Leader to Leader: Von Washington

Foreign.

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for being with us today, wherever you are. On your way to work at the gym and just stopping to listen for a couple of minutes about leader to leader conversations. We're really lucky to have two people who are in leadership roles currently. Colleen Sullivan is the chief operating officer of a small company, but a company that's pretty busy. And Vaughn has a big time leadership role that I'm going to let both of them tell you a little bit about as we start the podcast and then I will set the stage for the conversation. So, Colleen, who are you and what leadership role are you playing right now and what's going on with you?

Sure, great question. So I have the privilege of really working with a team of incredible leaders. Each one has been an executive and been in an executive role. And so what I do is I just really kind of create opportunities for us to collaborate, create opportunities and for us to develop a clear vision of what it is success looks like for our organization. And I'm just one small little piece of all of really the other teammates which really bring such depth of knowledge and understanding forward. So that's my honor of what I get to do every week.

That's beautiful. And I'm going to ask Vaughn to pick up on a word that the three of us already spoken about. Sometimes, Vaughn, when we say executive, a school person doesn't hear that in the same way. Talk to us about that first and then I'm going to ask you to tell us a little bit about what you're up to right now.

Sounds good. And hello, it's good to see both of you. When using the term executive. And as a high school principal, basketball coach, librarian, many of the roles I played over the 22 year career I had in public education, the term executive never really resonated, not even as a principal, not even in higher leadership roles. Executive seemed to be reserved for those in the private sector. It seemed to be reserved for those that were making decisions about money or making decisions about people and or objects they were selling. But it seemed like there was a difference between an executive table and a table of educators coming together. Now none is more important than the other by far. And the individuals that are making decisions on behalf of children and investing in human capital could be said and argued that they're making the most important decisions beyond any executive that is making decisions out there. Now that could be debated for sure, but coming from an education standpoint, these folks are going to be the next executives, if you will, or the next administrators. School administrators and teachers and support staff. So when we use that term many times in education, it falls kind of by the wayside when trying to refer to it. So you're trying to invite some executives to a room, don't be surprised if you don't get educators.

That's really wonderful. And the sensibility that the work that educators do is. And they'll define this many different ways. The way I've heard it defined most commonly over the last 20 something years is how do we provide the necessary services so that each kid is socially, emotionally and academically literate enough to take the next step. And all too often we kind of miss that little piece. So if you're out there and you're tuned in, you say, oh no, I'm an assistant principal in a high school or middle school or elementary. Stick around. This is for all of us. We are all part of the same game of taking care of people in our career, taking care of people in our care. And I love that Simon Sinek says that regularly in his work when he's talking about leadership. I think that the two people online with me right now epitomize that notion. So with that said, what are you up to right now, Vaughn? So they get a sense of what you're doing with yourself every day.

Well, over the past eight years, I've been fortunate to be the executive director for the Kalamazoo Promise. The Kalamazoo Promise is the most prolific scholarship and on record that we know of, the most generous scholarship providing college tuition and or vocational education, tech training, certificate training to all students who graduate from the Kalamazoo public schools. And it's easy enough to kind of look up the Kalamazoo Promise. It's considered to be the first scholarship ever known of its kind, where anonymous donors are providing the money for these students. And to date, I've been. I've had the opportunity to represent the organization that has paid over $150 million to students and their tuition and mandatory fees to schools in Michigan. So there's very few requirements, but one of them is that students attend one of the colleges and universities in Michigan. So it's fantastic work. It allows me to take the work I did in K12 education, bring that over here, have an understanding of what students may be feeling as they go into a scholarship, and knowing that a scholarship is not an end all, be all, it is a major barrier removed. But for students who had challenges the day before they graduated and got the scholarship, those challenges continue the day after. And so I get to leverage this scholarship against community assets to try to see if we can all fill in the gaps of those other barriers.

Now, I love it. And I also would like to one time, Vaughn, have the three of us talk a little bit about what happens in a community when the community starts to get anxious that a kid is doing so well they'll leave the community. And so often they don't even realize that they're holding kids back by loving them so much that they don't want them to leave. But that, I think, is another version of our conversation going forward.

Absolutely.

So today, Colleen and Vaughn are going to talk with each other, and I'm simply going to mostly listen. I might add a word or two on occasion, or get one of those guitars off the wall and play a note in the middle of our talk today. But today we're going to talk about something that Colleen and I have been working on diligently for a long time. I'm going to say intensely for the last few weeks, and it has to do with standards. So when I prepared for this conversation with Vaughn, I said, vaughn, if you said, right, top of your head, what are a couple of things that you would say were your standards, your personal standards about how you intended to work as a leader? Now, he did pivot to the high school, but my suspicion is that he will continue to behave around those couple of standards that we talked about. And we just picked two for time's sake, there's more. And those of you that are listening expect that there is more, even for yourselves. And you might say, well, those are not my top two. That's great. We're going to explore the top two that Vaughn picked up on. We're going to develop a common understanding about what it looks like in practice. So that each of you, should you choose one of these two standards or one of your own, you'd be able to translate that into, once you understand it, how do I behave it? I think this is a trite statement, but one that has a lot of impact for me. Values can be written down and have no power until you behave the value. So today we're going to talk about a couple of those big standards, values that that man holds close to his heart. And I hope that each of you listen to look for a way you can connect to your own standards, your own values. Colleen, what are you hearing me say and what are you thinking right now?

I'm hearing that we're going to have a conversation today about values and standards. Specifically, you kind of prep Vaughn and asked him to Think about what are two values that he holds and that he demonstrates in his daily practice. And you're encouraging our listeners to think about those two. And what I heard is a value is something we state that is important to us and a standard is what we do. So how do we ensure that those are in alignment? So as we say, we're walking the talk and I'm not just talking about integrity or whatever a. A value is to me that I hold, but it doesn't. If it's not demonstrated in the way I behave and my actions and my thoughts and my interactions, then really what is it? So it's really thinking about the value and the practical application piece.

Yeah. What am I thinking? Feeling, acting. Vaughn, did you hear something more or different?

No, I heard that. And the more I listen to it and the way that Colleen brings that to light, what she heard, I think of the term non negotiable. Right. So we all have something that we're wired to be thinking and doing all the time. No matter who we come in contact with, no matter how much we may want to change it, no matter how much it could be in conflict with friends, family and loved ones. We have these things that are these standards or these things that are non negotiable, whether we've determined it or not is just the way it's going to operate. And so when I think about the two things we're going to discuss today, Ray, that you kind of brought out, and I know it was a quick conversation, but I think about these two things. These are things that no matter where I went, grocery store, home, work, whatever, have to be in place in some kind of way for me to think that this world, the environment that we're working in, is conducive for people to grow and to move forward in. So these, these are kind of these non negotiable things that we kind of have, whether we've labeled them or not.

That's great. I had one of those to that end, one of those conversations today with one of my kids. And my kids are 52 and 50. I have twins that are 52 and another one that's 50.

Wow. Guitars back there?

No older. And my intention is to always behave in a way that is humble and so that I don't show up in knowing. And what happened today, full transparency is. My one son said, you're showing up and knowing a lot with me. And I said, oh, thank you. Tell me more. So it ended up being a really good conversation. And if I didn't hold that particular value, it would have been harder for me to recognize where I was slipping, missing a step or two and not presenting a space for conversation. So really interesting how this conversation about what we believe in and what we behave sometimes aren't the same. So wonderful, wonderful. So great job, you guys, setting up. Those of you that are listening, by the way, that is. I did three things there. If you were practicing the disciplines, the fundamentals of conversational leadership, okay, I set the stage with three things. Why are we talking about this? What do we intend that you can understand as a result of this conversation? And what might each of you do at the end? By the way, that message is for me, because the first person I lead is me. I have to work on me first. I love working with other people, but if I'm not modeling, working on me, I end up in a strange place. So with that said, and with this opening that they did just so beautifully, Vaughn, the first one that you laid on the table was equity. So I want you to talk through equity and what it looked like in practice. And Colleen, I want you to be ready to go right in here and say, wow, tell me more about. Or. I don't understand this. The typical provocations that we use in our little company. So, my brother, talk with me a little bit about that very first fundamental value that you brought into the space.

Hey, thank you, Ray. And equity jumps right out right now. You know, it may be 10 years ago, it didn't. It was always a part of it, but it may not have been the word that I would have used. It's definitely something that is being considered in much greater proportion today than it has for many folks that have been marginalized and. Or just left out of the conversation. But equity jumps out because, I mean, we have to be thinking about everyone's experience. There's just no way around it. It is very difficult. We were working with our team this morning, and we're getting into the season where people like to celebrate lots of holidays and family and stuff like that. And we could easily jump off and feel like everybody feels the same way we do. Everybody loves the snow. It snowed yesterday. Everybody loves the snow. I don't love the snow. But we have to be concerned. Now, that doesn't mean that we then therefore can't do anything because some people will go to the other side. All right, shut it all down. We won't give nobody nothing. And then nobody can be mad, right? And you go that way. Well, you can't grow that way. You don't Help people that way. You're not investing and building on human capital. You have to be concerned with it. And to do that, as you mentioned, you've got to work on you. So then you have ways to respond when either there are forms of criticism that you're not. You mentioned that your son reminded you you're showing up and knowing, well, instead of getting defensive, you say, okay, you know, you're hearing me. I'm going to take that feedback and I'm going to go forward. Now, one thing you have with your son that's very critical in that situation is trust. So in a lot of situations, when we're trying to get to points where we're trying to have equitable conversations, we're trying to make sure our workplaces and our schools have equity for those who are in them. If the trust is very low, it's very hard to accept criticism and or feedback and it's very hard to move forward. But I suggest to everyone that's coming into the workplace, whether you're in it, whether you're new coming to it, whether you're in college, whoever it is listening that you want to get a handle on who you are and how you feel about everyone else getting what they need. And the last thing I'll say about that is one of the way, one of the reasons it's hard for some people to come around to this thought that everybody getting what they need is good and important, is when you yourself feel like for someone else to gain, you have to lose. And that is one of the most opposing forces to these conversations of equity. Because if there's 10 people in the room and you say, hey, we want to become more diverse, well, those 10 people in the room, some of them are thinking to do that somebody has to leave, when actually we can be working on bringing in more people in that space. So equity is non negotiable for me now, but even before I articulated it 10, 12 years ago, it always has been for me. Always been worried about the student in the corner, always been worried about the student that didn't have lotion and their skin was ashy because that was me. I've always been worried about the student that was afraid to do other things in front of other students because of the reaction that they may have. And so I always wanted to try to build a situation that tried to take some of that out of somebody's experience.

That's beautiful. That's gorgeous. Thank you. Colleen, what are you hearing and what are you thinking and feeling right now?

Yeah, I'M hearing that one of your values. Right. Values. Is equity, and that in the past, it might have. It looked different as it came alive in a standard. Right. So you described multiple situations where it was coming alive and in different situations. I think the one thing that's really surfacing for me as you were sharing that bond was meeting people where they are. And really this definition of equity that's different, that comes from a space of growth, that comes from not a fixed mindset, but a growth mindset of helping people understand that there's room in this room and at this table for everyone, and each individual needs different things. So we're not saying that it's all or nothing. So how can we really develop a definition of equity so people don't have this fixed mindset that immediately blocks them from. From listening to learn about other people's perspectives? And so I think that really resonated. And to me, that's almost the standard. Right. What does equity look like in practical application? And I think you did a great job of. It looks like a growth mindset. It looks like when we talk about equity, we are in conversations and we are recognizing that individuals have different needs. And how can we meet everyone's needs and not just the certain individuals, because it's easier or because they're at the front of the line or because they've always been at the table. So how can we really start to shift our thinking around this definition and really start to embrace more of a growth mindset around equity?

So, Colleen, stay with him for a second here. He mentioned the kid standing in the corner or a kid that didn't look exactly like everybody else did in that particular room. Right. And you've had experiences like that in your work just recently, trying to get voices in the room. Talk to us a little bit about. Because at some level, if we do believe in equity, then we believe that all the voices matter, and we need to hear from all the voices. Talk just for a moment, Colleen, about that. And I'm going to pivot back to Vaughn to respond to you.

Well, I think there's something. And it's in the literature, and it talks about connectivity and relevance and this sense of people just want to feel connected to something, whether it's that soccer team, whether it's in their classroom, whether it's within their group of friends. And I think this sense of noticing. Right. Is so critically important. If we say equity is critical and important, I think it's important for us to pause and notice. So when I'm in a Conversation. Do I ensure all voices are heard? What do I personally do when I'm in a meeting to ensure all voices are equally important and voiced at the table? And I think these are simple things with the learning protocols and processes that we're using right now that really can create a space where people feel valued, heard, and connected.

That's beautiful. Vaughn, what are you thinking about that?

I love it. That's what it is. The challenge today is to get to that mindset that you want to care about everyone and then understanding and having the skills to do it. It's not the easiest challenge to take on as a leader. And so you can say, hey, everybody's got a voice here, but the minute people get talking, then we don't. We don't have time for it, or we can't do that. What? That idea, you know, we've always been orange. You want us to be green, you know, so it's with an understanding of how to set it up. So, Ray, you talked about how you set up the conversation today. There's a skill to how you did that you didn't just get on here. There's a skill to doing it, and we have to become more adept at that skill. Or this thought of letting everybody speak will get away from you. This thought of doing that, because people will feel like they have ideas that just don't get captured or that their voice and their opinion just does not matter. When you have to have an understanding on both sides. We're going to enter into this. We're doing it together. Some things may change fast, some things may not change quickly. Some may not change at all. Maybe we do have a good idea and your idea is different, but maybe the good idea works for us in some ways. So it's important that we set that up because I have watched organizations who have decided to take on this mantle of equity inclusion, diversity inclusion, which is the right thing to do, but implemented in the wrong way can take us in a place where people can get hurt feelings and organizations can dismantle. And I mean quickly, quickly. So, you know, faster than bottom line not being met. This. This can dismantle because the culture can then be fully disrupted because people aren't feeling respected. So. So there's a skill to it. And so I appreciated you labeling the three things you did to start this conversation. And we have to continue to learn how to do it. All leaders are not prepared for this. This is one thing that for many of us, you did not get. There was not a class in this back then. There was not a, hey, you know, consider everybody in this. There was an assumption that as an educator, you did that. And there's an assumption, as an educator, you're superhuman. I mean, they all have that assumption. But we didn't get a lot of this. So it's new territory. It's mandatory territory. But it's new.

New and mandatory if we don't think of it that way. So for example, I could say, well, thanks. Thanks a lot, Vaughn. So, Colleen, what are you thinking? You can actually be dismissive and not even mean to be dismissive in a meeting. So if you've noticed those of you that are listening, the heart and soul of the work that we do at JLC has to do with listening in such a way that I work to understand Vaughn's thoughts and then confirm that I got it, and then respond respectfully if I dismiss him or say, yeah, thanks, Vaughn. Anybody else got a nice idea? And how many times have you seen that in the classroom, you know, or nope, that's wrong. Not what were you thinking that brought you to that particular conclusion? This is easily stated. It requires true discipline and it has to be something deeply internalized that has to be part of what you believe about yourself and how you show up in the world. Without that, we kind of drift again to another space. So, Colleen, any further thoughts on. This is beautiful. I want to switch to the other one before we get out of time.

Yeah, I just really like what you surfaced there, Vaughn. In the while you can start with a good intention in an organization, in a school. Woo hoo, man. We recognize diversity and inclusion is important and there's lack of equity in our system and we're going to do something about it. Doesn't necessarily mean that effort will unfold in the way intended. Without some very intentional personal work and developing a common understanding of the way to effectively hold these conversations. Because to your point, when they go sideways, oh man. And I've been in rooms where they went sideways. Hard feelings, dysfunction. Now people are pissed off. And it is the complete opposite of the intended effort. So instead of jumping in, it's really start to plan it. Develop your personal capabilities and your capabilities to hold difficult conversations so you can create that space effectively.

I love it. Love it. Vaughn, what are you thinking?

Just that that's. That's spot on, you know, Once again it is. We need to make sure we're having these conversations, but that work on ourselves is so important because we have to be able to understand it. We've got to be able to defend it. As soon as you say it, someone saying, you know, oh, here we go again. Right. So we have to be able to say it, defend it in a way that makes sense, have emotion. Yes. But have practical application as well. And it can be done extremely well. And for those who are able to provide this to organizations, you know, they're the ones that are getting called a million times. They, you know, they got so much work, they can't do anything. And for others who just come in for a day, leave you and say, good luck and hope you respect everyone, it can be a difficult situation. And being a person of color and being in many rooms where I was the only other, only person of color, wondering if anybody cared that was there and. Or the fact that I was there, if I was the only one, was I some kind of exception to be in the room, or somebody's pick. There's a lot that goes on on both sides. And a lot of times for these conversations in the organization, they look right to the person of color to solve all the issues, to answer all the questions and face off all the naysayers. And we've got to protect for that as well. And That's a whole nother 20 podcast.

Sure. It sends us in a whole different place. Yeah. One of the things that this work enables for me is that I can lean into a difficult and hard conversation knowing I'm not going to solve this problem today all by myself with these two people. But I can learn how I can behave differently when there are conversational opportunities. That's the big stuff. And my God, have I seen that? We need a woman. Woman, Come here, woman. Tell us what we should do because we really want to include the female voice. Or, come here, black guy, tell us what we should do about this, because we need to get someone of color to talk about how. Come on, guys. This is about leaning into a space that all of us are negotiating. Not one of us. We are all negotiating this and making this space for people. And I love that. So that equity isn't just a. We don't have a pep rally for equity. We actually behave it in the hallway. We. We behave it in the classroom. We behave it in the meeting room. That's magnificent. Final thoughts on equity before I switch you to the other one that you mentioned, Vaugh.

So for me, what jumps out is I heard a saying the other day, and I wish. I don't know who to attribute this quote to. Somebody who's listening will. But they said that the minute we believe that equity and inclusion is a People of color problem only is when we're going to fail tremendously because this is an issue for all of us.

Yeah, we, like, lose it in the symbolism rather than the actual performance of what it looks like. When I care about other people and their thinking. Brilliantly stated. Thank you, Colleen. Last thoughts on equity.

No, I just. I like it. It's not a thing where we're talking about it in an esoteric way. It's. It is a way we all behave because we believe it in our hearts.

Yeah. See, the. At some point, those of you that are listening, we have a couple of podcasts on the ladder of inference. How I come to conclusions and how my attitudes, my beliefs, my biases, and my assumptions create a lens that doesn't let information in, that doesn't agree with me. Me. And if we know we're doing this, we have an opportunity to start asking outbound, what am I missing? I heard a lot of great ideas there. Another one that hasn't been stated. Is there anyone that has an idea that we need to hear? And here's one of my favorite ones. What's hard to talk about? What's hard to talk about? All of a sudden, strangely enough, people begin to offer ideas, well, this is hard to talk about. We need you. And then we don't want to kind of push it away and say, let's put it in the park and we'll talk about it later. Right. It has to be something that is either addressed immediately or a promise is made that it will be addressed at the next meeting. So this work is so much about recognizing in me what do I need to do differently. I suppose those of you listening, you got to be loving this one. All right. We're doing a slight shift. Okay. But still the same setup. So the second thing that I really loved and I did my best, Vaughn and I were both high school principals, and respect was important to me. And that was the one that Vaughn laid on the table. And I want him to tell us how he helped those in his care. Not just the kids, the custodians, the bus drivers, the teachers, the people doing secretarial support work. How did you help people learn about. What does respect look like? Not outside our house. In our house. Vaughn, all you.

Well, thank you for that. Because really, coming into the situation, and if you're working in a public school, so many times people are looking for help to come from the outside. Those staff members that are in there, they hear the things, the criticisms that are coming towards public educators right now, the lack of Resources that are coming into the building, all those types of things. And on any given day, there are enough things that you could lean on in a negative manner that could disrupt you from being able to execute your task right from the beginning, right from the minute you walk in the door. So you have to protect for all of those things all the time. So, you know, one of the things we would tell the staff, look, we got to circle the wagons, if you will, that analogy of just coming together because we have what we have and no one's coming from the outside to help us. So what are we going to do to try to make this work? And the example that I think, Ray, I use with you when coming in is people will ask me a lot about, you know, we had some success with the school. You know, we went from a failing school in the state of Michigan to being removed from the failing schools list. You know, all the categories of individuals that were struggling, moving up. We won athletic championships. President Obama came into this. We did a number of things. And people ask, you know, what did you do? And I think they think it's in the paperwork, it's in the details, the policies that we somehow you adjusted the curriculum to meet. Now, it was about respect. So one of the things that I recognized, because we would have people that were called security when I started, so I looked at some different models, especially the college model, and we changed the name of security to campus safety. Now, just hearing the two different things means two different. It's two different things. So security, they're securing something, they're doing something. And we know what we think about that. When you think of campus safety, you think of an overall structure and then people that are in care of taking care of that structure, which means that if you're in that structure, you're in their care, as it was mentioned. So as Simon Sinek talked about, so you're in their career. So now, as a teacher, whom I used to kind of look, you know, if many of the teachers and I asked them, how do you feel about campus safety? Now, these are hourly employees. Many of them are people of color and immediately dismissed as well. They're just friends of the kids. You know, I send a student out of the class that's disrupting my class, and all of a sudden he knows Mr. And Mrs. So and so, and they're talking to him, so on and so forth. So I thought, okay, well, let me go and ask campus safety how they feel about the teacher. And the campus safety says, immediately we handle all the problems that they can't deal with, you know, if it wasn't for us, this place would fall apart. So they've got a feeling about what's going on. Now, I'm not saying who's right or wrong, but one thing I knew immediately, we've got to get these folks together. Because when there are issues that take place, when students do have struggles and frustrations that play themselves out in the classroom, we can't have that. We have to get to a point where we're helping that student and making sure that the others can receive an education throughout the day as well. And the answer is not throw everybody out. I mean, that used to be a day when that was it. You paddle them, you could, you know, do all kinds of stuff. Parents understood. But now, you know, we got to deal with it here and meet people where they are, as Colleen said earlier. So we came together, and I let each other know how they felt about each other. We had a constructive conversation, let each other know how we were dealing with each other, and then we came up with plans of action on how we were going to deal with it together. So the prime example, and I won't make it that long, is every administrator has walkie talkie, and every campus safety person has a walkie talkie in the building. So let's just say there's 25 walkie talkies in the building. The teacher can pick up the phone, hit one button, and a call will go out to all 25 of these walkie talkies. Now, when I first started, that walkie Talkie would ring 12 times before anybody picked it up. Now, you're really not picking it up to call for lunch. You're picking it up because you got an issue. And if it's ringing 25 times, you're feeling disrespected. By the fifth time, because you have the situation you're facing, the people answering the phone are like, oh, here they go again. You know, come calling. They can't deal with so and so. La la la la la. You have that animosity. Once we came to an understanding that each was working and how what looked like a friendship of students in the hallway with campus safety was really a de escalation and a skill that was being applied to a student that was having a severe struggle. And as a building administrator, supporting the staff and saying, look, if you have an issue, if you do these three things, but the student still needs to go from the room, I will not ask you any questions. Having that respect, that phone was picked up first ring Every time, sometimes half a ring, camp safety, these things started going down. We had fights in the numbers of a hundreds go down to 32 by the end of a year. So it was that respect that helped change a culture. Then the students saw that there was a team working together. And then we started to put into some other things to talk about respectful language, language that can be helpful in de escalation and those types of things. But those two groups coming together, campus safety and the faculty with an understanding and a respect for each other. Game changer.

Oh, that's a magnificent story and I love it. And so much of this is about the words we use to describe the situation and your story about going from a truckload of issues and fights and nobody's picking up the walkie or the phone to a handful as time went by. Colleen, what are you thinking about that one? Because I know we see it sometimes not so subtly, but we see it when we're working with teams in private and in the military or public structure.

Sure. I wrote down words matter because I really like that we all hold mental models around what a word means to us. And so I really like Vaughn. How you were when you wanted to develop this sense of trust and respect that you made that choice and recognized that to some people those words were landing on them and they were coming to a different conclusion than one intended, which impacts the environment. And the other thing that really surfaced in me, and you mentioned the ladder of inference, Ray, that was a ladder story and how misunderstandings and assumptions were impacting student safety and the safety on the campus. You had a group of people who thought one thing, right, they were campus security, they were thinking one thing. You had the teachers thinking a complete other thing. There was no common understanding of what was truly going on or an accurate picture of the current reality. They were not really collaborating or co creating effective solutions to impact the school campus environment. And I think about the people we work with. It happens all the time, right. I'm operating on a set of assumptions. Your team's operating on a set and so is Vaughn. And you know what? I'm pissed at them because they're not doing what I think. And it's making it so my team's working harder and screw them. So when I come to the I don't even come to the table, I don't even ask questions. I just hunker down and say I'm doing everything I can in my department. They're not pulling their weight and think about the impact and just what you described it Shifted. Right. You pulled them together, help them say, do you think that to be true, or do you know that what's really going on. Let's get an accurate picture of what's going on. Now. We can co create a way forward that will really have the greatest impact on our schoolhouse.

Yvonne. So Colleen and I just have been playing with this sense for a while. Effective leaders generate and sustain quality relationships. What did you do? You pulled people together in conversation. And the other thing we say all the time is the conversation is the relationship. If I'm not in conversation with you, other than to dial a number or scream for help. Right. And then be angry about the outcome, there's no conversation there. Therefore, no relationship. No relationship, no opportunity to get the results that you want. Vaughn, that story was magnificent. And there's one last piece I'd like you to talk about. By bringing them together, they got to know each other. Conversation is the relationship. And we know this also from the literature. It's hard to trust somebody you don't know. And if you, as the leader, didn't bring them together, they would never get to know one another and therefore couldn't trust each other. Please embellish on that a little bit, because I think you did that all over the campus. Please talk about trust and getting to know one another.

Yeah, we had to get them working together or we were just going to continue to have issues. And that trust had to be developed. Like one of the things that they thought was, every time we look out in the hallway, campus safety, they're on their cell phones, they're on their phone. Well, hell, all of us used our phone to communicate in some kind of way, and they were not going to be any different. You were just having an assumption they were on their phone doing something that didn't apply to work, and they were connecting with each other. Who's on the fourth floor, who's on the third floor was a huge building, thousands of students. So they were connecting in that way. So an opportunity to share what they're thinking and. And also an opportunity for the faculty to say, when I send them out, just looks like you talk to them then, to understand that these folks do have levels of training and understanding in some of the most severe cases of de escalation. So they needed that. And then, Ray, one other thing, and Colleen mentioned it, you mentioned it, that leadership has to look at these pieces and put them in place. I thought if the faculty's feeling this way, maybe the parents and students are too. And so when I asked the students how they felt about them. You know, some students had connection with them, some had no connection. If you never had any trouble in the school, you had no connection. So some didn't know him. So there was a weakness there. And for the parents, they only knew our campus safety staff if their children were having altercations. So we decided to change that. So every year we still, on paper, they may do it online now, but on paper, 10 years ago or so, you had to bring the paper and come register your students at school. There'd be about 15 tables of things for you to do, from parking passes to Registration to school IDs to, you name it. So then we took our campus safety, took them out of their campus traditional campus safety uniform, and they conducted the school registration.

Oh, wow.

Therefore, they came in contact with all students and all families. What happened after that was when a student went home with a frustration. Did you ask Mr. Jackson? You know, they were. They wouldn't call a principal's name sometime or they wouldn't call a teacher's name. They called Mr. So and so that they met at registration or they were called the respect for the individual roles. Now, I tried the best I could to give a good wage to the position. We did make it respectable beyond what it was. Once again, another podcast. But we brought some respectability. But I couldn't make it the greatest wage ever. But the respect went up. We had very little turnover in our campus safety staff and team. That used to be a big issue when it was a very low wage. So there were a couple things that had to go along with it. You give people more respect, then they need more compensation to go along with what appears to be an elevation in responsibility, in appearance and all of that. So we put all those things together and we really felt like that was successful.

Look at the trust game again by asking campus safety folks, don't wear your uniform. Register the parents. I now start meeting parents who I'm probably never going to see that kid for any discipline problem ever. And if you hadn't done that, their aperture, their perspective would have remained very narrow. That was magnificent. And again, ladies and gentlemen that are listening, if you don't know this person, it's hard to trust them. That's why we do these conversations. We could have three talking heads here running a PowerPoint presentation for you. This has been a conversation and the other thing we do is we always check out. So before we end our podcast, and this one went a little longer, but my God, it was good. Let's do a quick little Checkout. What resonated most with you in the conversation today? Vaughn, you start us off because sometimes we remember, we start talking about something and a lot of stuff starts popping up again. What resonated most for you?

Well, mostly that you asked me about two things that were considered to be non negotiables or values or things that just have to take place, and those two come out. And you know that I do like the format because Colleen is extremely profound, an excellent listener, and she extracts those, so it lets you know and hear back what you're saying in confirmation. She's not fully agreeing with everything or, or saying that, but she's extrapolating those points and that gives you good confirmation of what you're doing. So I love the conversation. So that sticks out to me.

Again, beautiful. Colleen, what resonated most with you today?

I think what surfaced with me is, you know, espouse theory and theory and practice, and that comes from Peter Senge. And what I say is, are we eating our own dog food? And I think that when it comes down to it, and I love your story, Vaughn, because it demonstrated that the values that you share and that you talk about, you absolutely backed with your behavior. And so I just think that that is a key, critical element when you're talking about anyone, whether you're in a personal setting and you're talking about, you know, we're coming up to lots of the holiday seasons and conversations with, with your family, your friends, your co workers in a professional setting. The more we can hold that one close to our heart, I think will really enhance the quality of our relationships with, with everyone that we have them with.

That's beautiful, both of you. So then notice, ladies and gentlemen, as they state again what it was that resonated with them and all educators that might be listening. You already know this intuitively. How do you know somebody understands something? They can say it in their own words. If they can't say it in their own words, if they parrot back to you moms and dads, if the kid says, yeah, I heard you, you said this and it's exactly what you said, that means they don't understand it, so you need to do something else quickly. This is such a really useful way to learn together through these very intentional and very disciplined kinds of conversations. Thank you for spending time with us here at JLC Media. If you want to learn more about this or find a way to get to Vaughn or to Colleen, please hop on the site, send us a note, and we'll make sure that somebody gets back to you. We are so grateful, so grateful that you took time to be with us today. Ladies and gentlemen, take care, take care and enjoy your leadership journey. Thank you. Sincerest thanks for listening to this episode of the Everyday Leadership Conversations podcast. The Jorgensen Learning center offers a variety of programs for individuals and organizations to enhance their communication and leadership skills. To find out more about programs and upcoming webinars, check out our events page@gojlc.com.