Leader to Leader: Joe Marshall

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for joining us here at JLC Media. My name is Ray Jorgensen, and with me are two of my colleagues that I have worked with for. One for a long time and one for a shorter period of time. And both of these associates, JLC associates, have already had a tremendous impact people. However, this is an interesting one for me because one of our associates, Joe Marshall, who's going to introduce himself in a few moments, has had a absolutely stellar leadership career. And with it came he's a human being. So all the challenges that we all face have come with that. And we're going to talk a little bit about that. And I think you're going to. I mean, I absolutely love this man. I think you're going to enjoy listening to him talk about what it was like for him sitting in that seat for a long period of time. Colleen Sullivan is with me also. She is our chief operating officer at jlc, and she told me the other day that she knows me longer than she knows her husband. I don't know why she said that, but she did. It's kind of like kind of a confusing sentence, but I loved it anyway, and I'm happy to be here with her.

Both husbands put together.

Both husbands put together. So this is really even better. Now. I really feel honored at some very, very deep level. So, Colleen, how about you just give us a brief overview of you and our journey together with jlc, and then I'll pivot to Joe so he can tell us a little bit about his background.

Sure. I've been working with JLC for over 12 years, and actually I met Ray at an event where Ray was actually speaking with you, Joe. It was a huge event. There were over, I think, 1,000 people, and it was just an absolute pleasure. So that's. I didn't get to meet Joe at that particular point in time, but I did meet Ray, and that was really where my journey began. And now it's an honor to be here, you know, learning more about Joe with his leader hat on versus his JLC hat.

Yeah, I'm looking forward to that also, Colleen. I think it's gonna be really fun. And this is our Leader to Leader series. And as I'm thinking, I'm interviewing a number of leaders. We have a whole bunch of podcasts. If those of you listening, if you want to hear more, we have more out there. Varied backgrounds, really, just interesting, interesting people, and I think you'll love them. And when I was thinking about this with Colleen, I said, Joe Marshall, he is a leader. Forever and has a terrific background and lots to teach us moving forward. One of our big things in our work is that great leaders are constantly learning, and even kind of moderate leaders like myself are kind of always learning. So this is an opportunity for me to learn. So, Joe, this is your opportunity to kind of give us a little bit, you know, inside of, you know, we don't want an hour but a couple of minutes of what is your leadership background? Where have you been? What have you done?

All right. Well, thank you, Ray, for the kind words. I'm happy to share my experience and where I've been, what I've done. Briefly, I retired at the end of February 2020 from active federal service, if you will. At the time that I retired, I was working in the secretariat again. In the Department of the Navy, you have the secretary, you have the Undersecretary of the Navy, which is kind of an assistant or a chief of Staff for the Secretary of the Navy, and then you have four assistant Secretaries of the Navy. So for a year, I was one of those in an acting capacity. I was one of those Assistant Secretaries of the Navy. There are political appointees sometimes when administration changes, there are gaps and it takes a while. So I was privileged to serve for the Secretary of the Navy for a solid year in that capability. For five years, I was the deputy, the civilian deputy behind that political appointee. Before that, I had a little time at the Defense Health Agency, but it was very short. And then before that, I was the controller at Navy Medicine, where I was privileged to work with a lot of providers and a lot of very dedicated people trying to figure out how to make a medical enterprise more effective money go further. And before that, I was the. In the program planning business, which is budget planning, essentially for the Department of Defense, specifically the Department of the Navy. Before that, I worked for a couple years at the Department of Agriculture as an associate chief Financial officer. And then that's kind of my senior executive service career. Before that, I spent 25 years in uniform and was a Navy captain, had command of a ship and a variety of pretty senior ashore responsibilities associated with resource kinds of jobs, which is what I worked at. So is that enough? Ray is kind of a. I'll ask.

Colleen if it's enough. But what I really love about what you just did, anybody listening, whether you're in the civilian specter of the world right now and you're just. You're serving in private sector or in schools or in community service, this is a man who spent his life in service, in service to and to say that I'm grateful for his service is an understatement and honored by it. So, Colleen, what resonated with you as you were listening?

You know, I think what resonated most is just the uniqueness, Joe, of your journey from being active duty to being a civilian, then to kind of shifting into that political appointee, and now where you're sitting as an entrepreneur and a consultant. So it's almost like you in your leadership journey, you have led from different perspectives and different chairs. So I think that's very unique because many people just perhaps stay in the active duty or in the civilian world in business, and don't have the experience to walk that path in so many different ways.

This, at some level, ladies and gentlemen that are listening, this is a chance for you to get to know us a little better as a community, but certainly one of our absolutely stellar executive coaches. And that's mostly what Joe has been doing for a lot of people in leadership positions in military medicine right now and beyond. So we look forward to this conversation today. Joe, did you forget anything?

No, I don't think so. I mean, I'll just kind of respond to what Colleen said. I think some people are military, and again, when they look for a second career or what are they going to do post their military time, again, many people go into industry. Some people come into government service. I'm not the only one by any means. I think there is a fair amount of military crossover. I think one of the things that's interesting about the crossover is the fact.

That.

There'S a lot of leadership training in the military and a lot of leadership discussion and focus in the civilian world. I would say there is some, but it's at a much lower level. And so I think the opportunities for civilians in government service to get leadership training is less in the world outside the Department of Defense. And I'm sure there's other niches where there's a lot of great leadership training programs. But this. This thing about leadership and how do we lead people effectively and get the best possible results? It's an enduring question. And for the people who do it and do it well, my experience is that they are always in a learning mode and they can never learn enough. Sadly, the people who are not very good at leadership, the same thing applies. They also can never get enough, which is unfortunate, because we would really like to be able to provide, I think, a basic module of leadership preparedness and know that that would serve as kind of a consistent baseline for people to operate from but it's this. And this is why I think it is so challenging, is that the baseline is ever moving.

Mm. And that baseline is moving now in the midst of what we're all facing. This is. And once I said post pandemic, and somebody got upset with me because it's like, the pandemic's not over. Right. Okay, got it. Thank you. That is true. And all the unintended consequences that have come with that are not over. So there's a bigger question I will ask you on another podcast, and that is what brought you to jlc, because I think there are some. I know why I stay in this work. Right. I know what it is in terms of me seeing myself in a position of coaching, caring, helping, serving, supporting. And I will ask you that at another time. But I think that's a second podcast for us, this one today. I'd like to use this time so that you and Colleen can have a conversation about how to respond effectively in what this was actually described by a military leader in a Vuca V U C. A world. Vuca V is volatility. Volatile world that we live in right now. My school friends would be nodding at me at this moment because especially my superintendents and school board members, they used to have school board meetings and no one would come. They actually offered food and coffee so they would come to the meetings. Now they're jammed. Everybody wants to talk to them and position their agenda items so that the board reacts to it or the superintendent does. So volatile. It's uncertain. It is uncertain. We're not really sure how this is going to play out now. You know, many people in the social, philosophical world say we never really know, but we act like we do, but we really don't, because we know what's going on in the present moment, and sometimes we're really surprised at what happens next. Volatile. Uncertainty. There's complexities going on here. There have always been complexities going on, but they've risen to the surface. So now we're in a world that truly is noticing all the interdependencies. I make a decision here, and there's 50 other people that are noticing that decision and trying to figure out what it means to them and how to act upon it. By the way, that is one of Colleen and Joe's greatest gifts, is to help people build common understanding so they can get aligned. Action. Volatile, uncertain, complex. The next one, and I can certainly relate to this one, an ambiguous world. I cannot tell you how many bosses I had in my career as a leader Many, many, many. And everybody had a different opinion about what I should be working on. I needed to figure out how to deal with that ambiguity going forward. So there we are. Volatile, uncertain, complex, ambiguous. So before I shift to Joe. So, Colleen, how did that land on you? And then I'm going to ask Joe to tell me how he helps people, coaches people through that environment. How did those words land on you, Colleen?

Yeah, well, you know, they landed on me when I'm thinking, you know, when is our world not full of all of those in a VUCA world? You know, I think that we have been living in a VUCA world for as long as I can remember. And the other thing that resonated with me is looping back to what Joe said, knowing that we're in this world that is volatile, that is ever changing, full of ambiguity and uncertainty. If a leader shows up in a space of knowing with a fixed mindset and that they have the answers and, you know, and they're going to power through, it is a different way to respond in a VUCA world versus showing up in a space of learning. And that looks different and that will produce very, very different results individually, collectively with your team and systemically throughout an organization.

That's lovely. That's lovely. And that sense of the fixed mindset is. And I grew up with this. I was taught, and you needed to know more, no more than the people you were leading. And it was like if you didn't know more than what they, how could you possibly be their leader? It was a knowledge based assessment, so to speak, to determine whether I could take the next step in leadership.

Tell me what to do.

Oh, yeah. Let me tell you this, Colleen. Do this right. And it ended up being something very different as I grew into the space and learned that I think VUUCA has been with us, VUCA has been with us for a long time. So those of you that are listening, each of you look for, look for one or two things that you can call takeaways from this conversation. And I think the big part of the conversation is going to start right this second because we've set up why we're talking about it, what we hope you'll understand about those four edges. And now here's an opportunity for my good friend, my good friend and associate to give you some ideas about in dealing, responding to this VUCA world. Joe, what are some things that you bring to the surface as soon as you can when one of your clients, you know, because you fundamentally are an executive coach, a mentor, fundamentally, when your mentee brings this forward. What are some of the first things you start to say to them as you coach them through this space?

So again, thank you, Ray. I would say sometimes I personally feel some guilt at a question like this because I feel like I should have a checklist that I should be able to give people or to talk about. And over time I've gradually gotten over that because I think leadership and organizations are complex and there are so many facets and so many different scenarios that frankly, providing a checklist is not necessarily germane or helpful. So it becomes more important to understand a leader's context and the things they're struggling with and to begin to help them think about their response to all those many challenges. I would say that in a leader, one of the things I talk about that I think is the first among equal of leadership skills is awareness. Because I think in many times in management, just as you said, there was a point in your upbringing where leadership was a knowledge based activity and you just needed to learn enough so that if you knew enough and if you'd memorized enough, then somehow that was going to be the key to help you pick the lock. Of course it isn't true. I mean, is in many cases helpful to have more detailed knowledge and more technical knowledge and let you make more informed decisions. But I think all over the lot we have examples of people who were very good leaders, but frankly had little to no technical expertise, but they understood managing people. And I think the first key to managing people is being aware of how you as an executive are being perceived or how you are acting. So there are times when your team needs you to show up as teacher. There are times when your teacher needs you to show up as a listener. There's time when the team needs you to show up and just ask simple questions, even about very complex things, because those simple, seemingly simple concepts are many times key to understanding what are we trying to do and how are we trying to get there. So I think for executives, this awareness there is certainly, I think at the junior executive level, an attempt to say, okay, I need to have this kind of omniscient, centered me. And that's kind of the me that I need to carry into every meeting. I think that's a fine developmental stage to kind of go through. But I think ultimately, as you work with people and as you work with your teams, you need to have a more refined point to your executive inquiry, to your executive quest. And I think this is one of those things. It's not negative, it's not nasty. But there are times when your team needs you to show tough love, that the team needs you to be authoritative and directive in order for them to integrate or to be empowered enough to break through to the next level.

So I love that I'm going to let Colleen react to that. And Joe, you brought me back to a meeting I had with a private sector group maybe four or five years ago and the question they brought forward was this, why do different levels of leaders that I'm leading, the people under me that are in my care, why do they need different stuff? And my response was, and Colleen actually has heard me say this, if I'm brand new, I don't have the personal practical knowledge that the person that has been here for three to five years has. I need external structure. You just got to recognize the distinction. Not everybody needs the the same thing, they just don't. But a brand new leader, they need some structure because they don't have any personal practical knowledge that will bring them forward. As they move to proficient and then to mastery, they start developing their PPK and their own structures. Joe, that beyond brilliant around that sense of awareness is critical. And then making sure that I can see who it is, my awareness allows me to determine who what does this human being need to be successful in their current space. Colleen, what are you thinking?

Yeah, I think you have a great example of meeting people where they are, right. And I love the leadership with itness piece. Right. So I think when you talk about awareness, there's multiple aspects, right? There's awareness as a leader. When I'm leading my team, am I meeting each person where they are so I can meet them there and bring them along with us? And then really, you know, we also think a lot about self awareness. I think you mentioned this one as well. Jo is I'm recognizing and how am I showing up in this conversation? What does my team need from me? How are my words landing on them? Do I need to bring a tough love aspect or do I need to show up as teacher? So I love those two edges of awareness. It's that self awareness piece for the leader. But it's also meeting my team where they are to ensure I'm bringing forward what they need so they can develop and enhance their ppk, so then they can shift a behavior, shift a process, you know, or make it happen. And I think a lot of times people forget that piece. As Joe mentioned, it's a list. Here you go. Did you do the list? Yeah. Well, why the hell are we doing the list? Because you told me they lose sight of what it is we're trying to accomplish and the end state. So I love those two edges of awareness that he laid on the table.

Beautiful. Colleen. Joe, what are you thinking right now?

Well, there's kind of a. There's a second phase of awareness that I talk about, which is that, you know, you need to think, what I said a few minutes ago. You need to think consciously about how are you going to go into this session and what does the team need, you know, know, do they. Do they need to have a stern talk about deadlines and responsibility, accountability, or do they need you to ask lots of questions to kind of break down the subject so they can get a better handle on it? I think as kind of a. As a refinement on that, as executives get more experience, they have to be able to move seamlessly through those different roles in a single meeting. And again, many. So it's not a siloed kind of an approach. I think it's important to ask these questions and see where people are and then respond appropriately as the discussion unfolds so that if it turns out that, well, we haven't had accountability or we aren't producing results on the schedule, well, we need to know why. Why, you know, and we need to unpack that. And if we need to say, okay, I understand what you're telling me, why there hasn't been much progress in the last few weeks or month or whatever. But. But I want to make it clear to the group that that's unacceptable, and I want more focus on this.

And.

And if I need to do more to help you to clear barriers, to improve communications, or if you need some resource that you don't have at your disposal, excellent. Then I want to work with you on that. But I am looking for results, and.

I can't give you a resource if you don't let me know that you need it. See, the other thing that I've watched you do beautifully in your interaction, certainly I was with you to weeks ago on a very sensitive interaction, was to make sure that you took the time to close, we call it close the loop, to make sure the person that you're saying something to really understands your message really gets the meaning intended out of that, that was absolutely brilliant. Well, Colleen, couple of comments on what you've gotten out of this so far, because we can come to the end of our podcast time here. What has so far, based on what Joe has said to you, what has resonated most?

I think really the thing that's resonating most with me right now is one of our leadership standards. And I think Joe gave critic gave amazing examples of the quality of the professional relationship impacts your ability to produce results. They are interconnected. And awareness, leadership awareness enables the relationship to get stronger. Right. Self awareness and how you bring forward, as he mentioned, you need to really pay attention and flow through these different types of roles that you need to be playing in order to give the team what they need. And the other piece that I heard was talking about being mutually invested in their success. What resources do you need? What things are perhaps surfacing that I can help you get through all of those things, create a space of trust and enhance the quality of the professional relationship, which at the end of the day is going to absolutely help you produce a quality result.

The things, you know, Colleen, that the three of us have been working on lately is this idea of trust. And this is just a beautiful example that you gave us. Joe, unless I'm in conversation with you, unless I understand what your needs are, you don't really know me because I'm not demonstrating any understanding. And if I don't know you, I can't trust you. And I've listened to three different leaders in the last sets of podcasts say trust is absolutely critical. And then I decided, okay, that's great. Now what? Let me go chase that a bit and what I learned from the literature search that I did. It's very difficult to trust someone you don't know. And it is through these conversations that the relationships are developed. And that's where all the goodness of leadership kind of lives in that quality of the relationship. So as we close this out, Joe, I really, and I know people that are listening are probably, probably going tell me more. So I'm going to ask you to tell me more. If there was one or two things you would say to an aspiring or sitting leader to help them on their journey, their developmental journey as a leader, what would be the one or two things you might say to them?

So I think, well, we, we talked a little bit about the awareness piece and the nuances there. And again, I think having the patience to develop that as a skill, many times we're expecting, as I say, microwave solutions, when the truth is that it's more of a crock pot experience. You've got to put some of the right ingredients to work and give it some time. But the other thing that is important, I think, is for a leader to understand a little bit more about how people communicate. And fundamentally, we as human beings do not communicate efficiently. Or as effectively as we think we do.

Well said. Well said.

So I think this. So as you think more about that, many times you feel like. I know many times leaders feel frustrated by the fact that, well, I tell them what to do, but they don't do what I say. Well, do you close the loop with them? What did they hear you say? What do they understand that they are supposed to do? Well, no, I don't really do that because, you know, it might seem a little awkward or something. Well, no, it's not awkward at all if you fold it into your conversation and make it clear that you are still open to interaction. Yes. Paint that black, did you? How does that land on you? What are you thinking?

You know.

Oh, well, I didn't know there was a regulation that says you can't paint those black, you know, and so again, giving the opportunity for that kind of exchange from the trivial to the very complex is, I think, hugely important. And that act of asking someone, pausing to say, what did you hear me say? How does that land on you? Creating that little bit of space is, I think, very close to the top of the list as a second skill behind awareness.

That's great. Yeah. I just love that we have many, many examples of leaders speaking and thinking that I was clear, I was transparent. That was a great presentation. I did the best I could. And then people do 35, 40 different things and everyone's frustrated and angry. Rather than that second, second recommendation that Joe made, Always close the loop. Words are linear, minds are very complex, and if you don't take the time to close the loop, you really don't know what meaning they took from this. Okay, let's do a quick checkout here. And we always start end with a checkout. And Joe alluded to something else, which I love twice, twice in his recommendations, and that is to spend some personal time thinking and reflecting because he has actually brought to our team, reflection is the little engine of change. And I so love his phraseology around that. So here we are. We're going to reflect real quick. What stood out for you, Colleen, in this conversation? Because from my vantage point, this was a great conversation. I think people listening will really love it, and I want to do more. So, Colleen, what kind of really stood out for you from this conversation, and why did that stand out?

I think in the last interaction, just hearing the importance of closing the loop. Because, I mean, I work with executives as well and even with parents. Right. I told my kid that 12 times. Okay, did you close the loop? Were there earbuds in, you know, and I think that, that closing the loop really helps you move towards common understanding. And that's what we're trying to get right. We all want to make sure we're on the same page. You can't get aligned action. People can't shift their behavior. People can't shift or change unless there's a common understanding. So that sense of closing the loop, because I can think I had the best presentation, I can think that everybody knows what they're supposed to be doing, but do I know? And am I going to pause to close the loop to ensure I'm developing the common understanding instead of just guessing? And I'm out.

Thank you. Yeah. Those of you that are listening, notice she said, I'm out. One of the techniques and traditions and practices that we teach is that in a checkout, which is what this is, when we're done talking, we say, I'm out. So what stood out for me there was incredible, incredible thoughts about if I'm actually practicing. And to Joe's point, it may feel awkward at first. It gets better. And patience is everything. We can find everything in a heartbeat. You know, the Internet, you know, Alexa, tell me this, Siri, tell me that punch in a thing and all of a sudden you get all this stuff. Right. Sometimes we need to be exceedingly patient and disciplined in order for these practices to go forward. Joe, from your standpoint and God, thank you for the way you reacted to this. This is a out loud reflection question I did to Colleen and to Joe. What stood out the most for you and why?

Yeah, so I. Well, I appreciate the opportunity to talk about these things in kind of small modules. I think the other thing I really want latch onto here at the end of our conversation is about the reflection piece. So I heard someone say last week that, you know, it's not experience that we value, it's reflection on the experience.

Beautiful.

And there are so many executives who are so busy and they think of reflection as a luxury or that's something that occurs, you know, while they're driving home and very deep in thought or, you know, there's not really as time where they are trying to reflect on what's happening now or what just happened and how are we and I responding to that. So I think this idea that, that you have to build in some amount of reflection and not feel guilty about it and understand that that is the true value of all of these other experiences and that if you are not reflecting on your experiences and where the organization's going, then you are really underserving the organization. And with that, I'm out.

So the. Thank you, Joe. The folks that I work with, so many of them, they think their job is to fill their calendar, come to work early or have a meeting, seven to eight, another one, eight to eight, 38, 30 to nine, all day long. It's not this. It's just a never ending movement in the day from one set of interactions to another. And what Joe said, I urge you that are listening. If there's one thing I would take away from this personally, I have to continue to discipline myself to reflect. That's where the development of practical knowledge enters my world. If I don't reflect on things, it was just one more experience. I'm going to say I'm out, but I'm going to do a closing piece. Thank you folks for listening and giving up your most valuable asset of the 21st century. Your time to be with us. I love this one. I got a lot out of it and it's such an honor to work with my two colleagues always. And today was really special because we got a chance to listen to Joe's perspective as a powerful, effective leader. And then he didn't want to talk about that. He wanted to talk about how he helps people in his coaching role. That was his goal. You want to meet them differently, hop on the website. You can have 30 minutes with them. Anytime you want to talk about leadership challenges that you're facing, we will be honored to set up that up that time for you. And that's on us, that is on jlc. So anytime you have some things that are rolling around you'd like to talk to us about, please hop on the site, set up a discovery call. These two folks will be with you whenever you need them. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, being with us, take care. And if you're listening to this in sequence, I hope you had a nice Thanksgiving. And if you hear us before Thanksgiving, Happy holidays. Thank you very much and take care.

Sincerest thanks for listening to this episode of the Everyday Leadership Conversations podcast. The Jorgensen Learning center offers a variety of programs for individuals and organizations to enhance their communication and leadership leadership skills. To find out more about programs and upcoming webinars, check out our events page@gojlc.com.