him. And so what really stuck out to me was that great leaders can recognize growing talent. And if you are on a journey and if you're forthright and sincere and you don't necessarily have to always go out and seek a mentor, sometimes mentors will seek you. They will recognize your ambition. So it was interesting that this judge saw something in you, Chip, that he took the time out to pull people back in chambers and to provide that mentorship and that guidance, number one. And so he's very busy. You weren't a big fish on his plate, you know, in the scope of things he had to do. So I thought that was incredible that he, number one, recognized your talent and your beginnings, and he reached down, he gave you something that has carried with you and sustained. Number two, I thought it was interesting that you were able to recognize the analogy that he provided for you. He's talking about the number of rejections that you were making during your cases and your ability to receive that information and to internalize it and to improve and to enhance your leadership capabilities. I thought it was an incredible story, and it was powerful. We stuck with you for 43 years. There's dignity and simplicity, and he gave you something that you would be able to remember and to carry on, and you have. And I'm sure that you played it forward in your own career. That's what I was hearing, Ray.

I think it was fantastic. Did he hear you very well there, Chipper?

Yes, exactly. Exactly right.

I think this is. So there's a sense in learning, and I don't know when it stops, but it did stop for me every once in a while where I was no longer vulnerable. I thought I knew everything. I thought I knew what to do, until usually I got a 2x4 right in the head that said, no, you don't. So I would go in and out of these places of behaving like I knew what was going on until something unusual happened that enabled me to go back to being vulnerable enough to learn so magnificent. Great feedback. Do you have a story similar to that, Vince?

Yeah, man. Chip, that was such a good one. I don't think I could touch his story. But, you know, as you talked, it did remind me of my true introduction into leadership. So in the military circles, our CEO and COO positions, I characterize as commanding officer. CEO, an executive officer is the coo. So I was in my COO or my executive officer tour, I met my boss, who was a gentleman I'd never met before. And that was a surprise to spend 25 plus years in service and not know many people in leadership circles. So I was working for a man that I'd never met before. I call it a cold meet. And so I didn't know what to expect from him, and I didn't know how that relationship was going to match, but I was there to support him. And so one of the things that he did to ensure that we had a good start to our relationship was he sat down with me at the end of every week. So once a week on Fridays, he and I carved out time together. And we would sit together and we would reflect, and he would just ask a couple of very simple questions. He would go, how did things go this week? And what really stood out to you is things that went well and tell me one or two things that didn't go quite as you expected. And so I would share with him my thoughts, and then he would reciprocate and give me feedback and tell me what he heard me say, share his observations. But what was really powerful was then he would share with me his perspective of his week. He would share with me what he did well. And most importantly, he would tell me where he thought he did not perform well and where he had shortcomings. And the power in that was the vulnerability that he showed to me. And he helped me to begin to understand that it was okay not to have all the answers all the time. It was okay to be able to state out in the open that, you know, I really don't know what the right answer is, but he would communicate. But together as a team, we will together figure out what the right answer so that we can help the organization move in the direction that it should. His name was Matt Palmer. He's now a retired Dental Corps officer in the Navy. He's probably one of the most prolific leaders I'd ever had the privilege of working with. And it was that vulnerability that he showed and that he really opened himself and allowed me to see his vulnerabilities. And that helped Enhance the quality of my leadership.

That's fantastic. Chip, what are you thinking hearing that?

Two things, feedback and teamwork. Vince, that you had one lucky experience with that gentleman. And listening to you and recollecting on all of the folks that I've had to deal with in a professional life, as bosses, as mentors, there's maybe five out of a hundred that would do that. And those five are real leaders, real mentors. I would work for people that wouldn't do that. And it was. I don't want to say it was depressing, but you always have to have feedback, positive or negative, and there's nothing like teamwork. That gentleman said it all. You're very lucky.

I was.

So we have a whole piece on. Feedback is the breakfast of champions. Sometimes we don't take the time to really talk through what has occurred. It is one of the things that we hold on to deeply. And your story for me, Vince, did another thing. One of the things we say in our company, Chip, is that the conversation is the relationship. And many times we don't engage to that level. So you engaged in conversation each week, developed a relationship to work on. What Chip gave me yesterday, trust, integrity, safe space, opportunity to learn. Magnificent. We have people like that. And I think in my own life, I failed to let them know how much they meant to me over time because there were opportunities. I could have said thank you. I didn't. So today I spend my time trying to make sure that when somebody does something like you're doing right now, both of you, that I honor that, and I'm grateful for what you give to us. Conversation is a relationship. Feedback is so important. And you teed another thing up. Reflection. Joe Marshall, one of our associates, says reflection is the little engine of change. If I don't have time to reflect, I just move on to the next thing, whatever the next thing is. And then I lost the opportunity to learn. That was great, gentlemen. Thank you. All right, these are stories from the field. So, Chip, I think you have another one for us, don't you?

Well, I do, and actually I have two, but I want to think which one would best tie in what we just heard from Vince. And here it is. I was hired as a young lawyer by a wonderful man. I was 25. He was 55, 30 years older than me. Senior man in the law firm and just an imposing Italian American gentleman. Imposing in that he's 6 foot 4 and 280 pounds. He was in Normandy on D day, was a security officer for General Patton. But a man that was soft spoken, but imposing physically. So he hires me, and I am his back then, a gopher. I would do exactly what he told me every day. I'd be there before he was and I'd leave after he left. Well, the story is one of his cases, and he only handled big cases. He asked me to do a part of his case, an assignment. So I sat and listened to him. And one of the things he didn't do that Ray has taught me to do is when you finish a discussion, you always say, do we understand each other? Are we on the same page here? Do you have any questions? Well, he didn't do that. So I performed the assignment. And I did a lot of work. I can't remember exactly what the assignment is. I only remember what he said after it was over. So I perform the assignment. I do a lot of research, you know, as a lawyer. Let's contrast lawyer with real estate. You put a restaurant in a location, a location, a location. That's where you put the restaurant. As a lawyer, the only thing you do is prepare, prepare and more prepare. Well, I wasn't going to let my senior partner down, so I prepared and prepared and more prepared. And now I had the answer. I don't know, it might have been two or three days later. So I go into the corner office and I say, well, here's your answer, boss. And the long and short of it is I misunderstood the assignment. It was the wrong answer because I had the wrong question because I didn't say, are we on the same page here, boss? And the boss didn't say to me, chip, do you understand what I'm meeting here? So that's half of the story. The half of the story is make sure you're on the same page. But the beauty. And this is not 50 years ago, 48 years ago. I'll never forget this either. My memory is such I'll forget what I did yesterday, but I don't forget what happened 45 years ago. The beauty of the story when you're talking about leadership is once we discover that I've screwed up and it's 80% my fault and 20% his fault, he looks at me and he says something like, you did a lot of preparation. It was great, great work. And now I know why I hired you. I did it all wrong, but the compliment was, God, you did a good job.

That's great.

And this was the kind of guy he was. And you talk about a mentor. He's my mentor. Father figure for life. Just a kind, sweet, benevolent Dictator. Unfortunately, he's no longer with us, but it shows you two things. One, make sure you're on the same page. And number two, even if you're not, make sure you take a positive away from the negative.

That's fantastic. All right. I know that Vince is going to react to this and respond in a way that is so much part of what we do. So it's all yours, brother. What did you hear and what are you thinking and feeling?

Yeah. So, you know, as I listened to that story, I thought it was powerful in the JLC language and the methodology we talked about. What you talked about, Chip, was closing the loop. How incredibly important. When someone shares information with you to develop a common understanding of what is being said, you have to close the loop. And it can be very simple. So what I'm hearing you say is, or this is what I understood. Do I have that correct? Am I missing something? So that close the loop component was a very powerful part of what you just shared, Philip. And the second one, which was even more important is when you're giving feedback, boy, as a leader, it's very important to list the positive things that happen even before you talk about the things that didn't necessarily go so well. Hey, Chip, what was great was I can see the quality of this presentation, the quality of your preparation. This is fantastic. This research is going to give us opportunities to do X, Y, and Z. In addition to that, we could have clarified point A to this extent, and we need to work on that so that positive affirmation of efforts of the people that work for you are just as important as correcting in your story. It sounds like your boss came in. He knew when he saw the information that it was the wrong question. But he told you just how great of everything, how wonderful. You were a wonderful employee. So that was just another spot on example. Man of. He was a great leader. He was a great leader to see that and to enhance that capability. So those are the two things in your story that really, really resonated with me. And as I listened, it really had me reflecting on those experiences in my own. In my own career.

So here I am, closing the loop. Did he. Did he hear you? Well, did he get your meaning, Chip?

Absolutely. Yeah. That I look back at sitting. Sitting in the chair in front of his desk, and that's exactly what my feeling was 40 some years ago.

There's something so strong in the ability to recognize. It's three things. So thing one, I want to tell you two, something, and I. Blah, blah, blah. I use Words to tell you both something. Each of you, as you hear my words, create personal meaning. If you talk to each other, you'll get a shared meaning. Oh, I think he meant this. Oh, he meant that. I don't. Shared meaning. The third, which is everything in an organization. How do we develop common understanding among the three of us so we can align our actions going forward? I think that is. You just beautifully stated that entire piece. I think we're going to get another. Another podcast out of YouTube, but I don't want to do it now because we're kind of. We ran. Ran beautifully in terms of time, but I'm going to let the audience have a chance to reflect on this. So I'm going to do a checkout with kind of a quick header. I'd like you to envision the leader that had the most impact on you ever. Find that it could be one of the people we already spoke about. Find that person. What is the number one thing that human being taught you, and what is the number one thing you might have taught that leader? Who would like to go first?

Well, I'll go first. It's the same person. Sam Garjia, my father figure, mentor. Lawyers. Lawyers typically try to slit each other's throat. That's how you allegedly win. Right. What this guy taught me was always respect your opponent and be civil to your opponent. When your opponent prevails, congratulate him and tell his clients that they had a great lawyer. It doesn't cost you to do that. It's just a civil, kind, and generous thing to do.

I love that.

That has stayed with me for years. And the thing that I taught him. The only thing I taught him was how to hit a nine iron. He was a much better golfer than I was.

Fantastic. Thank you. Vince, you got one for us?

Yeah, man. I think if I really look back, the person that really stands out to me, you know, my dear friend, retired Rear Admiral Terry Moulton, he was the Deputy Surgeon general for the United States Navy Medical Department. Chip and I had the privilege of working for him three different times in my military career and towards the end, and what he really did and how he impressed me was he had an innate ability to see the best in people. As you get into jobs, you're dealing with different personalities, and it's very easy sometimes to get frustrated and get sidetracked and, you know, and when you don't see people who you feel are putting their best effort forward or giving their best to the organization. But he had this gift, man, for always seeing the best in a person. And he treated people with that degree of respect. And I think that he was loved and admired for that skill set and that ability. And it resonated with me, man, because it always made me and other people want to work for him. I. I would walk through a mile of broken glass to be on his team. So I tried to learn from that. Throughout my career, I always tried to treat people well. I tried to see the best in the people around me. And I tried to smile every day. You saw the guy, he was always smiling. So he taught me that it was okay. People need to see that you're happy and that you enjoy what you're doing. So that was something that I carried. I tried to incorporate in my practice directly as a result of. Of my numerous encounters with Rear Admiral Terry Moton retired. And what did I teach him? I don't know, man. I think that if I taught him anything in the last couple years we worked together, I tried to bring my south side, Chicago real directness and bluntness to the table Sometimes. Every now and then, he would allow me to come into this office and have lunch with him. And during lunch, that was kind of a free session to kind of say what you wanted to say. And I would sometimes tell my boss, sometimes you just need to say no. You see the best in everybody. But sometimes the right answer is no. I want you to practice no once a day for me. And so he would laugh, and he would incorporate that. So maybe he took some of that from me, maybe he did not. But that was a lovely relationship, and we have the privilege of still working with one another here in JLC to this day. And I love it. And I hope that it's a lifelong. Our friendship and relationship and the opportunity to continue to learn. And I'm out.

I think I. By the way, that's one of our rituals to say I'm out when I'm done talking. That's how we end all of our meetings and all of our conversations. Chip. And there's a. There's a piece there for me. I learned this little technique. I was in the Middle east working. And one of the presenters was Margaret Mead's daughter. And she used this as a methodology to help us reflect biggest impact of a leader on me and what might have been my impact on that leader. Because you always. It's a relationship and it's a loop, and the conversations create such opportunity for learning. This set of conversations today were magnificent. Thank you both. I cannot tell you how grateful I am that you chose to be part of this conversation today. Those of you that are listening, we're going to do another one because I think Chip has another story or two in there. So we'll do another stories from the Field and the three of us will produce that one maybe in a week or so. And I really hope you enjoy the next set too. But I know this one was really good. I know you guys have really, really taken a lot from it. You can find this podcast on gojlc.com and you can find us on gojlc.com if you need something. You want to learn more about leadership and how we see conversational leadership, jump in there and be part of us. We're very, very grateful that you took your 21st century asset of time and took that time to do better for you. Leaders are always about helping people achieve their dreams and the way we do that is by becoming a better and better and better me. Thank you for being with us. Very, very grateful. Take care, ladies and gentlemen, and we will see you next time. Sincerest thanks for listening to this episode.

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