Leader to Leader: Lean Six Sigma with Jim Solberg

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for being with us today. Pretty excited about today's session. We've been talking with Jim Solberg and I know you've gotten to know him a little bit through the different queries that we had, provocations that were used, and the enjoyable way he talks about leading. This is our leader to leader series. And this is, I hope not forever, but certainly for now it's our last installment of this section. I will probably bother Jim to come on again about some other things that are going on in our world, but that's at a later date as we set the stage for today. You know Colleen Sullivan, who is up there on our screen with us today. She is the chief operating officer for jlc, the Jorgensen Learning Center. And this is a JLC Media broadcast. Jim is gonna. You're gonna learn more about Jim today. You have an opportunity to talk about something wonderful that happened to him during his career. But before we do, Jim had a final thought about getting beyond micromanaging. And I thought this would be a perfect opportunity to segue from the last session, which was really all about that. How to learn enough about what it means to lead, to step away from the internal need, which I certainly had to micromanage. So, Jim, without any further ado, here's Jim Solberg. Tell us a little bit about those final thoughts you had about getting beyond micromanaging.

Okay, so when we talked the other day, we were talking about doing things, being focused on the business, having a plan, and all of that sounds kind of, kind of soft. And then getting out of micromanaging, going to a higher level again, it all sounds easy and stuff like that, but one of the mistakes that can be made when you, you know, you're into it, you're doing your thing, you're working on details that you know intimately in your learning, micromanaging stage of your career. And you get into a situation where you're now managing things that exceed your day to day capability. You have to get out of micromanaging. You can fall into a trap, and that's micromanaging at a higher level. So that you start to think, okay, well all I need to do is follow the numbers and the finance, and I don't have to pay attention to the processes that underlie it. And you lose contact. And so you divorce yourself from the things that you do and you get into things that you think you can manage that will make things happen. There's not always a direct linkage. And the unique thing about working in lean and moving out of micromanagement is that you still have to pay attention to all those details. So there are at the stages of the organization where people are really knowledgeable about what they do, they need to have a plan, guidance and things like that to keep them together, to keep the business alive while you drive results. So just looking at high level things or detaching yourself or at the worst point alienating your employees and disengaging them from working on the kinds of things that you've established or you want to establish for your customer and the processes in your business and you can ruin it if you back out and get to be a high level micromanager.

So my picture is somebody with lots of gray hair and a big beard sitting there contemplating leadership and acting as though the things that everybody's doing out there really don't touch me because I'm leading. And what I heard you say, if I got you right, is that you cannot divorce yourself from the day to day work that needs to happen as you're trying to establish a culture that's interested in lean and interested in using a six Sigma process to meet customer expectations. Did I get you right, Jim?

I think so, yeah. Anything that has a way of focusing on the business is very, very important. And you can focus on the business at a higher level as long as you keep the processes and the plan in place while you're doing that, because you need the support of the people that are working in the organization all the time. Lots more brain there than in your head.

Yeah, yeah, I really like that. I'm going to let Colleen talk about what she's hearing too. We're working on a piece that came out just in this month's Harvard Business Review and it said in the ability or the time to try and create transformation, we're trying desperately to make sure that we sustain the relationships among the leadership team that focus on getting the work done. So, Colleen, talk a little bit about what you're hearing from Jim about making sure that when we step into this world of leadership and we fall in love with leadership, we don't lose sight of the day to day operations that are intended to produce whatever the customer is interested in. I think that was really a great point that Jim made. What are you thinking, Colleen?

Yeah, well, I really like that because it's. How can I even further kind of define micromanaging and gave that as an example of sometimes that we do. We say, well, okay, fine, you told me not to micromanage then. Now I'm going to lay back and I'm going to look more at the strategic vision and I'm just going to let everybody kind of figure it out. So it's almost like the opposite. Right. And we don't. What I heard him say is that is also an issue because you want to ensure that you are supporting your team and their day to day operations. So they do have an understanding. And we talked about metrics and we've talked about expectations and the outputs. So how can we do both simultaneously? And that looks and feels different than micromanaging. And so what I heard was what really resonated with me is you don't want to swing the pendulum to the other side and go, well, I'm leading everybody, so I'm going to let them figure it out. You really want to ensure you are developing that common understanding of what it is you're trying to accomplish strategically as well as the day to day operations.

I like that there's somewhat of a sweet spot here between focusing on that strategic vision, but making sure I'm here to broker the necessary resources to, to enable the day to day work to go forward. Jim, are we getting you right on this?

Yeah. One other thing I'd like to add is that you have a different role in this leadership level. Let's call it a leadership level.

Sure.

And so you have to move up and down that scale as you work with the issues and the problems and the people. And if you're on the floor of a plant, you're in the detail of, you know, immediate problem solving and so on and so forth. If you're in a, in a meeting with your direct reports, you're going to be talking about how do we link, you know, the hierarchy of running a business. And I've got one of my little charts here. But you know, the vision, the principles for doing business, your strategy, then your tactics. You have to move up and down this scale of focus from, from being sky high to minute detail, depending on who you're dealing with, how you want the outcome to be. I mean, you could be solving a strategic issue or you could be solving a tactical issue in the same day, 10 minutes apart, an hour apart or whatever. And you have to be very flexible in your leadership style to be able to not disengage people. So you know, if you, the high level, and I always like to pick on the finance guys because they picked on me, you know, you start to talk only about the high level numbers and then people say, well, I can't affect that. So yeah, I'll just, you know, I'll just do what I was doing yesterday because I don't have to participate, because that doesn't bother me or affect me. And it really does.

In a moment, I'm going to ask Jim to talk about an award that he received. And in my experience with other people who have received this award, it's a very, very prestigious award called the Shingo Award. Jim and I, when we first started talking about what I did, this is years and years ago, and what he did when he worked with Ford Manufacturing, I talked about the fact that systems thinking enables us to see the interdependencies and interconnectedness of the different areas that live under my leadership purview. And they represent a whole bunch of feedback loops. And if we're not careful, then we don't really get that this is such a big deal. I will end up allowing those silos to function without ever recognizing how they are connected and how their behavior interdependently affects the outcome of all the other entities that are out there working. So, Jim, this was beautiful, frankly, in the way you laid that out. And you also made a list of some things, a list of the things you think about as a leader. Can you state them again in the.

Categories of things that we looked at in Lean Manufacturing? And we set this up as how we communicate all the time. Every meeting had the same structure. When we met with our organization, it was safety, quality, productivity, cost, participation, and environment. And every meeting had a category for those. And we always started our meetings in a plant, actually everywhere, talking about safety. What's more important than the people that you work with? And then you talk about quality, because that is the thing that the customers demand. And then productivity. We need to stay in business. We need to be efficient. We need to have the low cost. And this was part of my conversation. Sometimes when I would be in a plan, I would sit down with the bargaining committee and the union leaders and talk about basic business 101. I need to have the lowest cost product at the highest quality to drive or give the ability to the rest of the company to have discretionary monies to add for marketing or new product or product development. I can't be wasting money because I'm lazy or my organization is lazy. It always have to have tension in the system. And then, you know, just pure hard cost. We always talked about that. Participation was the morale piece of it. And you throw all the education that you need in order to do everything else. And then we had. We talked about the environment. And selfishly, from a Cost standpoint, that's cost of energy, but it also flows into how efficiently you use your resources of any category. And so these all blend together. You can't disengage one. You have to keep them all in mind. And we structured our business meetings in that category. And if the president of the company was going to visit a plant, that was the format for our business. And it links all this stuff. And you drive this with your management responsibility. So part of you is a manager, part of you is a leader. And you have to pay attention to all these details all the time, to varying degrees, depending on who you're dealing with and what kind of problems you run into. And then on the other side of your brain, you have to look at the results. And that's your leadership. Piece of it is how is the information flowing to you? What are you doing with that information? And how do you then take that information and adjust how you're managing? Because we evolved through our careers, fallen into this, well, managers are the best thing in the world, blah, blah, blah. And then you go to the next leadership conference and it's, well, all you need is leadership. You don't have to do anything, just be a leader. And people have developed whole careers on keeping those things separate and single, and it doesn't work. How do you blend that over time? And the concept that we used in our version of Lean manufacturing was it encompasses those six things all the time, every time, and with a direct focus. So it wasn't like I showed up once a month and we did this. We had weekly reviews, just 15 minutes of plant talking about results. What did we do wrong last week? What can we do to correct it this week? Do we need extra resources, overtime, visits from experts, whatever? And so it's a constant focus on this, and that drives the expectations of the organization, makes things happen, and externally to that, it drives your relationship with the other pieces of your business. So naturally you encompass the customer, but manufacturing is the customer of engineering. And that would. It's just kind of a segue into what we were going to talk about, which is how do I manage Lean and Six Sigma together, separately, independently, mixed, and so on and so forth. And if I'm going to have an integrated manufacturing process, then maybe my design needs to be integrated with that as well. And if you go back in history and our manufacturing, I have machines that have certain capabilities because that was the best machine that was available at the time, let's say, or best machine we could afford. So you could only build things to certain tolerances and yet you've got a design engineer in another part of your big company saying, well, I'm going to design this, and if you could only make it the way I designed it, it would be perfect. Well, maybe I can't because I don't have the right tooling. And when we took lean manufacturing on and did it seriously, we then realized there's more to the total lean how you manage your business than there is to just keeping it inside the four walls of a factory or manufacturing. And there's a lot of history about how things improved over the years. And if we all look back at the automotive industry, it improved drastically in the 90s. And that was really historically the integration of computers into the whole business. And so the computer math data that you develop off of a clay, that you don't need a clay now because you can do it virtual reality. That same computer data can be transferred to how to cut your dies, how to make your tools, and so on and so forth. So I don't lose anything in translation that affects quality, parts fit. And so then you get into this further step that I alluded to is, well, what if they design it to the tolerance that the customer needs? And what if I can make it to that same tolerance because I understand what they need? I can buy different tools or better tools, or the technology has changed, so on, so forth. And so in the 90s and the early 2000s, that kind of revolution was happening in the industry. And so you were getting a totally reliable product. And if you go back and think about the puddles of oil you used to see in your driveway in the 60s and 70s, doesn't happen anymore because the parts are integrated, the processes that are integrated, and the design is integrated. And Six Sigma was a tool that really drove through the whole system and linked the data so that people could understand what was really happening. I didn't have an independent view of here's design, here's manufacturing. You can never design what I need. And the design engineer said, you can't make what I design. So on and so forth. We still have the disconnect in manufacturing. We jokingly said, I can only make what you can't sell. Talking to the marketing and salespeople that still exists, but, you know, the customer interferes with plants made three and four years ago, but working on that.

So I really liked a few, a lot of. I like everything you're talking about. I want to hold you for a moment to a story that was given to me when I was studying systems at a University in the Northeast. And it was a big systems conference. And I want you to, if you would, Jim, apply Lean and Six Sigma to this story. Harley Davidson is a very wonderful company, still in business, still a very wonderful company. And when they would ship their brand new motorcycles to the dealer, they sent along with the bikes a set of instructions. And in that set of instructions it was how to display the bike, how to make it look peeling, etc. But they also included in their instructions how to put paper underneath the bikes at night because the bikes would always leak oil. Eventually they solved that problem. They did not have to include that in their recommendations about how you display the bike. Talk to us about how Lean and Six Sigma was integrated by Harley in order to get that to end. And I do think you're right. The evolution of the computer business and it in general helped them do that. Talk about that a little bit from a Lean and Six Sigma standpoint.

Well, you know, you can gather Six Sigma is a, is a, is a tool that helps you gather information about whatever needs to be gathered. And so it has to have a plan that has to be focused on the highest level. And if you look at a problem like that, and you know, automotive engines had that same problem, what are the factors, what can you measure that tells you there could be a problem in the future? And of course, they never leak when you make them because the sealer that you put between the pan and the machining, the bottom of the block is always good. Time, temperature, lots of things affect that. So if you can go in and take the data on the design, the capability of the design, the stamping of oil pan cover is never, it's a different process. So it's never going to be as accurate as machining in terms of the surface. So we put a silicone ish, I don't really know exactly the product, but something squishy between the block and the pan to seal it, time and temperature take care of that, to erode it, so on and so forth. So go back, gather the data. Six Sigma can tell you on how smooth is the surface. You're going to seal the stamping and the block.

Love it.

Compare those data, that data to each other. Theoretically, if they had the same coefficients of expansion, you know, all kinds of engineering issues, you wouldn't need a sealant. But that's not life. Time, temperature, so on and so forth. So if you have the data in front of you, you know that you can either solve it by machining smoother, stamping it better, changing materials, that Starts to give you ideas of how to increase or decrease the tolerances in that marriage of machining to stamping. And it also drive you to investigate the efficiency of different seals. And applied hand cut seals were the deal in the olden days and 50 years ago in engines, cork seals don't last new material. So the data from Six Sigma can lead you to ask questions and come up with solutions to the problem. And then the way that fits into Lean is there's always a problem with something. Nothing's ever perfect. What would you look at in investigating a problem? Part of Lean is having teams meet and talk. I've got a problem. I need help solving this problem. Bring in an expert in Six Sigma, a black belt or something like that to help you focus on the problem, define the problem. Because sometimes the people who have problems don't have the technical wherewithal to isolate a particular category, defect or whatever. So you've got this Six Sigma problem solving thing. And yet it gathers data. There's experts that can figure out your upper, lower control limits and all this other stuff. But it's a problem solving mentality that can be pervaded throughout your entire cycle of whatever you touch. And the more you embrace that, the more problems you fix and the smoother your operation gets. Smoother your operation gets, the more problems you solve, the fewer issues you have. Gives you more time to work on other things, improving, so on and so forth. So there are separate issues. Six Sigma is from the black belt's point of view, it's how do I crunch numbers to do this? But it's also at a higher level than solving problems then incorporating problems. And Lean manufacturing offers you the opportunity to have great communication with the people who know more than you do that touch the product, build on that data. It comes back up into the business cycle to say, well, I've lost efficiency or I've lost customers because of quality. Those two things then can help focus and isolate on issues that improve the customer experience.

I thought so. Excellent. I'm going to go to Colleen right away. But notice the gang that are listening. You can create a bell curve about. This is the range in which we, we produce something, right? And I love that Jim said that engineering has manufacturing as a customer. So manufacturing, the customer may say, no, the tolerances are too big. We have to shrink them. We have to shrink the upper and lower control limit. And the data are available so people can recognize if we shrink them. This is the kind of product that we in manufacturing can produce. That should meet another Six Sigma expectation, what the customer really wants. So, Jim, I thought that was magnificent. Colleen, how about you? What resonated with you in that?

Yeah, well, several things resonated. I think one of the things that I really like where you talked about Lean specifically is that's where you ask these quality questions, where you. It's an opportunity to meet with teams, to surface what, what some of those issues might be and ways to really think about how they might be addressed. And I really liked earlier how, Jim, how you offered when you met, you were very consistently focused and intentional when you held those meetings. And they had a very similar structure and they went through those five very specific areas of focus, of course, beginning with safety. I just wanted to. What really resonated with me is it's not just a once a month conversation that you're focused on engagement, that you're focused on environment, that you're focused on safety. It is consistently having these conversations that are focused on all of those elements. And so I think that in and of itself really helps everyone throughout the system understand how their day to day fits in. And then once again, that engagement piece, Jim, is money. Because if I'm sitting over here going, well, that's not my swim lane, I don't affect that. I mean, I'm not in the machinist part at all. If people don't understand the interdependencies, then they won't take on that. It is everyone's responsibility to be engaged and to be as efficient and as effective as we possibly can.

Jim, did we get you right?

Yeah, I think you did. I wanted to mention another thing that enables the marriage of Six Sigma and Lean. And we talk in our Lean conversations and about the conditions for success. And so three big things always pop up in the conversation. So standardized work do things the same each time. And that has marvelous benefits for manufacturing cost in terms of reliability, how things go together, eliminating errors. And there are subsets of that. About having workplace defined, the tool goes here when it's not used, not over there. You always do it the same way. But standardized work, having reliable equipment, so the equipment you use does it the same way each time. And having synchronous material flow. So we're always working. It's not like here's a box of widgets and big and small widgets, put them together and then you wait, I've got synchronous flow, standardized work and reliable equipment. It makes it so easy for them to get a black belt in to look at an issue that you're having. Because the variability outside of the design or other conditions are controlled and problems are easier to solve in that environment. You can focus on them quickly, resolve them quickly. Sometimes. Sometimes it takes a design change that takes a longer time. Sometimes it takes the next product that would have different tooling or whatever, but at least you know how to deal with that. So Lean manufacturing provides a stable work environment for Six Sigma to be really effective.

So, ladies and gentlemen, those of you that are listening, you probably have been on an airplane sometime pre Covid or even now during COVID to go somewhere. And these practices of Lean and Six Sigma are all over that. Because the airline industry was one of the first to say, we wish to be a high reliability organization. And it all comes through standards. What are the standards that make me as a pilot, be able to land the plane safely and make sure the customers that are in the plane with me are safe? This is so interesting because over the years, most airplanes are supposed to. They're intended to land on centerline, and for a long time they landed a little bit left, a little bit right, maybe more than a little bit left and a little bit right. And they need little A to build reliable methodologies and standards to bring that inside the expected variation, which is the Six Sigma expected variation. These are the lower and higher endpoints that we will accept. Jim has articulated that just beautifully. There are many other organizations, Colleen and I work every week in, health organizations. And the way they standardize where they put things, how they treat a patient, how they bring the patient to resolution, all of those things are part of this same conversation about Lean and Six Sigma. And there are people that can be hired to help you with your processes so that you stay inside the expected limits. And if you've ever had an operation or been in a. In the hospital for an emergency, or you had a tooth pulled, same game applies to all those spaces. Jim, before you go, though, I want you to tell the audience about something that I just think is marvelous and why I hope everybody, I think they already love you just listening to you talk about your work. But you were a Shingo award winner. Tell us about that.

Well, the whole system that we're talking about in terms of how we managed Lean was, we called it the role triangle. So typically, your organization chart is you got someone at the top, vast amount of activity, people at the bottom of the chart. And the focus we wanted to implement Lean was the person who knows more about what's going on is the person that touches the product. So we turn the organization triangle upside down instead of the guy at the peak of the triangle being smarter than you are, knowing more than you do, so on and so forth. Your role becomes how do I provide the resources to better do my business? So I'm a resource provider, not do as I say because I've been here longer than you have. And you develop that not only in an attitude of how do I help the business run, but then we fill in the difference between being responsible for the organization and getting the results from the organization by defining your vision, your principles, your strategy, your tactics, the conditions for success that I just enumerated, and then the things that we're going to focus on. And in any organization, you're going to get corporate directives. And one of the things that we weren't particularly enamored with was having to link all our activities in in a like manner to get the same results. So the HR people came up and wanted to deploy policy deployment. Well, to manufacturing. That's a foreign word, just like kaizen or anything else that came out of the Japanese lean manufacturing learning. And with our integrated role triangle focus, we were able to take policy deployment, which is a foreign language, to manufacturing, or kaizen, which is truly a foreign language, but all it means is process improvement. We were able to incorporate those things and in the way we did it and broke it down. Performance reviews happen every year. They're mandatory, they're required, but they're also needed. And having a need for performance reviews is probably the least interesting thing to anybody in an organization. There I've got to do it. So, you know, tell me 10 things you did this year and we'll just. I'll sign it. Well, if. If I had policy deployment as an objective dictated by the corporation, what do I do with it? In our six conditions of success, we had the participation in morale area. What if we aligned our goals top to bottom? Now my goal as a manufacturing manager is going to be different than your goal working in manufacturing, but I still have a concern for my participation in my morale. So define it at your level. I'll define it at my level. This linkage on safety and quality and productivity, cost participation and environment was all. It's just another way of describing policy deployment without confusing someone with HR said we had to do policy deployment, and I really don't know what that is, but I'll just sign your proposal performance review and that's fine. You don't do that. How do I incorporate it to make my business better? And I'm retired now, so I can say there were some things I didn't do because I didn't think they made my business better. But if there was merit in them, how do I fit them into my six categories? Every person in the organization only had six items in their performance review, Safety, quality, productivity, cost participation environment. If there was something, like I said, like policy deployment, that's outside, that doesn't sound like it. We figured out a way to either incorporate it because it helped us or discard it because it didn't. Again, you link the organization, that concept of linking lean manufacturing to managing lean manufacturing was the reason for the shingle price.

That's great. So Jim's incredible expertise in this area leads me to just say one thing to those of you that are listening. Where is quality created at the last point that the system touches the customer? And did you notice that Jim said sometimes the customers are internal, Sometimes the design group is working to enable the manufacturing group, so the customer shifts inside of an organization as parents and caregivers. It's the last point that we touch our kids, no matter how old they are. It is in a school district. It is the last point that the system touches the kid in the classroom. In a hospital, it's the last point that the system touches the patient. This is a very important piece as you're listening to Jim say it. We got that Shingle award because we were interested in the last point that the system touched the customer, the productivity of an entity that satisfied the customer. This is probably one of the best discussions around quality and lean I've heard in a while, including Six Sigma. So we kind of have a sense of how Six Sigma helps us. It bounds us in a way. And at the same time, Jim hit a huge piece from the work that Colleen does daily. I need to have a personal vision of success and leadership and management should match that personal vision of success with the strategic vision of success that the entity has. Jim, I can't tell you how grateful Colleen and I, and I'm sure the listeners are for you being involved in this, but I'm going to get you two to check out. And Jim, when you talk about things, I think stuff resonates with you. Oh, I should have said that. Or this was interesting. I didn't add this piece, so I'm going to get you to do that. But, Colleen, from your standard, from listening to this conversation, what really resonated most with you? This was a great chat.

You know, several things did. But I think one of the things that really stands out to me is when Jim, when you talked about managing and Leading. And he really couched that in meeting people where they are. So all throughout the day, whether you're focused on the tactical execution piece or the strategic vision, or talking about the evidence of success or providing a story behind some of the data that's surfacing, you really talked about being agile in your leadership approach. And I think that that was really, really key. It really resonated because you can't just walk in going, I'm going to lead them and they're going to follow. It was really that sense of how can I be very, very agile in each conversation and how I approach it so I can truly, truly move entire system towards what it is we're trying to accomplish.

That's beautiful. Jim, how about you? What kind of like while this was really big, I brought it up and it kind of stuck with me or something that Colleen said, do a little checkout for it. What resonated most for you in this conversation today?

Well, you, you talked a little bit today about jet engines or jet. Not jet engines, but airplanes. Airplanes and Harley Davidson. I was lucky enough to participate in having Harley Davidson come into one of my engine plants and look at our lean manufacturing. And then later we sent some of our engineers, manufacturing engineers to their engine plant in Milwaukee to help them with lean manufacturing to improve the conditions that they were running into. And one of them was leaks because they had inventory on the floor that wasn't, it was too much inventory. They weren't doing continuous flow. And we helped them do that. We also went to ge, to their jet engine plant in Cincinnati and we went through there, never went to the floor of their plant. We went into a conference room and talked about how we manage lean manufacturing and how it integrates into Six Sigma. So there's all kinds of learning opportunities here. And I guess the thing that I would like people to remember is that when I first started talking to groups outside of my own about how to get results, because eventually in an organization, if you're moderately successful, you get tapped for extra things. Like I was on the health care committee for union approved drugs and prescriptions and stuff like that, you know, way outside my expertise. But you start to get into these other organizations. I talked to Purchasing about the balance between managing and leading. That was one of the first talks I ever gave and it was before I was involved in lean manufacturing to any extensive degree. But life is a balance, working as a balance. Results are a balance about focusing on what needs to happen, not what you want to do. Look, listen and help.

That's great. So thank you, Jim. We are. Colleen and I are so grateful. I know the listeners are too. You and Colleen just made me think of something. I let it go after Colleen said said something and then you just did it again. So people confuse Charles Darwin's work a little bit. Survival of the fittest in our very Western American world, that would be the survival of John Wayne. Or pick any hero today that's out there that you can identify from the story. Whatever is viewed as the hero tends to be very strong. Right. Very strong. Very like the fittest is the strongest, has the most ability to beat up people.

Yeah.

And the truth in Darwin's work was that it was how can I adapt? Adaptability is everything. The species survives through adaptability. Leaders, managers who live in that sweet spot, they survive through adaptability. Those of you that are listening to us today, we hope that you give us a ring. And if you'd like to talk more about trust, leadership, sweet spot management, leading, how do we actually think about lean in ways that make sense to me in my day to day work. It doesn't really matter what industry you're in or if you're just thinking about yourself as a family member. These practices, all of these practices from JLC actually work nicely in those spaces. Thank you for being with us. Please go to gojlc.com for more information about us and write us a note if you'd like to chat with us. We do offer a free on us discovery call 30 minute discovery call if you'd like to think about wow. How might JLC help me in my practices in whatever, whatever industry, organization or home environment that you're dealing with right now? Thank you for listening. And if you're listening through the holidays, happy holidays. Thanks everyone.

Sincerest thanks for listening to this episode of the Everyday Leadership Conversations podcast. The Jorgensen Learning center offers a variety of programs for individuals and organizations to enhance their communication and leadership skills. To find out more about programs and upcoming webinars, check out our events page@gojlc.com.